RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
From: e-letter [mailto:inp...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:34 PM To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest mode and going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate. Because people never keep focus in email, texting and twitter. Those are the worst tools to support a group process. This 25 years old technology should have long been abandoned in favour of more knowledge based tools for a collaboration. Having watched this space for a month or so, I am about to sign off. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi Pieter, *, Pieter E. Zanstra schrieb: From: e-letter [mailto:inp...@gmail.com] What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest mode and going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate. Because people never keep focus in email, texting and twitter. Those are the worst tools to support a group process. This 25 years old technology should have long been abandoned in favour of more knowledge based tools for a collaboration. Statements as above hit the thumb instead of the nail - causing the corresponding (re)sentiments. :o)) Having watched this space for a month or so, I am about to sign off. I can't hold You. Maybe it's to hard for some people here to read single opinions as opinions instead of facts and to stand opinions different from the own ones. Apparently live is like that.. Have a nice time. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 29 April 2011 16:33, e-letter inp...@gmail.com wrote: As I said, I'm sure Bill Gates said leave those toy phones to Nokia, RIM and Apple. Google seem to have been smarter. As mobile and web technologies take over I can see much harder times ahead for anyone dependent on local dependencies. Those reliant of distant web servers without no knowledge of data security employed by service providers are being naive. So do you worry about your electricity generation and have a backup generator at home just in case? Most people are not going to worry about it if it works for them and is more convenient and competition between suppliers will ensure it is. At least retrieved data onto a local hard disk drive allows data to be in more tangible control. And IBM said there would only be a need for maybe 4 computers in the world. Look at the trends. Apple just overtook MS in sales and profitability last quarter. That tells us something about the way things are moving. Hard drives are looking decidedly dated technologies for individual users - even my netbook is now all solid state. Mechanical devices will be too expensive to manufacture, too delicate and consume too much power. The future is mobile and cloud and will include local storage but probably not for running office suites like MSO, OOo, LO etc. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 04/29/2011 11:33 AM, e-letter wrote: Not sure that a web forum suddenly makes the use of LO more appealing to non-geeks What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest mode and going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate. Has the been a poll on mailing list against forum? Regardless of the result, non-geeks should be encouraged to understand the benefits of a mailing list, similarly to explaining LO compared to m$o... I don't know of any scientific studies on the matter, unfortunately. Speaking from anecdotal evidence, though, mailing lists tend to be attached to open source and other techie projects, or to niche groups that are too small to justify setting up a web forum. Otherwise web forums dominate. Larger open source projects tend to have both forums (for the general userbase) and mailing lists (for the more technically oriented crowd of users and for those working directly on the project), bearing out my (admittedly unscientific) observation. I think this is because mailing lists have a higher barrier to entry. You need to subscribe to them to experience them the way they ought to be experienced. The archives are very bare bones and don't thread the conversations (which is also why I don't like digest mode; I want messages grouped according to subject, not the day they were sent, and I prefer it done three-dimensionally like Thunderbird's threading does). Okay, the Mail-archive.com ones do do threading, but they still only display only one message at a time (unlike a web forum) and you have to use the mouse to go forward and back, unlike in Thunderbird where you can navigate with the keyboard very adroitly. I much prefer my mailing list setup to any forum, but that's part of the problem: it's my setup. A user's experience with a mailing list depends heavily on what that user brings to the table. With a web forum, it'll be the same for everyone who isn't using an ancient browser. Making the general office software-using populace learn to love mailing lists in order to discuss and get help with LibreOffice problems seems to be a totally unnecessary increase in LibreOffice's barrier to entry. -- Isaac Hummel is...@daedaleus.com http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 04/29/2011 05:54 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote: I don't know what lists you have seen but I've seen quite a number of looong threads with highly involved posts and equally involved replies. IMO forums, texting, and twitter appeal to younger users with their shorter attention spans. Also, the quality of the answers/help is usually greater on lists than in forums. Did it ever occur to you that this 25(?) year old technology is good enough to have survived that long? The reason that you get long threads and highly involved posts in mailing lists is that mailing lists attract more savvy users. The hoi polloi usually don't use them, except to complain about how difficult it is to unsubscribe (see the LibreOffice-Users list). Ditto for why answers are often better. You get a better signal-to-noise ratio and the people asking the questions are on average better at it, which is always an aid to getting better help. If LibreOffice merely wants to be a little niche project for open source purists, then mailing list-only makes sense. If they want to replace OpenOffice.org, then that won't do. You need both. -- Isaac Hummel is...@daedaleus.com http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 29/04/2011 16:03, Ian Lynch wrote: Those reliant of distant web servers without no knowledge of data security employed by service providers are being naive. Most people are not going to worry about it if it works for them and is more convenient and competition between suppliers will ensure it is. In the last year, virtually every vendor in the cloud space arena has reported system outages. Outages that have lasted for up to a week. At some point people will realize that the cloud is not the magic bullet that it is being sold as. And IBM said there would only be a need for maybe 4 computers in the world. The context of that statement was projected sales for that year. The rest of the statement --- which is almost universally ignored --- is about the expenses involved in computer access. The future is mobile and cloud and will include local storage but probably not for running office suites like MSO, OOo, LO etc. Security requirements will always make running an office suite on a system one controls mandatory. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNu6MtAAoJEERA7YuLpVrVovAIAK0OWequxf8Nnrf3WfIAUqVy NqvQk3h7E8gWatZnzwD0k5YSgIr8y5uzvq8lXawauNKXoA3qHw8PguW1kssYzdnG DDlXRQN4twu1ADDg9FG1943eOYbZs/kILWezlhC8j+YItvQtLPDKydMrU4/JIfto A2LRwTpFTBaU6f6BlQHxlXLsZFLIlKuR87KckWyYQMWh8ATvqOwlhqxJj+kSYu05 uog7LlLox1V3TBId3PXv+1ekgKlz7jVUenAU7pIYxjkKQQSP27SrKVb7DyiedTYd GbDR72qptbiqWiNi05M+dIA4QJxfn7JuPUg9UX0PYVWkQqXLfVrvNOJ0Hj5cJRE= =HrUM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
