Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Antony Stone (antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it):

> You're quite right - the Gnome devs are not getting people to participate 
> (unless they already fit the required mindset).

In addition to what Alessandro listed, they also have made very clear
they'll reject code patches that support, perpetuate, or restore
configurability items they wish to vanish.  One can agree or disagree 
about their judgements on 'simplifying' but mass-removing
configurability (I don't think much of it, myself), but (as you say) I
find the implication of bring about significantly greater participation
suspect, not to mention self-serving.

Happily, everyone gets to be happy.  The GNOME3 devs and those who like
them can have what, as Mr. Lincoln said, is 'the sort of thing that will
be enjoyed by those who enjoy that sort of thing.'  Everyone else can be
happy with the large and prospering set of non-GNOME3 choices.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Alessandro Selli]

On 21/06/2017 at 18:06, Bruce Perens wrote:

[...]

> I do seem to hear a lot of the same sentiment as the pro-code guys in this
> discussion. And I know where that goes. We didn't dumb anything down, we
> just got people to participate. And everything was better for it.

  I take you read the ignorant Guru's post at
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/
Please, would you point us out where are Gnome devs getting "people to
participate"?  Introducing API breakages at every minor patch level?
Onesidedly taking out consolidated features?  Regularly ignoring users'
wishes and theme developers needs?  Closing bug reports with WONTFIX because
Gnome's brand value matters more than users' satisfaction?


  Cordially,


Alessandro

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/06/2017 à 08:32, Bruce Perens a écrit :
It's because the community that GNOME is serving is /not you. /And it 
is very, very important for Free Software to serve a community that is 
not like us!



With all due respect, I think there is a confusion here about the 
word "free" in "free software".


I agree with your first sentence only: they aren't working for us. 
But I don't think it is important for Free Software. It is important for 
their future customers, but not for Free Software because it is not Free 
Software: it's Gratuitous Software - Gratuitous for now.


If I understand correctly, what Gnome people are doing is to try to 
take the market share of Apple and Microsoft with a gratuitous (and 
supposedly higher quality) product. "Gratuitous" but not "libre", far 
from being "libre", as it is becoming more and more clear.


You support this mission they gave to themselve, and this is 
absolutely respectable. But their software is not designed for a free OS 
like Devuan. It has SystemD at its heart; it is not intended to work 
without it, otherwise they would provide themeselve sans-systemd 
compilation options.


By trying to adapt Gnome to Devuan wouldn't you betray not only 
Devuan, but primarily Gnome?


Didier

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Alessandro Selli]

Il 21/06/2017 alle 07:20, KatolaZ ha scritto:
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 11:12:32PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
>>
>> I will reiterate my earlier comment.  For those who believe that Devuan
>> is somehow lacking without GNOME et. al., Debian is a short download
>> away.  I say that not with malice or condescension, but with sincerity
>> that your experience will be better with Debian as the Debian developers
>> have committed the project to support GNOME in full.  Devuan has chosen
>> another path.  Please respect that.
>>
>
> Dear Nate,
>
> I have already said several times that I couldn't care less about
> GNOME or KDE or XFCE 'per se'. However, I believe it is fundamental to
> provide sustainable alternatives (and as many as possible) to the
> "centralisation madness" that has become so popular. That's why,
> ideally, I wouldn't like to leave behind any single piece of software
> that can potentially work without systemd, and that could escape the
> total domination plan that is unfolding in front of our eyes. If we
> keep accepting compromises, and reacting with "well, I don't need
> this, so I don't care", we will be left with basically no toy to play
> with, and in a quite short time.

  IMO, Devuan's priority ought to be providing a viable alternative to the
"total domination" madness.  This entails refusing to go with those pieces
of software that are designed to enforce that domination and centralization.
 Most of the reasons that caused us to forgo systemd apply to Gnome as well.
 It would be nice we had the manpower to fork Gnome and maintain a portable
version that could do without systemd, but I think we cannot do that and
keep evolving a whole systemd-free OS at the same time.  We have easier and
workable alternatives, let's go with them, let's value them.  People who
appreciate a systemd-free OS are likely to appreciate an alternative WM than
Gnome and KDE.  We are in no obligation to support everything that could
possibly run in Devuan.  Being focused to a precise goal, user freedom and
choice, usually involves a degree of sacrifice.  We are not letting users
without a WM, there are many to choose from, we are letting out those that
chose to entangle users inside their walled gardens.  Would someone ask why
does not Devuan have $PACKAGE, we will educate the guy with this
explanation: "We favour freedom and choice over features, we prefer
simplicity and ease of porting to the bells and whistles, this is the reason
we left out those packages that made the opposite choices".  Then the guy
will make their own choice.


