[DNG] Don't feed the troll

[Steve Litt]

Cmon everyone, quit dancing to the troll's tune. You know what he is,
you know he wants to make this list more like debian-user, and if you
look at the past 4 days' archives, you see he's had some success, to
the point where we're arguing about swearwords, although in normal
operation Dng has no swearwords at all.

He can't succeed without assistance from people who respond to his
little trouble-baits, so don't respond. You know exactly what he is and
what he hopes to do.

==
# John Hughes, prolific newbie "libsystemd0 isn't that bad" troll
:0:
* From.*j...@atlantech.com
* ^(To|Cc).*dng@lists.dyne.org
/dev/null
==

Put him where he belongs: In oblivion. Put our mailing list once again
on a functioning basis, instead of a debian-user clone without Don
Armstrong.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 21/12/15 14:30, Mitt Green wrote:

I've been talking a lot about courtesy in the community.
It is certainly the biggest thing Debian lacks (and
some mates from outside lack it as well, check my post here:
http://www.linux.org/threads/random-thoughts-on-linux-and-open-source-movement.7452/)

I must admit that I *hate* when people use gutter language and insults
in a public mailing list.

Being a NetBSD user for a couple of months I couldn't help but compared:
pretty much all emails there comply with "netiquette".

To John Hughes to end the flamewar completely: people here are going to
remove *any* of remaining systemd dependencies, including libsystemd0.
We don't need systemd. At all. Either it is bad for you or not, you decide.

If some of ye don't want to answer, to "feed the troll" or want to spill
a bunch of dirty words, please don't answer. Insults won't help the project
succeed.

Please respect each other and stay professional.

Mitt
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I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then 
come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the word 
'moron', gasp, I said it again. Only problem is Mitt, where I come from, 
it means a stupid or foolish person and can anybody argue that John 
Hughes isn't either of those?


People may say that I shouldn't answer his posts, but that would mean, 
if somebody reads the thread, that what he is saying is true, but it isn't.


If this wasn't aimed at me, then sorry for the noise.

Rowland

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Re: [DNG] Question on Devuan

[R. W. Rodolico]

Thank you for the information. I'll duplicate a couple of virtuals, do
the upgrade and see what happens.

Again, thank you for the information.



On 12/21/2015 08:12 AM, Linux O'Beardly wrote:
> Rod,
> 
> While many here would probably say it's not a good idea to run servers
> on Devuan until a production release, I am already running it on a
> number of servers.  I have a NAS, a CS 1.6 gaming server, and a couple
> of application servers all running Devuan without issue.  Additionally,
> I'm running all of my desktops, including my Kodi server, on Devuan.  I
> haven't had any out of the ordinary issues thus far.  I would definitely
> give it the thumbs up for servers as long as you are doing your due
> diligence in the SDLC.  I started all of my servers running Devuan in my
> development environment, and then promoted them up though Testing, QA,
> and then finally Prod. I would recommend that you definitely do a proper
> migration following SDLC and have a contingency, just as you would with
> any major migration.  Best of luck. 
> 
> Linux O'Beardly
> @LinuxOBeardly
> http://o.beard.ly
> linux.obear...@gmail.com 
> 
> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 6:29 PM, R. W. Rodolico  > wrote:
> 
> I've been lurking for a while, and I'm getting close to a decision
> point. I have been using Debian for well over a decade, but Jessie
> appears to be too unstable. The two machines I installed it on had
> issues bad enough that I reverted to Wheezy (reformat/reinstall).
> 
> Thing is, I mainly deal in servers. I really don't care that much what
> workstation OS I use; Mac, Windows, Linux; so long as I can ssh to my
> servers that is all I care about.
> 
> As was mentioned earlier, PHP can not be upgraded on Wheezy, so I have
> been looking around for a replacement. I'm currently playing with
> FreeBSD, and keeping an eye on Devuan.
> 
> Is Devuan mature enough to use on a server yet? Most of the work I see
> is on what I consider workstation stuff; netman, etc... Does that mean
> the server stuff is pretty stable already?
> 
> This is my livelyhood, so I'm definitely not wanting to jump into
> anything. Almost lost a customer over the instability of Jessie.
> 
> Bottom line is, as a server (no GUI, no netman, no games, no Libre, just
> a basic OS that allows me to install Apache/Postfix/MariaDB), do you
> feel Devuan is ready for some serious consideration yet, or should I
> wait another few months. Oh, we are heavily into virtualization using
> Xen also.
> 
> BTW, while I can not contribute the skills necessary at this point, my
> offer of a mirror still stands, whenever that becomes needed. Resources
> I have, but my programming skills are so far out of date I'd be a
> liability. But, resources I would be happy to share when/if you need
> them.
> 
> Rod
> --
> Rod Rodolico
> Daily Data, Inc.
> POB 140465
> Dallas TX 75214-0465
> 214.827.2170 
> http://www.dailydata.net
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> 
> 

-- 
Rod Rodolico
Daily Data, Inc.
POB 140465
Dallas TX 75214-0465
214.827.2170
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 21/12/15 20:01, Mitt Green wrote:

Rowland Penny  wrote:


I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then
come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the word 'moron' 
[...]

It was addressed to everyone here. You have taken a few chances here
trying to insult John Hughes, John being accused as troll, didn't insult
anyone (at least from what I've read) but used profanity as well.
I say it again, we shouldn't accuse someone being a troll,


If somebody asks the same question over and over again (in different 
ways) then that person is a troll, that is not an insult, it is a fact! 
I haven't insulted anybody, if you think I have, then you need to 
re-think your understanding of English.


i.e. moron: a stupid or foolish person
 Troll: someone who asks the same question over and over again, or 
will not accept an answer, when one is given.


If someone needs help and I can give it, then I am very willing to try 
and help. What I not willing to do, is to put up with someone who is 
just trying to stir things up and the only way to deal with such people 
is to stand up to them. Being wishy-washy with them, will do no good at all.


Rowland


insult them and tell them to go away, answering
questions instead (well, till a reasonable level)‎.


People may say that I shouldn't answer his posts, but that would mean,
if somebody reads the thread, that what he is saying is true, but it isn't.

Everyone is free to post their opinions and no one is going to stop them
from doing that.


Best regards,

Mitt


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Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll

[Mitt Green]

‎Jaromil wrote:

‎>no offence taken, but this is a bit naive. I will just speak for myself,
>but many people here may contribute sad stories. >Nevertheless, I'm not
>calling for such a thread now.

>In the logs of this mailinglist you'll find some track record of direct
>personal aggressions I've suffered just by being a representative of the
>foundation that is hatching this project.

Sir, I simply cannot believe that people choose to
spend their time wasting energy just because.
Someone surely funds this. You can call me
a conspiracy theorist but I can't think of
something else. I've literally spent a couple of hours
thinking who and why.

>If you are asking who funds trolls, then the only wild guess here is Red
>Hat but I personally don't believe in that.

I mean, someone steals money online to spend them
on putting down the project because it doesn't go
with the system. It is not a single tango operation.
An ordinary user wouldn't do it, even for free.
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Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 21 Dec 2015, Steve Litt wrote:

> ==
> # John Hughes, prolific newbie "libsystemd0 isn't that bad" troll

I'm just going to pick up from your call Steve, thanks, and ban this
subject from the mailinglist: not for being systemd supportive but for
being such a bad presence.

we shall not put down the guard BTW. The donation box is full of small
transactions made with stolen creditcards, I have to decline this stuff
every week to stay clear of Stripe and Paypal's ban.  So my guess is
that the trolls are still active and trying to hit below the belt. This
community here stays as a bright example of how to resist from such
vandals and alike.

Advice to the trolls:

This camp is what is left of a community of mistreated but perfectly
competent people that wanted to stay free from systemd and had to go out
of Debian after a 4v4 condorcet draw vote and the lack of good leaders
who would understand such a result needs no imposition, rather than
mediation.  To the contrary, they just acted like bullies.  And you are
acting as their thugs now. Please think twice then: your time is worthed
more than this. You are serving as disruption agents for an enclave of
corrupted techno-politicians. If you believe systemd is better then do
not bother to be here, just go away and use it.

Debian has failed to fulfill its mission and we are steering away from
it and these bullies. Any incursion of systemd trolls here will not be
welcome and it will be actively counteracted, while there will be a
public track record of their actions.  We are here to defend our
freedom, not to be mocked by bad advice and -who knows why- double
agenda. Trolls can just go with the mainstream and enjoy it until it
lasts: there is plenty of space out there today to be preaching the
mindless support of systemd.

This space is a minority and resists to maintain the right for people to
think different. Stop coming here to try change our mind: you have
already all the space you need to rule out your systemd imposition. My
advice is to invest your energy to make it work well and fix its many
bugs, rather than converting us to your sick dogmas.

We are here to stay and this is our territory.

So, John, now please just go away.



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Re: [DNG] netman: Please, do NOT use 17-Dec-2015 commit/merge

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi Aitor,

I am have already applied the patch but I want to edit the patch
description under netman/debian/patches. The patch's name is not a
version number but a two words appended by the date of submission. The
patch's details do not conform with Debian's policy. I am a vim user,
but the dpkg-commit --source presented me with some other text editor
which I don't know how to use.