How about the issue that I mentioned earlier? At http://www.sitedossier.com/ip/174.121.218.38 it shows that there are 858 websites hosted at the same dedicated server as LibreOfficeForum.org. Hi again, Yes, I am using a shared hosting platform. I never claimed otherwise. I have used DownTownHost shared hosting for several years now, and I have been extremely satisfied with the speed and reliability. It's definitely good enough for a newly starting low-traffic forum, and if traffic were to ever go through the roof I could always upgrade to a dedicated server. I have no idea how they have their server farm set up or how many sites are running behind that public IP, etc. But I assume that you realize that the other sites you linked to are NOT mine? I administer precisely one other site on this server related to a hobby, no more, no less. Sorry if I sound terse or offended. I'm not. But I do want to set the facts straight. Thanks, Sam from LibreOfficeForum -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Thanks Drew, that's good enough for me. On Apr 27, 2011, at 18:12 , drew wrote: On Wed, 2011-04-27 at 17:55 +0200, James Wilde wrote: On Apr 26, 2011, at 18:57 , David Nelson wrote: Hi Sam, I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with your site. I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility? Anyway, just to keep you informed... I don't know whether I've missed something coming to this thread late, but is there an explanation of why they requested that the link be removed? Hi James, That would best come from me perhaps. The reason is actually rather simple - during this discussion it was apparent that a number of people where strongly opposed to linking directly to that forum. I do not think anyone would say that any type of agreement let alone consensus had been reached. while this was going one of the people with edit rights to the main web pages added links to the site, without I believe realizing that this was being discussed still. My asking that person to remove the link should be construed as meaning that the action was not appropriate at this time. Beyond that I would like to make a few comments more directly to a few points raised, but they would be best added to the emails in which they were raised and I will do so as time permits during the day. I hope that answers your question on the specific point. Best wishes, Drew Jensen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:28 AM, sb73...@libreofficeforum.org wrote: How about the issue that I mentioned earlier? At http://www.sitedossier.com/ip/174.121.218.38 it shows that there are 858 websites hosted at the same dedicated server as LibreOfficeForum.org. Hi again, Yes, I am using a shared hosting platform. I never claimed otherwise. I have used DownTownHost shared hosting for several years now, and I have been extremely satisfied with the speed and reliability. It's definitely good enough for a newly starting low-traffic forum, and if traffic were to ever go through the roof I could always upgrade to a dedicated server. I have no idea how they have their server farm set up or how many sites are running behind that public IP, etc. But I assume that you realize that the other sites you linked to are NOT mine? I administer precisely one other site on this server related to a hobby, no more, no less. Sorry if I sound terse or offended. I'm not. But I do want to set the facts straight. I got the impression from your initial post (you mentioned that «Good hosting is not cheap») that you had a dedicated server, and I assumed you were the owner of this shared hosting business. It is good that this issue is now clear. It helps to discuss things first when taking initiatives. Simos -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 04/18/2011 03:11 PM, RGB ES wrote: Well, even if I'd said that the ancient forums vs mailing lists war was not the point but *what people use*, the forums vs. mailing lists useless fight came again... At first I was tempted to refer how the English forums have near 200 new message each day and talk about the madness it would be to receive near 200 mails each day. I was tempted to talk about how I'm giving on-line support to users since a long time (I started using computers more than 25 years ago) and justify the fact that I know quite well the advantages and disadvantages of every possible communication system in use for the last 20 years... Many things... But I'm giving up. Have a nice day! And don't worry to answer me, I'm unsubscribing from the mailing list. I do agree that, whatever their limitations, forums are the discussion platform of the masses and LibreOffice needs to form a community that includes the non-geek populace if it is to become the premier version of OpenOffice/Star Office. However, in this day and age 200 mails a day is hardly madness. Not when all major free email accounts have gigabytes of storage and the ability to filter mailing lists into their own label/folder, and when Thunderbird is able to handle a folder of 15000+ messages without breaking a sweat even on an antiquated machine like mine (Pentium 4 with 640 megs of ram). -- Isaac Hummel is...@daedaleus.com http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi again, Thanks to everyone who has expressed a balanced, objective opinion about this. I don't want to spend a lot time here arguing about ads. I understand that it's a sensitive subject, I'm sorry that some people disagree, and I respect their opinions. But I would like to mention that I don't really have any control over the ad content, that is determined by Google. That being said, It seems rather strange to refer to Microsoft Office as competition and to show such a level of contempt toward it. I personally do not own, use, or even like Microsoft Office. But it isn't a taboo, shady, spammy, startup job. Like it or not, it's the industry standard still, and will continue to be so for a long time. Irrational hatred and attempts to obliterate all references to Microsoft or any other commercial project are counterproductive and don't seem to agree with the free spirit around LibreOffice. I have made a conscientious, informed, intelligent decision to use LibreOffice instead of Microsoft Office, and no amount of forum ads will sway me. I would hope and expect that most other users of the forum will likewise have the presence of mind to make a rational decision based on their own needs. That's all for now. Thanks for reading! Sam from LibreOfficeForum.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 07:13, sb73...@libreofficeforum.org wrote: Hi again, Thanks to everyone who has expressed a balanced, objective opinion about this. I don't want to spend a lot time here arguing about ads. I understand that it's a sensitive subject, I'm sorry that some people disagree, and I respect their opinions. But I would like to mention that I don't really have any control over the ad content, that is determined by Google. That being said, It seems rather strange to refer to Microsoft Office as competition and to show such a level of contempt toward it. I personally do not own, use, or even like Microsoft Office. But it isn't a taboo, shady, spammy, startup job. Like it or not, it's the industry standard still, and will continue to be so for a long time. Irrational hatred and attempts to obliterate all references to Microsoft or any other commercial project are counterproductive and don't seem to agree with the free spirit around LibreOffice. I have made a conscientious, informed, intelligent decision to use LibreOffice instead of Microsoft Office, and no amount of forum ads will sway me. I would hope and expect that most other users of the forum will likewise have the presence of mind to make a rational decision based on their own needs. That's all for now. Thanks for reading! Sam from LibreOfficeForum.org Well, there is a Competitive Ad Filterhttp://www.google.com/adsense/support/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=21593for Google Ads, so that's not an excuse. It sould be just silly if there was no possibility to filter competitors. And just to clarify, MS Office is still the defacto standard, and The Document Foundation Community and LibreOffice community want to change that. Do you really think you help the cause by advertising MS Office? Your moral arguments are just not realistic, we all live in the real world, and competition exists!! Cheers! Jaime -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 8:13 AM, sb73...@libreofficeforum.org wrote: Hi again, Thanks to everyone who has expressed a balanced, objective opinion about this. I don't want to spend a lot time here arguing about ads. I understand that it's a sensitive subject, I'm sorry that some people disagree, and I respect their opinions. But I would like to mention that I don't really have any control over the ad content, that is determined by Google. That being said, It seems rather strange to refer to Microsoft Office as competition and to show such a level of contempt toward it. I personally do not own, use, or even like Microsoft Office. But it isn't a taboo, shady, spammy, startup job. Like it or not, it's the industry standard still, and will continue to be so for a long time. Irrational hatred and attempts to obliterate all references to Microsoft or any other commercial project are counterproductive and don't seem to agree with the free spirit around LibreOffice. I have made a conscientious, informed, intelligent decision to use LibreOffice instead of Microsoft Office, and no amount of forum ads will sway me. I would hope and expect that most other users of the forum will likewise have the presence of mind to make a rational decision based on their own needs. How about the issue that I mentioned earlier? At http://www.sitedossier.com/ip/174.121.218.38 it shows that there are 858 websites hosted at the same dedicated server as LibreOfficeForum.org. Examples include: