Silent majority (was: supporting our fellowship representative)

[bzg]

Hi all,

I don't know nothing about what's been talked about in this thread.

This is just a reminder that there are probably many subscribers like
me who don't have a clue of what is at stake here.

Perhaps you should gather in a field, organize a tournament and come
back when someone wins -- or have a good discussion somewhere IRL?

In any case, please keep in mind that some readers may be completely
lost and partially fed up with the spectacle.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien
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Re: Daniel on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Andreas Nilsson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi Stefan.

I couldn't help but notice the nature of how disappointed you seem to
be at Bernhard. I don't know what Bernhard has done in the past days
that this debate might have taken place but I do know that stating a
view on a doing that hasn't been done is wrongful.

What has Bernhard done to be put to shame and go away in your thinking?

Kind regards,
Andreas

On Wed, 2018-09-05 at 18:03 +0100, Stefan Uygur wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 7:42 AM Bernhard E. Reiter 
> wrote:
> > please read the exchange again and look at the quotes,
> > I was asking what ostend...@gmail.com meant by quoting from an HTML
> > mail by 
> > matthias.ha...@zoho.eu.
> > 
> > BTW: as both email addresses have no direct hits on an internet
> > search engine, 
> > they strongly support your points and they have similiarities in
> > writing 
> > styles, I'm just asking you directly: What is your connection to
> > these email 
> > addresses?
> > 
> 
> I cannot believe that an organization like FSFE has a little minded
> people like you Bernhard. Yes I am talking to you with the specific
> tone and directly because you are the disgrace of Free Software and
> the community. Otherwise you will have not written such a shameful
> insinuation. If you have had just googled, for the sake of your
> intelligence, my name, you will have seen that that email is
> associated to my name.
> 
> The fact that I do not write often in this list does not give me less
> entitlements and gives you more etc. I am the supporter of Free
> Software and the community and I promote both equally for more than 2
> decades. 
> 
> I pay the community and the organization for which you work for and
> you are paid for, you and your president Matthias. You don't pay me
> but I do pay you. 
> 
> Therefore I believe I have more entitlements then you do and if I
> demand explanation and the intervention of the legal representative,
> which is the president, that person either have to show up or it has
> to go away.Because I am not in the mood to allow such person to
> represent free software and the community.  
> 
> I am sick of receiving your emails and you speaking on behalf of
> Matthias. In the community like Free Software there is no space for
> ass kissers. 
> 
> Shame on you.
> 
> Go home all of you.
>  
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Re: using abuse to avoid serious issues on discussion@

[lukerogers]

5. Sep 2018 21:24 by bernh...@fsfe.org :

> My point is not about attacking you, but about getting back to a situation  


 

The point most people would get from your emails over the last weeks would be 
that you are an immature bully who probably doesn't have a job.  You gave us an 
election, you didn't like the result and for more than a year you've been 
cranky like this, making life hell for this poor volunteer who took on the 
role.  Bernhard, you have do all the things you accuse him of and a lot worse.

You burnt the relationship with FSF, trolling them for years, it pops up every 
now and then on this list and you can't deny it.

Burnt the FSFE Rheinland community when you shamelessly exploited the 
volunteers as much as you could and then shut their office.

Burnt the fellowship, dumbed us down to be supporters with our
representative caught in the crossfire.  Of course if it was a real
fellowship then the fellows would be defending him but it looks
like Daniel is the captain going down with his (fellow)ship after any
serious fellows used the lifeboats to get as far away as possible.

Half of you are playing a game pretending nothing is wrong and the other half
of the people in FSFE must be just really gullible or asleep

What a freak show

Daniel, maybe you do need to resign.  Nothing more you can do here.  After they
stopped elections, you didn't need to say anything, arrogance like that
speaks for itself!

Don't leave because Bernhard wants it but because
when you lie down with dogs, you'll get up with fleas.  Somebody like
you is above people like this.   Resigning requires courage and true leadership 
and that's why Matthias Kirschner can't understand.


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Re: using abuse to avoid serious issues on discussion@

[bernhard]

Hi Daniel,

Am Mittwoch, 5. September 2018, 20:21:08 CEST schrieb Daniel Pocock:
> A private message sent to the GA list just yesterday contradicts what
> you said.  

I don't think it does.  I've tried to explain internally and externally to you 
why I see your behaviour as damaging to FSFE . And I've asked you to leave 
FSFE for the better.

