Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On Jun 11, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote: > But I've found a workable solution (note the subject of > my reply), so I can stay subscribed. I just know now not to ever ask > for anything to be changed. ;-) You previously mentioned that one-key filtering only works with subject, body, or common fields. Well, every message in the django- users mailing list contains the word "django" in the unsubscribe and posting links at the bottom of its body text. Why not filter on that? In the process, you've just screwed up mail readers that thread messages based on subject text. This post is now no longer connected to the original thread (or wasn't until I edited it). Others that wish to reply to a post and keep it in the original thread need to edit the subject line prior to sending. It may be "workable" for you, but you've now created more work for others. Don --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [django] Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
> As I said abive, when I've done that in the past I never find the time > to dig into all my folders. If I'm going to monitor a list, it needs > to go through my inbox and have me take a manual action to move it to > a folder. I think this is the root of your request. I doubt you will find much support. My suggestion: learn to use the tools. If that really doesn't work for you, plan B: put something in between your mail client and your server that can make the mods you are looking for. my first python app was and email processor, so once you get the plumbing worked out the I can tell you the processing is a piece of cake. Carl K --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Mike Schinkel wrote: > Malcolm Tredinnick wrote: > > Outlook has had rule-based sorting into other mailboxes for a > > while, so I would have thought it was possible to use that. > > It does have that. And I tried that for a while, but found it to be > "out-of-sight, out-of-mind." It's worse than just going to the group page > and searching when I need something. > > How I work with other lists (that use subject headers) is I press Ctrl-F > to > bring up a search box and type "[whatever" (let's assume "[du]" for this > list). That gives me a list of only those emails and when I open them I > can > go to the previous or next email by clicking a button. It is really the > only way I'd found to effectively manage participation in a list (and I've > tried lots of things.) For what it's worth, I use Outlook to read this list, and I prefer not having some fixed text in the subject line. Much as I dislike Outlook, I'm surprised that you find this to be a problem. I have a rule that puts all the messages from this list into their own folder, which works great for me (I can then archive that folder on a different schedule to my other folders, and all the messages are grouped nicely together). Looking at the rules wizard, you could "perform a custom action", "run a script", "flag message with a colored flag" or "assign it to a specific category" (among many other options), any of which sound like they provide other ways of easily finding the messages in this list. Of course if I'm searching for something that may have been discussed on the list, I'll tend to go to the web anyway because I know that the archive there is more complete than the one on my local machine :-) The Lookout search plugin for Outlook allows me to easily search within a specific folder if I'm looking for something I remember seeing. As for the list itself, this is one of the most helpful lists I've found. Chris --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
You should install this plugin for Firefox. It'll help you with your myriad GMail accounts: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1320 Of course it may be that you only use IE, so you may need to join that project's mailing list and request them to rewrite it to support your browser of choice. Seriously, though, I saw this discussion with 30 replies and had to see what all the fuss was about. Very entertaining in a train wreck sort of way. BTW, I use the Google web interface for this list. I find that, as a web developer I'm often using a browser and clicking on a bookmark, or better yet typing Ctrl-L djangousers (my Firefox shortcut for this list) is not that taxing. It's certainly not one of those hard to remember things like turning in my timesheet Thursday mornings. And I would argue emphatically against adding [django-users] or any other redundant text to the subject line when there are perfectly viable alternatives. I would also never ask an entire list to change their ways because my email client wasn't able to keep up with me. :-) On Jun 10, 12:21 am, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Chris Moffitt wrote: > > Not to pile on but if you'd like a google mail account for list > > purposes, > > that's always an option. It has a very nice way of allowing you to tag > messages and file them accordingly. You can also use pop if you want > to consolidate with your other mail boxes. Procmail is also a handy > option.. > > Here's what I did (it's a nasty hack, but we'll see if it works.) I > create a user account for my personal domain ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > and their mail server let me modify the subject like tagging it with > [django] and it works. Of course now I have another account at Google > I have to keep track of, and I have to login and logout between > multiple Google accounts if I want to interact with the Django-users. > > Sigh, this stuff shouldn't be this convoluted. > > -- > -Mike > Schinkelhttp://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/http://www.welldesignedurls.orghttp://atlanta-web.org-http://t.oolicio.