http://www.1dayacuvuemoistreviews.com/ Ad website for Acuvue products (contact lenses) http://1dayacuvuereviews.com(ditto) http://www.acuvueadvanceforastigmatismreviews.com/ http://www.acuvueadvancereviews.com/ http://www.acuvuebifocalreviews.com/ http://www.acuvuecontactlensreviews.com/ http://www.acuvueoasysforastigmatismreviews.com/ http://www.acuvueoasysforpresbyopiareviews.com/ http://www.1luv2ya.com/(I have no idea what this is about) http://proxyblind.org/ (Free Anonymous Proxy) http://www.chinatradestudy.com/ (Unnamed website carrying Reuters stories) http://carsbuysell.ca/ (Classified ads, almost empty website) http://www.awm-search-engine-optimization.co.uk/ (redirects to SEO website) And LibreOfficeForum.org is at No 238 in the list. Apart from the ads that you have on LibreOfficeForum.org you also benefit from the increase in the ranking by Google for all the websites, due to hosting LibreOfficeForum.org. What's the business plan in running the dedicated server at 174.121.218.38 and how does LibreOfficeForum.org fit to all these? It makes it quite uncomfortable to host a free and open-source project on an ad-supported platform. With what I currently know, I would opt for no association to LibreOfficeForum.org. Simos -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Apr 26, 2011, at 18:57 , David Nelson wrote: Hi Sam, I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with your site. I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility? Anyway, just to keep you informed... I don't know whether I've missed something coming to this thread late, but is there an explanation of why they requested that the link be removed? //James -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Wed, 2011-04-27 at 17:55 +0200, James Wilde wrote: On Apr 26, 2011, at 18:57 , David Nelson wrote: Hi Sam, I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with your site. I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility? Anyway, just to keep you informed... I don't know whether I've missed something coming to this thread late, but is there an explanation of why they requested that the link be removed? Hi James, That would best come from me perhaps. The reason is actually rather simple - during this discussion it was apparent that a number of people where strongly opposed to linking directly to that forum. I do not think anyone would say that any type of agreement let alone consensus had been reached. while this was going one of the people with edit rights to the main web pages added links to the site, without I believe realizing that this was being discussed still. My asking that person to remove the link should be construed as meaning that the action was not appropriate at this time. Beyond that I would like to make a few comments more directly to a few points raised, but they would be best added to the emails in which they were raised and I will do so as time permits during the day. I hope that answers your question on the specific point. Best wishes, Drew Jensen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 28/04/11 12:40 AM, Simos Xenitellis wrote: How about the issue that I mentioned earlier? At http://www.sitedossier.com/ip/174.121.218.38 it shows that there are 858 websites hosted at the same dedicated server as LibreOfficeForum.org. *Sigh* bash-3.2$ dig -x 174.121.218.38 ; DiG 9.4.3-P3 -x 174.121.218.38 ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; -HEADER- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 51994 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;38.218.121.174.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR ;; ANSWER SECTION: 38.218.121.174.in-addr.arpa. 43154 IN PTR 26.da.79ae.static.theplanet.com. ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: 218.121.174.in-addr.arpa. 43154 IN NS ns2.theplanet.com. 218.121.174.in-addr.arpa. 43154 IN NS ns1.theplanet.com. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.theplanet.com. 3069IN A 207.218.247.135 ns2.theplanet.com. 39823 IN A 207.218.223.162 ;; Query time: 32 msec ;; SERVER: 192.231.203.132#53(192.231.203.132) ;; WHEN: Thu Apr 28 09:35:03 2011 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 158 bash-3.2$ Oh, gosh, what a surprise a free forum hosted on a shared hosting platform using virtual hosting/domains. If you want that site to have a dedicated IP, perhaps you should speak to the domain owner about funding a move to a VPS or colocated box. Regards, Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAk24qXoACgkQNxrFv6BK4xPjVgCePAdTJaZF6rJBsyfUO1HA4MG8 B7MAnRhOSI/0BBcB1V2kYyPreWU8dt/6 =k9Z5 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 04/26/2011 09:57 AM, David Nelson wrote: Hi Sam, I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by Charles Schulz. +1 I appreciate the effort Sam has made to create libreofficeforum.org. Like Sam, I feel that the general user community prefers forums to mailing lists, and that a well-implemented forum can really help grow the libreoffice community and provide a sense that the project is well-supported. I also firmly believe that having an easy and recognizable URL is important -- oooforum won't work in the long-term. Unfortunately, Sam made several poor choices in setting up libreofficeforum.org. First, he apparently didn't discuss with the community at large (on the mailing lists) or the steering committee about what would make a good forum -- he just announced to the mailing list, in the first week of Oct. 2010, that he had created libreofficeforum.org. It was set up the way he set it up, and that was that. Several what the...? comments were made at the time, especially since the site had several flaws. People have complained about the ads from day 1. People have complained about MSO being advertised. People have also said that they will not provide support on this site because of this. As for me, well, I agree with these complaints 100%. This is like selling candy to raise money for a tooth-decay foundation. It makes no sense, and it creates a mixed-up message where the message should be very clear. Sam said he needs to have ads, and he doesn't want to discuss the issue of ads here. I'm sorry, but that is the major problem with the site. That issue needs to be hashed out, if not here, by the Steering Committee. If the site needs to have ads, then we don't need the site, IMHO. I'd much rather live with http://www.oooforum.org and http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum in the short-term. In any case, I think we oughtn't link to libreofficeforum.org from the official LibO site until we either reach consensus here on the mailing list, or the Steering Committee has come to a decision. Jon -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi everyone, I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I'd just like to set a few things straight. 1. The forum DOES have full categories, similar to the two major OpenOffice.org forums. Please look at /forum or click on the Forums button toward the upper left. I prefer the Recent posts listing, because it is an easy way to see activity across all the categories, and it also helps spot and control SPAM posts in the comments of old threads, which is a real problem on some other forums. That being said, if most people find this too confusing, I can change the frontpage to show the full forum categories list. I would like to kindly and respectfully request everyone to give us your opinion on this change after looking at the site with an open mind and more than a passing glance. Yes, this is an unofficial site, and yes, it runs Adsense, but a lot of time, effort, and thought has gone into it to make it nice for the user. 2. Ads. Yes, we have them. They are only Adsense text ads, I do not and will never permit image ads or 3rd party sponsor ads. I think this is a responsible and simple method of keeping the forum running if it gets hit with more traffic. Good hosting is not cheap. I realize that some users hate ads with a passion. Most of those users are already running an ad blocker, so they will never see the ads anyway. And additionally, any registered user can disable the ads with two checkboxes in his user preferences. 3. Internationalization. I need to get the registration welcome email internationalized. I don't know how to do this yet, but it's on my list. At any rate, I feel that we are showing respect to people of other languages by offering the same exact forum (with all its categories translated) in none less than 10 languages. At least one moderator that speaks the language is assigned to each one. Again, thanks to everyone involved for making LibreOffice available, it's an extremely important piece of software in my life. Sorry if I don't receive all of your replies or respond promptly. I'm not very good with mailing lists and I don't use them much. Thanks, Sam -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi, :-) On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 13:38, sb73...