> What is really sinister about your attack on me

My point is not about attacking you, but about getting back to a situation  
where me and others that want to do work towards furthering Free Software can 
do so. Which to me means working without you. There is no point around it that 
your style and way of working is incompatible with what I believe can work
within FSFE. This is about us and a line we need to draw. I've tried much to 
explain it to you, as I believe that everybody needs to be given a fair chance 
to understand. I am sorry to read that it is not helpful for you, thus I'll 
stop explaining and will most likely ignore most of your posts from now on.

Best Regards,
Bernhard

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Re: using abuse to avoid serious issues on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Florian Snow]

Hi Daniel,


Daniel Pocock  writes:
> A private message sent to the GA list just yesterday contradicts what
> you said.

I am sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to say.


> Would you like to republish all the GA mails in public or
> would you prefer to simply acknowledge you were wrong and withdraw
> everything you said?

I am sorry, but still no clue.  Either way, I know at least some of
Bernhard's comments to be true, so if one were wrong, why would he
withdraw everything said?  By the way, you repeatedly make statements
here that you must at least by now know are not true, so please apply
the same standard to yourself.


> Matthias was linking your concerns about "identity abuse" to the FSF /
> FSFE question.  It is extraordinary to see how far people will go to
> avoid questions about that, you went into this horrible and unjustified
> tirade against me, makes me feel like I took a bullet for RMS.

The FSF and the FSFE are sister organizations and I see no actual
identity abuse there.  I am not sure which question people are avoiding
there and I have no idea which figurative bullet you are taking about.

Happy hacking!
Florian
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Re: to git or not to git

[Alessandro Rubini]

> Using Mercurial instead of git is also a bit like using another kernel
> instead of Linux. It seems unnecessary to use something else when you already
> have something that works, but it's useful to have working options in case
> you find yourself using a device without a Linux port but with FreeBSD
> support, for example.

True. Having two options instead of one is always good.

Today I read some (most?) documents on the project's site, and I see
that it's very similar, but on the flip side it looks like interactive
rebases are not as easy as they are with git, and I really use them a
lot (I write several features and test them all together, so I often
squash my fixes in the original commit before pushing).

Also, I don't like much the data model (which is why, I think, changing
the whole history is not as easy as with git).

Thank you none the less, it was interesting reading.

/alessandro
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Re: selective censorship (aka some words from your list-admins)

[Stefan Uygur]

And for once l quote you totally.

It is ridiculous and shameful behaviour of this individual. Outrageous.

They all should resign unanimously because l see no one stopping this
madness from inside.

On Wed, 5 Sep 2018, 19:25 Daniel Pocock,  wrote:

>
>
> On 05/09/18 16:49, Erik Albers wrote:
>
> > The list administration would like to help bring back a good tone and
> > discussion culture by moderating the discussion if necessary and for now
> we
> > set new subscriptions to the list on moderation.
> >
>
> The most offensive accusations made on the list today were not from new
> subscribers, they appear to be made by a GA member from Germany, in fact
> former country coordinator for Germany.  Out of your respect for your
> request for being friendly, I'll avoid repeating his name again.
>
> One of those posts is so offensive and inaccurate that I would kindly
> request that if you are willing to censor new subscribers, you also
> censor that GA member by removing his post from the public archive.
>
> I would also request that you escalate that particular post to the CARE
> team.
>
> The root cause of all this appears to be the executive's decision to
> attack the fellowship representative with an ultimately unsuccessful
> motion to prematurely terminate his membership of FSFE e.V.  I remain of
> the opinion that the resignation of the president may be more effective
> in helping the community move on from that than tweaking moderation
> settings.
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel
>
> FSFE Fellowship Representative
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Re: selective censorship (aka some words from your list-admins)

[Daniel Pocock]

On 05/09/18 16:49, Erik Albers wrote:

> The list administration would like to help bring back a good tone and
> discussion culture by moderating the discussion if necessary and for now we
> set new subscriptions to the list on moderation.
>

The most offensive accusations made on the list today were not from new
subscribers, they appear to be made by a GA member from Germany, in fact
former country coordinator for Germany.  Out of your respect for your
request for being friendly, I'll avoid repeating his name again.

One of those posts is so offensive and inaccurate that I would kindly
request that if you are willing to censor new subscribers, you also
censor that GA member by removing his post from the public archive.