For the above reason I am getting different textual output when I run
your commands. running git status in the sources' root directory I
get:

edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git status
On branch master
Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
Changes to be committed:
  (use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)

modified:   Makefile
modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
modified:   debian/rules

Untracked files:
  (use "git add ..." to include in what will be committed)

debian/patches/

Since I am getting different textual output I cannot follow your
procedure. I also need to edit the patch's description etc. to comform
with Debian.

Finally, running git-buildpackage I get:

edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git-buildpackage
--git-export-dir=../netman_pkg_build
gbp:error: You have uncommitted changes in your source tree:
gbp:error: On branch master
Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
Changes to be committed:
  (use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)

modified:   Makefile
modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
modified:   debian/rules

Untracked files:
  (use "git add ..." to include in what will be committed)

debian/patches/


gbp:error: Use --git-ignore-new to ignore.
edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git-buildpackage
--git-export-dir=../netman_pkg_build --git-ignore-new
gbp:error: upstream/0.1.1 is not a valid treeish

Edward

On 21/12/2015, aitor_czr  wrote:
> Hi Edward,
>
>
> On 21/12/15 14:16, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
>> Hi Rainer and many thanks for your help,
>> In line with the quote above, what else should NOT be included in my
>> upload (git push) to git.devuan.org?
>>
>> The list follows here:
>>
>> edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$  git status
>> On branch master
>> Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
>> Changes to be committed:
>>(use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)
>>
>>  modified:   Makefile
>>  modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
>>  modified:   debian/rules
>
> Once you applied the patch, you will get:
>
> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git status
> On branch master
> Changes not staged for commit:
>(use "git add ..." to update what will be committed)
>(use "git checkout -- ..." to discard changes in working
> directory)
>
>  modified:   Makefile
>  modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
>  modified:   debian/rules
>
> no changes added to commit (use "git add" and/or "git commit -a")
>
> They aren't staged. So, do this one:
>
> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git add .
> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git status
> On branch master
> Changes to be committed:
>(use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)
>
>  modified:   Makefile
>  modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
>  modified:   debian/rules
>
> Now they are staged and you can commit them:
>
> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git commit --all
> [master bece006] modified:   Makefile modified:
> debian/netman-backend.install modified:   debian/rules
>   3 files changed, 14 insertions(+), 15 deletions(-)
>   rewrite debian/rules (97%)
>
> The Makefile file belongs to the upstream branch. You must generate a
> quilt patch for this change:
>
> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ dpkg-source --commit
> dpkg-source: información: se han detectado cambios locales, los ficheros
> modificados son:
>   netman/Makefile
> Introduzca el nombre del parche:
> [ ... ]
>
>
> Give a name to the patch.
>
> Now, commit the patch included in debian/patches:
>
> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git add .
> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git commit --all
> [master ce84baf] .
>   7 files changed, 64 insertions(+)
>   create mode 100644 .pc/.quilt_patches
>   create mode 100644 .pc/.quilt_series
>   create mode 100644 .pc/.version
>   create mode 100644 .pc/applied-patches
>   create mode 100644 .pc/rainer.patch/Makefile
>   create mode 100644 debian/patches/rainer.patch
>   create mode 100644 debian/patches/series
>
> You can see the applied patchesin .pc/applied_patches.
>
> You can apply patches one by one using *quilt push* or unapply using
> *quilt pop*.
>
> As well, you can apply all the patches using *quilt push -a* or unapply
> them using *quilt pop -a*.
>
> Now you can build the packages.
>
>> Untracked files:
>>(use "git add ..." to include in what will be committed)
>>
>>  .pc/
>>  backend
>>  backend_src/bin/
>>  backend_src/obj/
>>

Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

Rowland Penny  wrote:

>I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then 
>come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the word 'moron' 
>[...]

It was addressed to everyone here. You have taken a few chances here
trying to insult John Hughes, John being accused as troll, didn't insult
anyone (at least from what I've read) but used profanity as well.
I say it again, we shouldn't accuse someone being a troll,
insult them and tell them to go away, answering
questions instead (well, till a reasonable level)‎.

>People may say that I shouldn't answer his posts, but that would mean,
>if somebody reads the thread, that what he is saying is true, but it isn't.

Everyone is free to post their opinions and no one is going to stop them
from doing that.


Best regards,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] netman: Please, do NOT use 17-Dec-2015 commit/merge

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

I don't know whether what I will suggest is politically acceptable,
but I think the trouble to patch netman, instead of manual editing
bypassing all git background workings favours a faster deployment of
netman.

Edward

On 21/12/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> Hi Aitor,
>
> I am have already applied the patch but I want to edit the patch
> description under netman/debian/patches. The patch's name is not a
> version number but a two words appended by the date of submission. The
> patch's details do not conform with Debian's policy. I am a vim user,
> but the dpkg-commit --source presented me with some other text editor
> which I don't know how to use.
>
> For the above reason I am getting different textual output when I run
> your commands. running git status in the sources' root directory I
> get:
>
> edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git status
> On branch master
> Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
> Changes to be committed:
>   (use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)
>
>   modified:   Makefile
>   modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
>   modified:   debian/rules
>
> Untracked files:
>   (use "git add ..." to include in what will be committed)
>
>   debian/patches/
>
> Since I am getting different textual output I cannot follow your
> procedure. I also need to edit the patch's description etc. to comform
> with Debian.
>
> Finally, running git-buildpackage I get:
>
> edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git-buildpackage
> --git-export-dir=../netman_pkg_build
> gbp:error: You have uncommitted changes in your source tree:
> gbp:error: On branch master
> Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
> Changes to be committed:
>   (use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)
>
>   modified:   Makefile
>   modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
>   modified:   debian/rules
>
> Untracked files:
>   (use "git add ..." to include in what will be committed)
>
>   debian/patches/
>
>
> gbp:error: Use --git-ignore-new to ignore.
> edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git-buildpackage
> --git-export-dir=../netman_pkg_build --git-ignore-new
> gbp:error: upstream/0.1.1 is not a valid treeish
>
> Edward
>
> On 21/12/2015, aitor_czr  wrote:
>> Hi Edward,
>>
>>
>> On 21/12/15 14:16, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
>>> Hi Rainer and many thanks for your help,
>>> In line with the quote above, what else should NOT be included in my
>>> upload (git push) to git.devuan.org?
>>>
>>> The list follows here:
>>>
>>> edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$  git status
>>> On branch master
>>> Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
>>> Changes to be committed:
>>>(use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)
>>>
>>> modified:   Makefile
>>> modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
>>> modified:   debian/rules
>>
>> Once you applied the patch, you will get:
>>
>> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git status
>> On branch master
>> Changes not staged for commit:
>>(use "git add ..." to update what will be committed)
>>(use "git checkout -- ..." to discard changes in working
>> directory)
>>
>>  modified:   Makefile
>>  modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
>>  modified:   debian/rules
>>
>> no changes added to commit (use "git add" and/or "git commit -a")
>>
>> They aren't staged. So, do this one:
>>
>> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git add .
>> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git status
>> On branch master
>> Changes to be committed:
>>(use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)
>>
>>  modified:   Makefile
>>  modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
>>  modified:   debian/rules
>>
>> Now they are staged and you can commit them:
>>
>> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git commit --all
>> [master bece006] modified:   Makefile modified:
>> debian/netman-backend.install modified:   debian/rules
>>   3 files changed, 14 insertions(+), 15 deletions(-)
>>   rewrite debian/rules (97%)
>>
>> The Makefile file belongs to the upstream branch. You must generate a
>> quilt patch for this change:
>>
>> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ dpkg-source --commit
>> dpkg-source: información: se han detectado cambios locales, los ficheros
>> modificados son:
>>   netman/Makefile
>> Introduzca el nombre del parche:
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>
>> Give a name to the patch.
>>
>> Now, commit the patch included in debian/patches:
>>
>> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git add .
>> aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git commit --all
>> [master ce84baf] .
>>   7 files changed, 64 insertions(+)
>>   create mode 100644 .pc/.quilt_patches
>>   create mode 100644 .pc/.quilt_series
>>   create mode 100644 .pc/.version
>>   create mode 100644 .pc/applied-patches
>>   create mode 100644 .pc/rainer.patch/Makefile
>>   create mode 100644 debian/patches/rainer.patch
>>   create mode 100644 debian/patches/series
>>
>> You 

Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Jaromil]

dear Mitt,

On Mon, 21 Dec 2015, Mitt Green wrote:

> Rowland Penny  wrote:
> 
> >I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then
> >come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the
> >word 'moron' [...]
> 
> It was addressed to everyone here. You have taken a few chances here
> trying to insult John Hughes, John being accused as troll, didn't
> insult anyone (at least from what I've read) but used profanity as
> well.  I say it again, we shouldn't accuse someone being a troll,
> insult them and tell them to go away, answering questions instead
> (well, till a reasonable level)

I can well relate to your description of netiquette and reference to
the good context that BSD projects often creates for professionals.

Yet please consider you have not been through all what has been going on
here from the beginning - and also consider our time and patience is
very limited and we need to optimize everyone's attention and effort to
get Devuan done. As I wrote already, we are a minority fighting an
asymmetric war by now to keep existing and computing the way we want.

My conclusion after one year of keeping this community together is that
we cannot provide an open space to debate the choice to be in or out of
systemd. That is already provided in many avenues (which are also
heavily curbing any criticism, no matter how educated and documented).