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Michael, I'd be happy to send you a gmail invite. It's really a good choice when subscribing to newsgroups like these. Let me know. Michael On 6/10/07, Nimrod A. Abing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello, > > Prior to switching to GMail exclusively, I used to use Outlook or > Outlook Express. I had the same problem that you have now, so I > understand where you're coming from. I used to use a modified > spambayes filter that would modify the Subject field and add a prefix > to it (e.g., SPAM, [LISTNAME]). Sadly, I lost that modification a long > time ago when I switched to Linux and began using procmail for the > same purpose. > > Anyway, just want to point out that there is another solution to your > problem and a Pythonic one at that :) > > See here: > > http://spambayes.sourceforge.net/applications.html > > Note that this plugin requires Outlook 2000 and above and will not > work on Outlook Express. > > IIRC, I modified it so that it skipped the bayesian filter > (consequently bypassing storage of the bayesian stats for the message > body) whenever spambayes is given an email from a mailing list and > just modified the subject line and sent it on its merry way to my > inbox where it got filtered to the correct folder. > > HTH. > > On 6/10/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Chris Moffitt wrote: > > > Not to pile on but if you'd like a google mail account for list > > > purposes, > > that's always an option. It has a very nice way of allowing you to tag > > messages and file them accordingly. You can also use pop if you want > > to consolidate with your other mail boxes. Procmail is also a handy > > option.. > > > > Here's what I did (it's a nasty hack, but we'll see if it works.) I > > create a user account for my personal domain ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > and their mail server let me modify the subject like tagging it with > > [django] and it works. Of course now I have another account at Google > > I have to keep track of, and I have to login and logout between > > multiple Google accounts if I want to interact with the Django-users. > > > > Sigh, this stuff shouldn't be this convoluted. > > > > -- > > -Mike Schinkel > > http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ > > http://www.welldesignedurls.org > > http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > _nimrod_a_abing_ > > http://abing.gotdns.com/ > http://www.preownedcar.com/ > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Hello, Prior to switching to GMail exclusively, I used to use Outlook or Outlook Express. I had the same problem that you have now, so I understand where you're coming from. I used to use a modified spambayes filter that would modify the Subject field and add a prefix to it (e.g., SPAM, [LISTNAME]). Sadly, I lost that modification a long time ago when I switched to Linux and began using procmail for the same purpose. Anyway, just want to point out that there is another solution to your problem and a Pythonic one at that :) See here: http://spambayes.sourceforge.net/applications.html Note that this plugin requires Outlook 2000 and above and will not work on Outlook Express. IIRC, I modified it so that it skipped the bayesian filter (consequently bypassing storage of the bayesian stats for the message body) whenever spambayes is given an email from a mailing list and just modified the subject line and sent it on its merry way to my inbox where it got filtered to the correct folder. HTH. On 6/10/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Chris Moffitt wrote: > > Not to pile on but if you'd like a google mail account for list > > purposes, > that's always an option. It has a very nice way of allowing you to tag > messages and file them accordingly. You can also use pop if you want > to consolidate with your other mail boxes. Procmail is also a handy > option.. > > Here's what I did (it's a nasty hack, but we'll see if it works.) I > create a user account for my personal domain ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > and their mail server let me modify the subject like tagging it with > [django] and it works. Of course now I have another account at Google > I have to keep track of, and I have to login and logout between > multiple Google accounts if I want to interact with the Django-users. > > Sigh, this stuff shouldn't be this convoluted. > > -- > -Mike Schinkel > http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ > http://www.welldesignedurls.org > http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us > > > > > -- _nimrod_a_abing_ http://abing.gotdns.com/ http://www.preownedcar.com/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Chris Moffitt wrote: > Not to pile on but if you'd like a google mail account for list > purposes, that's always an option. It has a very nice way of allowing you to tag messages and file them accordingly. You can also use pop if you want to consolidate with your other mail boxes. Procmail is also a handy option.. Here's what I did (it's a nasty hack, but we'll see if it works.) I create a user account for my personal domain ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and their mail server let me modify the subject like tagging it with [django] and it works. Of course now I have another account at Google I have to keep track of, and I have to login and logout between multiple Google accounts if I want to interact with the Django-users. Sigh, this stuff shouldn't be this convoluted. -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Simon Drabble write
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> > On 10-Jun-07, at 7:33 AM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> >> Does anyone know of a free service (or software) that I
> could proxy
> >> through that would let me add a subject header? Given that it
> >> appears to be a non-negotiable on the list, that's about the only
> >> potential solution left that I can see that would allow me
> to handle
> >> the volume of email on this list.
> > procmail
>
> ..and just to make it super-easy:
>
> #
> # Tag django mailing list
> #
> :0
> * To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> {
> :0 fhc
> | sed -e 's/^Subject: /Subject: [django-users] /'
> }
Thanks guys but sadly (and ironically) it appears procmail doesn't or
is difficult to get running on windows...
http://mirror.ncsa.uiuc.edu/procmail-faq/mini-faq.html#nt
This implies that I can but wouldn't want to, and that it would be
very difficult:
http://www.spambouncer.org/faq.shtml#FAQ02
I googled but couldn't find any Windows binaries...
