Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
Actually, I like paper as a prototyping tool, but I do more than one type of prototype, so flexibility is more essential than visual specificity. http://technical-writing.dionysius.com/ technical writing | consulting | development Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:40:59, David Malouf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the end what Andrei is saying (at least my interpretation) is that detailed models have to be a part of our design process if we are to indeed consider ourselves designers. Designers make things ... not semblances of things or virtualizations of things. To me one of the biggest failings of IxD and IA is that we have traditionally let other people create the things that we conceptualize. We immediately loose our value to the process and fight to explain ourselves. Take two steps back for a second. Consider an architect, you know, the real ones that design buildings. They make nothing as part of a project, just as I make nothing as part of a project. So not you don't have to make anything to be a 'designer' - you just need to specify and guide. Depending on the role and make up of a team I will do differing things in different ways - for example my current project is a software project and I'm using real interface looking elements in my page designs as opposed to web stuff where it's all very lo-fi. If you're saying that having visual design skills or technical skills are a benefit then yes, I agree. I have a smattering of both and they help, I am totaly capable of putting together a website including CMS, graphic design and a fair amount of scripting. BUT others can do it better - so I work as part of a team. I also hold that good experience design requires a degree of seperation between design and implimentation. Why? Because the engineering mindset is not the same as the design mind set and tends to lead to feature rich and finely engineered solutions that, well, suck. You can end up with a Nokia N95 instead of an iPhone, to use a product design example. Nokia - what happened? Because you can do everything does not mean you should and often it's better you don't. -- Stewart Dean *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
A couple-few careers ago I was an aircraft mechanic at Boeing, first in the mockup shop, then on the flight test modification crew. I installed, removed, tweaked, measured, and cussed at a lot of very early stage designs. Sometimes those designs came from engineers who got it, like the two guys who designed the very complex over-wing emergency exit doors on the 757. I must have built three or four iterative miniature versions in the mockup shop with those guys looking over my shoulder and talking with me a couple times a shift until they were happy with the prototype. Years later this stands out in my mind as an example of a great prototyping collaboration. And then there were prototype modules I needed to install, say beneath an airliner's cockpit in a very confined space, where it was plain that the design engineer had never before held a screwdriver and hadn't the faintest clue in the world how basic mechanical things worked. Same goes with webcraft and software. Maybe you don't need to be an expert Java developer or graphic designer or AJAX guru to design for various platforms, but it will sure become instantly apparent to the implementers whether you know squat about how things work (or not). Software prototyping is one way to bridge the gap between design and development skills. Even if you don't become a serious development threat, through hands-on craft work you gain a basic understanding of some of the concerns and mindset that developers and visual designers will apply to your wonderful wireframes and interaction designs. Your informed designs are more likely to be built as-designed rather than recrafted on the developer's forge or tossed as unbuildable (and take it from me this can sure puncture and deflate your poor old ego). Michael Micheletti On Nov 12, 2007 2:21 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact, why would you ever trust an architect who has never picked up a hammer and nail in his life before? I know I wouldn't. I want the guy who built his own house. Or built something with his own two hands. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
Architects create models. In the old days, they created detailed physical models using little sticks of wood and paper. The bigger the project, the more detailed the model. The model would be part of their deliverable. Nowadays, architects often deliver extremely detailed Illustrations and 3D walkthroughs as well as very detailed wood and plastic models. Architects, car designers, aircraft designers, software designers: we all need to build concept models to prove concepts. This happens near the end of a design cycle as the model-building requires a lot of work - a lot of which is not design related. My models are my creations. I make them. Web and Flash designers often end up actually making the site. Likewise, Blend developers are starting to deliver the actual presentation layer to dev teams. This is a sneaky change and the temptation is to build our concept models using the same physical method that we use to deliver the actual presentation layer. I think this is a mistake because inevitably, we turn our concept models over to the dev team prematurely. David and Stewart, you are correct: designing is not building. We can also be builders, using tools such as Blend and Silverlight, but we need to be disciplined and follow our design process thoroughly. We need to build our concept models and be as detailed as necessary with these models in order to prove that our designs work well. I know for myself that when I take shortcuts, I cheat the product that I am working on. Dave -Original Message- From: Stew Dean [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:11 PM To: 'David Malouf' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:40:59, David Malouf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the end what Andrei is saying (at least my interpretation) is that detailed models have to be a part of our design process if we are to indeed consider ourselves designers. Designers make things ... not semblances of things or virtualizations of things. To me one of the biggest failings of IxD and IA is