I would also request that you escalate that particular post to the CARE
team.

The root cause of all this appears to be the executive's decision to
attack the fellowship representative with an ultimately unsuccessful
motion to prematurely terminate his membership of FSFE e.V.  I remain of
the opinion that the resignation of the president may be more effective
in helping the community move on from that than tweaking moderation
settings.

Regards,

Daniel

FSFE Fellowship Representative
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Re: Nacht der langen Messer on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Daniel Pocock]

On 05/09/18 08:42, Bernhard E. Reiter wrote:
> Hi Daniel,
> 
> Am Dienstag 04 September 2018 23:22:33 schrieb Daniel Pocock:
>> are you trying to change/misrepresent the intention of
>> somebody else's email?
> 
> please read the exchange again and look at the quotes,
> I was asking what ostend...@gmail.com meant by quoting from an HTML mail by 
> matthias.ha...@zoho.eu.
> 
> BTW: as both email addresses have no direct hits on an internet search 
> engine, 
> they strongly support your points and they have similiarities in writing 
> styles, I'm just asking you directly: What is your connection to these email 
> addresses?
> 

Putting my name in the subject line suggests you are just a big bully
and don't really care how anybody answers that question because you've
already assumed everybody who doesn't agree with you is in a conspiracy.

I assume everybody else in the community is a fellow and if they are new
I warmly welcome them to the community, whether I agree with them or not.

I previously asked about giving the fellowship representatives a list of
fellows so we can verify when a communication is from somebody in the
fellowship.  I also asked about having a PGP keyring for fellows,
similar to that used for Debian Developers.  Both ideas were rejected
with reasons about privacy.

If FSFE prioritizes privacy and then you complain because you
can't identify somebody posting a message from a possible alias, isn't
that hypocrisy?

Putting my name in the subject line, background searches on people,
accusing people of a "connection", character assassinations, changing
people's words and another heavy-handed message you sent attacking me in
another sub-thread: it all reeks of bullying and comes with a strong
odour of censorship, you continue to help prove the concerns I raised at
the outset.

Maybe other people are afraid to speak up or using aliases because they
don't want to suffer the same intimidation and character assassination?
Chilling.

Regards,

Daniel

FSFE Fellowship Representative






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Re: using abuse to avoid serious issues on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Daniel Pocock]

Bernhard,

A private message sent to the GA list just yesterday contradicts what
you said.  Would you like to republish all the GA mails in public or
would you prefer to simply acknowledge you were wrong and withdraw
everything you said?

What is really sinister about your attack on me is that you weren't even
replying to something I said and the strong point in Matthias H's
message was not about me at all.

Matthias was linking your concerns about "identity abuse" to the FSF /
FSFE question.  It is extraordinary to see how far people will go to
avoid questions about that, you went into this horrible and unjustified
tirade against me, makes me feel like I took a bullet for RMS.

Regards,

Daniel

FSFE Fellowship Representative

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Re: Daniel on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Stefan Uygur]

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 7:42 AM Bernhard E. Reiter  wrote:

>
> please read the exchange again and look at the quotes,
> I was asking what ostend...@gmail.com meant by quoting from an HTML mail
> by
> matthias.ha...@zoho.eu.
>
> BTW: as both email addresses have no direct hits on an internet search
> engine,
> they strongly support your points and they have similiarities in writing
> styles, I'm just asking you directly: What is your connection to these
> email
> addresses?
>
>
I cannot believe that an organization like FSFE has a little minded people
like you Bernhard. Yes I am talking to you with the specific tone and
directly because you are the disgrace of Free Software and the community.
Otherwise you will have not written such a shameful insinuation. If you
have had just googled, for the sake of your intelligence, my name, you will
have seen that that email is associated to my name.

The fact that I do not write often in this list does not give me less
entitlements and gives you more etc. I am the supporter of Free Software
and the community and I promote both equally for more than 2 decades.

I pay the community and the organization for which you work for and you are
paid for, you and your president Matthias. You don't pay me but I do pay
you.

Therefore I believe I have more entitlements then you do and if I demand
explanation and the intervention of the legal representative, which is the
president, that person either have to show up or it has to go away.Because
I am not in the mood to allow such person to represent free software and
the community.

I am sick of receiving your emails and you speaking on behalf of Matthias.
In the community like Free Software there is no space for ass kissers.

