Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 23 November 2010 18:14, T. J. Brumfield enderand...@gmail.com wrote: There are open software stacks with various CMS tools where you can combine wiki, blog, forum, and FAQ functionality together. A community site could have articles on the front end to help demonstate features, provide tutorials, expose new templates and extensions, etc. Users can provide comments and questions on the articles as well as post in the forums. Duplicate questions are bound to occur in forums. The problem with that is retyping the same solutions time and time again. But if there is an integrated wiki/knowledgebase in the site, then you can link to the solution there. My concern is that many users expect help to be present in the application itself, and not everyone is willing to go and find answers in a community. Could the application itself pull its Help functionality from online resources? That is quite common with Linux applications. Certainly links from the application help to on-line search of discussions etc should be relatively easy. Only draw back I can think of is potentially broken links. One advantage to linking to say a public editable page would be that if you found the help unhelpful but then realised why you could document it for others and eventually the improvements could find their way in to the application help. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:00 AM, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: Only draw back I can think of is potentially broken links. One option to avoid broken links might be linking to the site search tool rather than individual pages, this would ensure all pages can be found even if they are moved, as well as consistency across languages which is the keystone of the Drupal system. Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:02:11 +0100, Alexander Thurgood wrote: Does such a system also prevent false representation, i.e. someone passing themselves off as another member ? With a userid and password combo, this is much harder to do, it seems (notwithstanding one's computer being hacked and one's ID/pwds being stolen) ? Good forums provide the possibility to log in with OpenID, not requiring additional passwords and still providing authentication. I we should have that plugin enabled in our wiki.TDF.org site anyway... Sebastian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 2010-11-23 12:55 PM, Ian Lynch wrote: Since the project is moving to Drupal, it makes sense to use Drupal forums since then there is just one system to manage. Does Drupal Forums allow one to 'subscribe' (get email notifications) to both Main Topics/Sections as well as individual threads? -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 2010-11-23 5:01 PM, Robert Derman wrote: I just have to respond to this, I hate forums or anything else that required the use of PASSWORDS!!! I already have 10 times too many passwords to remember or keep track of and I want absolutely NO more. Frankly I wish the entire computer and software industry would flush the whole idea of passwords down the loo and come up with something else entirely. www.passwordmaker.org Of course it requires Firefox... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: Does Drupal Forums allow one to 'subscribe' (get email notifications) to both Main Topics/Sections as well as individual threads? The Drupal messaging/notification system can provide subscriptions and mail back responses for ANY part of the site. Topics, Sections, Threads, Areas of the site, Even every post across the site in a specific language to go to extremes. If you want a subscription available for something that is not available when the Drupal site goes Beta then you can request it and it will be added easily, but we will try to anticipate all possible use cases. The input and output of the system is fully configurable. You can even get your subscriptions sent to you in Twitter, Facebook or Jabber (Google Chat) messages if you want. Plug and play really. Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Hi Marco, *, M. Fioretti schrieb: [..] as I already said, more than promoting any support mode as the only one, my proposal is more limited to NOT making useless/embarassing the email mode. Right now, the only other proposals that come to my mind to make support as efficient as possible are: - add some problem category field to the form I mention in my article (e.g. My problem is: 1) format compatibility, 2) configuration, 3 macros) - instead of sending an email, that form inside LibO may just query the search engine of the Drupal website. .. and offer one more possibility?: No satisfying answer found? - Ask a question! which is sent to any resource, choosen to give useful answers, in a dedicated fashion and with a dedicated way to reach the requesting person. That might be an instant Email or confirm message containing links to (future) results or emails anouncing each answer by link to a public place - *not with answer inside* to not provocate an unhelpfull reply! my 2¢ Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-24 07:38, Michele Colagrossi a écrit : Hi Mr. Derman, each humans hate passwords :) And who does not have a too easy. I recommend PasswordSafe (or similar) from SourceForge.net. This programs help you to manage your passwords. Ciao Am 24.11.2010 13:06, schrieb Charles Marcus: On 2010-11-23 5:01 PM, Robert Derman wrote: I just have to respond to this, I hate forums or anything else that required the use of PASSWORDS!!! I already have 10 times too many passwords to remember or keep track of and I want absolutely NO more. Frankly I wish the entire computer and software industry would flush the whole idea of passwords down the loo and come up with something else entirely. www.passwordmaker.org Of course it requires Firefox... I also think it is a matter of education. I start teaching kids in grade 4 how to create safer passwords and we do role playing in class to see if we can figure out each others encryption methods. Once these kids reach grade 8 they are more informed on how to create more robust passwords. I'm the tech guy at our school and meet with grades 4-8 twice a year re: password use. Once the kids know how to create encrypted passwords, they tend to use fewer passwords and have an easier time changing or updating their passwords. