Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Walter]

On 07/14/2016 05:56 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):


I personally don't see the reason for such a reaction on your side
Rick (BTW, welcome here :)), but I am sure I am missing something. I
personally believe that all the work to avoid and contain systemd and
other nonsense is valuable, independently of where it comes from :)


I cannot imagine why you would ever think I don't agree!

I can only guess that you didn't bother to attentively read what I said
-- because I think Devuan's work is valuable and have already said so on
my OpenRC conversion page, on the referenced SVLUG mailing list thread,
and on this mailing list.

When you try to pick a fight with someone who admires what you're doing,
just because he doesn't agree with you on every single particular, and
_particularly_ when you attribute to him views he doesn't hold and whose
opposite he just expressed, maybe you should relax a bit and consider
switching to decaf.  ;->


Hi Rick,

I want to give a little bit of constructive criticism.

"A fool is known by a multitude of words." That is not to say you are 
fool. I don't know you. However, everyone is pretty busy. So if you want 
to express something accurately, minimize verbiage and refrain from 
using argumentum ad hominem. I read some of your conversation with Steve 
on SVLUG. Because it was so long, I didn't read everything. However, 
from what I did read, to me it you sounded like you had an axe to grind.


That might not the case.

It seems that you are asking: "What is the reason for Devuan when the 
same thing can be accomplished in a simpler way?" I will try to answer 
that from my experience.


I personally really appreciate what the people working on Devuan are 
doing - even if I can do it exactly the same way with pinning.


I have built my own systems and later was a Gentoo fan. I needed some 
cutting edge features that even Debian testing did not have. Debian was 
refined and tried and proven. It was wonderful for servers along with 
BSD. Do you remember those days? I respected their conservatism.


It seems to me Debian leaders want Debian to be the new shinny. This is 
even before systemd existed. The leaders at Debian could have continued 
to be leaders. Instead they became followers.


That is why I am thankful for Devuan and it's community.

By talking so much about this and that and wasting people's time, I 
winder if you have an agenda to push.


So here is a disclaimer for you:

Perhaps something like systemd is a great idea for certain users on 
mobile devices, etc. However, the way it's being created is questionable.


I am not looking for an answer to this email. I hope it helps you 
understand one of possibly many (ex)Debian users.


Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)

[Robert Storey]

Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)

> Robert Storey 
>> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 04:04:59 + (UTC)
>> From: Go Linux 
>>
>>>From /usr/share/doc/slim/README :
>>
>>Special usernames (commands configurable in the config file):
>>- console: start console login
>>- exit: exit SLiM
>>- halt: halt the system
>>- reboot: reboot the system
>
> Hi golinux,
>
> Thank you for this, it's useful information. However, just like the issue
on using F1 to scroll through available
> window managers, the above isn't obvious and is easily missed (after all,
I missed it). True, I'm not the geekiest
> Linux user alive, but I'm not a novice either.
>
> So I think it would be nice if there was a little "Help" box stuck in the
graphic login screen which contained all of
> the above info. It wouldn't have to be very intrusive, but there is
enough screen real estate to accommodate it, I think.
>
> Should I be filing a bug report to push this issue? Hardly seems like a
true "bug," but I do think it's important.

Hmm...I should have actually tried those commands before I shot off my
mouth. Now I see more problems...

The commands "console" and "exit" work, in the sense that you'll get a
console from where you can log in, though I see no advantage in that. You
could use Ctrl-Alt-F2 though F6 to do the same thing (and Ctrl-Alt F7 to
get back to the original login desktop). You still have to log in first
before you can reboot or shutdown.

The commands "halt" and "reboot" do not seem to work. SLIM asks me for a
password for user "halt" and user "reboot" which is less than useful, since
no such users exist.

There is an error in file /usr/share/doc/slim/README, it says:

CONFIGURATION
/usr/etc/slim.conf is the main configuration file.

Of course, that should say:
/etc/slim.conf is the main configuration file.

best regards,
Robert
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[DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,


The International Obfuscated C Code Contest, IOCCC was started by the
"masters" and "pioneers" in C. This is a "competition" for those who
take pride in compressing code to the point of making it practically
unreadable.

The following is a program submitted to IOCCC:
http://www.ioccc.org/2015/dogon/prog.c


At first, I was tempted to follow the path of writing obfuscated code,
but thinking about it, with todays huge computers, it simple doesn't
make sense to write difficult to read code. In the past there was an
advantage of writing such code that saved on code size as RAM size was
only a few kilobytes but definitely not today.

Here on this mailing list, I am noticing that being committed to write
legible code, is interpreted as an inherent lack of coding ability. In
my case, irrespective of the attacks by some, and the fact that when I
submitted functional code nobody commented about it, indicates that
those who are attacking are only interested in making disguised
personal attacks to dissuade me from helping in the project. The
answer to these people is: I will continue to move on irrespective of
your attacks.

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)

[Robert Storey]

> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 04:04:59 + (UTC)
> From: Go Linux 
>
>>From /usr/share/doc/slim/README :
>
>Special usernames (commands configurable in the config file):
>- console: start console login
>- exit: exit SLiM
>- halt: halt the system
>- reboot: reboot the system

Hi golinux,

Thank you for this, it's useful information. However, just like the issue
on using F1 to scroll through available window managers, the above isn't
obvious and is easily missed (after all, I missed it). True, I'm not the
geekiest Linux user alive, but I'm not a novice either.

So I think it would be nice if there was a little "Help" box stuck in the
graphic login screen which contained all of the above info. It wouldn't
have to be very intrusive, but there is enough screen real estate to
accommodate it, I think.

Should I be filing a bug report to push this issue? Hardly seems like a
true "bug," but I do think it's important.
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Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

<<
About choice of language. I read there are 191 undefined
behaviors in the C99 standard, which means an equal number
of tarpits waiting for the cognitively difficient coder.
>>

ROFLMAO!

I pity your vane attempts to mislead me and destabilise me
psychologically. "Cognitively dificient"?! You seem addressing some
kindergarthen failure. But reality proves otherwise and that is what
counts.

191 undefined behaviours?! LOL. What is that if not bending backwards
to make a point? Then, how does my code work reliably? I had that code
evaluated by an experienced C coder who gave me postive feedback about
it. Who cares about someone bending backwards to make a point that
contradicts reality? Reality is in my favour :D

Yes, I refrain from writing C obfuscated code. It doesn't make sense
with today's powerful computers not to write readable code, that is
why I make an effort to write readable code. Yet, you stupidly
interpret that as "intellectual deficiency".