Shame on you.

Go home all of you.
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Re: Tone of discussion

[Andreas Nilsson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi Bernhard.

> While we are at speaking as oneselfs:
> Another example I'd find un-acceptable is astro-turfing or using
> sockpuppets
> to make it appear like an opinion is carried by many people.
> What do you think about this?

For opinions, one head one vote. Sock puppets is not good in my opinion
but I don't have more sock puppet accounts to agree with me. :)

Kind regards,
Andreas
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Let us keep being friendly with each other (aka some words from your list-admins)

[Erik Albers]

Dear all,

Exchanging opinions and discussing them in public is very important for our
community. Sometimes, discussions can become emotional and sometimes debaters
use a too offensive language although, possibly unintentionally. In the last
days we have seen some heated debates coming up on this list and individual
messages of those discussions have already been brought to the attention of
your list-admins. It also came to our attention that some of the more
offensive messages were sent from mail accounts that joined this list just
recently.

The list administration would like to help bring back a good tone and
discussion culture by moderating the discussion if necessary and for now we
set new subscriptions to the list on moderation.

But much more important for our discussion culture will be what you bring into
it. A successful method that works for many people is, that if you are upset,
then consider to keep your mail as a draft overnight and re-read it before
sending it the next day. Also it might help to keep your audience in mind:
This list has several hundred subscribers and is archived publicly on the
Internet and indexed by search engines.

Generally the best advice is to always keep in mind that:

The Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE) and its community aim to offer
a friendly and peaceful environment for every participant at the FSFE's
events, online and offline.


All participants should at all times feel at ease to do so without fearing
any form of attack, reprisal or harassment. We ask everybody to be
respectful and considerate towards each other, especially when attempting
to provide constructive criticism.


Thank you very much and looking forward to many fruitful and friendly 
discussions,
Erik for the list-admins




-- 
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Erik Albers | Communication & Community Coordinator | FSFE
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Re: Bernhard lectures on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Bernhard E. Reiter]

Hi Matthias,

Am Mittwoch 05 September 2018 14:16:15 schrieb Matthias Hager:
> My connection with Daniel?  He is our representative, long live our
> representative 

A number of people that were previously supporter or fellows-only have to 
become into internal communication channels and the e.V. membership. 
Mirko is also an active fellowship-seat holder.

The problem with Daniel is that he seems to have an incompatible style of 
working with many people within FSFE (volunteers, staff, supporters).
Main reason seems to be that he sometimes uses personal accusations
and he keeps repeating things, even if they have been explained to him
in many ways. He also does not seem to respect that if he had tried multiple 
times to convince others about a point and did not convince a significant 
number of people, the large majority does not want to discuss a taken 
decision again and again. In addition he seems to take a change that predates 
his involvement in the e.V. and the existing of a motion that make it extra 
clear that he can continue to be active in the e.V. personally. It wasn't 
personal, as many explained to him.

> Looks like you are trying to whip up another excuse to send 
> our rep back to us 
[..] 
> and evade answering serious questions 

In the last week I took an extra effort to explain the situation, which 
included answering many questions, some even multiple times.
Which questions do you want me or FSFE to answer in addition?

> funny FSFE accusing people of trolling and identity abuse, maybe the whole
> organization should be disbanded, the FSFE raison d'etre could  be trolling
> the FSF? 

The FSFE consist of multiple persons, which hold a variety of opinions.
The criticism coming from me was about aggressive phrasing and explicit or 
implicit accusations that I believe we must be intolerant to as a group.
According to who writes what: I wanted to have an open statement for 
clarification, because there were some initial signs. I did appologize
for my writings that came with a great potential for missunderstandings.