Our project is developing an alternative, not providing space for debate

Please let us know if you ever find out spaces where unbiased debate on
systemd can take place, some people here and among them myself may be
able to contribute then.

ciao




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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

>‎Our project is developing an alternative, not providing space for debate

That's why I'd like to end this discussion.

>Please let us know if you ever find out spaces where unbiased debate on
>systemd can take place, some people here and among them myself may be
>able to contribute then.

Sure. But this will be hard to find (:

Rowland,

I wasn't referring to this particular word. I don't want to blame you.
You've got my message.

I also don't want to establish rules here, and I can't.

Cheers,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Mitt Green  writes:
> You miss my point. I am trying to deliver
> the message that it is in my opinion 
> unacceptable for people to use oath and insults in
> public. Doesn't matter in a pub, in a shop,
> in a mailing list, in a class, in a street, whatever.
> It can be acceptable in gangsta rap, in rednecks
> societies, in Louis CK stand-up.

I'm afraid, I don't. I also mostly happen to agree with you save for a
slightly different cultural background, (I hate using myself as an
example but there's no other choice here), namely, I was born in a
small, rural German town. Both of my parents moved there because they
were teachers at the local grammar school and both were themselves
children of people who ended up displaced because of WWII. This meant
that I grew up in an environment where high/ standard German was the
spoken language. Unfortunately, for most other children (and really most
grown-up people from this area, too) this was the first "foreign
language" they were forced to learn at school and sometimes forced to
use when communicating with certain swells. Consequently, ever since I
had to go to school myself, I was slated and frequently also physcially
attacked on the presumption that I was intentionally trying to show my
contempt for normal people because of my use of this unsavory language
only the bigheaded ever use instead of the local dialect all good people
appreciate so very much. And you certainly wouldn't approve of their
choice of words.

My conclusion from this is that what people do or don't consider
"acceptable use of language" is pretty arbitrary, mostly dependent on
their personal history, and a very bad indicator of attitude.
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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Daniel Reurich]

On 22/12/15 08:39, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 07:54:21AM +1300, Daniel Reurich wrote:
>> On 22/12/15 03:59, Adam Borowski wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:53:18PM +, Mitt Green wrote:
 deb http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main 
 deb-src http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main

 Yet there isone package that can't be upgraded currently, upower,
 it requires libplist2 but there is libplist3 in Unstable.
>>>
>>> Fixed.
>>>
>> Does libplist3 introduce api changes that we should be concerned about?
>>  If not I'll bump the version in our upower package for ceres
> 
> I don't know, sorry.  All I know is that my upower package makes suspend
> work for me on current Debian unstable, unlike gutted newer upowers.
> 
Ok, it looks like ABI changes according to git, and it looks also like
it's transitioned to gccv5.

As always, if you want to help maintain this and other packages in
Devuan I'd be happy to get you started using our stack.

Regards,
Daniel.

-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Adam Borowski]

On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 07:54:21AM +1300, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> On 22/12/15 03:59, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:53:18PM +, Mitt Green wrote:
> >> deb http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main 
> >> deb-src http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main
> >>
> >> Yet there isone package that can't be upgraded currently, upower,
> >> it requires libplist2 but there is libplist3 in Unstable.
> > 
> > Fixed.
> > 
> Does libplist3 introduce api changes that we should be concerned about?
>  If not I'll bump the version in our upower package for ceres

I don't know, sorry.  All I know is that my upower package makes suspend
work for me on current Debian unstable, unlike gutted newer upowers.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 21 Dec 2015, Mitt Green wrote:

> >The donation box is full of small
> >transactions made with stolen credit cards, I have to decline this stuff
> >every week to stay clear of Stripe and Paypal's ban. So my guess is
> >that the trolls are still active and trying to hit below the belt. 
> 
> ‎First, how can we say that these cards were stolen (?)

it is written in the declaration of Stripe and Paypal's mails signaling
those transactions. Some other transactions were disputed right after
being made, without mention of stolen cards. Such foul transactions by
now amount to 30-40 on which I need to act upon, one by one, declining
them through a few clicks.

> and second, I can't believe that someone is trying to put down this
> project and these people.

no offence taken, but this is a bit naive. I will just speak for myself,
but many people here may contribute sad stories. Nevertheless, I'm not
calling for such a thread now.

In the logs of this mailinglist you'll find some track record of direct
personal aggressions I've suffered just by being a representative of the
foundation that is hatching this project.  I'm in F/OSS since pretty
long now and people have done wikipedia pages talking about me and some
of our projects, translated in various languages. As of today almost all
of them have disappeared, as they did all mentions of me or dyne.org
contributions to free software, in the arc of only one year. My
conclusion is that we were targeted by a few deletionists with a clear
agenda. Some of them first started deleting Devuan related pages, then
crawled on...

> Who funds this?

Devuan is funded only by donations right now. We are documenting the
finances, but I'm a bit late on the task. I'll likely updated the
balance this week, we are at around 11K eur donated in 1 year.

If you are asking who funds trolls, then the only wild guess here is Red
Hat but I personally don't believe in that.

> My universe is innocent. Really.

The definition of a universe transcends that of an individual...

But I do believe you're not asking in bad faith :^)

ciao



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Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll

[Nate Bargmann]

This developer has some thoughts on the matter, Mitt:

https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/13/openwashing-and-other-deceptions-in-linux/

https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/julian-assange-debian-is-owned-by-the-nsa/

https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/tso-and-linus-and-the-impotent-rage-against-systemd/

https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/upcoming-magazine-article/

https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/ubuntu-spyware/

https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/

That is simply a small sampling of his blog, most of which centers
around the development of SpaceFM.

While some may consider his thoughts worthy of wearing a tin foil hat, I
would not discount all of it so easily.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Daniel Reurich]

On 22/12/15 03:59, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:53:18PM +, Mitt Green wrote:
>> deb http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main 
>> deb-src http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main
>>
>> Yet there isone package that can't be upgraded currently, upower,
>> it requires libplist2 but there is libplist3 in Unstable.
> 
> Fixed.
> 
Does libplist3 introduce api changes that we should be concerned about?
 If not I'll bump the version in our upower package for ceres


-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Brian Nash]

Regardless of whether John is a troll, this list seems to be tearing
itself apart at the slightest provocation.

Perhaps people here are more stressed than they let on.
Perhaps _certain people_ should cut them some slack.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 08:16:09PM +, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 21/12/15 20:01, Mitt Green wrote:

Rowland Penny  wrote:


I am beginning to think this may be aimed squarely at me, if so, then
come out and say so. I think Mitt may have taken exception to the word 'moron' 
[...]

It was addressed to everyone here. You have taken a few chances here
trying to insult John Hughes, John being accused as troll, didn't insult
anyone (at least from what I've read) but used profanity as well.
I say it again, we shouldn't accuse someone being a troll,


If somebody asks the same question over and over again (in different 
ways) then that person is a troll, that is not an insult, it is a 
fact! I haven't insulted anybody, if you think I have, then you need 
to re-think your understanding of English.


i.e. moron: a stupid or foolish person
Troll: someone who asks the same question over and over again, or 
will not accept an answer, when one is given.


If someone needs help and I can give it, then I am very willing to try 
and help. What I not willing to do, is to put up with someone who is 
just trying to stir things up and the only way to deal with such 
people is to stand up to them. Being wishy-washy with them, will do no 
good at all.


Rowland


insult them and tell them to go away, answering
questions instead (well, till a reasonable level)???.


People may say that I shouldn't answer his posts, but that would mean,
if somebody reads the thread, that what he is saying is true, but it isn't.

Everyone is free to post their opinions and no one is going to stop them
from doing that.


Best regards,

Mitt


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Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 13:48:55 -0500, Steve wrote in message 
<20151221134855.79500...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:

> Cmon everyone, quit dancing to the troll's tune. You know what he is,
> you know he wants to make this list more like debian-user, and if you
> look at the past 4 days' archives, you see he's had some success, to
> the point where we're arguing about swearwords, although in normal
> operation Dng has no swearwords at all.
> 
> He can't succeed without assistance from people who respond to his
> little trouble-baits, so don't respond. You know exactly what he is
> and what he hopes to do.
> 
> ==
> # John Hughes, prolific newbie "libsystemd0 isn't that bad" troll
> :0:
> * From.*j...@atlantech.com

..chk whois atlantech.com and you'll know why etc ;o) it should be: 
* From.*@atlantech.com 

> * ^(To|Cc).*dng@lists.dyne.org
> /dev/null
> ==
> 
> Put him where he belongs: In oblivion. Put our mailing list once again
> on a functioning basis, instead of a debian-user clone without Don
> Armstrong.

..can his subscriptions be auto-rejected?

> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
>  of the Successful Technologist
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Joel Roth]

Brian Nash wrote:
> Regardless of whether John is a troll, this list seems to be tearing
> itself apart at the slightest provocation.
 
> Perhaps people here are more stressed than they let on.
> Perhaps _certain people_ should cut them some slack.

I read that you are appealing for moderation, while using
provocative language yourself. Is that your intention? 


-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 15, Issue 85

[David Harrison]

On 21/12/2015 16:30, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:
> "I despise it when people don't behave according to established norms of
> my cultural background" isn't really any better ...