Your intention is glaringly clear: you are not sincere, you are a dumb
liar and must be treated like one. What counts is feedback from those
who want to really help.

You made my day, ROFLMAO!

Next one, please!
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (Steve Litt)

[Go Linux]

On Thu, 7/14/16, Robert Storey  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (Steve Litt)
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016, 10:33 PM
 

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 22:39:34 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

>> Golinux told me that to change the window manager, when on the login
>> screen, you repeatedly press F1 to cycle through the installed window
>> managers. I confirm this, and will document it.
>>
>> However, I think somebody from Devuan should add to the login window's
>> graphic (the stylized lightgreen and darkergreen Login graphic) the
>> string "Press F1 to switch window managers." Today's computers should
>> be discoverable, and this is just too easy not to do. I'd do it myself
>> but I don't know which graphic, and probably my modification would be
>> an aesthetic step backward.
>
> Thanks for posting this, it's an issue I wanted to raise but glad someone 
> else brought it up first.
> 
> I've got a couple of other issues with the login screen that I was going to 
> bring up, and now is as > good a time as any...
> 
> If there is some other option for reboot/shutdown, I can't think of it at the 
> moment.
> 



From /usr/share/doc/slim/README :

Special usernames (commands configurable in the config file):
- console: start console login
- exit: exit SLiM
- halt: halt the system
- reboot: reboot the system


golinux


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Re: [DNG] Raspberry Pi 3

[Jaromil]

There is no more need to install Raspbian first.

all Devuan ARM images are now directly installable just like raspian
is. not just the Rpi2/3 image, but all others, will work the same: dd
on a SD card and boot.

and yes, in case you are asking yourself, not even Debian does provide
that ATM. We already include actual embedded platforms as installer
targets, which is handy and consistend with having a unique base.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Raspberry Pi 3

[Florian Zieboll]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:34:55 -0400
Brian Nash  wrote:

> The way I got Devuan on my RPI3 was by installing the normal Raspbian
> distro, then adding the armhf Devuan repositories to
> /etc/apt/sources.list, then re-installing everything and purging
> systemd.


Assuming that this works for the Raspi 3 as well:

Instead of installing a full Raspbian image - and to avoid the migration
back to SysV init, I use to set up a minimal (SysV based) Raspbian
Wheezy, using the "Raspbian unattended netinstaller", before changing
the sources.list to Devuan Jessie and doing the upgrade.

I am not sure if the latest releases still support Wheezy, so if in
doubt, I'd recommend to use v1.0.7, which is the latest to default to
Wheezy/SysV.

https://github.com/debian-pi/raspbian-ua-netinst/releases

libre Grüße,

Florian


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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk):

> You didn't read what I wrote did you ?

I most certainly did.  And I make no apologies for mildly mocking you
for speaking about a 'trojan', as that was patently ridiculous, and you
know it.

> It may be "inert" now - well actually it isn't completely inert if
> it's being called by packages with gratuitous dependencies on it* -

'Doing' something that is functionally indistinguishable from doing
nothing.  And a '000' rights mask would be fully effective paranoia
insurance.

> but as I said, there is zero guarantee that it won't remain "inert"
> forever. 

Are you capable of preventing the installation of package systemd?  I
am.  Thus, libsystemd0 does, in end-result, nothing.

But this is basically you doing a 'I don't like it' performance piece.
And:

> I only ask that you respect my viewpoint.

I'll do that if you cease shading the truth.  It's tiresome.  And it's
possible less-wary readers might be mislead, which would make me sad.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Hobson]

Rick Moen  wrote:

> An unused, inert library is a trojan?

You didn't read what I wrote did you ?
It may be "inert" now - well actually it isn't completely inert if it's being 
called by packages with gratuitous dependencies on it* - but as I said, there 
is zero guarantee that it won't remain "inert" forever. OK, it's perhaps being 
paranoid, but there is a 100% reliable way of ensuring that libsystemd doesn't 
sneak some unwanted stuff into the system - and that's to not have it there at 
all.

As pointed out, the systemd guys have demonstrated they cannot be trusted, I 
don't trust them, and I have a policy that no systemd element os going on my 
systems. You clearly have different ideas and that's your prerogative - I have 
no problem with that, I only ask that you respect my viewpoint.

* It's doing something, even if that something is (at the moment) just "do 
nothing and return".

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk):

> libsystemd0] is "part" of systemd, and I assume systemd won't work without it.

Question:  What does it do _without_ systemd?

I think you know the answer.  Nothing at all.  Rein du tout.  But, as I
said on my Web page, if worried about that, just make a nightly cron job
to ensure that it has 000 permissions.  

But, basically, facts matter, and unless you have some serious doubts
about the facts, the facts win, and ignoring expert data is a bad plan.  
(***COUGH*** Brexit voters ***COUGH***)  ;-> 

I do want libsystemd gone, too.  Probably my near-term good-enough way
of making it go away is just to remove it and use equivs to make the
system lie and claim it's there.  Done.

Guys, shouldn't this be FAQed?  Seems to me in (intermittently) reading
Dng archives in the past, there's been a lot of wasted time discussing
libsystemd0-is-a-problem-and-no-it-isnt over and over.

> No way am I having a trojan like that running on my servers.

An unused, inert library is a trojan? 
I'll have to update http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus5  ;->



> But on the subject of alternative repos, well that's a whole debate in
> itself.  For many of us, if something goes wrong and the brown stuff
> is flying off the fan in all directions, one of the questions people
> will ask is "where did stuff come from".  At present, my answer to
> that is : from the official Debian repositories except for X, Y, and Z
> which came from vendors repositories (eg, I have Ubiquiti's Unifi WiFi
> management system running on some systems). For most PHBs, that's an
> acceptable answer.

In my experience, if the PHBs are caught up in 'someone to sue' fallacy
(http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#someone-to-sue), they aren't
going to accept Debian, much less Devuan.  It's a toss-up about whether
they'll even accept CentOS.  _Those_ lot are generally devout RHEL
customers.

> For many people, if you have to tell the PHB that some of your
> packages came from "some random site on the internet" then that causes
> some political issues internally.

So, you don't do that, of course.  ;->

As an aside, one of the great comforts of being in charge of my own
infrastructure is that I'm refreshingly free to not have to follow
orders and work with Big Dumb Software.  _But_ when I do have to work
with Big Dumb Software because the bloke with the chequebook says so,
it's inevitably on RHEL/CentOS.