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 11/23/2010 8:07 PM, Marc Paré wrote: Hi Robert et al: Here is the information from Jean Hollis Weber from the documentation team. Jean is one of the senior leads on the documentation team. == Marc, thanks for passing this on. Some factual info regarding the OOo user guides: 1) The ODTs of the OOo user guides are available as well as the PDF versions. At one point we were not allowed to put the ODTs on the main OOo website because of license differences, but there are links to where one can get them. 2) In most cases, the PDFs are *smaller* in filesize than the ODTs. 3) The PDFs of the OOo Writer Guide and the other user guides in their current form (for V3.2) are NOT formatted for 5X7, although at least one older version of those books was made available in the PDF used for the pre-printed guide sold through Lulu, which is close to that size. The current are formatted for reading on screen and for printing 2-up on A4/US paper. After complaints from users who wanted to print them, the draft V3.3 guides (and the first draft of the LibO guides) have been reformatted for printing on A4/US paper size. 4) OOo provides the user guides in chapters as well as full books, because we know that often people want only a subset of the information. 5) Surely the answer to if you are a new user, this is the one you want is the book titled _Getting Started with OOo_. Having said all that, I agree that improvements could (and should) be made. I think the current Getting Started with OOo book, at over 350 pages, is much too long. My original intention was to have it no more than 200 pages, but it grew... people kept adding things and it's hard to decide -- or agree upon -- what to cut out. Turning some of the chapters, particularly the chapter on Writer, into stand-alone books of about 100 pages, is a good idea. Expand a bit on what's there and include pointers to more detailed into in the full Writer Guide, which runs around 500 pages. Aside: I would like to split the Writer Guide into two books, one with basic info and one with more advanced topics like master documents and forms. The book of basic info does need to include the basics of style use, because styles are fundamental to so many features of Writer. Shipping a user guide with the product is a good idea, but runs into the practical difficulty of getting stuff written/updated in time. The docs always run behind, mainly because there are not enough people to work on them. --Jean As well, other personal emails suggested that adding it to the download would probably not be acceptable, for the same reasons discussed before. Cheers Marc I'm just trying to catch up with this discussion, but how about if the installation process included an offer to download documentation, and provided some options about that (e.g., basic introductory material for Writer/Calc/Impress/..., the current Getting Started, the full guides, or whatever) as well as links to the online documents? If this material could be captured for later use, too (perhaps as a Documentation option in the Start menu or the equivalent), that would be good. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 11/24/2010 7:00 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote: On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: Does Drupal Forums allow one to 'subscribe' (get email notifications) to both Main Topics/Sections as well as individual threads? The Drupal messaging/notification system can provide subscriptions and mail back responses for ANY part of the site. Topics, Sections, Threads, Areas of the site, Even every post across the site in a specific language to go to extremes. If you want a subscription available for something that is not available when the Drupal site goes Beta then you can request it and it will be added easily, but we will try to anticipate all possible use cases. The input and output of the system is fully configurable. You can even get your subscriptions sent to you in Twitter, Facebook or Jabber (Google Chat) messages if you want. Plug and play really. Michael Wheatland Drupal is sounding really good! From what you're saying, it seems that whatever mode of communication they choose, somebody who asks a question can be fully interactive with the community in things such as answering follow-up questions, getting additional clarification, and so on, without having to make commitments to receive all the mail (or a digest) for a list or log in to a forum. The lack of this kind of continuity is what I feel has been a fatal flaw in the handling of questions from unsubscribed users -- for instance, with the often-suggested modification of the Reply To header to include the unsubscribed user. (In that case, for example, only replies made directly to the original post would be sent to the unsub; everything else requires special handling based on the knowledge that the user is not subscribed.) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. A user forum (with optional mail notification) and a wiki are much more powerful tools. A forum makes it much easier to create a hierarchy of helpers based on merit and on the other hand to handle poorly behaved users. A wiki can be an organized structure of accumulated knowledge. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-LibreOffice-tp1954148p1954657.