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On 10-Jun-07, at 7:33 AM, Mike Schinkel wrote: > Does anyone know of a free service (or software) that I could proxy > through > that would let me add a subject header? Given that it appears to be a > non-negotiable on the list, that's about the only potential > solution left > that I can see that would allow me to handle the volume of email on > this > list. procmail -- regards kg http://lawgon.livejournal.com http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Chris:
>> Not to pile on but if you'd like a google mail account for list purposes,
that's always an option. It has a very nice way of allowing you to tag
messages and file them accordingly. You can also use pop if you want to
consolidate with your other mail boxes. Procmail is also a handy option..
Thanks. I had unsubscribed but your email had already come so resubscribed
to reply.
I do use Gmail, and use it with Outlook and POP3. I find it takes 2-3 times
longer and a lot more effort using a web client than to use a desktop
client, and time and energy was what I was trying to save. I've tried
Thunderbird but it is missing so many of Outlook's features that I have come
to depend on that I had to switch back.
One thing I just looked at was to see if Outlook in-box rules will let me
modify the subject on incoming email, but it won't.
I tried using Gmail's tagging function but as best I can tell it doesn't
transmit those tags in any meaningful way to the email client.
Does anyone know of a free service (or software) that I could proxy through
that would let me add a subject header? Given that it appears to be a
non-negotiable on the list, that's about the only potential solution left
that I can see that would allow me to handle the volume of email on this
list.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us
"It never ceases to amaze how many people will proactively debate away
attempts to improve the web..."
From: django-users@googlegroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Moffitt
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 9:35 PM
To: django-users@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
-Chris
On 6/9/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Malcolm Tredinnick wrote;
> > > Outlook has had rule-based sorting into other
mailboxes
> for a while,
> > > so I would have thought it was possible to use that.
> >
> > It does have that. And I tried that for a while, but
found it to be
> > "out-of-sight, out-of-mind." It's worse than just going
to
> the group
> > page and searching when I need something.
>
> So rather than you changing your usage patterns slightly,
you
> want us to change the list appearance for over 5000 other
people.
1.) How many people will be negatively affected? Would
there really be
anybody?
2.) Did you not read that I've tried to changing your usage
patterns
slightly, and nothing works?
> > > Cryptic prefixes don't seem very usable for the
masses. I
> realise it
> > > sounds harsh, but degrading the situation for a lot of
users just
> > > because of flaws in one particular email client isn't
> particularly
> > > fair.
Is initial usability important? It seems it would only be
important to the
new users and after they are no longer new it is no longer
important to
them. Or are you arguing for aethetics?
Either way, your position offers no compromise.
> > I don't be to be contrary or confrontational, but in
what
> > context is it unusable?
>
> What does [du] mean when you're looking at multiple
mailing lists?
> There's absolutely zero context there.
How many people look at multiple lists they have not
subscribed to? If
they've subscribed they'll soon learn what [du] means. I
don't see how that
argument against is valid.
> It's not making things clearer.
I wasn't proposing it to improve clarity. I was proposing a
way to empower
agents to work better. It clarity really all that important
once people
have come to know that [du] = django users?
> > I would think it would be confusing for a person the
> first time they
> > subscribed after which they'd learn what it means and go
> about their
> > business. Heck, what about [django] then? That's
usable.
>
> So we d
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Ramiro Morales wrote: > On 6/9/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I'm curious how many people of the 5000+ would prefer no ID in subject? > >> Is it a majority, or just a very vocal minority? >> > > /me raise hand. > > Come on, even GMail has a way to create a filter > that tags a message according to some pattern in the To: header > (it would be better if the List-Id one could be used but at leas this > works, and very well). > He doesn't want to filter. He wants to search within the one mailbox. Unless I am missunderstanding him. I agree [mail-list-name] takes up space I'd prefer for the full subject. But of course we can be ignored as the vocal minority :-) Dave. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > http://www.robbyonrails.com/articles/2006/04/13/canada-on-rail > s-day-1-part-1 > > Why does this keep seeming more and more accurate every day You mean the part about "This fairly dismissive treatment of people's legitimate concerns...?" -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
James Bennett wrote: > On 6/9/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ironic. I was asking for a method that would help me make the list > > more managable, and have been told "no." Ironic because it > will likely > > cause me to leave before I can really learn more about Django, my > > reason for wanting to get on the list to begin with. But I can't > > handle this volume of email w/o having the tools I need (a > subject indentifer) to manage it. > > The problem, as I see it, is that a prefix ends up trading > potentially valuable screen real estate for an easy way to > filter, when easy ways to filter are already widely > available. I'm subscribed to a variety of lists, and some > have a prefix and some don't. Regardless of prefix, I'm > already having Gmail sort on headers when the messages come > in; that way I can quickly look at any particular list > regardless of what's in the subject line. > > And that screen space can be a big issue -- if you're not > reading in a maximized email