Re: We could of course just submit to Danny's BS

[Danny Spitzberg]

I have nothing to do with LibrePlanet, but I have gone a couple of times
and met many nice people including RMS.

And no, I'm not a cofounder. That's Paige and Liz and Matt. TWC is a global
network of some 4,000 people working in tech, and has done a lot to build
worker power and unions, to fight surveillance, big tech, et al, etc. You
seem to have a problem with hubris. It's ok to be wrong!

Anyway, good luck!

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 12:06 PM  wrote:

>
>
> > Maybe you don't know organizing when you see it?
>
> Oh you're organised. So is LiePlanet. The question is what they're
> organised around.
>
>
> > I helped organize https://cubaconf.org/ 
> along with many others, it was great.
>
> First impressions-- there's only one line of text without JS enabled. But
> that's common... let's see...
>
> All built on Microsoft jQuery, guess I'll have to enable JS. But again
> that's common, it doesn't prove much.
>
> > CubaConf, is the Cuban conference about free software and open
> technologies
>
> "Open technologies", yay. But this is still pretty superficial. It has to
> be, I haven't found much to go on yet.
>
>
>
> > that will have its second edition in La Habana from November 20th to
> 22th, 2019
>
> That was only weeks after Stallman got stabbed in September. Seize the
> opportunity!
>
>
>
> > From the organization of the conference, it is aimed at the diversity of
> both topics and projects, as of its participants, so the participation
> of women, minority groups
>
> I mean that's good, IBM does that too. They also helped the Nazis but
> cmon, that was YEARS ago.
>
> I'm just saying that it's a common trope. ODB grabbed the mic out of Shawn
> Colvin's hand saying she shouldn't have won that award because "WU TANG IS
> FOR THE CHILDREN!" And This website the mailing list is based on is full
> of examples of corporate reputation-washing (exploiting good causes to
> insinuate corporate control.)
>
> But there's nothing inherently bad about such causes, so once again, that
> by itself doesn't prove anything. Of course for now I'm pretending not to
> know the rest of the story-- I'm focused on these mostly irrelevant
> details first.
>
> I'll be honest, the only thing I have against this conference for now is
> that you were involved. For now I have neither the time nor the interest
> to scrutinise CubaConf further-- it looks "okay" for the moment at least.
>
>
> Which brings us to:
>
>
>
> > I'm also a volunteer organizing with https://techworkerscoalition.org/.
>
> No, you're a co-founder. I have already looked at TWC and I'm thoroughly
> unimpressed.
>
>
>
> Note also that I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the FSF itself, and that is
> an organisation that has "organised" for several decades.
>
>
> Feel free to ask my why I'm unimpressed with TWC and the FSF. I know even
> if I take the time to say so, you're going to make something up even after
> you know the reason.
>
> Why don't you go ahead and go to the trouble, and then I'll explain why
> that too is bullshit?
>
>
>
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Re: We could of course just submit to Danny's BS

[Danny Spitzberg]

Maybe you don't know organizing when you see it? I helped organize
https://cubaconf.org/  along with many others,
it was great. I'm also a volunteer organizing with
https://techworkerscoalition.org/.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 11:32 AM  wrote:

>
> Then that is one of the narcissistic delusions of someone who constantly
> stabs the movement in the back with lies-- that somehow it's for a good
> cause.
>
> That's the sort of error that created OSI in the first place.
>
> Look at Eric S. Raymond and Bruce Perens.
>
> If you think they're living a wild and contented life, you can go down the
> same route and claim it's about freedom.
>
> Feel free to delude yourself.
>
>
>
> > Yes it is.
>
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 11:21 AM  wrote:
>
> > > My desired outcome here is for folks in the free software movement/
> club
> > to actually get organized instead of frothing at the mouth.
> >
> > It really isn't.
>
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Re: We could of course just submit to Danny's BS

[Danny Spitzberg]

Yes it is.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 11:21 AM  wrote:

> > My desired outcome here is for folks in the free software movement/ club
> to actually get organized instead of frothing at the mouth.
>
> It really isn't.
>
> You back liars and backstabbers, and hope people won't notice.
>
> You taunt people with half truths, because honestly, you're sociopathic
> and narcissistic.
>
>
> > But with each round of namecalling about LibrePlanet,
>
> It isn't namecalling to point out when people are acting sleazy. LiePlanet
> organisers have been stabbing the entire movement in the back for years.
>
> You're acting as their press office. Of course you're going to say this is
> all for a good cause-- but lies do not help this movement.
>
>
> > I become less confident folks really want to see things changed,
>
> Sorry, you'll have to wait, because the lies you support are a lot for
> people to work through.
>
> But then the lies are your real objective.
>
>
> > because nobody is proposing any action
>
> That's also not true. People are focusing on your lies, rather than the
> silly dance you keep taunting people to do around LiePlanet's bullshit.
>
> You shouldn't expect intelligent people to fall for bullshit all the
> time-- they wont' dance for you. That's not because they don't care, it's
> because they know it's BS.
>
>
> > beyond writing repetitive rants via email, and certainly not you.
>
> You have a penchant for saying the exact opposite of the truth. Very few
> people have proposed more action than I have-- though many more have
> proposed something. Action predates this latest chapter of the coup.
>
> It's dishonest (as usual) for you to criticise my lack of action while
> running in circles around the truth and constantly saying things already
> demonstrated to be non-true.
>
> It's EXTREMELY dishonest to point to a lack of proposals in a heavily
> censored thread, but you don't even count the proposals made here-- when
> they are already being made in other places.
>
> It's cute for trolling, but worthless for advocacy. That's because you're
> a troll, not an advocate. But feel free to lie about giving a shit once
> again.
>
> It's what we are used to, and each time you do it you prove it once again.
>
>
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Re: We could of course just submit to LiePlanet and their BS

[Danny Spitzberg]

My desired outcome here is for folks in the free software movement/ club to
actually get organized instead of frothing at the mouth. But with each
round of namecalling about LibrePlanet, I become less confident folks
really want to see things changed, because nobody is proposing any action
beyond writing repetitive rants via email, and certainly not you.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 10:45 AM  wrote:

>
> > You know, that's a lot of emailing for someone who's not organizing to
> get
> RMS on stage
>
> And as I made very clear already, you are putting a great deal of effort
> into making this about getting a place for rms to talk, rather than about
> the treachery of LiePlanet itself.
>
> I don't hold any hope of convincing a perpetual liar that one more lie is
> just pointless as the others-- you work entirely under the illusion that
> your story will hold up forever.
>
> You can conflate the volume of emails with the unrelated notion that it's
> about what you say-- even if each email is clearly about your treachery,
> not whether rms has a place to speak or not.
>
> I've already said, he has places to talk. That doesn't change the fact
> that LiePlanet organisers are acting sleazy. Would you like to go in
> another circle, or are you bored yet?
>
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Re: We could of course just submit to LiePlanet and their BS

[Danny Spitzberg]

You know, that's a lot of emailing for someone who's not organizing to get
RMS on stage

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 10:19 AM  wrote:

>
> > I think there were 3, maybe 4 individuals who feel similarly to you.
>
>
> Thank you by the way, for demonstrating my earlier point about how two
> lies combine and reinforce each other to create the illusion of
> plausibility.
>
> When people mention that rms is getting shafted, you cite the low number
> of people who feel that way.
>
> When people are censored, people get very serious about the rules that
> justify silencing any points they had to make.
>
> It PROBABLY affects your count that most pro-rms people have been censored
> from the lieplanet mailing lists, but since you have no way of knowing you
> should probably simply assume that the count is much higher than you can
> make it.
>
> Then again, when people lie all the time they tend to fool even
> themselves, so you probably didn't think of doing this.
>
> People like you are no stewards of freedom. You don't know freedom's arse
> from freedom's elbow.
>
>
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Re: A note to those attacking Stallman and attacking everyone who wants freedom

[Danny Spitzberg]

Of course there was a grain of truth in the provocation. You very well
could canvass for folks to recruit and/or nominate RMS to speak at
LibrePlanet! I think there were 3, maybe 4 individuals who feel similarly
to you. You can even raise independent funding for it, without conflicts of
interest. A few dollars, a Jitsi link, and off you go.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 9:06 AM  wrote:

> > I thought it made sense that if a number of people want RMS to speak at
> LibrePlanet, they should either a) campaign to recruit and/or nominate him
> to speak there,
>
> None of that is true, actually. You're completely lying now, hoping for a
> sucker. All anyone needs to do is go to the lieplanet mailing list to
> witness the snippets of truth that have forged through the mire.
>
> > or else b) organize a new conference.
>
> Conference... The open sores people and Microsoft Lienux Foundation sure
> do love their conferences. It lets them feel powerful and recognised for
> what amounts to little more than treachery.
>
> There is so much more to organise than a new conference.
>
>
> > But you've certainly taken that and run with it, haven't you.
>
> You're putting the cart before the horse. I was running with this well
> before you and your goons got your pom-poms out for this particular farce.
>
>
>
>
> The following is a list of awards Stallman has received.
>
> Awards are nothing (though the Takeda award was worth $1m I guess)
> compared to the deeds that earned them.
>
> The real award is a lifetime of accomplishment and (mostly) making
> progress. It will be up to the next generation to carry that forward, but
> the people who really care about that goal will always give Stallman his
> due.
>
> Those who tried to undo him in one fell swoop will now try to beat him
> piece-by-piece, but they don't understand that Stallman is already
> immortal.
>
> Take a look, pretenders to the throne. Here is the un-earned recognition
> you backstabbers seek-- burn in your envy of this person you try to
> minimise:
>
>
>
> 1986: Honorary lifetime membership in the Chalmers Computer Society.
> Mentioned in the announcement of a talk at the Chalmers University of
> Technology. (Archived)
> 1990: MacArthur Foundation Fellowship ("Genius Grant"). McArthur
> Fellows Class of 1990. (Archived)
> 1990: The ACM Grace Murray Hopper Award "For pioneering work in the
> development of the extensible editor EMACS (Editing Macros)."
> (Archived)
> 1996: Doctorate honoris causa from Sweden’s Royal Institute of
> Technology. (Archived)
> 1998: Electronic Frontier Foundation’s Pioneer award. (Archived)
> 1999: Yuri Rubinsky Memorial Award.
> 2001: The Takeda Techno-Entrepreneurship Award for Social/Economic
> Well-Being. (Archived)
> 2001: Doctorate honoris causa from the University of Glasgow.
> (Archived)
> 2002: United States National Academy of Engineering membership.
> (Archived)
> 2003: Doctorate honoris causa from the Vrije Universiteit Brussel.
> (Archived)
> 2003: Honorary professorship from the Universidad Nacional de
> Ingeniería del Perú (UNI). Mentioned in the
> announcement of a talk at the same university in 2008.
> 2004: Doctorate honoris causa from the Universidad Nacional de Salta,
> Argentina. (Archived)
> 2004: Honorary professorship from the Universidad Tecnológica del
> Perú. (Not found on line)
> 2005: Fondazione Pistoletto prize. Reported in Il Sole 24 Ore
> newspaper (Archived). Reported in an FSF blog post (Archived).
> 2007:Honorary professorship from the Universidad Inca Garcilaso de la
> Vega, Perú.
> 2007: First Premio Internacional Extremadura al Conocimiento Libre,
> Spain. (Archived)
> 2007: Doctorate honoris causa from the Universidad de Los Angeles de
> Chimbote, Perú. (Not found on line)
> 2007: Doctorate honoris causa from the University of Pavia, Italy.
> 2008: Doctorate honoris causa from the Universidad Nacional de
> Trujillo, Perú. (Not found on line)
> 2009: Doctor of Science honoris causa from Lakehead University,
> Canada. (Archived)
> 2011: Doctorate honoris causa from the Universidad Nacional de
> Córdoba, Argentina. (Archived)
> 2012: Honorary professorship from the Universidad César Vallejo de
> Trujillo, Perú. (Not found on line)
> 2012: Doctorate honoris causa from the Universidad Latinoamericana
> Cima de Tacna, Perú. (Archived)
> 2012: Doctorate honoris causa from the Universidad José Faustino
> Sanchez Carrión, Perú. (Not found on line)
> 2013: Inducted into the Internet Hall of Fame. (Archived)
> 2014: Doctorate honoris causa from Concordia University, Canada.
> (Archived)
> 2015: Doctorate honoris causa from Universidad las Américas, Perú.
> (Not found on line)
> 2016: The ACM Award for development of GCC, the GNU Compiler
> Collection. (Archived)
> 2016: Doctorate honoris causa awarded jointly by the Université Pierre
> et Marie Curie and Paris-Sorbonne, France.
> 2016: 

Re: A list of lies and half-truths around LiePlanet

[Danny Spitzberg]

I thought it made sense that if a number of people want RMS to speak at
LibrePlanet, they should either a) campaign to recruit and/or nominate him
to speak there, or else b) organize a new conference. But you've
certainly taken that and run with it, haven't you.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 6:36 PM  wrote:

> > It sounds like you need a outlet for your opinions. Consider a
> presentation
> at LibrePlanet!
>
> You really are a child in a man's body. Your interaction with the FSF
> consists mostly of taunting people.
>
> I think it's a bit too exclusive to provide an outlet to someone telling
> the truth.
>
> Funnily enough the reason I never went to (bought a seat at) LiePlanet was
> I always thought their rules would be used to censor and stifle good
> people, but this was before 2018 when they started proving me right.
>
>
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Re: Discussion Digest, Vol 22, Issue 11

[Danny Spitzberg]

It sounds like you need a outlet for your opinions. Consider a presentation
at LibrePlanet!