> However, what Devuan are doing is keeping all those Debian packages
> that don't need fixing (yet) and publishing a repo of fixed packages
> for those that do.

PHBs stuck in someone-to-sue fallacy mode aren't going to go for that.
IMO, you're dreaming.


> PS - I've read the essay on forks. I vaguely recall having read it
> before, and it makes good reading.

Thanks!

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Re: [DNG] Raspberry Pi 3

[Brian Nash]

Is that file a full SD card image?
Do you need a whole image?

If not, then this might work:

The way I got Devuan on my RPI3 was by installing the normal Raspbian
distro, then adding the armhf Devuan repositories to
/etc/apt/sources.list, then re-installing everything and purging systemd.

My method is a hack at best, but it has been completely stable so far.
For testing, I switched to using the PI as my general-purpose computer,
and nothing has gone wrong yet. (it's been a few months)

You do have to check that systemd isn't installed as a dependency of
another package, but aptitude is usually smart enough to get the correct
version.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 09:29:32PM +0200, shraptor wrote:
I am about to buy a Raspberry Pi and want to go with the latest 
version model 3.


When I check https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/
I only find devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_raspi2.img.xz

Will there be a version for Raspberry Pi 3 or should I buy the 
Raspberry Pi 2 version?


/scooby
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--
A cheap shot is a terrible thing to waste.


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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):

> And again, this is more or less what Devuan is doing :) We are still
> using 99.5% of the packages directly from Debian. All the packages
> developed for Devuan work with little or no effort at all in other
> Debian-based environments. We are probably just saying the same thing,
> in two different ways :)

True, that.  I'm not only aware of (and appreciate) that that's what
Devuan is doing, but specifically note that fact in my OpenRC conversion
Web page -- pointing out the ability of Debian users to use those repos
among other options.


> Me? No package at all.

OK, fair enough.  I'm sorry if I came across as irritatingly
literal-minded, but when one Dng poster says my page's comprehensive
list of impaired packages includes 'important' packages, another says it
includes 'fundamental Linux packages everyone runs on Linux', and
another (you) says implementing the page's tips entails 'a few
compromises', I wonder what _specifically_ they are referring to.

(I am also extremely skeptical of vagueness in areas where what is being
articulated sounds suspiciously like polemics.  See also your assertion
that '60% or 70%' of Debian 8 packages lacking systemd dependency, when
the correct figure can be easily determined to be 99.77%.  So, I _like_
specific and verifiable.  Specific and verifiable are good.)


In my view, part of the advantage of creating detailed documentation
(such as my modest Web page) is that any reader can decide for
himself/herself what is important and what course of action to take.

And I should stress that the intent was merely to say 'I tried this to
solve a problem, and here are details of what I found, some suggestions 
about ways residual problems might be dealt with, and clarifications and
some links about init systems.  It might be useful to you.  Or not.'
People on this mailing list keep treating the page like it's a polemic
to attempt to convince readers to do what it says, which seems more than
a bit crazy, to me.



> My computing is so simple and archaic that systemd cannot *currently*
> affect it in any meaningful way. But unfortunately I profoundly hate
> (and I am sure you will appreciate that this is the first time I use
> this word in our discussion) the change-for-change-sake attitude.

Yes, it's the Freedesktop.org CADT problem.  I hope people on this list
know the CADT meme, right?  https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

(I know the original CADT, Luis Villa, now an attorney.  He's far more
reasonable than Jamie Zawinski's sarcastic essay would suggest, and has
a worthwhile explanation for the bug-handling that inspired the essay:
http://lu.is/blog/2014/03/28/i-am-the-cadt-and-advice-on-needinfoing-old-bugs-en-masse/
)

CADT is one problem factor in the Freedesktop.org codebases in question
(systemd/udev, udisks2, PolKit, upower, packagekit, etc.), and tangled
dependency graphs are another.  And the gullibility of the GNOME people
(AFIACT, both upstream devs and maintainers of the Debian packages)
in falling for that suite of code was IMO the triggering factor in
setting off the crisis (along with the Debian Project failing to then
reassess its choice of GNOME as default DE).


> I hate being forced to use by default a software developed to solve a
> non-existing problem in a so intricate way that you barely recognise
> it as a solution to any problem at all.

{shrug}   I just deal with it.  

Experience suggests that dislike is not a plan, and is only an
unreliable motivator.  The military people have a useful acronym for
this situation:  OODA -- observe, orient, decide, and act (which is
a mnemonic to aid effective planning).
https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newTED_78.htm


> I am convinced that it is still possible to do things in 2016 (and in
> 2017, and in 2018, and until early 2038, fot that matter) avoiding the
> massive bloatware that they want to convince us to accept. And I am
> here to prove it, as you are. Maybe with different means.

Yes, indeed.  

Being mostly in server computing, and eschewing DEs by preference, I had
been able to ignore the controversy as a GNOME problem, and avoided it
by declining to install anything from GNOME with too ridiculous a
dependency train.  (So, for example, I find the dependency list of
packages abiword and gnumeric acceptable, but not some other GNOME
applications, and most definitely not, for example, 'evolution'.)

I've gradually become aware that udev is a liability, and am now on
guard against other Freedesktop.org CADTware.  Rob Landley's work making
mdev available will probably solve my udev problem (along with an
'equivs' item claiming falsely that udev is present).

People here keep suggesting that approaches like mine approximate
maintaining my own distribution, and are a strategic mistake.  I do not
agree with the premise:  I'm doing (and contemplating) nothing
_remotely_ like maintaining my own distribution.  My mother didn't raise
any fools:  The whole point of 

Re: [DNG] Raspberry Pi 3

[Jaromil]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016, shraptor wrote:

> I am about to buy a Raspberry Pi and want to go with the latest version
> model 3.
> 
> When I check https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/
> I only find devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_raspi2.img.xz
> 
> Will there be a version for Raspberry Pi 3 or should I buy the Raspberry Pi
> 2 version?


go ahead with buying a rpi3, is much better.

our image works perfect on rpi2 and 3, at dyne.org we already use it
in production for a couple of projects.

ciao

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[DNG] Raspberry Pi 3

[shraptor]

I am about to buy a Raspberry Pi and want to go with the latest version 
model 3.


When I check https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/
I only find devuan_jessie_1.0.0-beta_armhf_raspi2.img.xz

Will there be a version for Raspberry Pi 3 or should I buy the Raspberry 
Pi 2 version?


/scooby
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Dave Turner]

I have read about half of this thread and decided I would make my 
comments at the most recent response, so Jaromil wins (loses?!).