client, or if you're not on a > large screen, every character of the subject line is > potentially valuable information that helps you skim and > decide what needs to be read immediately and what can wait a > little while. Taking away some of the actual subject to put > in what is -- to most peoples' email clients -- redundant > information seems like a bad trade. > > The other problem is email clients that insist on bad reply > subjects; a list prefix can end up generating a single > subject line that look like > > Re: [django-users] ... Re: [django-users] ... Re: [django-users] ... > Re: [django-users] ... > > etc. Even with a maximized client on a widescreen monitor, it > can be almost impossible to find the actual subject of the > message in all that. Anecdote: I'm subscribed to at least one > list which is routinely victimized by this problem, and it's > awfully annoying. > > I'm honestly flabbergasted that Outlook apparently can't do > this, but I also haven't really used Outlook in years, and I > have a strong history of advocating for fixing problems at > the root rather than slapping bandages over them; cluttering > subject lines to make up for an email client's shortcomings > seems like it encourages email clients to get even worse, > because the people who have to use them will do the extra > work to make things usable. > > > Just FYI, the [turbogears] list happily burns 12 characters > of their > > subject line, and it make their list oh-so-much-more managable. > > OK. Like I said, I'm subscribed to lists that do it both > ways, and while I subjectively prefer not having a prefix, I > don't think there's an objective solution that will work for > everyone. Either way people will complain, so I think list > admins should pick one way and stick to it; in the case of > this list, the decision's been made. I appreciate your explaination of the subject and I acknowledge your points. Sadly, and I mean that sincerely, it doesn't (currently) work for me to be subscribed to a list with 50+ messages a day that doesn't have a ID in the subject header. So: unsubscribed (and if you feel the need to reply, please do so directly.) -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On 6/9/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm curious how many people of the 5000+ would prefer no ID in subject? > Is > it a majority, or just a very vocal minority? > /me raise hand. Come on, even GMail has a way to create a filter that tags a message according to some pattern in the To: header (it would be better if the List-Id one could be used but at leas this works, and very well). Also, even if it was decided that including the list name in the Subject line is going to be implemented, AFAIK Google Groups has no way to turn that "feature" on. Are you going to ask the list to be moved to another mailing list provider so you can keep using the Outlook keyboard shortcuts you are accustomed to?. Regards, > -- > -Mike Schinkel > http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ > http://www.welldesignedurls.org > http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us > > > > > > > > > > -- Ramiro Morales --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Not to pile on but if you'd like a google mail account for list purposes, that's always an option. It has a very nice way of allowing you to tag messages and file them accordingly. You can also use pop if you want to consolidate with your other mail boxes. Procmail is also a handy option.. -Chris On 6/9/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Malcolm Tredinnick wrote; > > > > Outlook has had rule-based sorting into other mailboxes > > for a while, > > > > so I would have thought it was possible to use that. > > > > > > It does have that. And I tried that for a while, but found it to be > > > "out-of-sight, out-of-mind." It's worse than just going to > > the group > > > page and searching when I need something. > > > > So rather than you changing your usage patterns slightly, you > > want us to change the list appearance for over 5000 other people. > > 1.) How many people will be negatively affected? Would there really be > anybody? > 2.) Did you not read that I've tried to changing your usage patterns > slightly, and nothing works? > > > > > Cryptic prefixes don't seem very usable for the masses. I > > realise it > > > > sounds harsh, but degrading the situation for a lot of users just > > > > because of flaws in one particular email client isn't > > particularly > > > > fair. > > Is initial usability important? It seems it would only be important to > the > new users and after they are no longer new it is no longer important to > them. Or are you arguing for aethetics? > > Either way, your position offers no compromise. > > > > I don't be to be contrary or confrontational, but in what > > > context is it unusable? > > > > What does [du] mean when you're looking at multiple mailing lists? > > There's absolutely zero context there. > > How many people look at multiple lists they have not subscribed to? If > they've subscribed they'll soon learn what [du] means. I don't see how > that > argument against is valid. > > > It's not making things clearer. > > I wasn't proposing it to improve clarity. I was proposing a way to empower > agents to work better. It clarity really all that important once people > have come to know that [du] = django users? > > > > I would think it would be confusing for a person the > > first time they > > > subscribed after which they'd learn what it means and go > > about their > > > business. Heck, what about [django] then? That's usable. > > > > So we do that on this list and then somebody on another > > django-related list all want the same thing and suddenly > > [django] doesn't look very unique. There's a slippery slope > > argument there. > > Your argument is specious. You are assuming that others will do that, > which > is unlikey for moderators of other Djano user would likely have the sense > to > denote theirs differently. However, I agree the the Deleware Usageaster > society might choose for their mailing list to also use [du], but then the > people that overlaps can just fallback to what you currently require > everyone on this list to do. > > > > And I wouldn't be asking for something "just for me" if