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 11/23/2010 11:57 AM, plino wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. A user forum (with optional mail notification) and a wiki are much more powerful tools. A forum makes it much easier to create a hierarchy of helpers based on merit and on the other hand to handle poorly behaved users. A wiki can be an organized structure of accumulated knowledge. i agree, a forum would be more efficient and easier to manage. Out of all the open source forum solutions currently out, I would have to say that Vanilla forums is the best. Between active development, aesthetically appealing, up to date feature sets, it has it all. http://www.vanillaforums.org -- Thanks for your time, Nathan Heafner -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Nathan nathan1...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/23/2010 11:57 AM, plino wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. A user forum (with optional mail notification) and a wiki are much more powerful tools. A forum makes it much easier to create a hierarchy of helpers based on merit and on the other hand to handle poorly behaved users. A wiki can be an organized structure of accumulated knowledge. i agree, a forum would be more efficient and easier to manage. Out of all the open source forum solutions currently out, I would have to say that Vanilla forums is the best. Between active development, aesthetically appealing, up to date feature sets, it has it all. http://www.vanillaforums.org Forums and wikis both have their uses, but a wiki is limited by the keywords the user knows, its existing content, and its search function, and a forum is prone to developing long, meandering questions/discussions and lots of duplicate questions. As Benjamin demonstrated (accidentally), they're not ideal for question-and-answer discussions. He linked to stackoverflow.com, which is not an open-source platform, but is a great precedent for a support system. It integrates the concepts of a blog, wiki, forum, and Digg/Reddit into one system that seems to work well for asking and getting answers to questions. Superuser.com is actually the place to ask questions about the use of software rather than Stackoverflow, which is for development. OpenOffice.org actually has 181 questions in their own tag on this site. There are no questions about LibreOffice yet. Should we start a new tag for LibreOffice and maintain a presence there? -- Kevin Vermeer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
There are open software stacks with various CMS tools where you can combine wiki, blog, forum, and FAQ functionality together. A community site could have articles on the front end to help demonstate features, provide tutorials, expose new templates and extensions, etc. Users can provide comments and questions on the articles as well as post in the forums. Duplicate questions are bound to occur in forums. The problem with that is retyping the same solutions time and time again. But if there is an integrated wiki/knowledgebase in the site, then you can link to the solution there. My concern is that many users expect help to be present in the application itself, and not everyone is willing to go and find answers in a community. Could the application itself pull its Help functionality from online resources? -- T. J. On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Kevin Vermeer reemrevni...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Nathan nathan1...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/23/2010 11:57 AM, plino wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. A user forum (with optional mail notification) and a wiki are much more powerful tools. A forum makes it much easier to create a hierarchy of helpers based on merit and on the other hand to handle poorly behaved users. A wiki can be an organized structure of accumulated knowledge. i agree, a forum would be more efficient and easier to manage. Out of all the open source forum solutions currently out, I would have to say that Vanilla forums is the best. Between active development, aesthetically appealing, up to date feature sets, it has it all. http://www.vanillaforums.org Forums and wikis both have their uses, but a wiki is limited by the keywords the user knows, its existing content, and its search function, and a forum is prone to developing long, meandering questions/discussions and lots of duplicate questions. As Benjamin demonstrated (accidentally), they're not ideal for question-and-answer discussions. He linked to stackoverflow.com , which is not an open-source platform, but is a great precedent for a support system. It integrates the concepts of a blog, wiki, forum, and Digg/Reddit into one system that seems to work well for asking and getting answers to questions. Superuser.com is actually the place to ask questions about the use of software rather than Stackoverflow, which is for development. OpenOffice.org actually has 181 questions in their own tag on this site. There are no questions about LibreOffice yet. Should we start a new tag for LibreOffice and maintain a presence there? -- Kevin Vermeer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
My concern is that many users expect help to be present in the application itself, and not everyone is willing to go and find answers in a community. Could the application itself pull its Help functionality from online resources? In my experience an online forum/help/FAQ does NOT replace an offline help, it is a complement. There is always the need for an offline FAQ (included in the help files) which must be compiled by humans from the most frequent questions at the forum (ideally already organized in the wiki) If people keep asking the same questions (hence they are considered FAQ) it's because it's not clear enough on the standard help file how to perform those tasks. Even assuming that many people don't bother to read before asking, if a given task generates repeated questions it means that it should be included in the online and offline FAQs as a first approach and that the GUI itself should be re-designed to make it easier to find the function. I know this is easier said than done. But it is the key to a successful program. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-LibreOffice-tp1954148p1955402.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 08:57:45 AM -0800, plino (pedl...@gmail.com) wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. The problem I describe did not happen because OOo had no support forum. They happened because many volunteers did not want to use them but the official mailing list sucked big time because of certain policies. Now, in my **opinion**, forums are very limiting and ineffective tools compared to email and mailing lists. But this is my opinion, so we can safely ignore it. What I know for a FACT, which is embarassingly evident from the ooo-users archives, is that, regardless of your opinion, there ARE many people who were only available to provide support by email, were driven away by the dumb strategies I describe in the article and never used the forums that OOo does have. So, if you want to engage those potential contributors too, you have to give them an email environment that is purged for good from certain bright ideas. If you don't want that, no problem. The form that sends the help request can certainly send it to a forum instead of a mailing list, if that's the only channel TDF decides to offer for LibreOffice. Marco -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 14:29, M. Fioretti a écrit : On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 08:57:45 AM -0800, plino (pedl...@gmail.com) wrote: I do agree that volunteer-friendly user support is the key for the success of any Open Source project. However, in my opinion e-mail and mailing lists are obsolete and ineffective tools. The problem I describe did not happen because OOo had no support forum. They happened because many volunteers did not want to use them but the official mailing list sucked big time because of certain policies. Now, in my **opinion**, forums are very limiting and ineffective tools compared to email and mailing lists. But this is my opinion, so we can safely ignore it. What I know for a FACT, which is embarassingly evident from the ooo-users archives, is that, regardless of your opinion, there ARE many people who were only available to provide support by email, were driven away by the dumb strategies I describe in the article and never used the forums that OOo does have. So, if you want to engage those potential contributors too, you have to give them an email environment that is purged for good from certain bright ideas. If you don't want that, no problem. The form that sends the help request can certainly send it to a forum instead of a mailing list, if that's the only channel TDF decides to offer for LibreOffice. Marco Hi Marco If this means anything, the Drupal LibreOffice website will be offering all modes of communications to the users: mailists, forums and wiki. If you can think of any other modes let us know and we will into providing it for the members. Cheers Marc Drupal Web Dev. Team Member -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 15:11, plino a écrit : If this means anything, the Drupal LibreOffice website will be offering all modes of communications to the users: mailists, forums and wiki. If you can think of any other modes let us know and we will into providing it for the members. Marc, does it provide Live support such as a one-on-one Chat (like Facebook or Gtalk) or a IRC type page? I occasionally use the Gnumeric and Abiword IRC channels to get fast, direct answers and it works extremely well. I'll leave foward a note on to Michael who will be able to fill you in with the details. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
I just have to respond to this, I hate forums or anything else that required the use of PASSWORDS!!! I already have 10 times too many passwords to remember or keep track of and I want absolutely NO more. Frankly I wish the entire computer and software industry would flush the whole idea of passwords down the loo and come up with something else entirely. I totally agree. Having to create an account and to log in is usually enough to make most people give up (I haven't registered to Bugzilla...) That is why I suggested on another topic that posting would only require a valid email and solving a captcha (to avoid bots and spam). The same could be applied to the support forum. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-LibreOffice-tp1954148p1957000.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Marc Paré wrote: Le 2010-11-23 15:36, Robert Derman a écrit : I have said this in the OOo discuss list, and I think it bears repeating here. One of the biggest problems causing the need for users especially new ones to need help is the lack of a good users manual. The OOo documentation site is very confusing, there are too many manuals to choose from and nothing says anything like If you are a new user, this is the one you want. I could be wrong in this, but I don't think that I am. The only module I ever use with any regularity is Writer. If I can figure out how to use it, I might use Calc for a personal check register, likewise I might use Base for a list of all my DVD collection, but it's Writer that I use daily. I suspect that I am fairly typical in this, and that perhaps 50% or more of OOo, and now LO users use Writer far more than they use the other applications. A survey might tell us if that is so. Assuming that it is, I think the primary users manual should focus on Writer, with just one chapter on each of the other modules, and a pointer to where to download a more extensive manual on each. Where I disagree with most who write in, is that I think that a basic manual like I describe *should be in the download package*. In order to keep it small for that reason, it should be in ODF format not PDF, and it should be formatted for an 8.5x11 page rather