Most of what I have read is arguments between uber-geeks.
They can pin debian packages and make it do what they want but their 
needs seems to be... limited.
The tips on how to work around hplip for hp printers are interesting and 
I will try them on the debian sid installation on my elderly iMac.


Damn near everything I might want to do are deeply tied into systemd.
I don't like that.
The work-arounds are hard work. I have a life.
The ECU for the fuel injection on my Harley-Davidson has died.
Harley have very helpfully made the replacement ECU obsolete.
S Cycle can supply but only on Special Order.
Being a grumpy old tattooed biker I decided to remove everything related 
to fuel injection and fit a carburettor.

That isn't as easy as it sounds.
Harley have made the ignition module and the wiring harness for 
carburetted bikes obsolete.
Luckily the Sad Old Fart can (and has) used rejected bits of ECU wiring 
harness to make a new wiring harness to work with the carburetor. 
Daytona Twin Tec provided the the very nice ignition module.


Sad Old Fart _really_ doesn't want to have to do that for his assorted 
computers.


Nas4Free does the hifi - full of FLAC files.
SONOS do the wifi to hifi, and and BIG bi-amplified speakers make the noise!
(using crossovers in loudspeakers is so 20th Century - and if you 
are still using them, well, you know nothing!)

I was working with tri-amplified speaker setups in 1980.

Sad Old Fart is VERY pleased he persuaded the company he works for not 
to upgrade debian beyond wheezy.


And the uefi laptop I am using to write this also runs debian sid 
because I need the very latest packages for trying my hand at Android 
development.


My tired old Toshiba laptop runs devuan, but that is for fun.

DaveT Audio Engineering Society member amongst other things.

On 14/07/16 16:17, Jaromil wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016, Hendrik Boom wrote:


Percentage of Debian 8 packages you can use of you don't want systemd
around (again, unless I've missed any) is thus:

   (43671 - 97) / 43671 * 100 = 99.77%


That's probably the reason why amprolla works so well.


well the packages we mask are more and the list is on our website.

nevertheless you are right in noting Amprolla's workload is not
enormous (yet?) and even then we could spot some glitches in its
functioning. as usual, this is a learning process and Nextime's
silence on the matter can only signify he is working on it. the next
version will be still in python but with space for C modules and
that's where most of us are proficient so I guess there will be plenty
of space for improvement. I also don't exclude having shard style
caching and similar tricks on the forefront when necessary.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Rick Moen (r...@linuxmafia.com):

> I know.  The 'h' was a typo -- and I spotted it with considerable chagrin
> just after posting.  (I was far too tired.)

But the 'litte' was a genuine blunder from someone who is learning norsk
as a third language.  Fixed.  Takk for hjelp.


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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Harald Arnesen (har...@skogtun.org):

> Rick Moen [2016-07-14 11:24]:
> 
> > [1] 'litte-datamashin' is my laptop (hostname means 'little computer' in
> > Norwegian).
> 
> Sorry, no. In Norwegian, that would be 'liten datamaskin'.

I know.  The 'h' was a typo -- and I spotted it with considerable chagrin
just after posting.  (I was far too tired.)

The hyphen is there as a compromise because names of things in Unix
ought not to have embedded space characters (and I don't know whether
embedded space characters in hostnames are valid, and don't wish to find
out).

(Dad was from Kristiansund, and his mother was from Oslo.)
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 14:50:25 + (UTC)
Go Linux  wrote:

> On Thu, 7/14/16, Steve Litt  wrote:
> 
>  Subject: Re: [DNG] Need for documentation
>  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>  Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016, 9:07 AM
>  
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 17:33:26 +1200
> Daniel Reurich  wrote:

> > File a bug against desktop-base and slim packages and I'll try to
> > make sure we do that on both  
> 
> Thanks Daniel,
> 
> How do I file a bug against desktop-base and slim packages?

> 
> 
> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/desktop-base/issues
> 
> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/slim/issues

Thanks. Done!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
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[DNG] How can I help ?

[Karl Zomo]

Hello,

I'm tired of the packages that depend on systemd without really needing it.

I was trying to compile some packages without that dependency, with little
success.

Are there any written instructions how to do?

It's worth doing it separately from what they are doing in the distribution?

regards
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Jaromil]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> > 
> > Percentage of Debian 8 packages you can use of you don't want systemd
> > around (again, unless I've missed any) is thus:
> > 
> >   (43671 - 97) / 43671 * 100 = 99.77%
> 
> 
> That's probably the reason why amprolla works so well.


well the packages we mask are more and the list is on our website.

nevertheless you are right in noting Amprolla's workload is not
enormous (yet?) and even then we could spot some glitches in its
functioning. as usual, this is a learning process and Nextime's
silence on the matter can only signify he is working on it. the next
version will be still in python but with space for C modules and
that's where most of us are proficient so I guess there will be plenty
of space for improvement. I also don't exclude having shard style
caching and similar tricks on the forefront when necessary.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation

[Jaromil]

hi Aitor

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016, aitor_czr wrote:

>Now, i suspect the cause... And i added *aufs* and *squashfs*
>support to the kernel.


if they weren't in already, I'm pretty sure that was the problem.

>My patience with linux-libre-4.6.2 still hasn't run out :)

please keep it up, many of us are looking forward to build 100% libre
distributions based on Devuan!

many thanks for your good work on this

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 02:24:31AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> What I did (that was documented on the OpenRC conversion page) sufficed
> to prove that common claims about deep and pervasive systemd-dependency
> problems in Debian 8 have been vastly exaggerated (I list in detail the
> ones that actually exist).  Also, I show that it's trivial to make
> Debian 8 run just fine using one of the four other packaged init systems
> -- with high confidence the other three also work great, and also nosh
> (compatible third-party package) -- as long as you don't need
> NetworkManager, a couple of packages from five bloatware DEs, the
> GNOME-oriented metapackage for HPLIP, and a couple of miscellaneous
> obscure apps (such as daisy-player).
> 
> That is not, in itself, a systemd cure for _all_ of Debian-stable.  Some
> people through bad judgement like NetworkManager ;-> , and through
> equally questionable judgement wish to install the entire kitchen-sink
> suites of GNOME, MATE, Cinnamon, KDE, or Razor-qt.  Moreover, other
> irksome dependencies may arise, though (given release policies) very
> likely not until Debian-stable is Debian 9 'Stretch' at the earliest.
> 
> To be sure to be able to keep the DE freaks happy, as well as to ensure
> ability to deal with future annoyances, more is required -- such as
> repos of fix-up packages.  Yours, mine, Devuan's, whoever's.
> 
> This is what Siduction and Aptosid already do, to run a Debian-variant
> community based on an enforced policy, in their case 'we will further
> stabilise the package stream in Debian-unstable'.  Which works great, by
> the way.
> 
> There are numerous ways to enforce a local (or limited-interest) policy
> on a distribution's offerings.  That is one of them.  I list in my
> OpenRC conversion page a number of ways to overcome dependency problems:  
> find a third-party repo's package that's built better, rebuild the
> package locally using dpkg-buildpackage or debuild (i.e., using
> different build options), make a new package using debhelper and
> upstream source code.  The results of any of those can then be
> republished as part of a package repo.  
> 
> A number of people getting together and pooling their third-party repos
> for that purpose would be closely analogous to Siduction and Aptosid's
> repos that fix-up Debian-unstable.