it wasn't > > > standard practice on most lists. > > > > Where "most" means "some". It sounds like this is common on > > the lists you subscribe to. It happens to be uncommon > > (slightly less than 40% by a count I just did) on high-volume > > lists I'm subscribed to. > > Clearly we have different samples. Curious, how many of those lists have > you involved in keeping the list designator out of the subject? > > > I have some sympathy for people wanting > > the title in the subject line, but since it can be worked > > around, > > You are correct. I can unsubscribe. Looks like I may be force to do so > even though I'd prefer otherwise. > > > I don't view it as compulsory (and my preference is > > not to have it for reasons mentioned elsewhere, so I'm > > personally happy with the current state of affairs). > > Which makes you not a very appropriate voice for those who are unhappy > with > it then, would you not agree? :) > > > > > If Outlook cannot do what you want and the current situation is > > > > intolerable, you can switch your configuration (at the > > Google groups > > > > page for this group) to daily digest mode (one email per day). Or > > > > you can read and reply to the group through the web interface. > > > > > > Digest isn't usable either and neither is reading > > or replying > > > to the web interface. It's sad that you guys are so > > against what is > > > standard practice on almost every other list. > > > > No, it's not standard practice on "almost every other list". > > Fine. You made your point, I won't argue it. Maybe it just seems to me > that > almost every other list uses it because I've found those that don't so > unmanagable that I've had to unsubscribe from them all. > > > As I said in the first post, opinions > > differ as to the utility of this option. Mail clients have > > been able to handle header
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On Sat, Jun 09, 2007 at 09:23:15PM -0400, Mike Schinkel wrote: > > Malcolm Tredinnick wrote; > > > > Outlook has had rule-based sorting into other mailboxes for a while, > > > > so I would have thought it was possible to use that. > > > > > > It does have that. And I tried that for a while, but found it to be > > > "out-of-sight, out-of-mind." It's worse than just going to the group page > > > and searching when I need something. > > > > So rather than you changing your usage patterns slightly, you > > want us to change the list appearance for over 5000 other people. > > 1.) How many people will be negatively affected? Would there really be > anybody? > 2.) Did you not read that I've tried to changing your usage patterns > slightly, and nothing works? File a bug against Outlook with MSFT, or use a different client. That is the only reasonable solution. It certainly doesn't seem reasonable to me to enforce constraints against senders simply because your client is not as powerful as many others (which have had the necessary features for *years*). -Forest signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On 6/9/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ironic. I was asking for a method that would help me make the list more > managable, and have been told "no." Ironic because it will likely cause me > to leave before I can really learn more about Django, my reason for wanting > to get on the list to begin with. But I can't handle this volume of email > w/o having the tools I need (a subject indentifer) to manage it. The problem, as I see it, is that a prefix ends up trading potentially valuable screen real estate for an easy way to filter, when easy ways to filter are already widely available. I'm subscribed to a variety of lists, and some have a prefix and some don't. Regardless of prefix, I'm already having Gmail sort on headers when the messages come in; that way I can quickly look at any particular list regardless of what's in the subject line. And that screen space can be a big issue -- if you're not reading in a maximized email client, or if you're not on a large screen, every character of the subject line is potentially valuable information that helps you skim and decide what needs to be read immediately and what can wait a little while. Taking away some of the actual subject to put in what is -- to most peoples' email clients -- redundant information seems like a bad trade. The other problem is email clients that insist on bad reply subjects; a list prefix can end up generating a single subject line that look like Re: [django-users] ... Re: [django-users] ... Re: [django-users] ... Re: [django-users] ... etc. Even with a maximized client on a widescreen monitor, it can be almost impossible to find the actual subject of the message in all that. Anecdote: I'm subscribed to at least one list which is routinely victimized by this problem, and it's awfully annoying. I'm honestly flabbergasted that Outlook apparently can't do this, but I also haven't really used Outlook in years, and I have a strong history of advocating for fixing problems at the root rather than slapping bandages over them; cluttering subject lines to make up for an email client's shortcomings seems like it encourages email clients to get even worse, because the people who have to use them will do the extra work to make things usable. > Just FYI, the [turbogears] list happily burns 12 characters of their subject > line, and it make their list oh-so-much-more managable. OK. Like I said, I'm subscribed to lists that do it both ways, and while I subjectively prefer not having a prefix, I don't think there's an objective solution that will work for everyone. Either way people will complain, so I think list admins should pick one way and stick to it; in the case of this list, the decision's been made. -- "Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct." --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On Sat, 2007-06-09 at 19:53 -0400, Mike Schinkel wrote: > > Malcolm Tredinnick wrote: > > Outlook has had rule-based sorting into other mailboxes for a > > while, so I would have thought it was possible to use that. > > It does have that. And I tried that for a while, but found it to be > "out-of-sight, out-of-mind." It's worse than just going to the group page > and searching when I need something. So rather than you changing your usage