Isn't it? I'll rise to that lure, even though it adds to a rather dull 
apres-troll debate.


I assert that it's fine to decry piss-poor behaviour.

A person can be powerless over their origins, original social 
class/caste, sexual orientation, cognitive development, and all the 
rest. Taking issue with these factors is pointless and just plain spiteful.


I assert that how someone treats others is another matter entirely. It 
involves some personal choice, and is therefore open to comment.


How certain are you that Mitt's complaint was based on some cultural 
assumption, the very existence of which you seem to disapprove? Or that 
an opinion derived from a culture is automatically wrong?


Or could the complainer, perhaps, have seen a behaviour, considered it 
from several angles, and decided it's a bad thing? Then exercised their 
right to say so?


Devuan sprang from a fierce disagreement over how people should treat 
others, and against a decaying establishment. A consensus was reached 
that a certain group's behaviour was wrong, and that something had to be 
done to counter it. The Devuan community, therefore, embodies cultural 
debate, simply because it tries to do things differently to Debian.


If we can't wrangle over what is acceptable behaviour within our own 
community then let's throw in the towel, stand back when others do 
whatever they want, whether or not it's against our interests, and 
retreat to our holes in the ground. Poettering and company win. Fin.


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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Teodoro Santoni]

Good evening,

2015-12-21 18:49 GMT+01:00, Mitt Green :
> Linus, Lennart, Theo de Raadt, they are all
> criticised for using inappropriate language.
> Debian is also blamed for lacking a little discipline
> in the public mailing lists.

Probably is the common, clickbait-polluted, sense.
*I* blame the gnomedesktop.org team and the Debian mailing lists for
their harsh obtuseness.
I can apply the Hanlon's razor for lists.debian, whereas I find it hard to
for "free"/gnomedesktop.
In the end I think that the most vocal exponents of GNU/Fedora, like
our aforementioned Poettering, are paid for trolling. They
are also great at it, sadly, and is difficult to read him behave as
Torvalds or de Raadt.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

I've been talking a lot about courtesy in the community.
It is certainly the biggest thing Debian lacks (and
some mates from outside lack it as well, check my post here:
http://www.linux.org/threads/random-thoughts-on-linux-and-open-source-movement.7452/)

I must admit that I *hate* when people use gutter language and insults
in a public mailing list.

Being a NetBSD user for a couple of months I couldn't help but compared:
pretty much all emails there comply with "netiquette".

To John Hughes to end the flamewar completely: people here are going to
remove *any* of remaining systemd dependencies, including libsystemd0.
We don't need systemd. At all. Either it is bad for you or not, you decide.

If some of ye don't want to answer, to "feed the troll" or want to spill
a bunch of dirty words, please don't answer. Insults won't help the project
succeed.

Please respect each other and stay professional.

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Apply Rainer's patch to netman.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi All,

These last few days I couldn't work on netman as I have a painful
bacterial upper jaw infection. I couldn't concentrate on the project
with all that pain. This is my third day taking antibiotics.

Nevertheless, I tried Rainer's patch. Git is saying it is incompatible
with my sources. I will take the surest path: that of reading the
.diff file and applying the edits by hand where they are applicable.

Edward

On 20/12/2015, aitor_czr  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 12/20/2015 07:02 PM, aitor_czr wrote:
>> There were spaces instead of tab keys in the Makefile. Fixed it:
>
> Now we can also replace:
>
>dh $@ --with quilt,python2
>
> by:
>
>dh $@
>
> Aitor.
>
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 20/12/15 13:20, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 12:21:11PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:

On 20/12/15 11:18, Adam Borowski wrote:

Package: libpam-systemd
[...]
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.17), libpam0g (>= 0.99.7.1), libselinux1 (>= 1.32),
  systemd (= 228-2), libpam-runtime (>= 1.0.1-6), dbus,
  systemd-shim (>= 8-2) | systemd-sysv


Yes, like I said, libpam-systemd depends on systemd-shim *or* systemd-sysv.

You don't need or want systemd installed if you have systemd-shim installed.

Please reread what I pasted again.  There's a hard dependency on systemd.
And libpam-systemd is the only real user of systemd-shim.



You are in fact right, libpam-systemd needs systemd installed, and 
either systemd as pid 1, or systemd-shim installed (and hence init as 
pid 1).


That's not what I was hoping for.  I'll have to do more investigation.

Sorry for the confusion.

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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and, configuring minimalism

[dev1fanboy]

Thanks, that's all fixed now and the layout looks correct :)

On Monday, December 21, 2015 12:45 PM, Florian Zieboll  wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:51:07 -
> "dev1fanboy"  wrote:
> 
>> Aha, yeah I can see there's something going on with it now that I've
>> checked.
>>
>> Could you send the file in an attachment again?
> 
> Here's the file. The change suggested in my other mail is already
> implemented (and two more details changed in the first paragraph).
> 
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 21/12/15 12:41, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 21/12/15 11:06, John Hughes wrote:

On 21/12/15 11:52, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 21/12/15 10:03, John Hughes wrote:



What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd to 
be able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to use 
sysvinit, openrc or upstart or whatever.  At the moment things are 
all fucked up because there is no long term alternative to the seat 
management part of systemd and few people seem prepared to work on it.




This is what people have been trying to get through to you, if you 
run debain jessie, you 'HAVE' to use systemd whether you want to or 
not.


No, you don't.  You do have to have systemd installed, [ see below 
for why ], but systemd does not have to be pid 1.


OK, systemd doesn't have to be pid1, but by your admission, you still 
have to have it installed *even* if you don't want to, this is *not* 
choice!


Having a few files and directories on your disk is a major problem? 
systemd is not running if you're using systemd-shim, it just needs the 
systemd directories (that's why systemd-shim depends on systemd -- I 
suppose it would be possible to break the systemd package up into 
"systemd-config" and "systemd-binaries", but what would be the point?)




I can understand why parts of the desktop rely on something like 
udev, but this has now been subsumed by systemd.


No it hasn't.  The source code for udev is in the same tree as 
systemd, and they share some library functions, but udev still works 
without systemd.


Can you explain how? if you try to download the source package for 
udev, you will get the systemd source package.


So?   Who the hell cares?  Just build udev, there is source for some 
other things in the tree, ignore 'em.  When udev is running it does not 
need systemd.






If systemd had just been a replacement for sysv or upstart etc, then 
there would not have been all the row about it, those that wanted to 
use it could have and those that didn't, didn't have to, but no, 
because of the way it is taking over the established way of doing 
things, you are denied the free choice of what init system to use!


Assumes facts not in evidence.


Only because you seem to be ignoring the evidence, try setting up a 
debian jessie system with a gui. Now open a terminal as root and run 
'apt-get purge systemd* -y'


Why would you do that?  You've just broken your system.

Surely you care about what software is running, not what the package 
names or filenames are.


If you want to run an init system other than systemd the way to do it is:

Install your new init system, install systemd-shim, remove 
systemd-sysv.  Your fathers brother is called Robert.


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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Mitt Green]

dev1fanboy  wrote:

>True the apt pinning is broke there, and libsystemd0 may not be avoidable with 
>libpulse0 now depending on it. 

libpulse0 is available in those repos as well.
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Re: [DNG] Question on Devuan

[Linux O'Beardly]

Rod,

While many here would probably say it's not a good idea to run servers on
Devuan until a production release, I am already running it on a number of
servers.  I have a NAS, a CS 1.6 gaming server, and a couple of application
servers all running Devuan without issue.  Additionally, I'm running all of
my desktops, including my Kodi server, on Devuan.  I haven't had any out of
the ordinary issues thus far.  I would definitely give it the thumbs up for
servers as long as you are doing your due diligence in the SDLC.  I started
all of my servers running Devuan in my development environment, and then
promoted them up though Testing, QA, and then finally Prod. I would
recommend that you definitely do a proper migration following SDLC and have
a contingency, just as you would with any major migration.  Best of luck.

Linux O'Beardly
@LinuxOBeardly
http://o.beard.ly
linux.obear...@gmail.com

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 6:29 PM, R. W. Rodolico  wrote:

> I've been lurking for a while, and I'm getting close to a decision
> point. I have been using Debian for well over a decade, but Jessie
> appears to be too unstable. The two machines I installed it on had
> issues bad enough that I reverted to Wheezy (reformat/reinstall).
>
> Thing is, I mainly deal in servers. I really don't care that much what
> workstation OS I use; Mac, Windows, Linux; so long as I can ssh to my
> servers that is all I care about.
>
> As was mentioned earlier, PHP can not be upgraded on Wheezy, so I have
> been looking around for a replacement. I'm currently playing with
> FreeBSD, and keeping an eye on Devuan.
>
> Is Devuan mature enough to use on a server yet? Most of the work I see
> is on what I consider workstation stuff; netman, etc... Does that mean
> the server stuff is pretty stable already?
>
> This is my livelyhood, so I'm definitely not wanting to jump into
> anything. Almost lost a customer over the instability of Jessie.
>
> Bottom line is, as a server (no GUI, no netman, no games, no Libre, just
> a basic OS that allows me to install Apache/Postfix/MariaDB), do you
> feel Devuan is ready for some serious consideration yet, or should I
> wait another few months. Oh, we are heavily into virtualization using
> Xen also.
>
> BTW, while I can not contribute the skills necessary at this point, my
> offer of a mirror still stands, whenever that becomes needed. Resources
> I have, but my programming skills are so far out of date I'd be a
> liability. But, resources I would be happy to share when/if you need them.
>
> Rod
> --
> Rod Rodolico
> Daily Data, Inc.
> POB 140465
> Dallas TX 75214-0465
> 214.827.2170
> http://www.dailydata.net
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 21/12/15 13:40, John Hughes wrote:

On 21/12/15 12:41, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 21/12/15 11:06, John Hughes wrote:

On 21/12/15 11:52, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 21/12/15 10:03, John Hughes wrote:



What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd 
to be able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to 
use sysvinit, openrc or upstart or whatever.  At the moment things 
are all fucked up because there is no long term alternative to the 
seat management part of systemd and few people seem prepared to 
work on it.