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 8:16 AM  wrote:

> > When you use name calling and profanity I take you less seriously.
>
> What's the difference? You don't take anything meaningful seriously.
>
> Your communication over the past few years consists more of trolling the
> lieplanet mailing lists than it does tending to your own organisation.
>
> You're literally a professional troll.
>
> That's a very empty existence. People with integrity will have things to
> loo back on when they're older.
>
> You will have nothing but a life of bullshitting people and delaying
> inevitable progress in the name of your own bullshit.
>
>
> > And anyway, I think all of the constant jabbering on this list VS any
> real
> organizing is quite revealing.
>
> It is, actually. It's the growing dissatisfaction with your regime.
>
> You can mock it, but it helps to show that lieplanet only speaks for
> itself, while pretending to advocate for others.
>
>
>
> > Instead of another 18 paragraph reply, consider more productive or
> collaborative alternatives.
>
> Unlike Stallman, I don't think there's any point in "collaborating" with
> Open Source liars who steal free software and ship it off to Microsoft for
> them to euthanise.
>
> Nor do I think there's a point in letting someone who has spent the past
> few years openly being a shill advise me on strategy. That's what the new
> FSF board is for, isn't it?
>
> It must suck being a sociopath, Danny.
>
> Narcissists will always be miserable. Their lives will never match their
> delusions. But you'll have temporary victories. Try to enjoy those, I
> guess. You're certainly gloating a hell of a lot.
>
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Re: A list of lies and half-truths around LiePlanet

[Danny Spitzberg]

When you use name calling and profanity I take you less seriously. And
anyway, I think all of the constant jabbering on this list VS any real
organizing is quite revealing. Instead of another 18 paragraph reply,
consider more productive or collaborative alternatives.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 8:01 AM  wrote:

>
> > You should organize StallmanCon!
>
> You couldn't be more wrong, Danno.
>
>
> Stallman Support *IS* StallmanCon.
>
> You and Deb and OSI are just a fucking Con.
>
>
> Now that you shills and liars have taken over the FSF, what's really
> needed is a FreePlanet to support Free Software, but from an honest and
> HISTORICALLY ACCURATE perspective.
>
> The attacks on Stallman were attacks on Free Software.
>
> His supporters are still attacked routinely, but they haven't seemed to
> figure that out yet.
>
>
> You people have turned LibrePlanet into LiePlanet. You've already made it
> your own HypocriteCon, RevisionistHistoryCon, StrawmanCon.
>
> You will of course, take the FSF down with you.
>
>
> Mark my words, history will not be kind to you. You'll be seen as idiots,
> liars, hypocrites-- and the fucking scum that you are, Danny.
>
> But don't worry-- we will defeat you eventually.
>
> Stallman's place in history is secure. It's only the present that you've
> shit all over.
>
> Fuck you-- and fuck everyone like you.
>
>
>
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Re: A list of lies and half-truths around LiePlanet

[Danny Spitzberg]

You should organize StallmanCon!

On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 11:01 PM  wrote:

>
> Lie #1
>
> (This was the kickoff) Stallman is a terrible person.
>
>
> Nope, not really. He's still a hero to many, including many progressive
> activists. He's certainly outspoken.
>
> The people he really pisses off are what the left itself calls the
> "ultra-left". I don't mean "communists", I mean people who (even among
> communists) are so far to the left that humanity is pretty much incapable
> (read: guaranteed NOT to) meet their lofty standards.
>
> In fact their standards are so lofty, that they ultimately abandon the
> rest of the left (including the communists) in disgust for not joining
> their ultra-left inquisition.
>
> At this point it's either give up on progress, come home with their tails
> between their legs to the people they shunned, or find unlikely allies in
> the form of moderate right (corporate) entities to pander to them.
>
> Hence, every corporation that has always discriminated against LGBT (even
> given to orgs that lobby AGAINST LGBT rights) has a rainbow logo at
> opportune times. You may support trans rights for example, you may even be
> trans yourself, but you didn't rename "Master" to "Main" and Github did,
> so who do you think you are? Etc.
>
> These are the sorts of people who have taken over LiePlanet.
>
>
> Lie #2
>
> There was no coup.
>
> It's just better to deny it entirely. Admitting there was a coup would
> result in people other than the FSF demanding justice. We've had enough
> justice in this movement for the next few decades, so the only people who
> are going to get it are the ones who wanted rms out. They got him out.
> Look how pissed off they were when he came back! THE NERVE OF THAT GUY!
>
>
> Lie #3
>
> Stallman came back.
>
> It pissed off thousands of people, so it must have happened. I mean he was
> literally there at LiePlanet in 2021, that wasn't a hologram, it was
> Stallman himself. And since he's back, then of course...
>
>
> Lie #4
>
> Stallman still runs the FSF.
>
> In reality they've gutted the board and gutted his old positions-- both
> the position of Chief GNUisance and that of FSF president.
>
> When Torvalds came back, he had to spend more time bowing to those who
> work with corporations more cooperatively. No more giving the finger to
> nVidia, even if they are a terrible company that has always shafted
> GNU/Linux and made a very big deal about crumbs from the table, which is
> exactly why Torvalds gave them the finger in the first place.
>
> We all should have given nVidia the finger. Instead, we are told that Free
> Software is "about hate". This is the open source marching song: open
> source has all the authority. It can do what it pleases. Non-corporations
> must apply for permission. Isn't that exactly what free software was
> moving away from? It is, actually. Open source is the reassertion of
> corporate power over users-- in technology and in what they can say. (Just
> ask Mark Zuckerberg).
>
> When Stallman came back, he put MOST of his own positions aside to work
> with the people who make the same demands now (basically an rms-free FSF)
> as they did during the coup. But since that never happened...
>
>
> Lie #5
>
> Stallman is still Chief GNUisance.
>
> He has very specifically corrected people on this-- he never resigned from
> that position.
>
> The reason he has to state this clearly is that someone (who went unnamed
> and unpunished) faked his resignation from GNU itself.
>
> You would think that it would be unnecessary to state who the Chief
> GNUisance is. All you have to do is go to the GNU website or read the GNU
> article on Wikipedia.
>
> But people have been working to undermine both GNU and its leader since
> 2011 (or really, since 1998.) It's NECESSARY for him to say "I am still
> the Chief GNUisance" because it's the only way you could be sure.
>
> In reality, Duix runs everything. That was their goal during the petition
> in 2019. Duix and Debian are competing to turn GNU into GNOME OS and Neil
> has been spotted along for the ride every step of the way.
>
> It was also their goal with the GNU.fools coup, which the FSF and GNU have
> taken NO action against, even though it will eventually lead to the GNU
> trademark (which the FSF holds) becoming generic. But by that time GNU
> will have collapsed anyway (7 years to go.)
>
> If you want to know who the Chief GNUisance really is, it's Duix. If you
> want something from GNU, you might as well forward all correspondence to
> Ludicrous Cortes. This is hardly an endorsement, I think he's scum. I will
> never use Guile, I'd sooner switch to an abacus (or analog computing).
>
>
> Lie #6
>
> The coup is over.
>
> If the coup is over, then the FSF is grieving the loss by caving to all
> the demands they had when they were bothering us. Everything is being
> weakened and caving to corporate control.
>
> People have a very unsophisticated idea of what the coup was really about.
> 

Re: Richard Stallman should be reinstated to President of the FSF

[Danny Spitzberg]

I have to say, so much of this list is marked with passionate commentary
that is less kind and caring, and more aggressive and impatient. I wonder
if that might have something to do with the failure of free software as a
movement, more than FSF or LibrePlanet (or LiePlanet).

