Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Trey Hunner]

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On 04/29/2014 08:58 PM, Michael Manfre wrote:
> From DEP 001:
> 
> "Once you've written a DEP and submitted the pull request, post a
> message about it to the django-developers mailing list. At that point,
> Django developers will make sure it's technically feasible, not spam,
> etc., assign it a DEP number and commit it to the repository as
> "Active." This doesn't mean the feature will be implemented; it merely
> means the proposal is officially a DEP."
> 
> There are two DEP pull requests that seem to have sat for two weeks
> waiting to be merged in as "Active" with numbers assigned. They are both
> clearly not spam and are technically feasible. I'm curious why they have
> not been moved along in the process.

I'm not convinced that the open pull requests are a problem.  I don't
see any comments on any of the pull requests stating that a DEP seems
ready to be merged.

Maybe the problem here is an unclear/absent process for merging?  I
would think merging should purposely be delayed because once the DEP is
merged it is no longer active unless a new pull request is made to
modify it.

The current process assigns a number only after the pull request has
been merged.  I'm not sure those two steps should be related.
Assignment of a DEP number could happen *before* the pull request is merged.

How does the PEP process handle this?  Are threads ever declared "done"
and if so is that finalization separate from the assignment of a PEP number?

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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Trey Hunner]

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Adding my two cents below regarding DEPs.

On 05/08/2014 05:49 AM, Łukasz Rekucki wrote:
> Discussing DEPs on Github inside Pull Request comments seems like a
> really bad idea, because it excludes a whole bunch of people that are
> subscribed to this list (I always thought this was the sole purpose of
> this list).

I just submitted a DEP and I actually preferred the pull request method
over an email thread.

I like the pull request method because I am more likely to open a pull
request or comment on a pull request than to send an email to this
mailing list.  Sending an email seems like a big deal because it's set
in stone and making a correction to it requires sending at least one
follow up email.

I also like that a pull request is available for reading and feedback
without being buried by mailing list threads.  My DEP hasn't been
updated in 4 days because I've been busy, but others can still easily
find it by scanning the pull requests page on the DEPs repository.


> The best thing about PEPs is that they always get posted to python-dev
> in *full text* and the discussion happens there. The email thread then
> gets recorded inside the PEP so that 10 years later you can easily
> read the whole discussion. Github comments don't have this feature,
> really.

Maybe this system should be setup as a two stage process:

1. Create a DEP and make small revisions on the pull request based on
feedback and new insights

2. Post to the mailing list after milestone changes, possibly copying
the full DEP text or by just referencing the URL and overview of the DEP

That way both the mailing list and deps repository watchers would stay
informed, but the mailing list would only hear about larger changes.

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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Michael Manfre]

Hi Jannis,


On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Jannis Leidel  wrote:

> Michael,
>
> First, I would appreciate if you'd give feedback in a less passive
> aggressive style. I hope it's just a matter of language barrier but your
> mail came over as far too demanding for just a "curious" question.
>

I apologize if my email came across as passive aggressive. Probably an
artifact of the dozens of revisions I made while composing it. My usual
nature is overly direct and I put a great deal of time and effort revising
my emails to make sure that my directness cannot be interpreted as
aggressive. I will continue to extensively revise my emails to the list
before clicking send because I think it is better to be interpreted as
passive aggressive instead of outright aggressive. When directing emails to
you, I'll try to be more direct so please assume that anything I write is
not meant to be offensive or an attack.

If you or anyone else thinks I'm being too direct or not direct enough,
feel free to call me out on it or ask me to clarify anything I've rewritten
and I'd be happy to do so.


> but simply no one spent the time doing the necessary steps to mark a DEP
> as active.


That is the entire point of my various DEP related emails. The process is
new and not well understood, especially by those of us in the community
that are left wondering and waiting.


> Next to personal reasons like recuperating from PyCon I think the fact
> that it's a new effort means
> also some hiccups and awkward waiting. Please bare with us and in doubt
> lean toward the side where you see us as humans and not machines
> implementing a process.
>

My biggest gripe about the process so far is the lack of communication.
Just like the devs, the community members are humans and largely comprised
of volunteers. If we were machines, there would be no complaints as we
block waiting for an unknown amount of time for something to happen. If I
hadn't written my emails, how many weeks/months do you think it would have
been before the next steps took place or anything was communicated about
what the community can expect? There will always be a conference or
personal reason. I understand that and our personal lives are clearly more
important than Django. This is also the reason why I asked questions about
if there are enough active core developers. This is a new process that
demands more time of the core team.

Regards,
Michael Manfre

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Re: Feature request: ttl method for cache

[Malcolm Box]

Ticket filed and pull request for fix
https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/22606


On 9 May 2014 10:38, Malcolm Box  wrote:

>
> On Thursday, 8 May 2014 16:59:55 UTC+1, Piotr Gosławski wrote:
>>
>> I was fixing my little helper function to behave more like Sean's and I
>> think I've found a bug in locmem. Could you please take a look at this:
>>
>> Either I'm missing something or has_key() is not working correctly for
>> keys without expiration time.
>>
>
> I think you're right - this is related to this bug:
> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/22495 and caused by the same patch.
>
> File a ticket, and I'll have a look at fixing.
>
> Malcolm
>
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Re: Feature request: ttl method for cache

[Malcolm Box]

On Thursday, 8 May 2014 16:59:55 UTC+1, Piotr Gosławski wrote:
>
> I was fixing my little helper function to behave more like Sean's and I 
> think I've found a bug in locmem. Could you please take a look at this:
>
> Either I'm missing something or has_key() is not working correctly for 
> keys without expiration time.
>

I think you're right - this is related to this 
bug: https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/22495 and caused by the same 
patch.