@libreofficeforum.org wrote: I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I am going to post link to varous LibreOffice / OpenOffice.org support forums on the LibreOffice website's Getting Help page, and LibreOfficeForum.org will be listed. Thank you for hosting a support channel on behalf of the community. :-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi Sam, I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with your site. I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility? Anyway, just to keep you informed... David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 4/26/11 6:10 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: Including ads for companies selling Microsoft Office. I find that offensive. I think exactly the opposite. Given the way the ads are placed, the fact that there are ads of companies selling MS Office qualifies the visitors of the web site as a proper target for office suites. I think we have already discussed about the fact that we are not against Microsoft, although we don't like the way that the company behaves and makes business. We are not fighting a war against Microsoft. We respect them, although we understand that the relationship with them is asymmetrical, as they want to get us out of the market. I would also like to express my personal view about advertising, which is not negative at all. I have even read somewhere (I don't remember if it was in this thread) that advertising is against the principles of free software. I personally don't like forums, because I prefer to concentrate my interactions via email, but I do respect the people who like forums, and I don't think that Google Text Ads are a problem (even if they advertise MS Office, as I think that I can judge by myself and I wouldn't want to limit the freedom of other people banning advertising because there might be MS Office ads). -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com mobile +39.348.5653829 VoIP +39.02.320621813 skype italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
David Nelson wrote: Hi Sam, I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with your site. I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility? Anyway, just to keep you informed... David Nelson David, I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following directions. If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there is going to be a lot of support lost. Andy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:50 PM, sb73...@libreofficeforum.org wrote: Hi everyone, I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I'd just like to set a few things straight. ... 2. Ads. Yes, we have them. They are only Adsense text ads, I do not and will never permit image ads or 3rd party sponsor ads. I think this is a responsible and simple method of keeping the forum running if it gets hit with more traffic. Good hosting is not cheap. I realize that some users hate ads with a passion. Most of those users are already running an ad blocker, so they will never see the ads anyway. And additionally, any registered user can disable the ads with two checkboxes in his user preferences. You probably use a dedicated host from http://www.softlayer.com/dedicated/(at least $119 per month) because $ host www.libreofficeforum.org libreofficeforum.org has address 174.121.218.38 and $ host 174.121.218.38 38.218.121.174.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer 26.da.79ae.static.theplanet.com. and finally www.theplanet.com leads to www.softlayer.com. The same IP address that has libreofficeforum.org (174.121.218.38) hosts about 430 websites. See http://whois.domaintools.com/174.121.218.38 Examples of websites are http://www.1dayacuvuemoistreviews.com/ http://www.1luv2ya.com/ I think the issue is that for a free and open-source project, it's easy to get fast Internet access and a good server, donated by some University or a company. A group of volunteers can maintain it in the beginning. Therefore, there is no need to go into issues such as paying from your own money for a server and supplementing it with ads. Simos -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
David, I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following directions. If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there is going to be a lot of support lost. I really find all this discussion ridiculous, it should not be allowed to make advertising for the main competitor, it's a matter of common sense!!! Who would make advertising for their main competitor, my God!!! Please, I don't mean to be rude, but who ever thinks that the wrong direction, then I don't think he or she lives in the real world. And I humbly invite you to search for something else. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 4/26/11 8:57 PM, Andy Brown wrote: I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following directions. If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there is going to be a lot of support lost. I am a member of the steering committee, but here I am speaking for myself. I personally prefer mailing lists, but I know that there are people who prefer forums and people who prefer newsgroups, and I have learned to respect both opinions. I don't think that the SC has expressed a formal opinion about forums, although members of the SC have been involved in several discussions about this topic, and have expressed their personal opinion. For the time being, and I anticipate that this situation will continue for a few months (let's say until the end of 2011), the SC is focused on other issues. It's a pure question of bandwidth. Looking at the OOo project, forums have been launched after several years. We need time to decide on every single problem. -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com mobile +39.348.5653829 VoIP +39.02.320621813 skype italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Jaime R. Garza wrote: David, I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following directions. If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there is going to be a lot of support lost. I really find all this discussion ridiculous, it should not be allowed to make advertising for the main competitor, it's a matter of common sense!!! Who would make advertising for their main competitor, my God!!! Please, I don't mean to be rude, but who ever thinks that the wrong direction, then I don't think he or she lives in the real world. And I humbly invite you to search for something else. Just the type of thing that is driving people way from LibreOffice/TDF. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Italo Vignoli wrote: On 4/26/11 8:57 PM, Andy Brown wrote: I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following directions. If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there is going to be a lot of support lost. I am a member of the steering committee, but here I am speaking for myself. I personally prefer mailing lists, but I know that there are people who prefer forums and people who prefer newsgroups, and I have learned to respect both opinions. I don't think that the SC has expressed a formal opinion about forums, although members of the SC have been involved in several discussions about this topic, and have expressed their personal opinion. For the time being, and I anticipate that this situation will continue for a few months (let's say until the end of 2011), the SC is focused on other issues. It's a pure question of bandwidth. Looking at the OOo project, forums have been launched after several years. We need time to decide on every single problem. Well someone told David to remove it. But then with all the new TDF members maybe one of them told him to remove it. Also I did not say anything about the SC. I am still trying to figure out the membership thing any way. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Simos Xenitellis wrote: On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:50 PM,sb73...@libreofficeforum.org wrote: Hi everyone, I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I'd just like to set a few things straight. ... 2. Ads. Yes, we have them. They are only Adsense text ads, I do not and will never permit image ads or 3rd party sponsor ads. I think this is a responsible and simple method of keeping the forum running if it gets hit with more traffic. Good hosting is not cheap. I realize that some users hate ads with a passion. Most of those users are already running an ad blocker, so they will never see the ads anyway. And additionally, any registered user can disable the ads with two checkboxes in his user preferences. You probably use a dedicated host from http://www.softlayer.com/dedicated/(at least $119 per month) because $ host www.libreofficeforum.org libreofficeforum.org has address 174.121.218.38 and $ host 174.121.218.38 38.218.121.174.