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 7:04 PM  wrote:

> > You realize I didn’t write that article, yes?
>
> Yes. And you realise my critique isn't with the article, but with you
> wrote, yes?
>
>
> > Maybe give it a read in-full first, and then consider its main point:
> effective base building and movement organizing is difficult given the
> tendencies in FSF and LibrePlanet and elsewhere that are more inclined to
> favor their own small in-groups (clubs) over possible newcomers out there..
>
>
> Yours is an oversimplification.
>
> At a certain level of organisation in-groups (clubs or otherwise) are
> unavoidable, and not always detrimental. Attacking them for existing in
> the first place is also pointless. There are of course aspects of these
> that are worth addressing, but only if they are addressed in a way that
> doesn't create much more tragic problems (like the destruction of the
> whole thing, which is tragic). LiePlanet has only made things worse, but
> in the short run-- the short run really doesn't matter here. It's their
> mistake to grab quick results-- it will collapse.
>
> An increasing number of people believe it already has. Some even argue (as
> I) that this is the inevitable outcome.
>
> Clubs are not the entire picture. But as to overall strategy, you
> underestimate what is possible with a few of the right people in the right
> place at the right time. That's not the goal, obviously-- and the FSF has
> indeed failed to gain the numbers it wants to.
>
> This didn't happen in a vacuum. Many of the FSF's failures are due to
> counter-revolutionary tactics from the same people LiePlanet has chosen to
> side with. They seek success by changing sides, but this is not a favour
> to Free Software. It is the triumph (for now) of Open Source, which above
> all is a lie, a scam. And NOT Free Software. Not even about freedom.
>
> Now, as to the article, that's another matter. I am pro-union and consider
> (at this point) joining unions to be a better strategy than joining the
> FSF. The FSF is dead.
>
> But that's no reason to join Open Source, which stands for nothing-- and
> can bring in so many people stand for nothing alongside it!
>
>
> Instead, people should take Free Software and bring it to unions. Not
> because I said so, only because it will work better than kowtowing to the
> ridiculous and empty pageant the coup has turned the FSF into.
>
>
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Re: Richard Stallman should be reinstated to President of the FSF

[Danny Spitzberg]

You realize I didn’t write that article, yes?

Maybe give it a read in-full first, and then consider its main point:
effective base building and movement organizing is difficult given the
tendencies in FSF and LibrePlanet and elsewhere that are more inclined to
favor their own small in-groups (clubs) over possible newcomers out there..

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 6:25 PM  wrote:

> > I appreciate what the last email says about delegating, but can’t wholly
> agree with the assertion that the failure is on the part of followers-
> it specifically falls on FSF not the broader base.
>
> While that might be true as an abstraction, I'm not sure the abstraction
> applies meaningfully to the FSF.
>
> The FSF has been, effectively, taken over. While it's true that the FSF's
> job was to prevent this, Stallman's followers are the only people left who
> can do anything about it. The FSF cannot without them.
>
> If the goal is (was) to restore the FSF, it was first the FSF and then the
> followers that failed. They seem to care more about credit than goals.
> That's why they've abandoned goals and retained credit.
>
> AND THEY DESERVE CREDIT! For everything they did. If only prestige could
> fix anything that's happened since the coup, but it can't.
>
>
> > This excerpt from “A Club is Not a Movement”
> (https://news.techworkerscoalition.org/2021/10/26/issue-22/) might be
> instructive:
>
> I'll have to read that. Considering that I advocate joining unions as an
> alternative to trying to bolster dying 501(c)3 orgs, because unions are
> often capable of doing more (only in some instances, but some pretty
> important ones) that may be a very good read.
>
>
> > We don’t talk enough about why free software is great. We say, “Well,
> it’s not proprietary!” But what’s really great about free software is
> that it asks questions like, What if you wanted to have a screen reader
> that could seamlessly go back and forth between the browser and the
> command line?"
>
> This is true. I also consider it a slippery slope, but not if it doesn't
> "take over" everything else that needs to be done. If cheerleaders can do
> everything, why not hand them the ball and tell them to join the team?
> Cheerleading can only help so much. As long as the game still matters and
> is still played well, cheerleaders are absolutely okay to have.
>
> Open Source puts a LOT of stress on this, since it's really just
> marketing. That's the concern- but it's not a GIVEN that the superficial
> takes over, only a potential threat.
>
>
>
> > Would a proprietary browser ask that? No, but a free software
> alternative absolutely would. And that comes from bringing in people who
> don’t *only* care about free software.
>
> I was hoping Free Culture and Free Hardware would be of more assistance
> here.
>
> The FSF has misrepresented free culture for years, and I cancelled my
> membership over it. It does to free culture more or less what Open Source
> does to the FSF. That isn't fair.
>
> Free culture of course, has not been fair either. But at least it has some
> good reasons to be pissed off.
>
> Free Hardware is absolutely necessary, at some point. Otherwise all the
> problems of non-free software will very simply move to silicon, and then
> what? Then the whole movement is done.
>
> Of course it's not that stupid, it will evolve for the same reason
> anything else evolves. But it's annoying to see the FSF drag its feet
> about this and do the FSF-on-Free-Culture dance all over again.
>
> I actually think this has gotten slightly better.
>
>
> > So, despite outright opposition within the office, we formed the women’s
> caucus to help grow LibrePlanet — both the conference and the movement.
>
> Ah yes, LiePlanet-- with no ethics, no truth and Zinovievian tactics
> against everyone.
>
> Stalin did not set out to create Stalinism. He started with mistakes like
> the ones made by your nasty little trojan horse coup.
>
>
> > Overtly and repeatedly saying “everyone is welcome” worked.
>
> Lies often do work for a time. It's clearly not true though. Your
> DISCRIMINATION against the neurodiverse is appalling and hypocritical.
>
> Fortunately it is also self-destructive. It may take years, but you're
> cutting the floor out from underneath yourselves.
>
>
>
> > The number of women who presented went up and up and held at about a
> third of the participants. We worked to include diverse people beyond
> the usual suspects: people from around the world, often from
> Spanish-speaking
> countries, and people with kids.
>
> And that's not a bad thing. It really depends on how you do it. If
> LiePlanet were honest, I think this tactic you're describing would be
> sustainable.
>
>
> > We also saw a lot of new GNU projects that focused on growth, and we
> asked users what they wanted to see, how they wanted the software to
> work. That led to software not just for ourselves but for people like
> painters and artists. Most of those maintainers have been chased off,
> but 

Re: Richard Stallman should be reinstated to President of the FSF

[Danny Spitzberg]

I appreciate what the last email says about delegating, but can’t wholly
agree with the assertion that the failure is on the part of followers- it
specifically falls on FSF not the broader base.

This excerpt from “A Club is Not a Movement” (
https://news.techworkerscoalition.org/2021/10/26/issue-22/) might be
instructive:

Growing FSF

We don’t talk enough about why free software is great. We say, “Well, it’s
not proprietary!” But what’s really great about free software is that it
asks questions like, What if you wanted to have a screen reader that could
seamlessly go back and forth between the browser and the command line?
Would a proprietary browser ask that? No, but a free software alternative
absolutely would. And that comes from bringing in people who don’t *only* care
about free software.