This is what people have been trying to get through to you, if you 
run debain jessie, you 'HAVE' to use systemd whether you want to or 
not.


No, you don't.  You do have to have systemd installed, [ see below 
for why ], but systemd does not have to be pid 1.


OK, systemd doesn't have to be pid1, but by your admission, you still 
have to have it installed *even* if you don't want to, this is *not* 
choice!


Having a few files and directories on your disk is a major problem? 
systemd is not running if you're using systemd-shim, it just needs the 
systemd directories (that's why systemd-shim depends on systemd -- I 
suppose it would be possible to break the systemd package up into 
"systemd-config" and "systemd-binaries", but what would be the point?)




I can understand why parts of the desktop rely on something like 
udev, but this has now been subsumed by systemd.


No it hasn't.  The source code for udev is in the same tree as 
systemd, and they share some library functions, but udev still works 
without systemd.


Can you explain how? if you try to download the source package for 
udev, you will get the systemd source package.


So?   Who the hell cares?  Just build udev, there is source for some 
other things in the tree, ignore 'em.  When udev is running it does 
not need systemd.






If systemd had just been a replacement for sysv or upstart etc, 
then there would not have been all the row about it, those that 
wanted to use it could have and those that didn't, didn't have to, 
but no, because of the way it is taking over the established way of 
doing things, you are denied the free choice of what init system to 
use!


Assumes facts not in evidence.


Only because you seem to be ignoring the evidence, try setting up a 
debian jessie system with a gui. Now open a terminal as root and run 
'apt-get purge systemd* -y'


Why would you do that?  You've just broken your system.


Exactly you moron.



Surely you care about what software is running, not what the package 
names or filenames are.


If you want to run an init system other than systemd the way to do it is:

Install your new init system, install systemd-shim, remove 
systemd-sysv.  Your fathers brother is called Robert.




Wrong on two counts there, run devuan, you don't need systemd at all and 
my fathers brother was called Walter, Robert was my father :-)


I think you will find that most of the people here, do not want any part 
of systemd on their computers, me included, hence the use of Devuan 
instead of debian.


Now I have said this before but you seem to be hard of hearing, so *GO 
AWAY, YOU ARE PREACHING TO THE CONVERTED HERE!*


Rowland



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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 03:07:14PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:

[cut]

> 
> I had hopes for Devuan, but the lack of rational thinking convinces
> me that it's going nowhere.
> 
> Bye.
> 

OK, bye now. And please everybody, just stop to answer to those
emails.

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Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll

[Teodoro Santoni]

2015-12-21 21:57 GMT+01:00, Mitt Green :
> Sir, I simply cannot believe that people choose to
> spend their time wasting energy just because.
> Someone surely funds this. You can call me
> a conspiracy theorist but I can't think of
> something else. I've literally spent a couple of hours
> thinking who and why.

https://twitter.com/shitdevuansays

It ceased operations an year ago.
Someone wasted his/her time or bought space for
a twitter bot for the purpose of posting things he/she
deems shit from this ML. And retweeting things from
"people who don't get what a beta state software is"
and other people who elevated this OS as their source of laughs.
Why it sounds so weird to you, then, that someone got
somewhere data from compromised bank accounts and used
them to try and shut off the money sources of this project?

I can even suspect this is another step, taken by people thinking
this project is a "FRAUD" [sic] and failed to get anything by
legal means and lamentation through Paypal and Stripe.
It's a suspect, nothing more.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 20/12/15 19:01, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

John Hughes  writes:

On 19/12/15 11:58, dev1fanboy wrote:

Gnome

If you need more: apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 | wc -l

We're going round in circles.  *I* posted that command:

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151218.143549.77d859b4.en.html

But you still haven't said *why* you want to remove libsystemd0.

This is entirely the wrong question. There's presently no 'libsystemd0'
on my system. Why should it be added?


Joke answer, to let you run systemd?

What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd to be 
able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to use sysvinit, 
openrc or upstart or whatever.  At the moment things are all fucked up 
because there is no long term alternative to the seat management part of 
systemd and few people seem prepared to work on it.

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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 21/12/15 10:03, John Hughes wrote:

On 20/12/15 19:01, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

John Hughes  writes:

On 19/12/15 11:58, dev1fanboy wrote:

Gnome

If you need more: apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 | wc -l

We're going round in circles.  *I* posted that command:

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151218.143549.77d859b4.en.html

But you still haven't said *why* you want to remove libsystemd0.

This is entirely the wrong question. There's presently no 'libsystemd0'
on my system. Why should it be added?


Joke answer, to let you run systemd?

What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd to be 
able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to use 
sysvinit, openrc or upstart or whatever.  At the moment things are all 
fucked up because there is no long term alternative to the seat 
management part of systemd and few people seem prepared to work on it.

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This is what people have been trying to get through to you, if you run 
debain jessie, you 'HAVE' to use systemd whether you want to or not. 
Systemd seems to insist on controlling everything and will not tolerate 
any other init system, if you don't want to use systemd but do want to 
to use gnome3, well tough, you cannot. Can you answer why a desktop 
relies on an init system, because I cannot. I can understand why parts 
of the desktop rely on something like udev, but this has now been 
subsumed by systemd. If systemd had just been a replacement for sysv or 
upstart etc, then there would not have been all the row about it, those 
that wanted to use it could have and those that didn't, didn't have to, 
but no, because of the way it is taking over the established way of 
doing things, you are denied the free choice of what init system to use! 
It is LPs way or no way, and the number of things he has broken and 
refused to fix, well it is just arrogance on his part.


 Rowland
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Re: [DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 15, Issue 77

[Edward Bartolo]

> On 20/12/2015, aitor_czr  wrote:
> Hi Rainer,
>
> On 12/20/2015 07:01 PM, Rainer Weikusat 
> wrote:
>
>> Using copy'n'paste to save the content of the not-reformatted mail to a
>> text file is sufficient to create a 'working' patch-file for me.
> Here is is the patch:
>
> http://gnuinos.org/netman/

Hi Aitor,

You rock! Git also confirmed the patch is compatible with my restored
sources. Patch applied.

Thanks.

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[John Hughes]

On 21/12/15 11:52, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 21/12/15 10:03, John Hughes wrote:



What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd to 
be able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to use 
sysvinit, openrc or upstart or whatever.  At the moment things are 
all fucked up because there is no long term alternative to the seat 
management part of systemd and few people seem prepared to work on it.

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This is what people have been trying to get through to you, if you run 
debain jessie, you 'HAVE' to use systemd whether you want to or not.


No, you don't.  You do have to have systemd installed, and I'm not sure 
why, but systemd does not have to be pid 1.



Can you answer why a desktop relies on an init system, because I cannot.


Because systemd (or systemd-shim) does session management, and Gnome 
didn't want to keep doing it (badly) themselves.


I can understand why parts of the desktop rely on something like udev, 
but this has now been subsumed by systemd.


No it hasn't.  The source code for udev is in the same tree as systemd, 
and they share some library functions, but udev still works without systemd.


If systemd had just been a replacement for sysv or upstart etc, then 
there would not have been all the row about it, those that wanted to 
use it could have and those that didn't, didn't have to, but no, 
because of the way it is taking over the established way of doing 
things, you are denied the free choice of what init system to use!


Assumes facts not in evidence.

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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Dragan FOSS]

On 12/21/2015 11:03 AM, John Hughes wrote:

At the moment things are all fucked up because there is no long term
alternative to the seat management part of systemd and few people seem
prepared to work on it.


Utterly false claim...systemd is responsible for broken things.
---
1) TRIOS

[dragan@trios][~/Desktop]$ lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID: Trios
Description:Trios GNU/Linux testing
Release:testing
Codename:   mia
[dragan@trios][~/Desktop]$ ck-list-sessions
Session2:
unix-user = '1000'
realname = 'Dragan'
seat = 'Seat1'
session-type = ''
active = TRUE
x11-display = ':0'
x11-display-device = '/dev/tty7'
display-device = ''
remote-host-name = ''
is-local = TRUE
on-since = ':33:30.645278Z'
login-session-id = '1'
[dragan@trios][~/Desktop]$

2) OpenIndiana

dragan@oi:~$ pkg info kernel
  Name: system/kernel
   Summary: Core Solaris Kernel
   Description: core kernel software for a specific instruction-set 
architecture

  Category: System/Core
 State: Installed
 Publisher: openindiana.org
   Version: 0.5.11
Branch: 2015.0.2.15268
Packaging Date: October  5, 2015 04:27:57 PM
  Size: 41.80 MB
  FMRI: 
pkg://openindiana.org/system/kernel@0.5.11-2015.0.2.15268:20151005T162757Z

dragan@oi:~$ ck-list-sessions
Session1:
unix-user = '101'
realname = 'Dragan'
seat = 'StaticSeat1'
session-type = ''
display-type = 'Local'
open = 'TRUE'
active = 'TRUE'
x11-display = ':0'
x11-display-device = '/dev/vt/2'
display-device = '   ?   '
remote-host-name = ''
is-local = 'TRUE'
on-since = 'x:36.874924Z'
login-session-id = ''
idle-since-hint = ''
--

So .. fuck the systemd :)
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/12/2015 11:03, John Hughes a écrit :
What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd to be 
able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to use 
sysvinit, openrc or upstart or whatever.