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer 26.da.79ae.static.theplanet.com. and finally www.theplanet.com leads to www.softlayer.com. The same IP address that has libreofficeforum.org (174.121.218.38) hosts about 430 websites. See http://whois.domaintools.com/174.121.218.38 Examples of websites are http://www.1dayacuvuemoistreviews.com/ http://www.1luv2ya.com/ I think the issue is that for a free and open-source project, it's easy to get fast Internet access and a good server, donated by some University or a company. A group of volunteers can maintain it in the beginning. Therefore, there is no need to go into issues such as paying from your own money for a server and supplementing it with ads. Simos Have you tried? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 12:13 AM, toki toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/04/2011 08:44, Christian Lohmaier wrote: It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this You do realize that the organization that puts up the donation link has to register in each of the fifty states of the united states, and each of the thirteen provinces and territories of Canada, and each country in Europe, and each overseas province of France, etc, or face possible civil or criminal prosecution, or both, in the respective political entity in which they failed to register, don't you? No, and I'd be really surprised if this was true. But you surely have some documents to prove that claim, don't you? (and when I wrote donation above, it should be clear that I don't mean tax-decountability or other special stuff). ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi Augistine, *, On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza aesouza2...@gmail.com wrote: I have no issues with a forum that is commercial presumably to [b]cover costs[/b]. As Andy says, the ads are easily blocked (in that I had no need to take specific steps to block ads from that site). But the point was about listing forums as officially approved or somthing along those lines, and then I don't want the forum to list ads. It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this is different than to donate to TDF/LO itself), but no google-adwords or even worse graphical ads. Also perfectly fine to list the sponsor (the one who hosts the forum/runs it/pays for it) the header or footer. compare http://libreoffice-forum.de/ with http://libreofficeforum.org/ I don't have a problem with listing the first, but I don't want to link the second one as approved forum because of the ads. (Not to mention the lack of subcategories that has been mentioned before) And it doesn't matter whether you or others don't see it because you got adblock installed. The other visitors that follow links from the lo website don't have that enabled, thus they do see the ads. So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial (sponsored by is OK). That is my POV. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hi Augistine, *, On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza aesouza2...@gmail.com wrote: I have no issues with a forum that is commercial presumably to [b]cover costs[/b]. As Andy says, the ads are easily blocked (in that I had no need to take specific steps to block ads from that site). But the point was about listing forums as officially approved or somthing along those lines, and then I don't want the forum to list ads. Hi Christian. It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this is different than to donate to TDF/LO itself), but no google-adwords or even worse graphical ads. In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference, do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost is covered. Also perfectly fine to list the sponsor (the one who hosts the forum/runs it/pays for it) the header or footer. compare http://libreoffice-forum.de/ with http://libreofficeforum.org/ I don't have a problem with listing the first, but I don't want to link the second one as approved forum because of the ads. (Not to mention the lack of subcategories that has been mentioned before) I do not like the ads and the number of them on libreofficeforum but I would not feel so strongly is they where focused, as is it is a bit too commercial for my taste. (actually I was totally against ads, at all, in the beginning but I've started to change my mind on that) What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de In or Out? And it doesn't matter whether you or others don't see it because you got adblock installed. Actually it is not adbolck, it is that if you register then no ads, IIRC. The other visitors that follow links from the lo website don't have that enabled, thus they do see the ads. Yup that is the rub. So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial (sponsored by is OK). That is my POV. Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO. Thanks Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi Drew, *, On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 11:05 AM, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote: On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza aesouza2...@gmail.com wrote: [...] In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference, do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost is covered. I do see a difference, It is not about that they get money, it is /how/ the money is collected. It is the impression that the user will get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement is not an optional thing. What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de In or Out? I wonder why this can not be clear - (did you forget to turn off your adblocker?) It is a definite Out. it has animated, blinking banner-style adds. That's just annoying and way too much. The adds are at the top, at the left, at the right, at the bottom. That's way too much. So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial (sponsored by is OK). That is my POV. Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO. Not really. Either you want to support the project, by donating your server or your time, or you want to get revenue by having ads. After all setting up a forum is not rocket science, and it is not like there would be a lack of them and we have to beg people to set up yet another one. (IMHO there are already too many of them) ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 12:27 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hi Drew, *, On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 11:05 AM, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote: On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza aesouza2...@gmail.com wrote: [...] In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference, do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost is covered. Howdy, I do see a difference, Fair enough. It is not about that they get money, it is /how/ the money is collected. Also fair enough. It is the impression that the user will get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement is not an optional thing. Was not the user forced to view the donate advertisement, that is what it is after all, an advertisement. The user of a display ad is not forced to click on it. A user could user an ad blocker to keep themselves from being 'insulted' by the advertisement (I assume as I do not use one), but if I understand correctly this would not turn off the donate advertisement. (I'm not really sure on that.) What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de In or Out? I wonder why this can not be clear - (did you forget to turn off your adblocker?) Again, I don't use one, so I see all those ads. It is a definite Out. it has animated, blinking banner-style adds. That's just annoying and way too much. The adds are at the top, at the left, at the right, at the bottom. That's way too much. So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial (sponsored by is OK). That is my POV. Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO. Not really. Either you want to support the project, by donating your server or your time, or you want to get revenue by having ads. After all setting up a forum is not rocket science, @Hagar, guys - I'm done. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 04/25/2011 05:07 AM, drew wrote: On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 12:27 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote: It is the impression that the user will get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement is not an optional thing. Was not the user forced to view the donate advertisement, that is what it is after all, an advertisement. The user of a display ad is not forced to click on it. The biggest problem I have with ads on a forum is the impression it makes on a new user. If I go to a forum for the first time and I see no ads, a lot of users logged in, and a lot of recent activity, I know I have something good. This is the goal we should have for a new LibreOffice forum. A site with ads detracts from the community-supported, community-driven impression that I would like to see LibO make. A donate button does not detract from this impression, IMHO. From a no-ads standpoint, http://www.oooforum.org and http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ set good examples -- they only have the logo of the forum sponsor, which is fine. The problem with those is that they use the name ooo, and one is sponsored by Oracle, so I think using them is not in the long-term interest of LibO. Since we are starting from scratch with a forum, I think we should set it up properly, without ads. If that means waiting a couple of months to find a sponsor willing to do it, it's worth the wait, in my view. I like the domain libreofficeforum.org, so hopefully the owner will be willing to give it up. Jon -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 2011-04-25 4:36 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/04/25 2:13 PM Charles Marcus wrote: Being contrary to the spirit of making money is being contrary to the spirit of life itself Bullshit. Making money has nothing to do with the spirit of life. No bullshit... it has everything to do with it, since supporting life requires food, clothing and shelter, and those require - gasp! money. - unless of course you're one of 'those' people who believe that they are *entitled* to the fruit of other people's labor. What makes you think I believe I'm entitled to the fruit of other people's labour? I said *UNLESS* you are... I didn't say you were... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 25/04/2011 03:29, Larry Gusaas wrote: Someone makes money any time an ad is clicked on. That is contrary to the spirit of using open source software. Open Source Software is about LIBRE. Gratis is completely and utterly irrelevant to FLOSS. Frankly, I'd be extremely surprised if the adds generated enough revenue to pay the true costs of running the website. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNte/0AAoJEERA7YuLpVrV91wH+wUHLKdlbKTyBLO0kZCTLmXY zUqFJ/d50dtH3R7xrwhkmsCuqOAkD5/0zKLrfiS3TMvFQ3Sw4UKmHPjT6p6Gb8JM ARa7IHJfLY5L2M9Fagft1EbRwTDQQzbtT+Qb0bOUVwemoo+FxsWTJTlYp0xMYSx9 iOrY3QNpvTqGDmBvC4fGaxYqjWcx6as/qed45QrzAz4KU3Shvc6vZVQl8Wey5Qnv k0FVYWRCL6CjPzpqgYNd2CWVPUXl/O2qAdhMiMtgsdmHjf8Pb1RJJNaM9kcedxMY sDYXSmIxf14XamRhrCcev6j40U7gVVkcBuPZFTf0BAqb8VCmbhIUIXLKnNu905U= =ETO0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 25/04/2011 08:44, Christian Lohmaier wrote: It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this You do realize that the organization that puts up the donation link has to register in each of the fifty states of the united states, and each of the thirteen provinces and territories of Canada, and each country in Europe, and each overseas province of France, etc, or face possible civil or criminal prosecution, or both, in the respective political entity in which they failed to register, don't you? jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNtfHxAAoJEERA7YuLpVrVpLgH/0GPKwyz6vlJH+Hrf39YzHiV HaSxtDtI0opLod+2wOsFzMz2QH7kKeB7xzAKCZUUN0cfqxKkbRrzdPrh+OC24iur 2gh//qo8eHF+VyCXtMBaeO+kZZ3uKqFNA61hzxRMc9WTB8SPvVCFd2N+xvWBBsGF Qjiy4obkCz973GJNDWGUJ/+bmRotTA4QAMDkkvGnlJB4eLD07jckDDqih30UISjN dLYsAvUaBfDW1/u2CpsKDc6zLAV4YTVF/rHbHaYGUaWpKbYDkq4ljCA9euE1YsYV dmwmyxMu05Gsm5/7f5ZSwYYSJiTHcg0abXNUsrUYn+8nbHfzmlssJOQ0ESO/9+U= =tJ6w -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/04/24 12:14 PM adept techlists - kazar wrote: Ah, OK, i just searched for libreoffice forum and found http://en.libreofficeforum.org/. Uncategorized, and I believe forums with categories are better learning tools. Plus, even though I started from the en. subdomain and selected English as my language on the home page, when I registered a new account the email instructions were: That forum includes commercial ads. I will not support a forum driven by commercial interests. Larry This comes as a surprise to me. I do not see any ads before or after I login. Andy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/04/24 1:05 PM Andy Brown wrote: adept techlists - kazar wrote: On 4/24/11 2:42 PM, Andy Brown wrote: What do you mean by Uncategorized? If you feel there is something that will make the forum better I am sure that it can be looked at by the management. good to hear. If you look at http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ you will see topic categories. That is what I mean. Did you not see the same list for Writer, Calc, etc on the LibreOffice forum? See http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5215855/forum.png for a short list from there. Andy When I go to http://libreofficeforum.org/ all I see is a list of Recent Posts. There is no link to go to separate applications. Larry Try http://libreofficeforum.org/forum . That is what I use and it gives the list as seen in the screen shot. Leaving the /forum off takes you directly to the Recent Post layout. I am going to talk to the owner about this. Andy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/04/24 12:43 PM Andy Brown wrote: This comes as a surprise to me. I do not see any ads before or after I login. Andy You won't see them if you have AdBlock or other ad blocking extensions for your browser. That doesn't change the fact that there is a commercial aspect to the forum. Larry A user can disable the ads for his account. Andy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
I have no issues with a forum that is commercial presumably to [b]cover costs[/b]. As Andy says, the ads are easily blocked (in that I had no need to take specific steps to block ads from that site). One more advantage of forums is that sig files are restricted in length and readers aren't subjected to lengthy sig files that are sometimes advertisement. There's proof of how sig files can be abused in this mailing list. For whatever reason, if a forum by the TDF is not desirable by the power-that-be, we just have to live with the fact. On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.netwrote: A user can disable the ads for his account. Andy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:21:03PM -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/04/24 12:14 PM adept techlists - kazar wrote: Ah, OK, i just searched for libreoffice forum and found http://en.libreofficeforum.org/. Uncategorized, and I believe forums with categories are better learning tools. Plus, even though I started from the en. subdomain and selected English as my language on the home page, when I registered a new account the email instructions were: That forum includes commercial ads. I will not support a forum driven by commercial interests. Where? I saw none. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:51:53PM -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote: You won't see them if you have AdBlock or other ad blocking extensions for your browser. That doesn't change the fact that there is a commercial aspect to the forum. With Adlock and noscript disabled I see no ads. Larry -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
so - If you think that neither of the OO.o forums are good alternatives what would you suggest? If http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum is going to be sticking around, I'd happily suggest it, but I just don't know what Oracle will do with it. Jason Corfman comput...@corfyscorner.com - www.corfyscorner.com -- Take back the Internet! www.getfirefox.com and www.getthunderbird.com -- Get Legal - Get LibreOffice http://www.libreoffice.org Linux user #384496 - Ubuntu User #15390 On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:34 AM, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 20:15 -0400, Jason Corfman wrote: From my perspective, there are two major OpenOffice.org forums, and if you ask me, right now, neither are very good alternatives. The first is http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum. While it is a community forum, it was set up back in 2007 on (then) Sun servers, which are currently controlled by Oracle. Considering last week's announcement from Oracle about turning OpenOffice.org over to the community, you have to wonder how long Oracle will allow that forum to be hosted on their servers, and if it gets booted off, where will it go? Hi Jason, I think that is precisely what prompted Ricardo to venture over here and ask the question he did - he and some of others where looking to reach out and see if this group might be willing to step in if that happened - It didn't go so well. so - If you think that neither of the OO.o forums are good alternatives what would you suggest? Also - There is already ancillary forums going up that are LibreOffice specific, or at least carry the LibO name, two are German language only (one straight phpBB and one a Joomla mod) and one multi language (a Drupal mod), including English and German for that matter, so three German language web forums already . Thanks Drew Jensen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