I upgraded my main system from debian wheezy to Devuan jessie recently.
I find it extremely convenient that I don't have to do all that 
pinning and selecting particular packages and checking whether 
they covertly invoke systemd.

I'm sure I'm not the only user that appreciates the work Devuan has 
put into this so that I don't have to.

The only thing I've lost is the display/login manager gdm, which I 
don't really miss enough to install an alternative.  startx works just 
fine.  And it's simpler.

...
...
> 
> Percentage of Debian 8 packages you can use of you don't want systemd
> around (again, unless I've missed any) is thus:
> 
>   (43671 - 97) / 43671 * 100 = 99.77%


That's probably the reason why amprolla works so well.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation

[Go Linux]

On Thu, 7/14/16, Steve Litt  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Need for documentation
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016, 9:07 AM
 
On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 17:33:26 +1200
Daniel Reurich  wrote:

> On 14/07/16 17:27, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 22:39:34 -0400
> > Steve Litt  wrote:
> >   
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> When installing, you get to pick which window manager you want.
> >> Trouble is, there's no obvious way to change your window manager
> >> after the fact. Somebody needs to document how to do this, and keep
> >> the document in an obvious place, with a link from the top of our
> >> documentation tree. 
> >
> > Golinux told me that to change the window manager, when on the login
> > screen, you repeatedly press F1 to cycle through the installed
> > window managers. I confirm this, and will document it.
> >
> > However, I think somebody from Devuan should add to the login
> > window's graphic (the stylized lightgreen and darkergreen Login
> > graphic) the string "Press F1 to switch window managers." Today's
> > computers should be discoverable, and this is just too easy not to
> > do. I'd do it myself but I don't know which graphic, and probably
> > my modification would be an aesthetic step backward.
> >   
> File a bug against desktop-base and slim packages and I'll try to make
> sure we do that on both

Thanks Daniel,

How do I file a bug against desktop-base and slim packages?

Thanks,

SteveT



https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/desktop-base/issues

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/slim/issues

As to modification . . . that is hellekin's domain and Daniel could do it too 
(others too).  If you open an issue that will be a reminder to do it before the 
next release

golinux
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation

[aitor_czr]

Hi all,

El 14/07/16 a las 21:24 de la Noche Plutoniana, Steve Litt escribió:
However, I think somebody from Devuan should add to the login window's 
> graphic (the stylized lightgreen and darkergreen Login graphic) the 
> string "Press F1 to switch window managers." Today's computers 
should > be discoverable, and this is just too easy not to do. I'd do 
it myself > but I don't know which graphic, and probably my 
modification would be > an aesthetic step backward.


I'm not sure, but i think that the version of Slim in ascii has this 
feature. So, it will not be difficult to add it in jessie. I can't do 
that at the time being, becausei'm still working on the kernel [*]. 
So, i can't reboot my system||.


It'll be also usefull--for a common logout window-- to leave a trace of 
the started window manager in /etc/slim or somewhere else.


Cheers,

  Aitor.


[*] The kernel works, but i can't run it in live mode. I still get the 
following message:



[...]

|modprobe: module ehci-orion not found in modules.dep

BusyBox bla, bla, bla...

/bin/sh: can't access tty; job control turned off

(initramfs)

||[...]
|

|There are a lot of links in internet about this issue, the most of them 
referring to Clonezilla, Kali Linux and Refracta live systems. But i 
can't find any solution online:(


|Now, i suspect the cause... And i||added *aufs* and *squashfs* support 
to the kernel.


M||y patience with linux-libre-4.6.2 still hasn't run out :)


|||


|
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Ismael L. Donis Garcia]

- Original Message - 
From: "KatolaZ" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless



On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 11:14:18AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:

Hullo, I'm the rat bastard who wrote
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html and is thus
either ignorant or a very sadistic systemd hooligan.  


Hi, Jaromil!  You and I have corresponded in e-mail, and you'll recall
that I like Devuan, appreciate its work, and follow it with interest.
Normally, I follow dng (intermittently) only via its Web archive,
because I don't really have time for more mailing lists, but I'll be on
here for at least present discussion for a while.



[cut]

I personally don't see the reason for such a reaction on your side
Rick (BTW, welcome here :)), but I am sure I am missing something. I
personally believe that all the work to avoid and contain systemd and
other nonsense is valuable, independently of where it comes from :)

It is true that the pinning game can actually work for you or for me,
who are content with a minimal window manager and xterm, but this is
not a viable long-term solution for the Linux community. For that
matter, most of us could have simply solved the systemd-problem two
years ago by playing the pin game for a while and then switching to
(or in some cases, just remaining with) *BSD.

Maybe those are still good solutions in some speficic cases, who might
allow single individuals to continue their computing as "normal", but
IMHO pinning won't work forever, for the same reason why in just two
years you already have several dozens basic packages depending in a
way or another on systemd. 


That's why, although I appreciate efforts like yours and those of a
dozen more who have been experimenting with pinning (we have done that
as well, for months), I remain convinced that maintaining a
systemd-free fork of a distributition, and of a fundamental one like
Debian, is a more sustainable way of dealing with the problem. It's
not easy, but nothing is easy :)

HND

KatolaZ


+1

Best Regards

| ISMAEL |



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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 10:15:50 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> We need a reliable APT based core distribution to build upon, which is
> not out for grabs for the next tribe of pubescent rockstar-coders
> wanting to prove themselves worthed of changing history. 

ROFLMAO!

The next time someone calls me "neckbeard" or "graybeard" I'll turn
around and call him "Clearasil Boy!" And the next time someone refers
to people with more than a week's experience as "neckbeards" or
"graybeards", I'll let him know he's one of the "Clearasil Crew."