To becoming involved with FSFE is to help forming opinions, meet with other 
Free Software people and help promoting Free Software.
(That are two major points from 
https://fsfe.org/contribute/contribute.en.html)

Best Regards,
Bernhard
-- 
FSFE -- Founding Member Support our work for Free Software: 
blogs.fsfe.org/bernhard https://fsfe.org/donate | contribute


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Re: Bernhard lectures on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Matthias Hager]

My connection with Daniel?  He is our representative, long live our 
representative Looks like you are trying to whip up another excuse to send our 
rep back to us in a body bag and evade answering serious questions funny FSFE 
accusing people of trolling and identity abuse, maybe the whole organization 
should be disbanded, the FSFE raison d'etre could  be trolling the FSF? Sent 
using Zoho Mail  On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 12:20:32 +0200 Bernhard E. Reiter 
 wrote  Paul, Am Mittwoch 05 September 2018 11:47:54 
schrieb Paul Boddie: > Although we should always be cautious about whether 
people are who they > claim to be on the Internet, we should also exercise 
restraint in accusing > people of not being who they might say they are. 
Otherwise, we risk denying > someone their voice and ultimately their identity, 
which is a very > undesirable outcome indeed. this I agree to, sorry if my 
email was too direct and could be interpreted as accusation itself. My 
intention was more to create an opportunity to clarify this. As also written in 
my other mail, currently I am not aware of identify abuse on this mailinglist. 
Regards, Bernhard -- FSFE -- Founding Member Support our work for Free 
Software: blogs.fsfe.org/bernhard https://fsfe.org/donate | contribute 
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Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?

[Bernhard E. Reiter]

Hi Stefan,

Am Dienstag 04 September 2018 13:07:28 schrieb Stefan Uygur:
> This is becoming really noisy now, l have asked clearly to stop this debate
> that is running on different threads and let the main representative to
> feedback and respond to issues raised. Not accusations but issues.
> Apparently you ignored that email.

initially I could not see it on the mailinglist. (Due to my mail setup, which 
is now improved.) Sorry for not responding. Let me respond here to your main 
point:

It is also my expectation that FSFE will officially respond. I believe 
Matthias will do this sooner or later, after having spoken the relevant FSFE 
teams.

However I do not necessarily think he has to respond quickly, especially not 
if he feels that all important points have already been raised by others on 
the list. (Otherwise it would come down to a possible denial of service 
method: just call the president and he has to personally respond.)

Best Regards,
Bernhard

-- 
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Re: Daniel on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Bernhard E. Reiter]

Paul,

Am Mittwoch 05 September 2018 11:47:54 schrieb Paul Boddie:
> Although we should always be cautious about whether people are who they
> claim to be on the Internet, we should also exercise restraint in accusing
> people of not being who they might say they are. Otherwise, we risk denying
> someone their voice and ultimately their identity, which is a very
> undesirable outcome indeed.

this I agree to, sorry if my email was too direct and could be interpreted
as accusation itself. My intention was more to create an opportunity to 
clarify this. As also written in my other mail, currently I am not aware of
identify abuse on this mailinglist.

Regards,
Bernhard

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Re: Daniel on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Paul Boddie]

On Wednesday 5. September 2018 08.42.17 Bernhard E. Reiter wrote:
> 
> Am Dienstag 04 September 2018 23:22:33 schrieb Daniel Pocock:
> > are you trying to change/misrepresent the intention of
> > somebody else's email?
> 
> please read the exchange again and look at the quotes,
> I was asking what ostend...@gmail.com meant by quoting from an HTML mail by
> matthias.ha...@zoho.eu.

I think that some people got confused by the message produced by the "Zoho 
Mail" service which evidently has poor-quality plain text output. It was only 
when I explicitly selected the HTML message part that I got something that 
coherently separated the different opinions.

Still, some of the ways of expressing dissatisfaction were not entirely 
constructive or polite, even though I might recognise the underlying 
frustration. And here I support your - Bernhard's - right to continue to 
respond. It is no-one's place to request that discussion be halted and that 
people remain silent in anticipation of an official response.

I think that there are things, perhaps not directly related to representation 
within the FSFE, that can be discussed constructively and which can inform our 
understanding of this very situation. There are hardly hundreds or even tens 
of messages per day in this mailing list, so if someone does not wish to read 
them, may I suggest using a better mail client or reading the online archives 
instead?

> BTW: as both email addresses have no direct hits on an internet search
> engine, they strongly support your points and they have similiarities in
> writing styles, I'm just asking you directly: What is your connection to
> these email addresses?

Well, the former address has been used by someone on this list for quite some 
time. It is therefore possible to review messages going back as far as 2016 to 
determine whether any such suspicions are valid or not.

Although we should always be cautious about whether people are who they claim 
to be on the Internet, we should also exercise restraint in accusing people of 
not being who they might say they are. Otherwise, we risk denying someone 
their voice and ultimately their identity, which is a very undesirable outcome 
indeed.

