Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On 5/18/07, Jacob Kaplan-Moss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm +1 on these changes, including using "!" as the "look somewhere > else for the password" designator. Would it really be "look somewhere else for the password" or would it be more like "if you got this far (all other authentication methods failed), and you got this value (no password is stored), you're out of luck"? It may seem like a strange distinction to make, but it goes a bit to the philosophy of it, which could affect its implementation in general. The way you worded it, I would expect the implementation to check try a password first, and if it doesn't find one, it would then look at other sources (like OpenID). This would mean that users would be required to not have a password in order for other schemes to work. I doubt that's the way you meant it, but it might be worth being clear on the subject, especially if the process gets documented for the sake of future authentication authors. I'm probably just splitting hairs though, so disregard as necessary. -Marty --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On 5/10/07, Simon Willison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I propose the following changes: I'm +1 on these changes, including using "!" as the "look somewhere else for the password" designator. Jacob --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
Sorry, I misunderstood. The last association is only deleted when the password is set. Got it. Regards, Max --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
> The problem with using a random password is that you can't answer the > question "does this account have a password set?". I need to be able > to answer that question because my OpenID implementation allows users > to associate mupltiple OpenIDs with a single account. I want to let > them delete associations as well, but prevent them from deleting the > very last association unless they have set a password for their > account (to stop them from locking themselves out). A slightly offtopic maybe, but... So, the only way to know if the user is associated to an OpenID identifier is the fact that the password is not set? Seems to be a weak proof. If the User record can be without a password globally, what will stop someone to register a passwordless account without OpenID involved? What would be the username? Does the user knows the username of the User record associated with his OpenID set? Why not to prevent the user from deleting the last association when the association is actually *the last*? BTW, I watch Your Django/OpenId progress closely because I'm building the similar thing currently myself. We could cooperate if You're interested. Regards, Max --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On May 11, 4:23 pm, Niels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Or you could use the traditional > > Unix password invalidator -- "!" -- which might be more mnemonic for > > some people and is easier to pick out of a data dump than a space (and > > will also never be a valid string, since we use '$' as a separator). > > So how about "openid$" ?? I think I'll go with ! (thanks Malcolm - I didn't know that piece of Unix arcania). openid$ assumes that the only reason you would leave the password field blank is if you were using OpenID, but there are plenty of other reasons you might have a blank password field (using LDAP or Yahoo! BBAuth or similar for example). Cheesr, Simon --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 08:23 -0700, Niels wrote: > On May 11, 5:07 pm, Malcolm Tredinnick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > So does that mean that I should store a single blank space in the > > > password field to represent "no password set"? > > > > The purists will be breaking out the pitchforks and flaming torches > > ( :-) ), but that would be a backwards-compatible solution, yes. All the > > password types start with a "type" designator, so a single blank space > > will never be a valid password entry. Or you could use the traditional > > Unix password invalidator -- "!" -- which might be more mnemonic for > > some people and is easier to pick out of a data dump than a space (and > > will also never be a valid string, since we use '$' as a separator). > > > > So how about "openid$" ?? We want one "empty" value, surely. Not one per type of thing that uses an empty value. Or am I missing a subtlety? Malcolm --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On May 11, 5:07 pm, Malcolm Tredinnick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So does that mean that I should store a single blank space in the > > password field to represent "no password set"? > > The purists will be breaking out the pitchforks and flaming torches > ( :-) ), but that would be a backwards-compatible solution, yes. All the > password types start with a "type" designator, so a single blank space > will never be a valid password entry. Or you could use the traditional > Unix password invalidator -- "!" -- which might be more mnemonic for > some people and is easier to pick out of a data dump than a space (and > will also never be a valid string, since we use '$' as a separator). > So how about "openid$" ?? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 14:51 +, Simon Willison wrote: > On May 11, 3:40 pm, Martin Winkler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Certainly Oracle treats them empty string as equal to NULL. But does > > > that mean you can't put an empty string in a "not NULL" column in > > > Oracle? > > > > Exactly. If you want to insert something meaningless into a column that > > has a NOT NULL constraint in oracle, then you have to put at least > > one space character into it. > > So does that mean that I should store a single blank space in the > password field to represent "no password set"? The purists will be breaking out the pitchforks and flaming torches ( :-) ), but that would be a backwards-compatible solution, yes. All the password types start with a "type" designator, so a single blank space will never be a valid password entry. Or you could use the traditional Unix password invalidator -- "!" -- which might be more mnemonic for some people and is easier to pick out of a data dump than a space (and will also never be a valid string, since we use '$' as a separator). Regards, Malcolm --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On May 11, 3:40 pm, Martin Winkler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Certainly Oracle treats them empty string as equal to NULL. But does > > that mean you can't put an empty string in a "not NULL" column in > > Oracle? > > Exactly. If you want to insert something meaningless into a column that > has a NOT NULL constraint in oracle, then you have to put at least > one space character into it. So does that mean that I should store a single blank space in the password field to represent "no password set"? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
> Certainly Oracle treats them empty string as equal to NULL. But does > that mean you can't put an empty string in a "not NULL" column in > Oracle? Exactly. If you want to insert something meaningless into a column that has a NOT NULL constraint in oracle, then you have to put at least one space character into it. I know, it's sad. (And one of a couple things why I dislike using Oracle) Martin --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