patterns slightly, you want us to change the list appearance for over 5000 other people. > How I work with other lists (that use subject headers) is I press Ctrl-F to > bring up a search box and type "[whatever" (let's assume "[du]" for this > list). That gives me a list of only those emails and when I open them I can > go to the previous or next email by clicking a button. It is really the > only way I'd found to effectively manage participation in a list (and I've > tried lots of things.) > > > I also thought it had a way to search for text that appeared > > anywhere in the headers (so you can search for > > django-users@googlegroups.com wherever it appears). > > It does, but it takes many keystrokes and numerous clicks making it very > tiring to do over and over every day, hence rather than have to do that I > just give up on a list and unsubscribe, especially a high volume one. > > > > Obviously there's a group of people that would like to see this. Is > > > there any chance for a compromise? I understand about "burning" 14 > > > characters, but what about four, i.e. [du]? > > > > Cryptic prefixes don't seem very usable for the masses. I > > realise it sounds harsh, but degrading the situation for a > > lot of users just because of flaws in one particular email > > client isn't particularly fair. > > I don't be to be contrary or confrontational, but in what context is it > unusable? What does [du] mean when you're looking at multiple mailing lists? There's absolutely zero context there. It's not making things clearer. > I would think it would be confusing for a person the first time > they subscribed after which they'd learn what it means and go about their > business. Heck, what about [django] then? That's usable. So we do that on this list and then somebody on another django-related list all want the same thing and suddenly [django] doesn't look very unique. There's a slippery slope argument there. > And I wouldn't be asking for something "just for me" if it wasn't standard > practice on most lists. Where "most" means "some". It sounds like this is common on the lists you subscribe to. It happens to be uncommon (slightly less than 40% by a count I just did) on high-volume lists I'm subscribed to. Two samples don't make an any more reliable estimate than one, but it proves the existence of both sides of the coin. Please realise that this isn't a one-sided argument. I have some sympathy for people wanting the title in the subject line, but since it can be worked around, I don't view it as compulsory (and my preference is not to have it for reasons mentioned elsewhere, so I'm personally happy with the current state of affairs). > > If Outlook cannot do what you want and the current situation > > is intolerable, you can switch your configuration (at the > > Google groups page for this group) to daily digest mode (one > > email per day). Or you can read and reply to the group > > through the web interface. > > Digest isn't usable either and neither is reading or replying to the > web interface. It's sad that you guys are so against what is standard > practice on almost every other list. No, it's not standard practice on "almost every other list". Including the mailing list name happens on some lists and not on others. I have on idea of the real percentages over all the public mailing lists in all the world, but I'll wager it isn't "almost all". As I said in the first post, opinions differ as to the utility of this option. Mail clients have been able to handle header filtering for years and mailing list software includes identifier headers for this very reason (so that the subject line doesn't have to serve double duty). The django-* list creators made a decision and were aware that whilst it may require some small changes in habits for some people, it's hardly a unique decision. If we made the opposite decision, it would require changes for other people. Realise that some threads end up nesting _very_ deeply (a couple of dozen replies to replies sometimes), so having some space to allow the indentation for threading display removes some of the real-estate for subject viewing (your original message for example, since you replied to an existing message rather than starting a new thread, is nested half a dozen messages into the thread). > I'll probably just have to unsubscribe > and learn TurboGears instead. If you want to do that, we can only wish you the best and hope you reconsider in the future. > BTW, as I'm new to this
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
James Bennett wrote: > I'm sorry if it sounded rude; again, I wasn't trying to pick > on you, but it's also hard to articulate this without > sounding like an asshole. It's kind of a lose-lose situation. And I apologize for reacting badly. No harm, no foul. > And this is really great for someone who has a question, > because it increases the odds that all you'll have to do is > type some words into a search box -- for common or > oft-repeated questions, the answers are already right there > and you don't have to wait for someone on the mailing list to > see your question and reply. I almost always first search for technical answers, but wouldn't have thought to search for a request to include a subject prefix. I don't know why, I just wouldn't have. > But the problem is that it only works if people use the > available resources, and it's really hard to encourage that > without sounding rude -- it's never nice to tell someone to > RTFM or search the list archive or, worst of all, read a "how > to ask questions" document, but as the size of a mailing list > grows, it's extremely important to do just that. Otherwise, > the volume of repetitive messages will get unmanageable and > people will start leaving (I know a couple folks who've done > that already with this list). Ironic. I was asking for a method that would help me make the list more managable, and have been told "no." Ironic because it will likely cause me to leave before I can really learn more about Django, my reason for wanting to get on the list to begin with. But I can't handle this volume of email w/o having the tools I need (a subject indentifer) to manage it. Just FYI, the [turbogears] list happily burns 12 characters of their subject line, and it make their list oh-so-much-more