From my perspective, there are two major OpenOffice.org forums, and if you ask me, right now, neither are very good alternatives. The first is http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum. While it is a community forum, it was set up back in 2007 on (then) Sun servers, which are currently controlled by Oracle. Considering last week's announcement from Oracle about turning OpenOffice.org over to the community, you have to wonder how long Oracle will allow that forum to be hosted on their servers, and if it gets booted off, where will it go? The second is http://www.oooforum.org. The person who set it up wanted to help support OpenOffice.org, but unfortunately, he has been largely absent for years. It was dissatisfaction with the running of this forum that led many moderators and users to fork and set up the previously mentioned forum. The OOoForum is getting slammed with spam, and the software running the site hasn't been updated in years (not since well before the 2007 split), not to mention the fact that the userbase is not what it once was. But I do believe that forums are generally easier for users than mailing lists, but right now, I can't really recommend either of these alternatives. Jason Corfman comput...@corfyscorner.com - www.corfyscorner.com -- Take back the Internet! www.getfirefox.com and www.getthunderbird.com -- Get Legal - Get LibreOffice http://www.libreoffice.org Linux user #384496 - Ubuntu User #15390 On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 3:11 PM, RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com wrote: Well, even if I'd said that the ancient forums vs mailing lists war was not the point but *what people use*, the forums vs. mailing lists useless fight came again... At first I was tempted to refer how the English forums have near 200 new message each day and talk about the madness it would be to receive near 200 mails each day. I was tempted to talk about how I'm giving on-line support to users since a long time (I started using computers more than 25 years ago) and justify the fact that I know quite well the advantages and disadvantages of every possible communication system in use for the last 20 years... Many things... But I'm giving up. Have a nice day! And don't worry to answer me, I'm unsubscribing from the mailing list. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 20:15 -0400, Jason Corfman wrote: From my perspective, there are two major OpenOffice.org forums, and if you ask me, right now, neither are very good alternatives. The first is http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum. While it is a community forum, it was set up back in 2007 on (then) Sun servers, which are currently controlled by Oracle. Considering last week's announcement from Oracle about turning OpenOffice.org over to the community, you have to wonder how long Oracle will allow that forum to be hosted on their servers, and if it gets booted off, where will it go? Hi Jason, I think that is precisely what prompted Ricardo to venture over here and ask the question he did - he and some of others where looking to reach out and see if this group might be willing to step in if that happened - It didn't go so well. so - If you think that neither of the OO.o forums are good alternatives what would you suggest? Also - There is already ancillary forums going up that are LibreOffice specific, or at least carry the LibO name, two are German language only (one straight phpBB and one a Joomla mod) and one multi language (a Drupal mod), including English and German for that matter, so three German language web forums already . Thanks Drew Jensen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hello Aqualung, 2011/4/17 aqualung xfekdcugj...@mailinator.com See, I learned about this forum (it isn't really a forum, it's something concocted out of mailing lists to sort of resemble a real forum) by accident one month ago, from a http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/03/17/flattr-us/ blog comment by Florian Effenberger . My suggestion to advertise the existence of this Nabble widely has gone unheeded. Honi soit qui mal y pense. A week ago I http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/I-am-downloading-LibreOffice-to-try-it-out-td2790818i20.html#a2802923 suggested that talks be opened about collaboration with the http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ premier volunteer OpenOffice forum . There was only one unfavorable response, otherwise silence. So, how are the hundreds of thousands of LibreOffice users going to get assistance for their urgent questions? Please don't tell me mailing lists, that's a laugh. The numbers tell the story: 2629 topics in Dev, 802 topics in Users. But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still don't get the point. I have been posting comments here for a month, engaging in some discussions, because I want to learn about open source in general, open-source office software, efforts to combat anti-competitive practices, and who the people deeply involved are and how they act. My impressions are decidedly mixed. It doesn't appear to be about the users first and foremost. The few users who manage to find their way here aren't always served well. I've seen answers that are out in left field, i.e., unconnected to the question, or no answers at all. http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Writer-Problem-with-modern-typefaces-having-more-than-the-standard-styles-td2794737.html This person is still waiting for an answer to a question asked nearly two weeks ago, already containing a detailed description of the problem and links to bug reports etc. I keep hearing freedom, but is it about the freedom of users from being locked into a proprietary file format... or the freedom of unattached software developers to get their patches committed? Do people here really believe that a community of unpaid enthusiasts can take the place of a major corporation, or several, putting dozens of experienced professional developers to work Monday thru Friday, month after month? If so, it's a pipe dream! I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about. It's not a pipe dream, it's not about whether people are paid and unpaid, and it's not about serving users as if they were customers either. It's more complex than that (see my take on it: http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2011/03/17/what-does-community-mean-part-2/) and it's not a pipe dream, because Free and Open Source Software is now an important part of IT, whether backed by corporations or not. Best, Charles. Coming back to the call for a forum, why not let the users decide how they would prefer to ask for assistance? Put up a banner on all your websites advertising a poll and give the options: (1) Create new forum from scratch (2) Join forces with http://www.oooforum.org/ (3) Join forces with http://user.services.openoffice.org/ (4) Mailing lists (5) ... (6) ... (7) ... (8) ... Let the poll run for a month and then implement the top one or two vote-getters. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Forums-again-tp2830659p2831151.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Le Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:26:23 -0700 (PDT), aqualung xfekdcugj...@mailinator.com a écrit : Charles-H. Schulz wrote: But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still don't get the point. Why aren't the users of LibreOffice being told about them? www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ is the Help page. Let's see what it says: For user support, we have: * Mailing lists: the user support mailing list address is our main channel for LibreOffice users needing help with a problem [...]index. * IRC channels: come chat with us live on IRC at freenode.net [...] * FAQs: we are compiling a list of frequently-asked questions. [...] * Documentation: Check our documentation download page [...] * System requirements: Read the system requirements [...] * Installation instructions: [...] * Accessibility information: Read these accessibility tips [...] That's it! The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near the top. It's not anywhere on the page! Why haven't you approached that forum's management to discuss integration with LibreOffice (including branding and design)? What is this if not a sign of extreme disregard for the wants and needs of ordinary people using the software, most of whom are uncomfortable with, or resistant to, using IRC or mailing lists? I really don't think it's an extreme disregard for users or forums. Why do you even think we would want to disregard them? Please