File a ticket, and I'll have a look at fixing.

Malcolm

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Re: [GSOC] Shifting to Py.Test and Improving the Test Suite

[Andrew Pashkin]

Another advantage of Pytest is its ability to launch tests written in 
all styles - PyUnit, Nose, and Pytest own style.
Recently I understood that it is a good practice to launch tests not 
only for project, but for all packages it uses before deployment - to 
ensure that nothing is broken (like missing system library that causes 
failure in functionality of image manipulation package, etc).


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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Jannis Leidel]

Aymeric,

On 08.05.14 19:23, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
> On 8 mai 2014, at 16:26, Michael Manfre  wrote:
> 
>> It's been almost a month and the next step in the process for the first two 
>> DEPs is to merge the PRs and assign numbers to make them "active". The 
>> discussion for each of them can take place over the coming months. I hate to 
>> sound so cynical, but if none of the 30+ current core developers are able to 
>> find 10-15 minutes of available time over the span of a month to merge and 
>> assign a number to a DEP, I think it's safe to say that the DEP process is 
>> not going to work in its current form.
> 
> If you consider core devs who made a non-trivial commit in the last three 
> months, the baseline isn't 30+ people, it's just a handful. If you further 
> reduce this set to the people who were at PyCon when the idea of DEPs was 
> discussed, you probably arrive at zero. Core devs who aren't active anymore 
> often get excited at conferences but that doesn't give them free time to 
> execute afterwards.

DEPs have been discussed for years and only recently been picked up
again to handle new feature proposals and bigger changes in a more
favorable format to the massive amount of mailing list threads that
we've used up until now. I thought you'd be the first to welcome such a
change :)

> Besides the 10-15 minutes could easily turn into becoming the contact person 
> for these PEPs :-)
> 
>> 1) The DEP process was quickly brainstormed and put in to practice. Did this 
>> move too quickly? Should this sort of process change be more conscientious 
>> of the Django release cycle and not take place after the feature freeze?
> 
> I think we're mostly missing someone to bootstrap the process. Since no one 
> in the core team appears to be interested, if someone else wants to take the 
> matter into his/her own hands, I'm happy to advocate for partial committer 
> status 
> (https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/contributing/committing-code/#commit-access).
>  Contact me privately if you wish to discuss this.

It wasn't quickly brainstormed, in fact it goes way back:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/django-developers/QguOVc3ymmQ/c1D0aFf3-w8J

As I wrote to Micheal in a different mail already, at least Adrian and
me were interested in the process to the fact that we sat down and did
it. We also didn't decide that in a corner alone but during the Django
core lunch with a lot of core devs attending, I would guess with around
20 core devs. I'm sorry that you see the little activity of a month as
an indication of missing interest. Adrian offered to be the contact
person but left it open to the rest of the core developers to mark a DEP
as active. Since at least two core devs have given feedback in the pull
requests it's up to them to make a DEP "active", after it has been
written I should note. "active" means "implementation" AFAIU.

>> 2) The core devs know their "territory" in the code, but did enough of them 
>> agree to take on /django/deps before it was put in to practice?
> 
> Undoubtedly.

Yes, around 20 (does anyone remember the exact count?) during the PyCon
core dev lunch.

>> 3) Django lists over 30 current core developers. Does Django have enough 
>> *active* core developers for its current user base and existing processes? 
>> Is there a process in place for moving an inactive core developer from 
>> "Current Developers" to "Developers Emeritus"?
> 
> 
> Classifying core devs wouldn't achieve much. Removing core devs has no 
> practical benefit, on the contrary. Our availability comes and goes. That's 
> life! However, we all know that there's no such thing as too many core devs 
> and that we would benefit from a larger core team.
> 

I'm not sure how this is connected to the DEPs, it seems to me as if
Michael is trying to force a discussion on core committer policy without
actual offering proposal that we can weigh. I would like to ask to open
a separate thread about this.

Thanks,
Jannis



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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Jannis Leidel]

Michael,

First, I would appreciate if you'd give feedback in a less passive
aggressive style. I hope it's just a matter of language barrier but your
mail came over as far too demanding for just a "curious" question.

As far as I can see there has been activity in the pull requests
(including from core devs) but simply no one spent the time doing the
necessary steps to mark a DEP as active. Next to personal reasons like
recuperating from PyCon I think the fact that it's a new effort means
also some hiccups and awkward waiting. Please bare with us and in doubt
lean toward the side where you see us as humans and not machines
implementing a process.

Thanks!
Jannis



On 30.04.14 05:58, Michael Manfre wrote:
> From DEP 001:
> 
> "Once you've written a DEP and submitted the pull request, post a
> message about it to the django-developers mailing list. At that point,
> Django developers will make sure it's technically feasible, not spam,
> etc., assign it a DEP number and commit it to the repository as
> "Active." This doesn't mean the feature will be implemented; it merely
> means the proposal is officially a DEP."
> 
> There are two DEP pull requests that seem to have sat for two weeks
> waiting to be merged in as "Active" with numbers assigned. They are both
> clearly not spam and are technically feasible. I'm curious why they have
> not been moved along in the process.
> 
> I think the DEP concept has a lot of potential, but it's already
> starting to have the feel of a bureaucratic barrier that will probably
> discourage people from contributing.
> 
> Regards,
> Michael Manfre
> 
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