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 10:41:36PM +0200, Dragan FOSS wrote:
> 
> Can you explain what is the *essential difference* between
> 
> Pin-Priority: -1 for systemd packages
> in /etc/apt/preferences
> 
> and
> ...
> banpkgs: systemd,systemd-sysv
> ...
> part of amprolla.conf ?

Not much difference in itself, but having a separate distro means 
there's room for systemd-free versions of packages that have 
become entangled with systemd, while using the same names for easy 
recognition.

> 
> Thanks in advance :)

You're welcome in advance!

-- hendrik
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[DNG] OT: 2000 words per day.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 08:45:09PM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> 
> I have no time now to recall all the analysis :^( plus for other
> reasons I'm typing approx 2000 words per day and its becoming sort of
> taxing on my hands.

Congratulations!

If you'd call all that a novel and do it during November you'd have 
won Nanowrimo.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation

[Go Linux]

On Thu, 7/14/16, Steve Litt  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Need for documentation
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016, 12:27 AM
 
On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 22:39:34 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> When installing, you get to pick which window manager you want.
> Trouble is, there's no obvious way to change your window manager
> after the fact. Somebody needs to document how to do this, and keep
> the document in an obvious place, with a link from the top of our
> documentation tree.

Golinux told me that to change the window manager, when on the login
screen, you repeatedly press F1 to cycle through the installed window
managers. I confirm this, and will document it.

However, I think somebody from Devuan should add to the login window's
graphic (the stylized lightgreen and darkergreen Login graphic) the
string "Press F1 to switch window managers." Today's computers should
be discoverable, and this is just too easy not to do. I'd do it myself
but I don't know which graphic, and probably my modification would be
an aesthetic step backward.

Thanks,

SteveT



The "stylized lightgreen and darkergreen Login graphic" went bye-bye a long 
time ago.  It should be a nice purpy just like the desktop.  Do you have the 
latest desktop-base installed?

golinux

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Hobson]

Rick Moen  wrote:

> For completeness, I'll mention that, if a Debian 8 'Jessie' or Debian 9
> 'Stretch' system does end up suffering packager-caused intrusion of
> systemd into important packages (for some value of 'important' ;-> ),
> then I can confidently predict that alternative packages in third-party 
> repos will become wildly popular among Debian admins.

I try to stay out of discussions like this, but I will comment on just this 
point.

For myself, and the servers I run*, the intrusion has already happened - a 
gratuitous dependency from one of the ClamAV packages on libsystemd0 in Debian 
Jessie.
You can argue, and many have (especially the ClamAV package maintainers in 
"very firmly" rejecting a bug report) that libsystemd0 is not systemd. Well 
maybe, but ...
It is "part" of systemd, and I assume systemd won't work without it. It may be 
benign now (the "all it does is returns that systemd isn't running" argument), 
but given the way things have been going, I have precisely zero trust that 
"stuff" won't find it's way in there in such a manner that having it means 
having bits of systemd running. That wedge is in there, they can just keep 
tapping it in over time.
No way am I having a trojan like that running on my servers.
But so many packages have what should really be a "soft" dependency on it. 
Surely it can't be "really hard" to have a system that allows you to use 
something if it's there, and not if it isn't ? Downloading the package source, 
and building a local systemd-free version is beyond my skill set - not to 
mention the ongoing maintenance every time the package is updated. This 
maintenance is alluded to in earlier threads.
Globally, it's far more efficient if one person does that work, once, and 
others get to share it


And I have zero confidence in the ability of the programmers on the project. 
Partly based on what I read of the way bugs are treated in systemd, and partly 
on what I read about Lennart Poettering's previous projects, and partly on what 
I can see for myself ...
Now, I'm not a programmer (I've done stuff in the past Assembly, PLM, Pascal), 
but these days I'm limited to a bit of Bash hacking), but as an admin I know 
what the sync call is there for, and what it's supposed to do. I find it 
strange then that they should go to long lengths to create the oxymoron of an 
async sync https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/master/src/basic/async.c
The comment says it all really : "
> It kinda sucks that we have to resort to threads to implement an asynchronous 
> sync(), but well, such is life.

I've seen in the past what an async sync can do for data. Apple got seriously 
hit some years ago by a disk drive manufacturer that played this game. On 
shutdown, the OS flushed all data and waited for the drive to respond that the 
data was written before turning the power off. Only the drive manufacturer "had 
a great idea" and the drive still had dirty data in it's own cache when the 
power went off - sometimes, depending on amount of data, and timing, etc. I 
think you can see where that leads !

So we seem to have a project that will allow someone to write an oxymoron of a 
function, and allow it into the codebase. I note the file says "Copyright 2013 
Lennart Poettering"



But on the subject of alternative repos, well that's a whole debate in itself.
For many of us, if something goes wrong and the brown stuff is flying off the 
fan in all directions, one of the questions people will ask is "where did stuff 
come from".
At present, my answer to that is : from the official Debian repositories except 
for X, Y, and Z which came from vendors repositories (eg, I have Ubiquiti's 
Unifi WiFi management system running on some systems). For most PHBs, that's an 
acceptable answer.

For many people, if you have to tell the PHB that some of your packages came 
from "some random site on the internet" then that causes some political issues 
internally. However, what Devuan are doing is keeping all those Debian packages 
that don't need fixing (yet) and publishing a repo of fixed packages for those 
that do.
The difference though is that the unified whole is something some of us can 
point our PHBs to as a "supported distribution" - it's not (as far as the PHB 
is concerned) Debian with a few outside hacks, it's the distribution Devuan.

Personally, I'd not have a problem with adding a Devuanish repo over and above 
the Debian repos and perhaps adding a little pinning foo - but many admins 
don't have this luxury with their employers hat on.


* I think we have a fair bit in common - everything I use for work is headless, 
the only "desktop" Linux I use is for my MythTV frontends at home.


PS - I've read the essay on forks. I vaguely recall having read it before, and 
it makes good reading.
I would hope that in time, "Debian" will come to realise it's made a mistake 
and the forks can re-converge and merge as you describe for some scenarios. If 
not, then 

Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 13:10:59 +0200, Harald wrote in message 
:

> Rick Moen [2016-07-14 11:24]:
> 
> > [1] 'litte-datamashin' is my laptop (hostname means 'little

..he _could_ be referring to our trouble shooter friend Steve... ;o)

> > computer' in Norwegian).
> 
> Sorry, no. In Norwegian, that would be 'liten datamaskin'.