Please stop this. This question has been answered a million times 
already. There is Devuan with Systemd: it's called Debian. Full stop.


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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Rowland Penny]

On 21/12/15 11:06, John Hughes wrote:

On 21/12/15 11:52, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 21/12/15 10:03, John Hughes wrote:



What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd to 
be able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to use 
sysvinit, openrc or upstart or whatever.  At the moment things are 
all fucked up because there is no long term alternative to the seat 
management part of systemd and few people seem prepared to work on it.

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This is what people have been trying to get through to you, if you 
run debain jessie, you 'HAVE' to use systemd whether you want to or not.


No, you don't.  You do have to have systemd installed, and I'm not 
sure why, but systemd does not have to be pid 1.


OK, systemd doesn't have to be pid1, but by your admission, you still 
have to have it installed *even* if you don't want to, this is *not* choice!





Can you answer why a desktop relies on an init system, because I cannot.


Because systemd (or systemd-shim) does session management, and Gnome 
didn't want to keep doing it (badly) themselves.


There are other ways of doing session management (actually I couldn't 
give a flying fig if Gnome3 relies on systemd, I hate that mess as well)




I can understand why parts of the desktop rely on something like 
udev, but this has now been subsumed by systemd.


No it hasn't.  The source code for udev is in the same tree as 
systemd, and they share some library functions, but udev still works 
without systemd.


Can you explain how? if you try to download the source package for udev, 
you will get the systemd source package.




If systemd had just been a replacement for sysv or upstart etc, then 
there would not have been all the row about it, those that wanted to 
use it could have and those that didn't, didn't have to, but no, 
because of the way it is taking over the established way of doing 
things, you are denied the free choice of what init system to use!


Assumes facts not in evidence.


Only because you seem to be ignoring the evidence, try setting up a 
debian jessie system with a gui. Now open a terminal as root and run 
'apt-get purge systemd* -y'


Just how much of your install will you have left?

Rowland




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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[dev1fanboy]

True the apt pinning is broke there, and libsystemd0 may not be avoidable with 
libpulse0 now depending on it. 

On my list of things to do, so that users can seemlessly upgrade to Ceres or 
Testing without it breaking. 

I'll mention the angband repos and the upower issue too, thanks :)

On Monday, December 21, 2015 12:53 PM, Mitt Green  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> You have mentioned pinning libsystemd0 for Ceres in Wiki
> 
> (https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Ceres-without-Systemd)
> but as I have written it does no longer work.
> 
> There is no way to prevent this package from installing,
> one has to use these repositories:
> 
> deb http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main
> deb-src http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main
> 
> And then add the apt key (under root):
> 
> gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-key BED007F9
> gpg --armor --export BED007f9 | apt-key add -
> 
> I hope when Devuan will be released we won't need them, but till then
> it is the way.
> 
> Yet there isone package that can't be upgraded currently, upower,
> it requires libplist2 but there is libplist3 in Unstable.
> For the rest, everything is smooth and stable (well,
> if ye don't count occasional dependency dissatisfaction from apt,
> but these things are native to Debian and get their fixes in a couple
> of days).
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and, configuring minimalism

[Florian Zieboll]

On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 11:33:51 -
"dev1fanboy"  wrote:

> I enabled the issue tracker on the wiki so if anyone has problems (or 
> suggestions) with the docs they can add it there if they like.
> 
> https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/home


Hallo Fanboy,

somehow the character encoding of the german translation got messed up,
the original text file is in in utf-8, as is the character set defined
for your wiki page.

Also, the link to the translation at
https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/home
should be named "Deutsch" instead of "Deutsche".

Attached is a screenshot of the text as a hopefully troll-proof
encoding check :)

Ahoi,

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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and, configuring minimalism

[dev1fanboy]

Aha, yeah I can see there's something going on with it now that I've checked.

Could you send the file in an attachment again? 

On Monday, December 21, 2015 11:42 AM, Florian Zieboll  wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 11:33:51 -
> "dev1fanboy"  wrote:
> 
>> I enabled the issue tracker on the wiki so if anyone has problems (or
>> suggestions) with the docs they can add it there if they like.
>>
>> https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/home
> 
> 
> Hallo Fanboy,
> 
> somehow the character encoding of the german translation got messed up,
> the original text file is in in utf-8, as is the character set defined
> for your wiki page.
> 
> Also, the link to the translation at
> https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/home
> should be named "Deutsch" instead of "Deutsche".
> 
> Attached is a screenshot of the text as a hopefully troll-proof
> encoding check :)
> 
> Ahoi,
> 
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Re: [DNG] netman: Please, do NOT use 17-Dec-2015 commit/merge

[Edward Bartolo]

On 18/12/2015, Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
> [...]
>>  debian/files
>>  debian/netman-backend.debhelper.log
>>  debian/netman-backend.substvars
>>  debian/netman-backend/
>>  debian/netman-gui.debhelper.log
>>  debian/netman-gui.substvars
>>  debian/netman-gui/

>
> The files on the second [quoted above] list shouldn't be committed as they're 
> generated
> by the build process. As to the first two, if git thinks they were
> changed and you don't, chances are that you're wrong although to
> opposite is also possible. Just check for changes via 'git diff' and
> commit them.

Hi Rainer and many thanks for your help,
In line with the quote above, what else should NOT be included in my
upload (git push) to git.devuan.org?

The list follows here:

edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$ git status
On branch master
Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
Changes to be committed:
  (use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)

modified:   Makefile
modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
modified:   debian/rules

Untracked files:
  (use "git add ..." to include in what will be committed)

.pc/
backend
backend_src/bin/
backend_src/obj/
debian/patches/
debian/tmp/

I think, I should instruct git to ignore all of them (.gitignore).

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide - german translation

[Florian Zieboll]

On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:42:02 +0100
Florian Zieboll  wrote:

> german translation

Hallo Fanboy,

something else: When you edit the encoding, in the first paragraph you
should perhaps replace the string 

"dass der 'stable'-Ableger mit – wenn überhaupt – nur wenigen Problemen
läuft"

with 

"dass der 'stable'-Ableger nahezu problemlos läuft"

Although the first version is translated correctly, a careless reader
might understand "if the stable release runs at all, it will run with
only few problems". OTOH, every german speaker who is dealing with the
syntax of programming languages should be able to get it right the way
it is now ;-)

Is there any other german speaker on this list willing to check for more
bugs / improvements? Thanks!

Florian

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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and, configuring minimalism

[Florian Zieboll]

On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:51:07 -
"dev1fanboy"  wrote:

> Aha, yeah I can see there's something going on with it now that I've
> checked.
> 
> Could you send the file in an attachment again? 

Here's the file. The change suggested in my other mail is already
implemented (and two more details changed in the first paragraph).

Ein kurzer Leitfaden zum Umstieg auf Devuan und der Konfiguration von 
Minimalismus


Viele Leute bei Devuan reden von Minimalismus und manche werden sich fragen, ob 
sie auf Devuan umsteigen können. Die Antwort ist: Ja. Du kannst zu Devuan 
wechseln und davon ausgehen, dass der 'stable'-Ableger nahezu problemlos 
läuft. Der ist bislang zwar nicht als 'stable' angekündigt, wie Du vielleicht 
auf devuan.org mitbekommen hast jedoch weitaus besser als Alpha-Qualität. Zur 
Zeit bin ich noch ein wenig am experimentieren, bevor ich dann einen 
umfassenderen Leitfaden zum Umsteigen, Installieren und weiteren Minimalisieren 
von Devuan schreiben werde. Bald kann ich hoffentlich ein Wiki für diese 
ganzen Informationen und mehr anlegen, aber jetzt will ich das für alle die 
ihr System umrüsten oder weiter minimalisieren möchten erstmal so 
veröffentlichen.


Los geht's!


1) Upgrade von Debian zu Devuan 'stable' (Jessie 1.0)

Du kannst sowohl von Debian Wheezy als auch von Debian Jessie zu Devuan Jessie 
1.0 umsteigen. Mit anderen Ablegern bist Du vorerst auf Dich allein gestellt. 
Bis zur offiziellen Veröffentlichung von 'stable' empfehle ich, Upgrades auf 
Devaun 'testing' (Ascii) zu vermeiden.

Zuerst öffne ein Terminal, tippe

user@debian:~$ sudo -s

und gib Dein Nutzer-Passwort ein. 

Oder, falls sudo nicht zur Verfügung steht:

user@debian:~$ su

und gib Dein Root-Passwort ein. 