managable. > So... I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, other > than to point out that things suck on both ends of the > situation and that anyone who can come up with a better way > will make millions of dollars. Or not, when some open-source developer implements it for free. '-) (BTW, I support open-source, just thought that concept was funny.) -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On 6/9/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks for the warm welcome to a new list member. I'm sorry if it sounded rude; again, I wasn't trying to pick on you, but it's also hard to articulate this without sounding like an asshole. It's kind of a lose-lose situation. This list has thousands of subscribers all over the world who are eager and willing to share their knowledge and experience with everyone else and answer questions, and that's one of the things that -- to me, at least -- makes Django as cool as it is. It also means that there's a huge history of useful information in the list archives (and, for the IRC-inclined, in Georg's public log of the #django IRC channel, and in the IRC FAQ that's been put together on the Django wiki). And this is really great for someone who has a question, because it increases the odds that all you'll have to do is type some words into a search box -- for common or oft-repeated questions, the answers are already right there and you don't have to wait for someone on the mailing list to see your question and reply. It's also really great for the list as a whole; it helps reduce repetitive messages, and if you find something that kind of answered your question but left something out, posting a followup question and getting more in-depth discussion helps everybody out by getting better discussion and making even better information available. But the problem is that it only works if people use the available resources, and it's really hard to encourage that without sounding rude -- it's never nice to tell someone to RTFM or search the list archive or, worst of all, read a "how to ask questions" document, but as the size of a mailing list grows, it's extremely important to do just that. Otherwise, the volume of repetitive messages will get unmanageable and people will start leaving (I know a couple folks who've done that already with this list). So... I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, other than to point out that things suck on both ends of the situation and that anyone who can come up with a better way will make millions of dollars. And again, I wasn't trying to pick on your personally or anyone specifically, and I apologize if it appeared that way. I'll shut up now. -- "Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct." --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Malcolm Tredinnick wrote: > Outlook has had rule-based sorting into other mailboxes for a > while, so I would have thought it was possible to use that. It does have that. And I tried that for a while, but found it to be "out-of-sight, out-of-mind." It's worse than just going to the group page and searching when I need something. How I work with other lists (that use subject headers) is I press Ctrl-F to bring up a search box and type "[whatever" (let's assume "[du]" for this list). That gives me a list of only those emails and when I open them I can go to the previous or next email by clicking a button. It is really the only way I'd found to effectively manage participation in a list (and I've tried lots of things.) > I also thought it had a way to search for text that appeared > anywhere in the headers (so you can search for > django-users@googlegroups.com wherever it appears). It does, but it takes many keystrokes and numerous clicks making it very tiring to do over and over every day, hence rather than have to do that I just give up on a list and unsubscribe, especially a high volume one. > > Obviously there's a group of people that would like to see this. Is > > there any chance for a compromise? I understand about "burning" 14 > > characters, but what about four, i.e. [du]? > > Cryptic prefixes don't seem very usable for the masses. I > realise it sounds harsh, but degrading the situation for a > lot of users just because of flaws in one particular email > client isn't particularly fair. I don't be to be contrary or confrontational, but in what context is it unusable? I would think it would be confusing for a person the first time they subscribed after which they'd learn what it means and go about their business. Heck, what about [django] then? That's usable. And I wouldn't be asking for something "just for me" if it wasn't standard practice on most lists. > If Outlook cannot do what you want and the current situation > is intolerable, you can switch your configuration (at the > Google groups page for this group) to daily digest mode (one > email per day). Or you can read and reply to the group > through the web interface. Digest isn't usable either and neither is reading or replying to the web interface. It's sad that you guys are so against what is standard practice on almost every other list. I'll probably just have to unsubscribe and learn TurboGears instead. BTW, as I'm new to this list, should I take this attitude as a foreshadowing? -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On Sat, 2007-06-09 at 18:42 -0400, Mike Schinkel wrote: > Malcolm Tredinnick wrote: > > > Is there any chance the owners of this list could modify the > > > configuration so that the emails contain [django-users] in > > the subject > > > line? It would make it so much easier to deal with the volume of > > > email if this could be done. > > > > No. Sorry. > > > > This gets asked sometimes, but it's not viewed as a > > universally good idea. Burning up 14 characters in the > > subject line for something that can already be determined in > > other ways isn't something we want to do. > > > > Every mail client these days has ways to filter messages > > based on headers, so you can either filter and sort on the > > "To:" head or the "List-Id:" header. > > Sigh. My mail client (Outlook) doesn't provide a good way to quickly filter > on To or List-Id, only "subject", "body", or "list of commonly used fields." > That's the only way I can filter with one keystroke. It