Paul
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Re: Tone of discussion

[Bernhard E. Reiter]

Hi Andreas,

Am Mittwoch 05 September 2018 08:59:54 schrieb Bernhard E. Reiter:
> While we are at speaking as oneselfs:
> Another example I'd find un-acceptable is astro-turfing or using
> sockpuppets to make it appear like an opinion is carried by many people.

My message could have been missinterpreted as it was in reply to your email.
So just to clarify: it was meant as a general question, while discussing
what is supposed to be acceptable on this list. 

I am not aware of any astro-turfing or sockpuppets on this list.

== Details
As always I've put some email addresses in a search engine if people refer to 
their experience to better understand what they mean, as a number of people 
run a blog or are involved in other organisations. The background is that 
some spam and chatbots are getting more and more sofisticated and if a 
message is phrased very generally or very provocative it does not makes sense 
to respond to the questions. It just unlikely that an email address is used 
the first in public only on this list.
I've asked Daniel about two email addresses, because I found the exchange with 
the quoted HTML email and him strange and hope to clear up unwritten 
suspicions some may have.

Best Regards,
Bernhard

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Re: Tone of discussion

[Bernhard E. Reiter]

Hi Andreas,

Am Mittwoch 05 September 2018 07:31:05 schrieb Andreas Nilsson:
> > Please respect that I can speak out for whomever I'd like, whenever I
> > like.

> I usually don't post here but this is a tone I'm not comfortable with
> from you Bernhard. You don't have an automatic right to copy someone
> else's identity and speak for their behalf, 

I agree that people should speak for themselfs and and this is what I've did.
I've voiced my support of how FSFE and its president currently works
and just like everybody can voice their criticism. Both should be done in a 
civil tone.

> > This is our mailinglist, so it's partly mine and I blieve I can speak
> > out, just like anybody to defend a civil tone here. 
> > The statements you've cited are not civil in my opinion.

> "This is my mailinglist so I can say what I want." and then "You are
> not civil." is not something I would hear on a TV debate I think. You
> claim your right to be somewhat rude since you moderate the list, in
> that case maybe you should stick to only moderating and not voicing
> your opinions
[..]

I'm not a mailinglist moderator of this list. 
I'm not claiming the right to be rude.
I point out what I believe is non-civil, but in a civil tone.
(Of course I may sometimes fail at doing so, thus I am listening what others 
write and set out to clarify what I've meant if this needs to be the case.)

While we are at speaking as oneselfs:
Another example I'd find un-acceptable is astro-turfing or using sockpuppets
to make it appear like an opinion is carried by many people.
What do you think about this?

Regards,
Bernhard

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Daniel on discussion@ (Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?)

[Bernhard E. Reiter]

Hi Daniel,

Am Dienstag 04 September 2018 23:22:33 schrieb Daniel Pocock:
> are you trying to change/misrepresent the intention of
> somebody else's email?

please read the exchange again and look at the quotes,
I was asking what ostend...@gmail.com meant by quoting from an HTML mail by 
matthias.ha...@zoho.eu.

BTW: as both email addresses have no direct hits on an internet search engine, 
they strongly support your points and they have similiarities in writing 
styles, I'm just asking you directly: What is your connection to these email 
addresses?

> The second motion included a very aggressive and ultimately toxic option

Please reread my last explanations and what other wrote about this.
Others don't share your view. It does not make sense bringing this up
again and again.

Regards,
Bernhard


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Re: what makes a good president and chairperson?

[Bernhard E. Reiter]

Am Dienstag 04 September 2018 23:21:36 schrieb Daniel Pocock:
> > and how do you find such an ideal person?
>
> In most organizations, they let any member of the community nominate for
> the position and then all the people can vote.  An election.

As others have pointed out before: 
This is not the case with many successful NGOs for the reasons mentioned
several times.

> > Our anchor person has much to do, a volunteer wouldn't have enough time
> > on her hands to do the job.
>
> The key responsibilities are to prepare for the annual meetings and
> chair those meetings.

This is your opinion on how an organisation lobbying for Free Software should 
work, but not mine (and as far as I can say I am in agreement with the 
majority of people that build up, run and contribute to FSFE).

It seems you are unhappy with FSFE. You have voiced it multiple times,
it did not resonate a lot. Please do not repeat it more often,
it won't change people's view if it hasn't by now.

Regards,
Bernhard

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