So, despite outright opposition within the office, we formed the women’s
caucus to help grow LibrePlanet — both the conference and the movement.
Overtly and repeatedly saying “everyone is welcome” worked. The number of
women who presented went up and up and held at about a third of the
participants. We worked to include diverse people beyond the usual
suspects: people from around the world, often from Spanish-speaking
countries, and people with kids.

We also saw a lot of new GNU projects that focused on growth, and we asked
users what they wanted to see, how they wanted the software to work. That
led to software not just for ourselves but for people like painters and
artists. Most of those maintainers have been chased off, but for a while it
was really good. It was great to see free software projects modeling how to
talk with users. How do you get them using your software, not because it’s
cheap or the right thing to do, but because it works?
A Club is Not a Movement

Some people in free software feel like, “We have a super fun secret club
and it’d be nice if it were a little bit bigger.” Other people are trying
to build a movement. Building a movement requires constant checks on
gatekeeping, which is a muscle and a mindset you need to build because it’s
not intuitive.

If you look at corporate software events, it’s easy to see how they grow.
Sure, they don’t run out of water or coffee by 11am and their hotel rooms
are nicer, but what many do really well is proactively bring in students,
women, and people of color by having a solid code of conduct, being super
positive – and not acting as gatekeepers. We might not be able to afford
endless espresso and sushi, but it doesn’t cost anything to be nice.

Like in other nerdy pursuits, the norms and behaviors you set up are what
matter. In a club, it’s not obvious that it’s better to listen to newcomers
rather than make fun of them or say “Ugh [sigh], I’ll just do it for you.”
If you want people to behave in a certain way, you need to model it in your
own event, project, or nonprofit organization.


On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 5:45 PM  wrote:

>
> > "Lost the ball"? that sounds really pessimistic.
>
> Stallman himself is a self-declared pessimist. I'm not sure when the FSF
> got all sunshiny and happy, though maybe it was around the time Stallman
> himself lost influence.
>
> My "pessimistic" outlook comes from not days, weeks or months watching the
> FSF in decay, but years of it "losing the ball".
>
> In those YEARS, I've repeatedly looked for Hope. Other than platitudes,
> I've found no hope there. There is no hope in fooling ourselves.
>
> All the hope I've found was in other people who recognised these issues
> and want to tackle them with integrity and honesty-- not optimism.
>
> Optimists are welcome of course. It remains to be seen if their outlook
> itself is justified.
>
>
> > This is not what we need if we are going to inspire and activate the
> Free Software Movement to move the ball towards the goal.
>
> I don't agree. If the ball is somewhere on Mars now, we need to "inspire
> and activate" the movement to go to Mars and fetch it-- not to pretend
> that Mars is "really not that far."
>
>
>
> > RMS has always had too much to do.
>
> Yes, part of that is a failure to delegate properly, but please note (once
> again) I blame his followers more. In other words, they have not picked up
> the slack either. Some have tried, and some have worked very hard, but
> this is a strategic error: everyone relies on a single point of failure,
> for TOO MUCH.
>
> I'm not saying he's not important-- he's the founding leader and his
> wisdom and input matters. I'm saying that there is a strategic error
> regardless. Errors of that magnitude often lead to disaster.
>
> No amount of cheerleading fixes strategic errors. Even the board is
> required to act as a cheerleading squad now:
> https://www.fsf.org/about/board-member-agreement this is a bad sign for an
> organisation.
>
>
> > He needs his allies around him - not only for support but to generate
> ideas too. Share your thoughts with him.
>
> I think you are unaware the degree to which people have mediated and
> interfered 

Re: Elections

[Danny Spitzberg]

Case in point, the "Debian Community News Team" email account is run by one
person writing in what seems like their personal capacity and without
community input, and the vast majority of messages on this list are from
that person, Adrienne, Daniel, and aristocat. The obsession with Molly as
the alleged root cause of the movement's decline also seems quite desperate.

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 11:10 AM Debian Community News Team
 wrote:

>
>
> On 22/05/2021 20:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> > Whooopps! Sorry, Adrienne, according Godwin's Law
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law> you automatically lost
> > the argument : (
>
> As the Wikipedia article explains, outright comparisons to Hitler are
> often nonsense but comparing specific behaviors is quite valid.
>
>
> > Also, it seems to me that unlike many large, widespread, and popular
> > social movements with millions of people making history, the Free
> > Software cause is like a small secret club with a few dozen individuals
> > struggling to be relevant or useful. Am I wrong?
>
> That is what Molly is trying to achieve, yes
>
> Through her complete lack of relevance and ability as a developer, she
> brings everybody down with her
>
> To quote Molly's Github profile, "I can't code but I have blue hair"
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Re: Elections

[Danny Spitzberg]

Whooopps! Sorry, Adrienne, according Godwin's Law
 you automatically lost the
argument : (

Also, it seems to me that unlike many large, widespread, and popular social
movements with millions of people making history, the Free Software cause
is like a small secret club with a few dozen individuals struggling to be
relevant or useful. Am I wrong?

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 11:04 AM Adrienne G. Thompson <
adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>> Molly de Blanc is the new Adolf Hitler
>>
>
> You give de Blanc & Co. too much credit. Hitler was not motivated by
> greed, but by a twisted philosophy.  He was highly intelligent, and an
> artist capable of independent thought. Never, himself, the manipulated
> victim Hitler was a master manipulator. Yes, he was a demon - but his
> demented ideas were his very own.
>
> Adrienne
>
> --
> Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
>
> References:
>
>1. GNU C-Graph: http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
>2. Code Art Now: http://codeartnow.com
>3. Abertheid Campaign:
>http://www.abertheid.info/icc/pre-indictment-brief-05.10.2006.pdf
>4. Follow me on Twitter: @AdrienneGT 
>@GNUcgraph 
>5. Let's Link Up: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/
>6. Knees On My Neck:
>https://twitter.com/AdrienneGT/status/1288648018783277068
>7. Rise Up for Richard Stallman: https://www.stallmansupport.org
>
>
>
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Re: Pentagon linked to RMS, Jacob Appelbaum plots through Debian

[Danny Spitzberg]

Oh funny...

Is this a rendering of RMS in 2018 angrily yelling “we’re not licked
yet!!!” from the back of the auditorium, and then rushing down the aisle to
the stage to grab the mic and berate the speaker’s points about why the
global free software movement might benefit some improvements?

That outburst was when I first started to doubt if RMS deserved complete,
unquestioned loyalty.

Unfortunately that part of the livestream was cut out but folks at
LibrePlanet might recall.