don't talk to me as if I'm selling you something. TDF is not your ice cream vendor, and we're not a supermarket either. Also you're voicing one opinion, not an everlasting truth. We are going to deal with these issues as soon as we can, so please be patient. We've only existed for 6 months and I can assure you that we had a gazillion other things to do, some much more important, some other less important than your issue. But we'll deal with it in time. I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about. It's not a pipe dream, it's not about whether people are paid and unpaid, and it's not about serving users as if they were customers either. It's more complex than that (see my take on it: http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2011/03/17/what-does-community-mean-part-2/) and it's not a pipe dream, because Free and Open Source Software is now an important part of IT, whether backed by corporations or not. Charles, I read that weeks ago and was less than impressed then. Your text has the starry-eyed quality of utopian socialism. Socialism? IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Canonical, Google, Oracle, etc. are hardly socialists. But then you may want to read more on www.opensource.org , www.opensource.com and www.fsf.org I glanced at http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ to get an idea of the people on the board of TDF. There seems to be a huge excess of producers and a dearth of consumers. Surely there are many organizations with 100+ seats of OpenOffice/LibreOffice, but I don't see any representatives from one of them on the board. We would love to have users contributing to TDF, and I'm sure you already read our bylaws. The point is what you contribute as it makes the project go round and grow. Best, Charles. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Forums-again-tp2830659p2831593.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi aqualung, *, aqualung schrieb: Charles-H. Schulz wrote: But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still don't get the point. Why aren't the users of LibreOffice being told about them? Whom do You accuse here? www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ is the Help page. Let's see what it says: For user support, we have: * Mailing lists: the user support mailing list address is our main channel for LibreOffice users needing help with a problem [...]index. * IRC channels: come chat with us live on IRC at freenode.net [...] * FAQs: we are compiling a list of frequently-asked questions. [...] * Documentation: Check our documentation download page [...] * System requirements: Read the system requirements [...] * Installation instructions: [...] * Accessibility information: Read these accessibility tips [...] That's it! The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near the top. It's not anywhere on the page! What did You *act* to get it there? Why haven't you approached that forum's management to discuss integration with LibreOffice (including branding and design)? Whom do You ask? This question is one You should ask yourself: Why haven't *You* approached to do so? What is this if not a sign of extreme disregard for the wants and needs of ordinary people using the software, most of whom are uncomfortable with, or resistant to, using IRC or mailing lists? indeed! *You* did notice that issue and what was *Your* action? Again: whom do You accuse? Who should act, if not You? I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about. An Open Source Software community is a place to *act* rather than complain. [..] Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Aqualung already listed the content of the get-help page and the lack of any reference to existing forums and that is my main point too (don't worry, I'll not talk about socialism nor capitalism... ;) ). I'll not quote anyone in particular here, so let's see if I can make the whole idea more clear by itself. For whatever reason normal people do not use mailing lists nor irc channels. This people who arrives to that get-help page searching for help with their problems will not find solutions on an easy way. And people who cannot find a solution on an easy way will not use a product. Is everything about trust: people will trust a product not because they can use it for free (people usually do not consider idealogical issues like file formats nor open code when choosing their solutions), usually they only look if that software can solve their *immediate* problem on an easy way. And that of course include how they get help when they have a problem. If on that get-help page you say even if there is no warranty you'll get an answer there, we trust the people who maintain that board so use it with confidence and good luck you will help a lot more people. That, together with dialogue, is a possible official collaboration. Communication with people is the main issue here. Maybe my first message had a very low level of patience, my fault, sorry. But that was because I consider that having a clear position on this topic is of a great importance. Cheers Ricardo -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 17/04/2011 22:33, RGB ES wrote: Aqualung already listed the content of the get-help page and the lack of any reference to existing forums and that is my main point too (don't worry, I'll not talk about socialism nor capitalism... ;) ). I'll not quote anyone in particular here, so let's see if I can make the whole idea more clear by itself. Did you referenced it in the es website? For whatever reason normal people do not use mailing lists nor irc channels. I've not the money to use a forum, strange isn't it, I may not be normal? This people who arrives to that get-help page searching for help with their problems will not find solutions on an easy way. And people who cannot find a solution on an easy way will not use a product. oh, and why didn't they go to the forum, too complicated? Is everything about trust: people will trust a product not because they can use it for free (people usually do not consider idealogical issues like file formats nor open code when choosing their solutions), usually they only look if that software can solve their *immediate* problem on an easy way. And that of course include how they get help when they have a problem. ah, in the country I leave, using a product without pirating it make you in the safe way of expressing yourself, just a point of view however. And by the way, even in France, where the liberty of expression is respected (in some way) free software in ministry is also a political choice, so sorry if I don't caution your reasoning, it's a bit leak for me for justifying a dedicated forum, in fact, I don't see where you're going. If on that get-help page you say even if there is no warranty you'll get an answer there, we trust the people who maintain that board so use it with confidence and good luck you will help a lot more people. Ha, with confidence and good luck? That, together with dialogue, is a possible official collaboration. Communication with people is the main issue here. Maybe my first message had a very low level of patience, my fault, sorry. But that was because I consider that having a clear position on this topic is of a great importance. the clear position is as usual and what Christian answered you, why do you want to divide resources where they have proven to be effective? you are missing collaboration? so work to be collaborative with the forum, don't reproach the entire project of something you didn't achieve. Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
2011/4/17 sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: On 17/04/2011 22:33, RGB ES wrote: Aqualung already listed the content of the get-help page and the lack of any reference to existing forums and that is my main point too (don't worry, I'll not talk about socialism nor capitalism... ;) ). I'll not quote anyone in particular here, so let's see if I can make the whole idea more clear by itself. Did you referenced it in the es website? I thought there was a recent problem because the ES site was different from the main site, so no, I did not referenced it there and never will do if there is no previous agreement. I'll not answer the rest of your mail. Have a nice day -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi aqualung, *, aqualung schrieb: [..] Anyway, I'm glad that people are responding. I guess it proves the adage, the squeaky wheel gets the grease Tell you what, give me the keys to that page and I'll fix it for ya. Do You have an account on the CMS? If not, someone might have the link at hand for registering. Alternatively, I'll see if I can grab the HTML for editing and then I'll whip up a proposal for you guys to vote on. Deal? I'd assume there is no problem to get an author's account. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