than the usual 5x7 so that it would be practical for the user to print out without the horrendous paper waste of the 5x7 format. (Remember all printer paper comes in 8.5x11 or similar) Also keeping it to 100 pages or less will both keep the download size down, and encourage users to actually print a hard copy. (a hard copy is very useful because you can read in the manual while using the software) I find help often less than helpful simply because it can be difficult to both read how to do a thing and simultaneously do it. I recognize that a much longer and more detailed manual is required to completely cover subjects like Styles, but for all beginners, and most other users a manual like I just described is what's needed. Probably organized with an introduction to the most used commands, then a tutorial, then a reference section. This could be one thing that would set LO apart from other packages that offer good word processors, Even expensive MS basically sucks in the area of manuals and user support. Years ago they used to be much better in this area. Good user support seems to be the first thing that for profit companies give up when they think they can get away with it. Now it is time for me to climb down off of my soapbox Robert Derman Hi Robert. This could probably be easily done. However, adding it to the download may not be a good idea as some of us (there are qutie a few) are already worried about the size of the download. Maybe make advertising of the download a little more obvious would be the solution. Then the user would only have to download the manual at that point. I will leave a note to the documentation team and se what they think of this. I'm sure they will come back with usefull information. Cheers Marc Perhaps we should make more of an effort than OOo did of making LO available on disk as an alternative to downloads. An on disk version could include more documentation as well as many, most, or perhaps all templates and extensions. a CD provides about 700 MB of space which is really a lot, and a DVDs 4.5 gig is almost unlimited compared to the size of what we have to offer. Perhaps there could be a way for people to use credit card or Pay Pal to order a disk at a price that would help support TDF and yet be fairly reasonable. I think expecting others to provide this was a mistake with OOo, because most sold the disk at an excessive price, usually renaming the package so that people wouldn't realize that they were actually being ripped off. I am a subscriber to NetFlix and the DVD disks that they send me are shipped in a simple paper envelope and Tyvek sleeve so I know that fancy padded packages are not required, so disks could be shipped as regular world wide first class mail. I believe that this is certainly something to think about. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
One of LibreOffice's supporters is Mark Shuttleworth / Canonical. They have a lot of experience in shipping Ubuntu disks worlwide for free... Just an idea ;) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/A-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-LibreOffice-tp1954148p1957198.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Ubuntu will be doing half the work for us as they will also be shipping LibreOffice to all Ubuntu users. I believe that a number of other distributions are planning the same. Now we just need to convince people to upgrade their OS and shipping the CDs is taken care of ;) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Andy Brown wrote: On Tue Nov 23 2010 12:36:35 GMT-0800 (PST) Robert Derman wrote: Assuming that it is, I think the primary users manual should focus on Writer, with just one chapter on each of the other modules, and a pointer to where to download a more extensive manual on each. Where I disagree with most who write in, is that I think that a basic manual like I describe *should be in the download package*. In order to keep it small for that reason, it should be in ODF format not PDF, and it should be formatted for an 8.5x11 page rather than the usual 5x7 so that it would be practical for the user to print out without the horrendous paper waste of the 5x7 format. (Remember all printer paper comes in 8.5x11 or similar) Also keeping it to 100 pages or less will both keep the download size down, and encourage users to actually print a hard copy. (a hard copy is very useful because you can read in the manual while using the software) I find help often less than helpful simply because it can be difficult to both read how to do a thing and simultaneously do it.I recognize that a much longer and more detailed manual is required to completely cover subjects like Styles, but for all beginners, and most other users a manual like I just described is what's needed. Probably organized with an introduction to the most used commands, then a tutorial, then a reference section. There are two of your points I would like to comment on. First, use ODF instead of PDF. If a person wishes to view the installation part of the document before they install the software then they are out of luck. Second, where do you get the idea that the documents are formated to 5x7 paper size? None of the documents I have seen have been formated for that size paper. All the docs from the OOoAuthors site are in fact formated for paper size A4. The PDFs can be printed two-up on 8.5x11 paper. Andy On your first point I agree with you, the installation instructions should be in PDF for the reason you state. I do know however that ODF if far more economical of file size than PDF, I have noticed that on documents that I have written with Writer and then output as PDFs. As far as 5x7 that is a guesstimation. What I do know for sure is that when I print manuals out there are usually hugely wasteful margins at all 4 sides when they are printed on 8.5x11 inch paper which is the only size commonly available in the U.S. I actually resent the authors forcing me to waste this much paper! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 2010/11/23 4:46 PM Michael Wheatland wrote: Now we just need to convince people to upgrade their OS and shipping the CDs is taken care of;) Only for Linux users. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 23/11/10 23:53, Robert Derman a écrit : As far as 5x7 that is a guesstimation. What I do know for sure is that when I print manuals out there are usually hugely wasteful margins at all 4 sides when they are printed on 8.5x11 inch paper which is the only size commonly available in the U.S. I actually resent the authors forcing me to waste this much paper! It would be interesting to know, just from a statistical point of view, which countries in the world use Letter instead of A4 as their default page size for office documents. Apart from the US, I can't think of many others, but perhaps I am just ignorant of the use of the Letter format throughout the world. Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Hi Robert, * Robert Derman schrieb: [...] Perhaps we should make more of an effort than OOo did of making LO available on disk as an alternative to downloads. An on disk version could include more documentation as well as many, most, or perhaps all templates and extensions. a CD provides about 700 MB of space which is really a lot, and a DVDs 4.5 gig is almost unlimited compared to the size of what we have to offer. There is already a team working on a downloadable ISO for a DVD containing not only the product, but documentation and other resources too. They started in the Germanophone OOo community as PrOOo-Box (http://www.prooo-box.org) and continue their work for LibreOffice - starting from the German version, but will work on an international level too: http://www.libreofficebox.org/ Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 2010/11/23 5:01 PM Alexander Thurgood wrote: It would be interesting to know, just from a statistical point of view, which countries in the world use Letter instead of A4 as their default page size for office documents. Apart from the US, I can't think of many others, but perhaps I am just ignorant of the use of the Letter format throughout the world. Canada uses Letter. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 23 November 2010 21:25, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Tue Nov 23 2010 12:36:35 GMT-0800 (PST) Robert Derman wrote: Assuming that it is, I think the primary users manual should focus on Writer, with just one chapter on each of the other modules, and a pointer to where to download a more extensive manual on each. Where I disagree with most who write in, is that I think that a basic manual like I describe *should be in the download package*. In order to keep it small for that reason, it should be in ODF format not PDF, and it should be formatted for an 8.5x11 page rather than the usual 5x7 so that it would be practical for the user to print out without the horrendous paper waste of the 5x7 format. (Remember all printer paper comes in 8.5x11 or similar) Also keeping it to 100 pages or less will both keep the download size down, and encourage users to actually print a hard copy. (a hard copy is very useful because you can read in the manual while using the software) I find help often less than helpful simply because it can be difficult to both read how to do a thing and simultaneously do it.I recognize that a much longer and more detailed manual is required to completely cover subjects like Styles, but for all beginners, and most other users a manual like I just described is what's needed. Probably organized with an introduction to the most used commands, then a tutorial, then a reference section. There are two of your points I would like to comment on. First, use ODF instead of PDF. If a person wishes to view the installation part of the document before they install the software then they are out of luck. Second, where do you get the idea that the documents are formated to 5x7 paper size? None of the documents I have seen have been formated for that size paper. All the docs from the OOoAuthors site are in fact formated for paper size A4. The PDFs can be printed two-up on 8.5x11 paper. There are some good manuals for OOo - Gabriel Gurley's A conceptual Guide to OpenOffice.org 3 and the OpenOffice.org Authors publications. However, I think what is needed is an on-line tutorial system that leads to certification. That is really what we will be aiming at with the LO certification that we are meeting about in Berlin. If we can get EU funding, we can produce an on-line tutorial system for each of the components of LO in several languages with links to screen casts to demonstrate how to do things. Link those to the assessment criteria and you have a fully supported learning system. There is then the possibility of linking the LO help system to this. Make it free for all to use but charge people who need certification a small amount for the certification part and you have an income to make it sustainable and to contribute back for development. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Hi Robert et al: Here is the information from Jean Hollis Weber from the documentation team. Jean is one of the senior leads on the documentation team. == Marc, thanks for passing this on. Some factual info regarding the OOo user guides: 1) The ODTs of the OOo user guides are available as well as the PDF versions. At one point we were not allowed to put the ODTs on the main OOo website because of license differences, but there are links to where one can get them. 2) In most cases, the PDFs are *smaller* in filesize than the ODTs. 3) The PDFs of the OOo Writer Guide and the other user guides in their current form (for V3.2) are NOT formatted for 5X7, although at least one older version of those books was made available in the PDF used for the pre-printed guide sold through Lulu, which is close to that size. The current are formatted for reading on screen and for printing 2-up on A4/US paper. After complaints from users who wanted to print them, the draft V3.3 guides (and the first draft of the LibO guides) have been reformatted for printing on A4/US paper size. 4) OOo provides the user guides in chapters as well as full books, because we know that often people want only a subset of the information. 