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 4:15 PM Patrick Driscoll 
wrote:

>
> https://driscollart.com/uploads/images/692d80b4-646d-4530-be7d-2463a57139ad-main.png
>
> Sincerely,
> Patrick
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 5, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Matthew Garrett  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 04:04:43PM -0400, Robert Call (Bob) wrote:
>
> Again, it's hearsay until you've provided corroborating evidence that
>
> would back up such claims. You can assert the claim is true all you
>
> want but the burden of proof is on YOU! If you can't provide such
>
> evidence, I suggest you stop with these toxic games of telephone.
>
>
> Such as https://hypatia.ca/2016/06/07/he-said-they-said/, an incident in
> which a third party was present and supports the telling of events? Or
> https://medium.com/@eqe/not-working-for-us-bff58e96c2ea, which also
> involves a witness supporting the account of one of his victims? If not,
> what sort of corroborating evidence are you looking for?
>
> But on a side-note - why pick this specific topic to leap to someone's
> defence? Daniel's been engaging in a long-term harassment campaign
> against multiple volunteer contributors to Debian based on, well, zero
> evidence at all. Are you as angry about that?
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Re: Pentagon linked to RMS, Jacob Appelbaum plots through Debian

[Danny Spitzberg]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 6:14 PM Matthew Garrett  wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 12:37:54AM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
> >
> > Both RMS and Appelbaum cases... Pentagon, White House
>
> Why do you keep defending a rapist?


An important question ^^

>
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Re: billing Molly for wasted developer time?

[Danny Spitzberg]

It’s interesting to think that Molly might be responsible for other
people's choices on how they spend their time.

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 9:41 AM Debian Community News Team
 wrote:

>
>
> Does anybody keep track of how much time they lose on Molly de Blanc's
> games over the years?
>
> Can we vote to make her pay the bill?
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Re: feminism is as bad as machism

[Danny Spitzberg]

"she advocates for tyrants to assassinate anybody who doesn't agree"

Is this like when there was a plot to assassinate RMS? An actual contract
killer?

On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 12:56 PM Debian Community News Team
 wrote:

>
>
> On 20/01/2021 18:37, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> > What... what is going on here
>
> de Blanc says one thing and does something different
>
>
> http://deblanc.net/blog/2021/01/12/1028-words-on-free-software/
>
>
> Or she says one thing at FOSDEM and then she writes something different
> in her blog
>
> "The job of the free software movement is to demonstrate that this world
> is possible by living its values now: justice, equity, equality."
>
> but she advocates for tyrants to assassinate anybody who doesn't agree
> with her.
>
> Heads Molly wins, Tails and everybody else loses.
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Re: feminism is as bad as machism

[Danny Spitzberg]

What... what is going on here

On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 9:33 AM quiliro  wrote:

> I was reading Molly LeBlank's latest blog post this year with many more
> rants against white men and against Richard Stallman's continued
> participation in the free software movement. Yes, it is the movement she
> belongs to and which would probably not exist, if it were not mostly for
> him.
>
> I grant that there is very much racism and sexism in the World.  But it
> is mostly exerted by people of the same race and sex (although I would
> rather call them "color of skin" and "gender", respectively).  In my
> country, usually those who want to appear more white are
> discriminational against those which are just a little more dark than
> themselves.
>
> Most women use their appearance to get what they want from men and then
> complain about the fact that men are attracted to them in an excesive
> way.  In no way that means men should abuse women.  On the contrary, but
> no one should risk themselves if they know what causes a risky
> situation.  This does not mean women or anyone else is to be blamed for
> being hurt.
>
> On the other hand, black lives matter as much as white lives.  Having
> many black men in jail or abused or dead by police force is not a
> problem of black people.  It is a problem of people in general.
>
> So this rant against the innocent in order to win rights is itself an
> injustice.  It should not be supported or uncontested.  Consensus (not
> abusing back) is the only way to avoid oppression.  The best way to
> avoid victims is not victimizing the group back with constrictive codes
> of conduct. That becomes a greater evil: censorship.  Doing evil to
> produce good is no justification to become a thug.
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Re: Why does Daniel Pocock lie about volunteers

[Danny Spitzberg]

I appreciate your quest for truth, but in these current circumstances with
virtually (no pun) everyone on email a bit or a lot more than usual, would
you consider maybe reducing the volume of emails you send to <10 per day,
and/or staying on the same threads?

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 3:47 PM garfield 
wrote:

> Why does Daniel Pocock send mails that falsely claim the Debian Project
> leader sent a mail to debian-private titled "debconf19 diversity girls"
> when this never happend? Why does he lie about what volunteers do?
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Re: more debian censorship: debian-project list

[Danny Spitzberg]

Yea, no, I am offering some language I've found useful in discerning free
speech/censorship in terms of either legitimate criticism in hopes of
building loose consensus, or fragile attacks in bad faith. I agree that
this "gutter nazi" (excellent choice of phrase) ought to be shut down.

On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:50 AM  wrote:

> > The most common disingenuous use of the right of free speech orgoodness
> of free speech in geek arguments is to conflate it with a right tofreedom
> from criticism
> im glad you claim to be open to criticism danny, because i think youre
> full of shit.
>
> this email thread started because some gutter nazi at debian decided that
> palestine doesnt deserve to be addressed by free software advocates-- so he
> took it upon himself to join with their oppressors by silencing any mention
> of bringing free software to them.
>
> that has nothing to do with criticism and your condescending advice to
> read what wikipedia says free speech is-- like we havent heard tripe like
> yours about how free speech isnt freedom from criticism...
>
> it is wirt, not we, who are dodging all criticism via the use of
> censorship.
>
> the fact that you imply that we are dodging criticism by complaining about
> censorship either betrays the fact that you werent paying attention and
> simply spamming us with your tripe-- or like i said, you dont care about
> censorship and are simply defending it with your bullshit.
>
> my guess based on experience with your type of trolling is the latter. but
> make no mistake, i could always be wrong. it would be nice to be wrong a
> little more often, but you are the one defending censorship based on an
> argument COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS SITUATION.
>
> i could have you completely and utterly wrong, but until there is evidence
> to the contrary, im just going to tell you to go fuck yourself.
>
> why? because i probably have you exactly right, and thats exactly what
> authoritarian fanboy assholes like yourself should do. go fuck yourself.
>
> i didnt want to be too ambiguous, you know. couching dishonesty in layers
> of bullshit is YOUR job, not mine.
>
>
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Re: on SJWs and feminists

[Danny Spitzberg]

Yep, I’ll agree there’s a lot of fascist-like behavior under the guise of
freedom of speech. Quite the horseshoe effect!

Here’s what I propose:

Let’s all take the weekend off!
Give the list a break, spare our inboxes!
Enjoy a short break to reflect and think about the future.
Then, we can all get back to it on Monday.