Jetzt können wir mit den Upgrade loslegen. Damit apt die Pakete nur vom 
(derzeit einzigen) Devuan-Spiegelserver bezieht, musst Du die 'sources.list' 
editieren:

root@debian:~# nano /etc/apt/sources.list

Kommentiere ALLE vorhandenen Zeilen in der 'sources.list' aus und füge den 
Devuan-Spiegelserver mit dem Ableger Jessie (stable) hinzu. Das sollte dann 
ungefähr so aussehen:

#deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian wheezy main
deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main

Nun müssen wir den Devuan-Schlüsselbund aus dem Repository laden, um Pakete 
authentifizieren zu können:

root@debian:~# apt-get update
root@debian:~# apt-get install devuan-keyring

Viele die zu Devuan wechseln werden hoffen, dadurch dem Systemd-Netz zu 
entkommen – falls das auf Dich zutrifft, musst Du zunächst das Init-System 
festlegen. Ich werde in diesem Beispiel SysV-Init verwenden, weil ich das 
bereits getestet habe – falls vorhanden, wird Systemd-Init dabei entfernt:

root@debian:~# apt-get install sysvinit-core 

Beim Upgrade von Debian Wheezy wird das 'base-files'-Paket automatisch 
installiert, es wurde jedoch berichtet, dass es manuell ausgewählt werden 
muss, falls Du von Jessie her umsteigst. Wie auch immer, tun wir es einfach:

root@debian:~# apt-get install base-files

Starte das System-Upgrade mit:

root@debian:~# apt-get dist-upgrade

Abhängig von Deiner Internetverbindung kann das jetzt eine Weile dauern, Zeit 
für ein Getränk!

Wenn dann alles durchgelaufen ist, bist Du Nutzer von Devuan GNU/Linux 1.

Jetzt könntest Du noch ein wenig aufräumen (optional):

root@devuan:~# apt-get autoremove --purge
root@devuan:~# apt-get autoclean

Der erste Befehl entfernt alle 'verwaisten' Abhängigkeiten Deiner vorherigen 
Installation samt aller überflüssigen Konfigurationsdateien dieser Pakete. 
Ich empfehle diesen Schritt ausdrücklich als gute Sicherheits-Praxis. Der 
zweite Befehl löscht alle Pakete aus dem Cache, außer denen, die auf dem 
laufenden System noch installiert sind, und gibt so etwas Festplattenplatz frei.

Jetzt solltest Du noch einen Neustart machen, um auch den Kernel von Devuan zu 
nutzen:

root@devuan:~# reboot

Falls während des Upgrades Gnome deinstalliert worden sein sollte: Keine 
Panik! Das liegt daran, dass Gnome von Systemd abhängt und Du Dich zuvor für 
SysV-Init entschieden hast. Devuans Standard-Desktopumgebung ist XFCE:

root@devuan:~# apt-get install xfce4

Überprüfe, ob Du die Desktopumgebung starten kannst:

root@devuan:~# su - dein_nutzername
user@devuan:~$ startxfce4

Falls alles klappt, kannst Du nun gefahrlos einen Display-Manager für den 
nächsten Neustart installieren:

root@devuan:~# apt-get install slim


2) Minimalismus des Systems konfigurieren

Ein Minimalisten-Kollege von #debianfork (der vorläufig ungenannt bleiben 
soll, bis ich mit ihm gesprochen habe) gab mir einen Tipp, der es ermöglicht, 
Dein System auf äußerst geschickte Weise zu entschlacken. Das ist völlig 
optional und kann sowohl vor, als auch nach dem Upgrade geschehen. Wir werden 
apt so einrichten, dass es alle von Debian/Devuan 'empfohlenen' Pakete 
ignoriert, weil die Mehrzahl dieser Pakete auf dem System oft keinen Sinn 
macht. Es gibt einige 

Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Montag, 21. Dezember 2015 schrieb John Hughes:
> On 21/12/15 11:52, Rowland Penny wrote:
> > On 21/12/15 10:03, John Hughes wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd to 
> >> be able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to use 
> >> sysvinit, openrc or upstart or whatever.  At the moment things are 
> >> all fucked up because there is no long term alternative to the seat 
> >> management part of systemd and few people seem prepared to work on it.
> >> ___
> >> Dng mailing list
> >> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> >
> > This is what people have been trying to get through to you, if you run 
> > debain jessie, you 'HAVE' to use systemd whether you want to or not.
> 
> No, you don't.  You do have to have systemd installed, and I'm not sure 
> why, but systemd does not have to be pid 1.
> 
> > Can you answer why a desktop relies on an init system, because I cannot.
> 
> Because systemd (or systemd-shim) does session management, and Gnome 
> didn't want to keep doing it (badly) themselves.
> 
> > I can understand why parts of the desktop rely on something like udev, 
> > but this has now been subsumed by systemd.
> 
> No it hasn't.  The source code for udev is in the same tree as systemd, 
> and they share some library functions, but udev still works without systemd.
> 
> > If systemd had just been a replacement for sysv or upstart etc, then 
> > there would not have been all the row about it, those that wanted to 
> > use it could have and those that didn't, didn't have to, but no, 
> > because of the way it is taking over the established way of doing 
> > things, you are denied the free choice of what init system to use!
> 
> Assumes facts not in evidence.

It is hard to ignore your ignorance.

Nik

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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and, configuring minimalism

[dev1fanboy]

If anyone can improve upon the Italian or German translations, please feel free 
to post in this thread to discuss it with other translators :)


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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Mitt Green]

Hi,

You have mentioned pinning libsystemd0 for Ceres in Wiki

(https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Ceres-without-Systemd)
but as I have written it does no longer work.

There is no way to prevent this package from installing,
one has to use these repositories:

deb http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main 
deb-src http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main

And then add the apt key (under root):

gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-key BED007F9
gpg --armor --export BED007f9 | apt-key add -

I hope when Devuan will be released we won't need them, but till then
it is the way.

Yet there isone package that can't be upgraded currently, upower,
it requires libplist2 but there is libplist3 in Unstable.
For the rest, everything is smooth and stable (well,
if ye don't count occasional dependency dissatisfaction from apt,
but these things are native to Debian and get their fixes in a couple
of days).

Cheers,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] netman: Please, do NOT use 17-Dec-2015 commit/merge

[aitor_czr]

Hi Edward,


On 21/12/15 14:16, Edward Bartolo  wrote:

Hi Rainer and many thanks for your help,
In line with the quote above, what else should NOT be included in my
upload (git push) to git.devuan.org?

The list follows here:

edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman_from_backup_08.12.2015$  git status
On branch master
Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
Changes to be committed:
   (use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)

modified:   Makefile
modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
modified:   debian/rules


Once you applied the patch, you will get:

aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git status
On branch master
Changes not staged for commit:
  (use "git add ..." to update what will be committed)
  (use "git checkout -- ..." to discard changes in working directory)

modified:   Makefile
modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
modified:   debian/rules

no changes added to commit (use "git add" and/or "git commit -a")

They aren't staged. So, do this one:

aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git add .
aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git status
On branch master
Changes to be committed:
  (use "git reset HEAD ..." to unstage)

modified:   Makefile
modified:   debian/netman-backend.install
modified:   debian/rules

Now they are staged and you can commit them:

aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git commit --all
[master bece006] modified:   Makefile modified: 
debian/netman-backend.install modified:   debian/rules

 3 files changed, 14 insertions(+), 15 deletions(-)
 rewrite debian/rules (97%)

The Makefile file belongs to the upstream branch. You must generate a 
quilt patch for this change:


aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ dpkg-source --commit
dpkg-source: información: se han detectado cambios locales, los ficheros 
modificados son:

 netman/Makefile
Introduzca el nombre del parche:
[ ... ]


Give a name to the patch.

Now, commit the patch included in debian/patches:

aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git add .
aitor@devuan:~/netman-08.12.2015/netman$ git commit --all
[master ce84baf] .
 7 files changed, 64 insertions(+)
 create mode 100644 .pc/.quilt_patches
 create mode 100644 .pc/.quilt_series
 create mode 100644 .pc/.version
 create mode 100644 .pc/applied-patches
 create mode 100644 .pc/rainer.patch/Makefile
 create mode 100644 debian/patches/rainer.patch
 create mode 100644 debian/patches/series

You can see the applied patchesin .pc/applied_patches.

You can apply patches one by one using *quilt push* or unapply using 
*quilt pop*.


As well, you can apply all the patches using *quilt push -a* or unapply 
them using *quilt pop -a*.


Now you can build the packages.


Untracked files:
   (use "git add ..." to include in what will be committed)

.pc/
backend
backend_src/bin/
backend_src/obj/
debian/patches/
debian/tmp/

I think, I should instruct git to ignore all of them (.gitignore).

Edward


You can instruct git to ignore all of them, *except debian/patches*. So, 
*don't* add debian/patches to .gitignore


On the other hand, i suggest you to use a separate folder as build area:

$ git-buildpackage --git-export-dir="../build-area"  [ ... ]


Cheers,

  Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

John Hughes  writes:
> On 20/12/15 19:01, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> John Hughes  writes:
>>> On 19/12/15 11:58, dev1fanboy wrote:
 Gnome

 If you need more: apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 | wc -l
>>> We're going round in circles.  *I* posted that command:
>>>
>>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151218.143549.77d859b4.en.html
>>>
>>> But you still haven't said *why* you want to remove libsystemd0.
>> This is entirely the wrong question. There's presently no 'libsystemd0'
>> on my system. Why should it be added?
>
> Joke answer, to let you run systemd?