...which most Norwegians pronounce "leetn datamashin." ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 02:24:31AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:

[cut]

> 
> There are numerous ways to enforce a local (or limited-interest) policy
> on a distribution's offerings.  That is one of them.  I list in my
> OpenRC conversion page a number of ways to overcome dependency problems:  
> find a third-party repo's package that's built better, rebuild the
> package locally using dpkg-buildpackage or debuild (i.e., using
> different build options), make a new package using debhelper and
> upstream source code.  The results of any of those can then be
> republished as part of a package repo.  
>

And again, this is more or less what Devuan is doing :) We are still
using 99.5% of the packages directly from Debian. All the packages
developed for Devuan work with little or no effort at all in other
Debian-based environments. We are probably just saying the same thing,
in two different ways :)

[cut]

> 
> > Reality is a bit more complicated than that, and ways more colorful :)
> 
> I was actually curious which of the packages I list -- or any I might
> have missed through error -- you saw as constituting 'a few compromises'.  
> 
> My page was clear about my use-case, and the ones that the page does and
> doesn't hit.  I have absolutely no problem with others considering any
> of the unavailable packages important, but I'm curious about which one
> you did, and why.
> 

Me? No package at all. My computing is so simple and archaic that
systemd cannot *currently* affect it in any meaningful way. But
unfortunately I profoundly hate (and I am sure you will appreciate
that this is the first time I use this word in our discussion) the
change-for-change-sake attitude. I hate being forced to use by default
a software developed to solve a non-existing problem in a so intricate
way that you barely recognise it as a solution to any problem at all.

I am convinced that it is still possible to do things in 2016 (and in
2017, and in 2018, and until early 2038, fot that matter) avoiding the
massive bloatware that they want to convince us to accept. And I am
here to prove it, as you are. Maybe with different means.

[cut]

> 
> > Or you will be forced to make your own distro (which is something that
> > almost anybody with a basic understanding of Linux should be capable
> > of doing).
> 
> I was co-maintainer of a Red Hat Linux variant around 1997-8 written
> for a cybercafe I helped build, and so I probably _could_ do it again,
> but would not do so without a very good reason that I can't offhand
> imagine having.  (We needed much better NFS/NIS than RHL furnished.)  
> 
> More to the point, it would almost certainly be smarter to use measures
> such as I've highlighted above (again).
> 

That's your opinion, and I respect it. My opinion is different, and
probably won't change, so I am sure you will respect it in turn. Do
you think all the guys and ladies here are just a bunch of assholes
who didn't think about the possibility of pinning, and dpkg-buil-ding,
and mixing repos, and duct-taping the oddities introduced by systemd
one after the other? :)

You are a smart guy, and I am am sure you don't mean that. And even if
you do, you are not alone in the club, since this is a quite common
opinion these days, with which we are getting used to live anyway.

We don't need to prove here who is better than whom. We need to
provide as many alternatives as possible to the incumbent madness. All
efforts are welcome.

[cut]

> 
> Percentage of Debian 8 packages you can use of you don't want systemd
> around (again, unless I've missed any) is thus:
> 
>   (43671 - 97) / 43671 * 100 = 99.77%
> 
> (FWIW, current Debian-unstable, comprising as above main + contrib +
> non-free, has 52750 packages.  I just checked.)
>

Again, I don't use GNOME, but if I can't shutdown from GNOME this is a
little daily PITA. I don't need hplip, but if I do (and, just to
mention, if I admin a couple dozens machines which do), then hacking
around a solution at each dist-upgrade is a PITA. If the systemd-lot
wants to push "sessions" to the point of asking screen and tmux to
change their code base in order to adhere to the systemd-lot view of
the world, this is not just a PITA, but an insult to the way free
software is normally developed, i.e. to cooperate with more free
software.

Is this attitude that I don't like, and that I wish to contain, more
that the technicalities and issues related to systemd, or the number
of packages that are currently affected by this cancer. I concluded
that hacking around technical issues is not the way to deal with what
I percieve as a very dangerous attitude, because this precise attitude
is bound to cause more and more of these technical nuisances, to the
point that nuiances is more or less the only thing you get.

I really hope Devuan will be proven wrong by a strong community effort
able to force reason back in the Debian quarters. But I can't see any
concrete sign of that happening anytime soon. I mostly see

Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):

> Look Rick, Devuan is exactly trying to do this, in a consistent and
> comprehensive way, well before it will be too late.

Exactly!  I'm not only well aware of this, but mention it with approval
on my OpenRC conversion Web page.

> I think I know very well what you said, since I believe I can
> understand English a little :) The conclusion seemed to be that since
> pinning worked for your use case, there was no reason to fork Debian
> and start Devuan. 

Not really what I said.  Probably my fault for being unclear, so I'll explain:

What I did (that was documented on the OpenRC conversion page) sufficed
to prove that common claims about deep and pervasive systemd-dependency
problems in Debian 8 have been vastly exaggerated (I list in detail the
ones that actually exist).  Also, I show that it's trivial to make
Debian 8 run just fine using one of the four other packaged init systems
-- with high confidence the other three also work great, and also nosh
(compatible third-party package) -- as long as you don't need
NetworkManager, a couple of packages from five bloatware DEs, the
GNOME-oriented metapackage for HPLIP, and a couple of miscellaneous
obscure apps (such as daisy-player).

That is not, in itself, a systemd cure for _all_ of Debian-stable.  Some
people through bad judgement like NetworkManager ;-> , and through
equally questionable judgement wish to install the entire kitchen-sink
suites of GNOME, MATE, Cinnamon, KDE, or Razor-qt.  Moreover, other
irksome dependencies may arise, though (given release policies) very
likely not until Debian-stable is Debian 9 'Stretch' at the earliest.

To be sure to be able to keep the DE freaks happy, as well as to ensure
ability to deal with future annoyances, more is required -- such as
repos of fix-up packages.  Yours, mine, Devuan's, whoever's.

This is what Siduction and Aptosid already do, to run a Debian-variant
community based on an enforced policy, in their case 'we will further
stabilise the package stream in Debian-unstable'.  Which works great, by
the way.

There are numerous ways to enforce a local (or limited-interest) policy
on a distribution's offerings.  That is one of them.  I list in my
OpenRC conversion page a number of ways to overcome dependency problems:  
find a third-party repo's package that's built better, rebuild the
package locally using dpkg-buildpackage or debuild (i.e., using
different build options), make a new package using debhelper and
upstream source code.  The results of any of those can then be
republished as part of a package repo.  