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 7:58 AM Christian Imhorst <
christian.imho...@fsfe.org> wrote:

> Dear Daniel,
>
> Am 18.10.19 um 11:24 schrieb Daniel Pocock:
> > As a native English speaker, I'll simply comment that some people do
> > generally use the word "gas" in that context
>
> okay but ahilter doesn't, because he wrote:
>
> Am 17.10.19 um 16:41 schrieb ahil...@keemail.me:
>  > people like you *would have been gassed* for attacking our leader!
>
> This cannot be misunderstood with farting:
>
> "Had we arrived just two days earlier, we *would have been gassed*
> immediately." --
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/26/tales-from-auschwitz-survivor-stories
>
> RMS Support uses the language of fascists extensively:
>
> Am 18.10.19 um 03:11 schrieb RMS Support :
>  > We have to defend our owns. It is time to stand up against the scum
>  > that infiltrates us, against the intruders in our once clean and pure
>  > societies. We have to regain free speech. The death of free forums may
>  > not be forgotten! And the first outbursts of rebellion have already
>  > been seen, just recently in Germany.
>
> Here we have a pronounced dichotomous or fascist thinking in the
> mutually exclusive categories friend and enemy, we and the others,
> especially with regard to the interior of society. The inner enemy of
> fascist society plays at least as important a role as the outer enemy.
> He is identified as a "popular pest", a threat to one's own "blood" or
> as "scum" of the once clean and pure society. Above all the own fiction
> of the "Jew", "Semite" and the other "race" serves this purpose also
> "Feminists", "Gay/Trans people", "Greens", "the Left" etc. From them it
> is necessary to purify their society.
>
> See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Nazi_Germany
>
> Last but not least he is linking to the platform for the alt-right and
> he really claims that the anti-Semitic attack in Halle could be fake news:
>
> Am 18.10.19 um 15:03 schrieb Truth Teller :
>  > Killing people is the last resort. That is why there are still wars
> going on even under participation of honest countries and leaders. I
> don't precizely know what happened in Halle but as always we have to
> look out for fake news. Like I said earlier, let us not be distracted by
> these:
>  >
>  > -->
>
> https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2019/10/18/viral-video-of-homophobic-attack-denounced-as-fake-news/
>  >
>
> Do you really want to attack the free software movement together with
> alt-right fascists?
>
> Regards
> Christian
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Re: Reporting mailing list as spam == being a swine (was: transparency and succession)

[Danny Spitzberg]

This email and many others on this list have been landing in my spam folder

On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 9:57 AM Lori Nagel  wrote:

> I usually flag stuff as spam after I try to unsubscribe (from whatever,
> after all I might have inadvertently signed up and then changed my mind)
> and still keep getting unwanted emails. Unfortunately, I get a lot of spam
> related to politics now.
> Is this list spam? No, it is a list that you can leave.
> On Monday, September 30, 2019, 3:22:15 PM EDT, Dmitry Alexandrov <
> 321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Florian Snow  wrote:
>
> > If you were under the impression that it is and what to leave, you can
> use this link: https://lists.fsfellowship.eu/mailman/options/discussion
> >
> > If you don't want to take those steps, you could also flag these mails
> as spam and eventually, they will stop coming.
>
>
> I’m not sympathetic to misinformation, but what you suggest is even worse.
>
> The worst thing can happen, when a person was subscribed to a mailing
> list, is that he starts getting information he do not want.
>
> Whereas flagging mail as spam in a typical modern setup means reporting it
> somewhere, so by doing that you increase the odds of someone else missing
> an important piece of information that he _do_ want to get.
>
> Never flag mail that might be useful for anyone as spam, unless your are
> sure that these flags remain purely local.  (Or unless you want to be a
> swine).
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Re: consent to be deceived?

[Danny Spitzberg]

Re. “the internet fundamental disagrees with me” — hey, if you’re talking
to the internet, can you please ask it to post the recording of Bradley
Kuhn’s LibrePlanet talk? Information wants to be free, right?

But seriously, as long as I’m getting double emails about #RiseUp!!1 and so
on, I’m on a new list. Re-read the excerpt from the subscription
confirmation e-mail (“ignore this and nothing will happen”) and you’ll see
misinformation in the name of what I’ll generously call vigilante justice.

I will say it’s that too bad that FSF is in tumult and changed it’s terms
to prevent the occasional murder/execution conspiracy claim. I guess it’s
also entertaining to see so much righteous indignation and the occasional
assassination speculation.

But in practical terms..., I’m glad to see Daniel’s conduct and this list
referred to as spam.

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 10:36 PM Christopher Waid 
wrote:

> On 2019-09-30 01:06 AM, Florian Snow wrote:
> > On September 30, 2019 12:06:37 AM GMT+02:00, Christopher Waid
> >  wrote:
> >> This is like saying because I setup a new server
> >
> > That is not what happened.
> >
> >
> >> In any event none of this theoretical chatter
> >> matters much. You are on
> >> the internet and the internet fundamentally
> >> disagrees with you. It's
> >> not the law that matters because the law
> >> differs from place to place and we
> >> are all in different places. It's fundamentally
> >> how the internet works
> >> that matters and the fact you are on two lists
> >> now is evidence of that fact.
> >
> > According to this, everything that factually happens, is OK.
>
> Of course not. What I was saying was relative to the internet.
>
> > Awesome!
> > So if someone hires a hitman online, only the hitman can be legally
> > charged.
>
> If a hitman commits murder than yes- the hitman should be charged.
>
> > Spam,
>
> I have no issue with spam. You can't stop it and you agreed to it by
> utilizing the very nature of the technology. Anything you do via law is
> through the use of violence and that is morally wrong. Spam isn't going
> to kill you.
>
> > DDoS attacks,
>
> Same thing. I'd not encourage it. Nor would I encourage spam. However it
> is part of what you agree to when getting online.
>
> > copying data without consent,
>
> I'm not even sure this makes any sense. What is it even mean? A copy
> certainly isn't theft. No.
>
> > all OK because they factually happen.
>
> Nope. You left out the whole internet part.
>
> >
> > If only the real world was like this: We could punch or stab each
> > other and it would be OK because it happened. Oh, wait, perhaps we
> > introduced laws to avoid that situation, and perhaps that is also why
> > we we live by rules in society that do not depend on laws.
> > ___
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> > Discussion@lists.fsfellowship.eu
> > https://lists.fsfellowship.eu/mailman/listinfo/discussion
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Re: FSF Resign Awards: Call for Nominations

[Danny Spitzberg]

I thought Bradley’s 2018 “state of the copyleft union“ talk at LibrePlanet
was a rare and important bit of positive constructive criticism for
free/libre software.

Sadly, it was met with mixed reactions from the audience- including RMS who
apparently saw it as defeatist, because he yelled “We’re not licked yet!!”
and then stormed the stage to give an impromptu rebuttal.

I don’t have much context for other contributions from Bradley, but that
one talk was a breath of fresh air and levelheadedness.

(Bradly, do you know the whereabouts of that talk, the notes, or dare I
imagine, the video?)