That's the answer I was already aware of.
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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Mitt Green]

On Monday Adam Borowski  wrote:



>Fixed.

Now it depends on libupower-glib1, which is obsolete. There is
libupower-glib3 in Unstable.

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Mitt Green  writes:
> I've been talking a lot about courtesy in the community.
> It is certainly the biggest thing Debian lacks (and
> some mates from outside lack it as well, check my post here:
> http://www.linux.org/threads/random-thoughts-on-linux-and-open-source-movement.7452/)
>
> I must admit that I *hate* when people use gutter language and insults
> in a public mailing list.

People who aren't native speakers expressing themselves in a way a lot
of native speaker do as well, especially if they're rather removed from
urban (white) (upper) middle class prejudices about acceptable use of
language, are, in my opinion, a lot less damaging than those capable of
working themselves up into exalted, strongly negative emotional states
(such as 'hate') because of trifles.
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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Mitt Green]

On Monday Adam Borowski  wrote:


>libupower-glib1 comes from upower sources, that's okay.  Changing the soname
>to that of upower 0.99 would lead to breakage, I'm using upower 0.9.23 which
>is the last version before suspend/hibernate/etc functionality was removed.


Then it's fine, thank you.


Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Question on Devuan

[Simon Hobson]

Linux O'Beardly  wrote:

> While many here would probably say it's not a good idea to run servers on 
> Devuan until a production release, I am already running it on a number of 
> servers.

That's good to know - I need to find time to do some testing myself.

> R. W. Rodolico  wrote:
> BTW, while I can not contribute the skills necessary at this point, my
> offer of a mirror still stands, whenever that becomes needed. Resources
> I have, but my programming skills are so far out of date I'd be a
> liability. But, resources I would be happy to share when/if you need them.

I too would be able to offer disk space and bandwidth - but that would be just 
the ~15Mbps of my home connection rather than any "fast" hosted server 
connection.

I suppose the biggest question has to be :
I assume people are working towards a situation where the user can 
"s/debian/devuan" in /etc/apt/sources and then dist-upgrade - I can't help 
feeling that for many (perhaps the majority) of users, adding some random 
repository might feel a bit "dangerous". Does anyone have a feel for how far 
off that might be ?

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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:53:18PM +, Mitt Green wrote:
> deb http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main 
> deb-src http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd-unstable main
> 
> Yet there isone package that can't be upgraded currently, upower,
> it requires libplist2 but there is libplist3 in Unstable.

Fixed.

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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 02:40:08PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
> >>No, you don't.  You do have to have systemd installed, [ see below for
> >>why ], but systemd does not have to be pid 1.
> >
> >OK, systemd doesn't have to be pid1, but by your admission, you still have
> >to have it installed *even* if you don't want to, this is *not* choice!
> 
> Having a few files and directories on your disk is a major problem? systemd
> is not running if you're using systemd-shim, it just needs the systemd
> directories (that's why systemd-shim depends on systemd -- I suppose it
> would be possible to break the systemd package up into "systemd-config" and
> "systemd-binaries", but what would be the point?)

There's far more to systemd than just init.  It's not just empty directories
or config that's needed on a -shim system.  Logind for example.

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Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 03:14:23PM +, Mitt Green wrote:
> On Monday Adam Borowski  wrote:
> 
> >Fixed.
> 
> Now it depends on libupower-glib1, which is obsolete. There is
> libupower-glib3 in Unstable.

libupower-glib1 comes from upower sources, that's okay.  Changing the soname
to that of upower 0.99 would lead to breakage, I'm using upower 0.9.23 which
is the last version before suspend/hibernate/etc functionality was removed.

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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Simon Hobson]

John Hughes  wrote:

> Yes, the impression I get around here is that this is a religious argument 
> for most of you.
> 
> I had hopes for Devuan, but the lack of rational thinking convinces me that 
> it's going nowhere.

There's no lack of rational thinking.
People here don't want to run SystemD, and what's more, we don't want to 
encourage people to add gratuitous dependencies because "it's OK, there'll 
always be a bit of SystemD present". While libsystemd0 may appear harmless, it 
isn't for two reasons :
1) By making it "OK" to have because "it does nothing", it encourages people to 
assume it's presences and use it - rather than actually checking first or just 
not using it if not needed.
2) I don't have the skills to check, and keep checking, that libsystemd is in 
fact "harmless". Just because it doesn't do anything now, doesn't mean that 
tomorrow someone will find that "doing nothing" is inconvenient* and so some 
"does more than nothing" code gets added.

* I'm thinking, someone decides they want to use a systemd function, but finds 
that the call "fails" when systemd isn't installed. So instead of just 
accepting that "if systemd isn't installed, they'll have to do X another way", 
they may well suggest that the functions supporting X are moved from the 
systemd package to libsystemd0 - "it's still OK, it's only a tiny support 
function". And so it goes on, like boiling a frog, until having libsystemd 
installed equates to running significant chunks of systemd itself.

Now, you may consider "doesn't want any part of systemd on my system" as 
religious zeal. It's not, I just don't want stuff that as far as I can tell is 
primarily designed to reduce reliability (in terms of the stuff I run). Not a 
single (claimed) "benefit" of SystemD is actually a benefit for my systems, in 
fact far from it. While I'm not a "programmer", I do know enough about the 
subject to read between the lines of some of it and see just how bad it is.
And yes, I've seen a function implemented while has just one function to cause 
data loss - why else would anyone go to the trouble of making an "async" sync 
call and complain about sync being sync ? It may or may not have been fixed, 
but the very fact of it getting into the project in the first place simply 
shows that the project is run/managed by people who (being generous) simply 
don't have a clue.

I don't want that on my systems.
I *like* text log files.
I *like* shell script init files.
I *like* sequential (deterministic) service startup.
These things have got me out of the brown stuff more than once !

I'm not in the least bothered about shaving a few seconds off the *apparent* 
boot time given that the hardware alone can take minutes before the OS itself 
gets to start.

Like most, iff SystemD was "just an init system" as some of it's supporters 
keep suggesting then no problem. I'd just not install it and carry on. But it 
isn't an init system - it's a Windows style "blob" of all encompassing stuff 
that goes against everything I like in Unix/Unix like systems !

> Bye.

Good bye - please don't come back until you've understood.

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rainer Weikusat  writes:
> Mitt Green  writes:
>> I've been talking a lot about courtesy in the community.
>> It is certainly the biggest thing Debian lacks (and
>> some mates from outside lack it as well, check my post here:
>> http://www.linux.org/threads/random-thoughts-on-linux-and-open-source-movement.7452/)
>>
>> I must admit that I *hate* when people use gutter language and insults
>> in a public mailing list.
>

[...]

> those capable of working themselves up into exalted, strongly negative
> emotional states (such as 'hate') because of trifles.

As additional clarification: I didn't mean to suggest that Mitt Green
was seriously contemplating to get his battle axe ready to chop somone's
foul head off because of "use of four letter words in public", just
highlight that one should be very careful wrt reading '[irrational]
aggression' into people based on use of certain words.
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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

>As additional clarification: I didn't mean to suggest that Mitt Green

>was seriously contemplating to get his battle axe ready to chop somone's
>foul head off because of "use of four letter words in public", just
>highlight that one should be very careful wrt reading '[irrational]

>aggression' into people based on use of certain words.

Exchange "hate" for "scorn" or "despise" or any other word with similar
meaning if you want. And I actually said that "I hate when people blah
blah blah" and *not* "I hate people who blah blah blah". I don't express
strong feelings such as hatred for such small things.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan's goal: was Our friendly community

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

You sound more and more like a troll.

John Hughes writes:
Having a few files and directories on your disk is a major 
problem? systemd is not running if you're using systemd-shim, it 
just needs the systemd directories


This is a classic fallacy. But each new file in /etc is one more file to 
look at and think about when trying to solve a problem.


https://i-msdn.sec.s-msft.com/dynimg/IC97569.gif is somewhat relevant. 
Ugly, not? That dialog is the result of allowing many unused little 
checkboxes because "what's the cost?".


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] Our friendly community

[Mitt Green]

‎Ra‎iner ,

You miss my point. I am trying to deliver
the message that it is in my opinion 
unacceptable for people to use oath and insults in
public. Doesn't matter in a pub, in a shop,
in a mailing list, in a class, in a street, whatever.
It can be acceptable in gangsta rap, in rednecks
societies, in Louis CK stand-up.

Linus, Lennart, Theo de Raadt, they are all 
criticised for using inappropriate language.
Debian is also blamed for lacking a little discipline
in the public mailing lists. I think we should
be like people in BSDs (comparing because I know
what I'm about), professional and friendly,
this at the same time also leads to proper documentation
(caring about others). I'm not cringing in disgust,
instead I'm saying that there is something else we
should excess at, and in my opinion it is valuable.
I don't agree with Linus that respect has to be earned;
I reckon it should be shown to everyone around
(well, at least publicly).


My two pennies,

Mitt‎
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