that we have traditionally let other people create the things that we conceptualize. We immediately loose our value to the process and fight to explain ourselves. Take two steps back for a second. Consider an architect, you know, the real ones that design buildings. They make nothing as part of a project, just as I make nothing as part of a project. So not you don't have to make anything to be a 'designer' - you just need to specify and guide. Depending on the role and make up of a team I will do differing things in different ways - for example my current project is a software project and I'm using real interface looking elements in my page designs as opposed to web stuff where it's all very lo-fi. If you're saying that having visual design skills or technical skills are a benefit then yes, I agree. I have a smattering of both and they help, I am totaly capable of putting together a website including CMS, graphic design and a fair amount of scripting. BUT others can do it better - so I work as part of a team. I also hold that good experience design requires a degree of seperation between design and implimentation. Why? Because the engineering mindset is not the same as the design mind set and tends to lead to feature rich and finely engineered solutions that, well, suck. You can end up with a Nokia N95 instead of an iPhone, to use a product design example. Nokia - what happened? Because you can do everything does not mean you should and often it's better you don't. -- Stewart Dean *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
If you had said Paper is not a prototyping tool for visual-centric, electronic interactive devices, then I might agree with you. But interaction extends far beyond just computers, cell phones, and iPods. Paper is just a tool. Crude perhaps, but still in the tool box of many imaginative people. And let's not forget the legions of designers who must work with the tools their employers pay for. Often, that's Powerpoint. Sad, yes. But invalid? Hardly. Sounds like your true position is Working in visually-centric electronic media as I do, I wouldn't waste my time with paper, powerpoint, or Visio. I prefer to use X, Y, Z. Fair enough. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=22174 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
On Nov 12, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Bob Miller wrote: If you had said Paper is not a prototyping tool for visual-centric, electronic interactive devices, then I might agree with you. But interaction extends far beyond just computers, cell phones, and iPods. So this is a perfect opportunity to ask who on this list does *not* work in the high-tech sector, doing interaction design for software, web based products or products that include software components? Is that number more than 10% of the association's population? Paper is just a tool. Crude perhaps, but still in the tool box of many imaginative people. Of course it's a tool! That's been my entire point from the beginning. It's a design tool. I've only said it's not a prototyping tool or medium. And let's not forget the legions of designers who must work with the tools their employers pay for. Often, that's Powerpoint. Sad, yes. But invalid? Hardly. Anyone who calls themselves a designer and is forced to use PowerPoint as a design tool because their employer won't buy them something like even Fireworks for the same price seriously needs to change jobs. That's a ridiculous condition and an example I find absurd to the tenth degree. Hell... even Photoshop Elements is better for designing digital products than PowerPoint. Sounds like your true position is Working in visually-centric electronic media as I do, I wouldn't waste my time with paper, powerpoint, or Visio. I prefer to use X, Y, Z. I wish people would stop putting words in mouth. I use paper all the time as a primary design tool, but not as means for prototyping. However, I do feel PowerPoint and Visio are indeed a wastes of time as design tools. -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
My main beef on this thread is that goofy statements are made, (paper is not a prototyping tool and the only way to design complex software is with high fidelity prototyping), and then these statements are backed up with mumbo jumbo speak, posturing to be enlightened thinking, and then double tracked back upon: For example: I want to jump in here. I've been reading on the sidelines and I have to say I'm really dismayed with the community as well., ... I hear a few things from the group which are all true, but further don't contradict what you are saying either:... 1. prototypes are iterative and change in fidelity over time. ... 2. What is a prototype anyway? Who cares? It means what it means to you? ... Given the above 2 statements and that Dave indicates paper is a prototyping tool, and that this posts title is Paper is not a prototyping tool don't these concepts contradict the title of this post? Should this posts title be interpreted as an ironic statement reinforcing that paper is a prototyping technique, but there are other techniques as well? In the end what Andrei is saying (at least my interpretation) is that detailed models have to be a part of our design process if we are to indeed consider ourselves designers. I'm not at all convinced that the above statement is true. I would agree high fidelity prototyping can be very good for sure. I would also say that you could design a great product that could be built without high fidelity prototyping, how about good design via well annotated diagrams and screens? To me one of the biggest failings of IxD and IA is that we have traditionally let other people create the things that we conceptualize. We immediately loose our value to the process and fight to explain ourselves. Not sure I agree with the above statement either - a designer who can articulate their ideas, in any manner, which then can be built be that built as a prototype or as the end product, could be the most as successful designer, (given they had the support team around them). In architecture, an architect may never build models, or do high fidelity drawings, rather they may have a team that builds models for them, (this is what Frank Gehery does at least, pretty sure Frank Lloyd Wright did this as well). Hence Dave's below statement misses the point of the architect and craftsman: He who controls the presentation controls the relationship. He who controls production, controls the product. Basically what I would like to point out is there's more then one way to skin a cat. And a great designer could very well be the worst craftsman. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