Simon Willison wrote: > The problem with using a random password is that you can't answer the > question "does this account have a password set?". I need to be able > to answer that question because my OpenID implementation allows users > to associate mupltiple OpenIDs with a single account. I want to let > them delete associations as well, but prevent them from deleting the > very last association unless they have set a password for their > account (to stop them from locking themselves out). Got it, thanks! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On May 11, 7:50 am, Ivan Sagalaev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > At the moment, django.contrib.auth does not support creating a user > > account without setting a password. > > Why not generate a random one? It won't break an ability to authenticate > using OpenID or any other backend for that matter. I've used this > approach with my OpenID auth backend and didn't encounter any downsides. The problem with using a random password is that you can't answer the question "does this account have a password set?". I need to be able to answer that question because my OpenID implementation allows users to associate mupltiple OpenIDs with a single account. I want to let them delete associations as well, but prevent them from deleting the very last association unless they have set a password for their account (to stop them from locking themselves out). --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
Twas brillig at 16:02:43 11.05.2007 UTC+04 when Ivan Sagalaev did gyre and gimble: IS> A comment in my code is about username part, not password :-). That means that your code lacks the comment required for understanding your intent. IS> I would indeed be glad to have some generalized method to associate IS> OpenID's with User's but it's not the question of this thread. See the subject: "Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional". IS> "Ugliness" is a subjective thing and I personally don't see IS> 'make_random_password' as particularly ugly. This is why I ask about purely IS> technical issues with this. Exressing intention in the code IS technical issue: it influences maintenability of the code. Not even mentioning that from the logical view having a password for a account which does not have password is plainly broken. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On May 11, 5:30 am, Simon Willison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm working on a new component for my Django OpenID package which will > provide support for associating one or more OpenIDs with a > django.contrib.auth User. As part of this, I want to include the > ability to register for a new user account using an OpenID instead of > a password. Btw, yesterday I've finished this on current django-dev. I used your library django-openid. Will write about this today. Definitely, "Account" and "User" entities should be separated in further versions of django, but I was much more interested in solution for the current moment, so I added OpenIDUser class which mimics User, has openid field, but which just do nothing on set_password and get_password. Looking forward to following django core changes. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
Mikhail Gusarov wrote: > Because generation of random password is an ugly workaround. Your solution > requires long comment which explains to the reader of code, why do random > password is needed in first place. A comment in my code is about username part, not password :-). I would indeed be glad to have some generalized method to associate OpenID's with User's but it's not the question of this thread. "Ugliness" is a subjective thing and I personally don't see 'make_random_password' as particularly ugly. This is why I ask about purely technical issues with this. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 09:50 +0200, Michael van der Westhuizen wrote: > Hi Simon, > > On 5/11/07, Simon Willison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > [snip] > > 1. The 'password' field in the User model should be altered to have > > blank=True. > > > > This would allow us to set blank passwords as an empty string. It > > would not require existing installations to make any schema changes as > > the column would still be NOT NULL. > > Oracle (and possibly other databases?) treat an empty string as NULL, > so this would break. Certainly Oracle treats them empty string as equal to NULL. But does that mean you can't put an empty string in a "not NULL" column in Oracle? I can't remember the answer to that and I don't have an installed Oracle around that I can test with at the moment. Regards, Malcolm --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
Hi Simon, On 5/11/07, Simon Willison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [snip] > 1. The 'password' field in the User model should be altered to have > blank=True. > > This would allow us to set blank passwords as an empty string. It > would not require existing installations to make any schema changes as > the column would still be NOT NULL. Oracle (and possibly other databases?) treat an empty string as NULL, so this would break. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news :-) Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
Twas brillig at 10:50:57 11.05.2007 UTC+04 when Ivan Sagalaev did gyre and gimble: >> At the moment, django.contrib.auth does not support creating a user account >> without setting a password. IS> Why not generate a random one? It won't break an ability to authenticate IS> using OpenID or any other backend for that matter. I've used this approach IS> with my OpenID auth backend and didn't encounter any downsides. Because generation of random password is an ugly workaround. Your solution requires long comment which explains to the reader of code, why do random password is needed in first place. It's all about expressing intention in code, not the implementation details. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
Simon Willison wrote: > I'm working on a new component for my Django OpenID package which will > provide support for associating one or more OpenIDs with a > django.contrib.auth User. As part of this, I want to include the > ability to register for a new user account using an OpenID instead of > a password. > > At the moment, django.contrib.auth does not support creating a user > account without setting a password. Why not generate a random one? It won't break an ability to authenticate using OpenID or any other backend for that matter. I've used this approach with my OpenID auth backend and didn't encounter any downsides. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Changing django.contrib.auth to make passwords optional
I'm working on a new component for my Django OpenID package which will provide support for associating one or more OpenIDs with a django.contrib.auth User. As part of this, I want to include the ability to register for a new user account using an OpenID instead of a password. At the moment, django.contrib.auth does not support creating a user account without setting a password. OpenID is not the only use case where password-less accounts might be warranted. Any application where authentication takes place against an external source - for example, authenticating against an existing LDAP provider - would also benefit from being able to create Django user accounts without setting a password. I propose the following changes: 1. The 'password' field in the User model should be altered to have blank=True. This would allow us to set blank passwords as an empty string. It would not require existing installations to make any schema changes as the column would still be NOT NULL. 2. user.set_password(password) should be altered to accept 'None' If None is passed to the function, a blank string will be stored instead of an encrypted password. 3. user.has_password() should be added A simple utility method which returns True if the user has a password, False if they do not. 4. check_password should ALWAYS return False if no password is set This should help protect us from introducing any security issues with these changes. Does this sound like a workable plan? If so, I'd like to get the changes in as soon as possible so I can wrap up work on the next version of the OpenID package. Cheers, Simon --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