takes many > keystrokes and clicks to get to the other filters. And I've tried other > mail clients, and they just don't work for my needs. It would be one thing > if it were something that I needed to do once a week, but with the traffic > on this list I need to do it hourly! Outlook has had rule-based sorting into other mailboxes for a while, so I would have thought it was possible to use that. I also thought it had a way to search for text that appeared anywhere in the headers (so you can search for django-users@googlegroups.com wherever it appears). That's the usual advice given to people when they are wanting to filter on SpamAssasin added headers, for example. > Obviously there's a group of people that would like to see this. Is there > any chance for a compromise? I understand about "burning" 14 characters, > but what about four, i.e. [du]? Cryptic prefixes don't seem very usable for the masses. I realise it sounds harsh, but degrading the situation for a lot of users just because of flaws in one particular email client isn't particularly fair. If Outlook cannot do what you want and the current situation is intolerable, you can switch your configuration (at the Google groups page for this group) to daily digest mode (one email per day). Or you can read and reply to the group through the web interface. Regards, Malcolm --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
Malcolm Tredinnick wrote: > > Is there any chance the owners of this list could modify the > > configuration so that the emails contain [django-users] in > the subject > > line? It would make it so much easier to deal with the volume of > > email if this could be done. > > No. Sorry. > > This gets asked sometimes, but it's not viewed as a > universally good idea. Burning up 14 characters in the > subject line for something that can already be determined in > other ways isn't something we want to do. > > Every mail client these days has ways to filter messages > based on headers, so you can either filter and sort on the > "To:" head or the "List-Id:" header. Sigh. My mail client (Outlook) doesn't provide a good way to quickly filter on To or List-Id, only "subject", "body", or "list of commonly used fields." That's the only way I can filter with one keystroke. It takes many keystrokes and clicks to get to the other filters. And I've tried other mail clients, and they just don't work for my needs. It would be one thing if it were something that I needed to do once a week, but with the traffic on this list I need to do it hourly! Obviously there's a group of people that would like to see this. Is there any chance for a compromise? I understand about "burning" 14 characters, but what about four, i.e. [du]? I'm asking for something that is reasonably unique in subject heading. Hell, if you would just put "~" in the subject it would be better than nothing! -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Including [django-users] in subject line?
James Bennett wrote: > This is more of a general plea on behalf of those of us who > already get more email than we can reasonably read: before > posting to this list, please remember that the archive is on > Google Groups, and that Google is *really* good at searching; > you may be able to quickly find someone else asking the same > questions you're about to ask, and more than likely you'll > find those questions already answered, which saves you and > everyone else time ;) Thanks for the warm welcome to a new list member. -Mike --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On 6/9/07, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is there any chance the owners of this list could modify the configuration > so that the emails contain [django-users] in the subject line? It would > make it so much easier to deal with the volume of email if this could be > done. I'm not trying to pick on you, but... This was proposed by someone a while back, and the decision was against it: http://groups.google.com/group/django-users/browse_frm/thread/685617964efab5f4/ Someone else didn't search the list archive before proposing it again about a year later: http://groups.google.com/group/django-users/browse_frm/thread/6207286aa908f9b5/ Someone else didn't search the list archive before proposing it again the very next month: http://groups.google.com/group/django-users/browse_frm/thread/d8cc4b2f2324d91b/ Someone else didn't search the list archive before proposing it again last month: http://groups.google.com/group/django-users/browse_frm/thread/6614ad241b3921f1/ This is more of a general plea on behalf of those of us who already get more email than we can reasonably read: before posting to this list, please remember that the archive is on Google Groups, and that Google is *really* good at searching; you may be able to quickly find someone else asking the same questions you're about to ask, and more than likely you'll find those questions already answered, which saves you and everyone else time ;) -- "Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct." --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Including [django-users] in subject line?
On Sat, 2007-06-09 at 18:12 -0400, Mike Schinkel wrote: > Is there any chance the owners of this list could modify the configuration > so that the emails contain [django-users] in the subject line? It would > make it so much easier to deal with the volume of email if this could be > done. No. Sorry. This gets asked sometimes, but it's not viewed as a universally good idea. Burning up 14 characters in the subject line for something that can already be determined in other ways isn't something we want to do. Every mail client these days has ways to filter messages based on headers, so you can either filter and sort on the "To:" head or the "List-Id:" header. Regards, Malcolm --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Including [django-users] in subject line?
Is there any chance the owners of this list could modify the configuration so that the emails contain [django-users] in the subject line? It would make it so much easier to deal with the volume of email if this could be done. Thanks in advance. -- -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/ http://www.welldesignedurls.org http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