On Nov 12, 2007, at 12:50 PM, Rich Rogan wrote: And a great designer could very well be the worst craftsman. I'm not going to reply. I think this statement says it all about why I disagree. I have yet to meet a great designer who was not also a great craftsman. -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
Well Andrei... I've got to admit, I'm OK at best with Javascript, and would develop pretty crap AJAX code, hence I hire great craftsmen who are JS and CSS wizards. I design the concept, they build it as per my spec, which is often on paper or even on a whiteboard. Simply put, there are better skilled individuals to do certain tasks, and someone who is a JS/CSS guru,may not be the best person to architect the entire system, (big picture thinking is not synonymous with great craftsmanship, although the architect has to be knowledgeable/open to the latest techniques). Technology is changing so fast that it is often a different skill set with big picture vision VS guru level latest coding techniques. Have you never heard of great architects who were not AutoCad geniuses? On 11/12/07, Andrei Herasimchuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 12, 2007, at 12:50 PM, Rich Rogan wrote: And a great designer could very well be the worst craftsman. I'm not going to reply. I think this statement says it all about why I disagree. I have yet to meet a great designer who was not also a great craftsman. -- Andrei Herasimchuk *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
On Nov 12, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Rich Rogan wrote: Technology is changing so fast that it is often a different skill set with big picture vision VS guru level latest coding techniques. I agree with this. And here at our studio I have the same luxury having folks who do the brunt of the that work as well. But I don't keep up with the latest technology simply because I'm waiting for it to settle down, not because I believe I should not be required to code front ends for the software I design. That's probably a large difference between me and lots of other folks. In fact, I hope the technology settles down quickly so I can finally dive back in and build things with my own two hands again. I miss the days when I use to prototype interfaces with Director. So much has changed since then, and while I can build web products with my own two hands using XHTML+CSS+JS, I've purposefully kept myself away from building Flash prototypes and things with Silverlight because I'm waiting for something to win so I can invest the right amount of time in learning it. If nothing changes in the next three years, I'll just dive back in with whatever is there again. Have you never heard of great architects who were not AutoCad geniuses? All the time. However, building virtual models in AutoCad is a far cry from building physical scale models. I think if you asked a lot of good architects, if they'd say they'd have no problem building the design at a scale level off the computer if they had the time between projects. In fact, why would you ever trust an architect who has never picked up a hammer and nail in his life before? I know I wouldn't. I want the guy who built his own house. Or built something with his own two hands. -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
On Nov 12, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Robert Hoekman, Jr. wrote: How do you define craftsman? A person who practices and is highly skilled in a craft, and does so with their own two hands. In other words, someone who can design and build something with their own two hands. -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
Is this thread related to the idea the Paper is not a Prototyping tool? Or is this a semantic discussion on the boundaries of job/skill description? As far as the statement Paper is not Prototyping Tool this really seems like a ridiculous statement. Mustard on a hot dog bun could be used as a prototyping tool. Lets get real here, if this is a semantic discussion related to job description of who does what, what are we doing here? Maybe we should be working for a Union defining who can and cannot use a hammer. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
Maria Johansson (at Findwise in Guthenburg) and I presented a paper at HCI 2007 on what different stakeholder groups focused when presented with UI-sketches, a written high-level scenario, and a computer prototypes. The scenario did not facilitate aesthetic nor ethical viewpoints, nor did it facilitate operational or perceptual topics. The prototype did not facilitate discussions on the overarching concept of the design, to the same extent as the sketches did, but it did facilitate operational issues. The sketches in general gave the broadest discussion. If you are interested in the paper: http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.13315 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=22174 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Paper is not a prototyping tool
Andrei said: This is a general comment mostly for Dave Malouf, but the sentiment Fred is expressing is precisely why I think most interaction designers or the field of interaction design is a subset of interface design or the larger digital product design picture and not the other way around. There's nothing wrong with this in and of itself, but you have to recognize that if this is all you want to do, you are only doing one component of the larger digital product design picture. interface design is a subset of product design. interaction design is a subset of product design as well. interface design is ONLY a subset of product design. Interaction design is a subset of product and service design. interface is the presentation layer of a product ... interaction or behavioral design works at the product level but also at the eco-system level. Too bad using our great tool you can't easily spawn off new threads from existing threads. Note to self ... put in next requirements. ;) -- dave . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=22174 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