5) Surely the answer to if you are a new user, this is the one you want is the book titled _Getting Started with OOo_. Having said all that, I agree that improvements could (and should) be made. I think the current Getting Started with OOo book, at over 350 pages, is much too long. My original intention was to have it no more than 200 pages, but it grew... people kept adding things and it's hard to decide -- or agree upon -- what to cut out. Turning some of the chapters, particularly the chapter on Writer, into stand-alone books of about 100 pages, is a good idea. Expand a bit on what's there and include pointers to more detailed into in the full Writer Guide, which runs around 500 pages. Aside: I would like to split the Writer Guide into two books, one with basic info and one with more advanced topics like master documents and forms. The book of basic info does need to include the basics of style use, because styles are fundamental to so many features of Writer. Shipping a user guide with the product is a good idea, but runs into the practical difficulty of getting stuff written/updated in time. The docs always run behind, mainly because there are not enough people to work on them. --Jean As well, other personal emails suggested that adding it to the download would probably not be acceptable, for the same reasons discussed before. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
On 11/23/2010 02:50 PM, Ian Lynch wrote: On 23 November 2010 21:25, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Tue Nov 23 2010 12:36:35 GMT-0800 (PST) Robert Derman wrote: Assuming that it is, I think the primary users manual should focus on Writer, with just one chapter on each of the other modules, and a pointer to where to download a more extensive manual on each. Where I disagree with most who write in, is that I think that a basic manual like I describe *should be in the download package*. In order to keep it small for that reason, it should be in ODF format not PDF, and it should be formatted for an 8.5x11 page rather than the usual 5x7 so that it would be practical for the user to print out without the horrendous paper waste of the 5x7 format. (Remember all printer paper comes in 8.5x11 or similar) Also keeping it to 100 pages or less will both keep the download size down, and encourage users to actually print a hard copy. (a hard copy is very useful because you can read in the manual while using the software) I find help often less than helpful simply because it can be difficult to both read how to do a thing and simultaneously do it.I recognize that a much longer and more detailed manual is required to completely cover subjects like Styles, but for all beginners, and most other users a manual like I just described is what's needed. Probably organized with an introduction to the most used commands, then a tutorial, then a reference section. There are two of your points I would like to comment on. First, use ODF instead of PDF. If a person wishes to view the installation part of the document before they install the software then they are out of luck. Second, where do you get the idea that the documents are formated to 5x7 paper size? None of the documents I have seen have been formated for that size paper. All the docs from the OOoAuthors site are in fact formated for paper size A4. The PDFs can be printed two-up on 8.5x11 paper. There are some good manuals for OOo - Gabriel Gurley's A conceptual Guide to OpenOffice.org 3 and the OpenOffice.org Authors publications. However, I think what is needed is an on-line tutorial system that leads to certification. That is really what we will be aiming at with the LO certification that we are meeting about in Berlin. If we can get EU funding, we can produce an on-line tutorial system for each of the components of LO in several languages with links to screen casts to demonstrate how to do things. Link those to the assessment criteria and you have a fully supported learning system. There is then the possibility of linking the LO help system to this. Make it free for all to use but charge people who need certification a small amount for the certification part and you have an income to make it sustainable and to contribute back for development. I think I like this proposal of yours. Basically, you're saying the training is free, but the certification costs. That would definitely make it accessible to people like me. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 19:20, Bernhard Dippold a écrit : Hi Robert, * Robert Derman schrieb: [...] Perhaps we should make more of an effort than OOo did of making LO available on disk as an alternative to downloads. An on disk version could include more documentation as well as many, most, or perhaps all templates and extensions. a CD provides about 700 MB of space which is really a lot, and a DVDs 4.5 gig is almost unlimited compared to the size of what we have to offer. There is already a team working on a downloadable ISO for a DVD containing not only the product, but documentation and other resources too. They started in the Germanophone OOo community as PrOOo-Box (http://www.prooo-box.org) and continue their work for LibreOffice - starting from the German version, but will work on an international level too: http://www.libreofficebox.org/ Best regards Bernhard Thanks for the link Bernhard. Is this group listed anywhere on the OOo website? Where do you think that we would list it on our LibreOffice.org site? This is great! Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 16:50, Ian Lynch a écrit : There are some good manuals for OOo - Gabriel Gurley's A conceptual Guide to OpenOffice.org 3 and the OpenOffice.org Authors publications. However, I think what is needed is an on-line tutorial system that leads to certification. That is really what we will be aiming at with the LO certification that we are meeting about in Berlin. If we can get EU funding, we can produce an on-line tutorial system for each of the components of LO in several languages with links to screen casts to demonstrate how to do things. Link those to the assessment criteria and you have a fully supported learning system. There is then the possibility of linking the LO help system to this. Make it free for all to use but charge people who need certification a small amount for the certification part and you have an income to make it sustainable and to contribute back for development. Thanks for the great suggestion. I believe you had left a copy of this proposal on the ideas page? http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Ideas#LibO_certification And I believe there are talks of the same on this side of the Atlantic (Americas etc.) but I can't find this link any more. Maybe we should piggy back that suggestion onto your suggestion Ian. Great idea! Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 19:55, Larry Gusaas a écrit : On 2010/11/23 5:01 PM Alexander Thurgood wrote: It would be interesting to know, just from a statistical point of view, which countries in the world use Letter instead of A4 as their default page size for office documents. Apart from the US, I can't think of many others, but perhaps I am just ignorant of the use of the Letter format throughout the world. Canada uses Letter. The latest version of documentation will be written up for A4/Letter printing, according to Jean Hollis Weber. I believe that the A4/Letter size covers all countries. You can read more of the documentation response to this thread here: http://go.mail-archive.com/gV-hAAe2bqaIsJGOQzWQEjkVkys= Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 17:52, Michael Wheatland a écrit : On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Robert Derman robert.der...@pressenter.com wrote: I just have to respond to this, I hate forums or anything else that required the use of PASSWORDS!!! I already have 10 times too many passwords to remember or keep track of and I want absolutely NO more. Frankly I wish the entire computer and software industry would flush the whole idea of passwords down the loo and come up with something else entirely. We will be providing a system where no signup is required, likely just a recaptcha word challenge and spam filtering. The Drupal messaging system, which will be the main hub of internal/external data transfer including support requests and answers, currently supports Twitter and XMPP (Jabber and Google Talk), both of which can be extended using external infrastructure in order to aggregate and distribute support information in a structured way while keeping a record of the transactions which people can browse/search within the website. Michael Wheatland Thanks Michael. It will be nice when we are able to use it. Nice to see no signup. Hopefully this will help solve the help request from non members. We certainly do not want to ignore them, but rather help them and maybe convince them to join our membership and help out. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 18:05, Alexander Thurgood a écrit : Le 23/11/10 23:01, Robert Derman a écrit : I just have to respond to this, I hate forums or anything else that required the use of PASSWORDS!!! I already have 10 times too many passwords to remember or keep track of and I want absolutely NO more. Frankly I wish the entire computer and software industry would flush the whole idea of passwords down the loo and come up with something else entirely. How else would one prevent bots from joining the lists and spamming them ? If you want an example, of how bad it has become, join a usenet newsgroup and see how much crud gets posted on it. How else would one provide a given user a modicum of security and identification ? Alex I find that it sometimes does not require much. I had problems with spammers and bots on my sites till I added a captcha where you had to spell words backwards. Spam is now down to a very small trickle and I can now literally monitor new signups and to a quick check to see if they are listed spam logins. Cheers marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 2010-11-23 15:11, plino a écrit : If this means anything, the Drupal LibreOffice website will be offering all modes of communications to the users: mailists, forums and wiki. If you can think of any other modes let us know and we will into providing it for the members. Marc, does it provide Live support such as a one-on-one Chat (like Facebook or Gtalk) or a IRC type page? I occasionally use the Gnumeric and Abiword IRC channels to get fast, direct answers and it works extremely well. Hi Plino: Michael answered a few posts below or you can read his answer on the archives if you can't find his post. Here is the link: http://go.mail-archive.com/JHR4JfBpt6jdRpxVSERqjNPL8FE= Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Re: A proposal for effective, volunteer-friendly user support in LibreOffice
Le 24/11/10 03:31, Marc Paré a écrit : I find that it sometimes does not require much. I had problems with spammers and bots on my sites till I added a captcha where you had to spell words backwards. Spam is now down to a very small trickle and I can now literally monitor new signups and to a quick check to see if they are listed spam logins. Does such a system also prevent false representation, i.e. someone passing themselves off as another member ? With a userid and password combo, this is much harder to do, it seems (notwithstanding one's computer being hacked and one's ID/pwds being stolen) ? Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