A number of people getting together and pooling their third-party repos
for that purpose would be closely analogous to Siduction and Aptosid's
repos that fix-up Debian-unstable.


> Well, you know better than me by now that each user tends to put
> himself at the centre of the world, and is normally biased in thinking
> that his or her use case is so common that there is no reason why
> people should need anything else. 

Truth!  ;->

> Reality is a bit more complicated than that, and ways more colorful :)

I was actually curious which of the packages I list -- or any I might
have missed through error -- you saw as constituting 'a few compromises'.  

My page was clear about my use-case, and the ones that the page does and
doesn't hit.  I have absolutely no problem with others considering any
of the unavailable packages important, but I'm curious about which one
you did, and why.


> There will probably come a day in which the amount of work you need to
> do in order to work around blockheaded distro policies will be so
> large that you would be better off using some other distro, if you can
> find any other distro around that does not have the same problem.

Over the 23 years I've been a Linux user, I've heard that said at least
thirty or forty times for every time it's proven true, though.

Managing a system built up from H.J. Liu's root & boot floppies by
fetching and compiling tarballs in 1993, now, _that_ was too much work.
Hearing about Slackware was a godsend.


> Or you will be forced to make your own distro (which is something that
> almost anybody with a basic understanding of Linux should be capable
> of doing).

I was co-maintainer of a Red Hat Linux variant around 1997-8 written
for a cybercafe I helped build, and so I probably _could_ do it again,
but would not do so without a very good reason that I can't offhand
imagine having.  (We needed much better NFS/NIS than RHL furnished.)  

More to the point, it would almost certainly be smarter to use measures
such as I've highlighted above (again).


> I call it duct tape, because if I choose a distribution like Debian
> Jessie, which has 42000 packages available, and then I end up being
> able to use roughly 60% or 70% of them if I don't want systemd around,
> then what I need is another distribution, and if it is not just know,
> it will be the case in the near future.

Your math (or 'maths' 

Re: [DNG] Helping (was: Why Debian 8 Pinning is pointless)

[Simon Hobson]

Jaromil  wrote:

> So if you visit daily this page https://distrowatch.com/devuan and
> even set it as homepage on your computers, then this will definitely
> help us putting the word out about Devuan. We can always use more
> visibility and DW is an excellent avenue for that.

Done - set as my homepage now.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Jaromil]

dear Rick I did not expect you to use 'shutdown -h now'!
the real old school thing is 'init 0' (or 'init 6' for reboot) :^)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016, Rick Moen wrote:

> > In fact, the outcome of Ian Jackson's GR enforces their right to
> > such sabotage.
> 
> That is not an accurate representation of the GR outcome

I believe this is the best accurate representation 
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20=120652=576562#p576502

in that GR the Debian leadership has allegedly allowed the democratic
governance of the Debian project to be boycotted. worthed re-reading
now as dasein just updated it with a more detailed procedural
explanation of his vote analysis.

> I've been explaining to people the essential role of forking in open
> source since at least that 1999 essay that Slashdot picked up.
> http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Licensing_and_Law/forking.html

thanks for this, I did not knew it back then and is a fascinating
read. I believe there is only one thing that you omit in your general
consideration on the faith of forks: that there is also a
*sovereignty* aspect to them.

If the reason for a fork is to acquire sovereignty, it may well be
that it will survive, thrive and grow on its own. If the reason is
simply that to make an interface user friendly or a sourcecode look
better, it will not. Devuan is born out of the need for sovereignty of
definitely more than half of the folks who relied on Debian's
governance and the work that was being done on it by volunteers.

For us, the systemd issue is just the last (big) drop in a full
bucket. We believe that Debian's governance is corrupted and
corruptible.

Therefore, by now, we need ultimate control and outreach to override
any decision in Debian. Be it in 1 year or 10 years from now, we may
go our own way. Even if Debian 9 comes out with openrc, I can
hardly imagine anyone among our developers will ever go back to it.

We need a reliable APT based core distribution to build upon, which is
not out for grabs for the next tribe of pubescent rockstar-coders
wanting to prove themselves worthed of changing history. Let Debian do
the innovation dance, meanwhile we have actual work to do here and
that cannot be stepping back to adjust a core, but eventually work on
what you call 'local implementation of policy', what Katolaz calls
'duck tape', in the most minimal way possible. Because that is the
layer where liability falls on actual humans and operators.

To those who aren't convinced I just say good luck blaming a kid when
the shit will hit the fan in the farm you are liable for.
I believe I do not need to explain you how many mission critical
deployments around the world rely on Debian already. As their workload
in keeping it stable will increase, we can thrive off the workload
we'll peel off for them just by providing a proper base system.

Can one do this by pinning? I doubt. The complexity for 'local
implementation of policy' will just keep growing and growing.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):

> Wait Rick, I don't think anybody wants to engineer a confrontation
> between you and Devuan, indeed :)

I'm glad of that.

I was speaking of Steve cross-posting here my view that less arduous
means exist of running a no-systemd Debian variant community.  Yes, that
_is_ my opinion (qualified as stated), but I didn't waltz in here and
proclaim said view, for various reasons including that doing so would
have been rude and annoying.  I'm not that guy.

Steve seems to have wanted to (effectively) make me that guy.   I find
_that_ just a bit rude and annoying.  But I'll gladly let it pass.

> I personally appreciate your contribution to the discussion, and I
> understand some of the critics moved by Steve Litt. I am sure that the
> thread will be useful to many of us, or at least to those who dare
> delving into the prolonged emails that compose it :D

Well, I'm glad of that, anyway, too.

-- 
Cheers,   He's making a database;
Rick Moen He's sorting it twice.
r...@linuxmafia.com   SELECT * from contacts WHERE behavior = 'nice';
McQ! (4x80)   SQL Clause is coming to town.  -- @KarenMN 
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 07:32:11PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:

[cut]

> 
> And I'm not the one who sought to wave that in the faces of the Dng
> mailing list, either.  You are.  Because, I rather suspect, you wanted
> to engineer a confrontation between me and the Devuan Project.
> Unfortunately, this doesn't work because I am a fan of that project.

Wait Rick, I don't think anybody wants to engineer a confrontation
between you and Devuan, indeed :)

I personally appreciate your contribution to the discussion, and I
understand some of the critics moved by Steve Litt. I am sure that the
thread will be useful to many of us, or at least to those who dare
delving into the prolonged emails that compose it :D

We're grown-ups, aren't we? So we can discuss without hanger, since
hanger we do not need.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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