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 1:51 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <
adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Re: nomination for the FSF Resign Awards:
> For the internet drama "The Backstabber"
>
> Bradley M. Kuhn:
> Best Director
> Best Open Source advocate
>
>
> Friends, hackers, coders, men, lend me your ears!
>
> Rise up to eject backstabbers of Freedom – not praise them;
>
> The evil such men do lives after them
>
> Ambition should be made of sterner stuff;
>
> Oh judgement! Thou art fled to brutish beests
>
> But not our GNU, though wilde, will not be tamed
>
> By men – he/him they/them who have lost their reason;
>
> Who conceal the yoke under Hats of garish colour Red,
>
> Who steal upon Freedom, Softly, with Micro vision,
>
> Or who, Google-eyed, seek to buy those entirely willing.
>
>
> Who amongst us has the balls
>
> And choose to lend them to our cause?
>
> Will Rise Up and tear down walls
>
> Intended to subvert our GPL laws?
>
>
>
> #RiseUp and Gravitate to GNU!
> http://www.codeartnow.com/gallery-1/freedom/gravitating-to-gnu
>
>
> Adrienne
> --
> Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
>
> GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
> Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
> Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
> Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
>
>
> Notes:
>
> Inspired by William Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar"; words spoken by Mark
> Antony:
>
>
> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/56968/speech-friends-romans-countrymen-lend-me-your-ears
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 2:28 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <
> adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It is my sincere (dis)pleasure to make the following nomination for the
>> Free Software Foundation Resign Awards:
>>
>> For the internet drama "The Backstabber"
>>
>> Bradley M. Kuhn:
>> Best Director
>> Best Open Source advocate
>>
>> Calling on the Free Software community to post your nominations now!
>>
>> #RiseUp and Gravitate to GNU!
>> http://www.codeartnow.com/gallery-1/freedom/gravitating-to-gnu
>>
>> Adrienne G. Thompson
>> Principal and Executive Director, GNU C-Graph
>>
>
>
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Re: consent to be deceived?

[Danny Spitzberg]

Here's the important bit from email I received on Sep. 22:
> If you want to decline this invitation, please simply disregard this
> message.  If you have any questions, please send them to
> discussion-ow...@lists.fsfellowship.eu."

I did nothing, and yet, I got magically subscribed!

So, Christopher, while I'm grateful for the explanation of how this thing
called the Internet works, you seem to misunderstand that I'm talking
specifically about *consent* -- and you also seem to disagree with what
happened, which is why I shared the above quote. For further reading on
consent, I'm happy to share a lovely website and publication that explains
the concept as it pertains to technology: http://www.consentfultech.io/.
Borrowing from that framework: I was misinformed, and I was certainly not
enthusiastic about it.

It's really no wonder to me any more why FSF die-hards dismiss any kind of
constructive criticism -- from Bradley Kuhn's 2018 LibrePlanet talk to this
email from a...@libregraphicsworld.org on Sep. 27:

> Dear Daniel,
>
> You subscribed me to a bunch of lists without my explicit permission
> and now you expect me to do the dirty work of unsubscribing.
>
> What were you thinking?

And, no response from Daniel so far.

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 1:45 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <
adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Daniel:
>
> On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 3:42 PM Robert Call (Bob)  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 2019-09-29 at 08:30 -0700, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>> > Daniel, clearly there are many people here demanding to be removed
>> > from this list.
>> >
>>
>> I am not one of those people.
>>
>> > And when I receive two emails from Adrienne about #RiseUp, etc. ...
>>
>
> :)
>
>
>> Please remove me, and everyone you added.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Please don't remove me from this list.
>
>
> Please don't remove me either!!!
>
> Adrienne
>
> --
> Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN!
>
> GNU C-Graph - http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph
> Code Art Now - http://codeartnow.com
> Abertheid Campaign - http://www.abertheid.info
> Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph
>
>
>
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Re: consent to be deceived? (was: Re: best way to support Free Software financially?)

[Danny Spitzberg]

Daniel, clearly there are many people here demanding to be removed from
this list.

And when I receive two emails from Adrienne about #RiseUp, etc. via FSF and
FSFE, it’s clear that this list is a *new* list you’ve subscribed me to
*without my consent.*

It’s pretty embarrassing to see your hand-wringing and spin about
censorship, too - if you ever poke around the fascist #MAGA corner of
Twitter, you’ll see disingenuous complaining about ‘the truth’ (hate speech
and abusive content) being ‘censored’ when what is actually happening is,
it’s simply not getting more attention - and rightfully so.

Please remove me, and everyone you added.

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 2:55 AM Florian Snow  wrote:

>
>
> On September 29, 2019 9:42:25 AM GMT+02:00, Daniel Pocock <
> dan...@pocock.pro> wrote:
> >This is the same list with a new name,
>
> No, it is a new list with a similar name (in order to confuse and deceive)
> and you subscribed everyone without their consent.
>
>
> >Censorship on the FSFE-operated list is a form >of deception, it hides
> the views of some people.
>
> I am quite happy to prevent certain statements through moderation. Racist
> statements come to mind, for example. And you also turn moderation on here,
> so there you go.
>
>
> > There is no evidence that Fellows consented
> >to being deceived.
>
> Exactly. So comply with the unsubscribe requests.
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Re: consent to be deceived? (was: Re: best way to support Free Software financially?)

[Danny Spitzberg]

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 12:42 AM Daniel Pocock  wrote:

>
>
> On 29/09/2019 02:07, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> > I did not subscribe nor consent to be subscribed to this list
> >
>
> This is the same list with a new name, discussing the same topic, how we
> can support free software


No, it is not; I am now on two lists and never requested nor consented to
be subscribed

My consent supersedes whatever beliefs you have of censorship

So, unsubscribe me

Please, and thanks




>
> Censorship on the FSFE-operated list is a form of deception, it hides
> the views of some people.  There is no evidence that Fellows consented
> to being deceived.
>
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Re: best way to support Free Software financially?

[Danny Spitzberg]

I did not subscribe nor consent to be subscribed to this list

Daniel, please remove me, and please consider removing everyone else who is
in the same situation

On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 4:24 PM Daniel Pocock  wrote:

>
> Many people in FSF and FSFE have been reflecting on whether to donate
> again given the current problems in each organization.
>
> It is disturbing for me that I have now had quite a few discussions with
> people who donated to these groups in the past, stopped donating and
> then completely abandoned free software altogether because they were so
> incredibly disillusioned.  That's right: they didn't just go to another
> group: they felt so bad that they cut all ties with free software activism.
>
> Why do these groups have that impression on people?
>
> The question "do I give my money to FSF/FSFE now?" isn't really the
> right one.
>
> A better question to ask might be: "what impact do I want my money to
> have?"
>
> It may feel convenient subscribing to a recurring payment.  This could
> also be the worst thing you could do.  Many organizations take those
> payments for granted.
>
> You need to make them work for your money.  Imagine if the same country
> won the FIFA world cup every 4 years.  Would they work hard?  Or would
> the players get fat?  When you have automatic payments to one group, it
> is not much better than that.
>
> Imagine you need a surgery.  Will you choose:
>
> a) the doctor with the lowest number of dead patients?
> b) the doctor with the lowest price?
> c) the doctor who makes you feel good and always has young interns of
> the opposite sex at the reception desk?
>
> When it comes to charitable giving, many people choose (c), not (a).
> Emotions win over logic.
>
> In recent years, we have had new options with crowdfunding.  Yet that
> also has irregularities: some projects are being over-funded and deliver
> nothing.  In other cases, developers put all their energy into making
> videos and Kickstarter "rewards", a tedious process that they don't
> enjoy, then they fail to reach their funding target and feel that the
> marketing effort was wasted time that could have simply been spent doing
> what they enjoy, coding.
>
> How do we correct these imbalances?  How do we fund both activism and
> code in the right proportion?  All ideas are welcome.
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel
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