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Nate Bargmann]

Not to derail this thread further, but I will say that once I became a
volunteer examiner, after passing the 20 WPM exam in 1992, that watching
most people struggle with the Morse exam caused me to change my mind on
that issue and I supported Restructuring in 2000 and the Morse exam
elimination in 2007.

But, with all due respect, I think the parallels with the present
discussion are minimal.  For one thing, there are how many hundred Linux
distributions, yet there is only one amateur radio service/hobby
recognized worldwide.  Like amateur radio, I'd like to think that Devuan
will be a distribution that respects the intelligence of its user base
and where that respect will lead to more users becoming packagers and
developers.

That was my path with Slackware to Debian to Devuan.  As I've progressed
through each it is the respect of each distribution of my intelligence
and ability to learn (no, it wasn't always easy) that kept me with each
for many years.  I've tried those that presume I'll forever need my hand
held and will never progress beyond a newbie (classic cathedral type
thinking) and they didn't stay on my hard drive.

It's possible that we're talking past each other and I'll go back and
reread some of the posts after things have had a chance to settle a bit
in my head.  It's also hot outside and we're doing wheat harvest here at
the farm so I'm probably reading too fast.  :-D

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[golinux]

Nice story but  . . . removing a constraint is not the same as imposing 
them.


golinux


On 2017-06-21 11:06, Bruce Perens wrote:

About the time I started working on Free Software, I also founded
_No-Code International_ with the goal of eliminating Morse Code exams
as a requirement for the ham radio license, worldwide. This required a
change in international law, the International Telecommunications
Treaty of the ITU, a UN organization, and a corresponding change in
the laws of many nations after that.

The president of TAPR (a digital ham communications organization) said
in a keynote that we were looking at the end of ham radio within 20
years if we could not do something about the declining licensing of
young people. He said that many of us would preside over the demise of
ham radio in our lifetimes, and we sure didn't like that. I was out to
reverse the trend.

People pleaded with me not to "dumb down" Amateur Radio. At ham radio
gatherings, I got cursed out and yelled at. ARRL dispatched an
ex-president of their organization to IARU (International Amateur
Radio Union) meetings with one mission: preserve the Morse Code
requirement.

Our side won. Today there are more hams in the US than ever before in
history, and we are no longer expecting the demise of Ham Radio.

Nobody walks up to me and says that things would have been better had
I not interfered. I do get a lot of handshakes and thank-yous from new
hams. My regional ARRL director asks me to come to the podium to be
introduced at our annual meetings each year. I continue to be invited
to keynote ham conferences.

I do seem to hear a lot of the same sentiment as the pro-code guys in
this discussion. And I know where that goes. We didn't dumb anything
down, we just got people to participate. And everything was better for
it.

Thanks

Bruce

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 8:51 AM,  wrote:


On 2017-06-21 02:02, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 21. Juni 2017 schrieb Bruce Perens:

I agree, that 90% of the people are hapy with limited choice. But

as you
already said, that field is served by apple and M$. No > need for
us to
follow down that road. Salvation is not on to be found on the
highway :-)

What you are saying is that you'd willingly leave the world to
Apple and
Microsoft rather than have more people run Free Software, if it
means you
have to deal with those messy other people. This isn't healthy for
Free
Software. Maybe not even healthy for you.

May you fight for the souls of the unbelievers, you have my
blessing.
But this is not my war.

Nik


 Mine either.  You can't fix 'stupid' with free software. Darwin
always wins.  What does courting 'stupid' with free software
accomplish?  I don't think the answer is as idealistic as some might
think.  If Mac and Windows can control 'stupid', so can free software.
And the egos of those seeking to lure those users?  Well that's
classic psych 101.  What to say, I'm old and cynical . . .

 golinux



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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Mittwoch, 21. Juni 2017 schrieb Bruce Perens:
> Our side won. Today there are more hams in the US than ever before in
> history, and we are no longer expecting the demise of Ham Radio.

One looles, one wins: in Germany the number of Ham operators decreased by 15% 
in the last 8 years.

Nik


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the NSA, CIA ...
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Simon Hobson]

KatolaZ  wrote:

> Beyond the legends, Apple wins because they have always treated their
> users like monkeys to be locked in (something that they have been
> extremely successful at), and have focused on an extremely reduced set
> of supported hardware.

Being a bit pedantic, but for completeness this is a relatively new phenomena - 
I have a feeling that the Steve Jobs that started Apple would have hated what 
he became (and his principles) later on.
In the early days, Apple was about as open as you could get - both hardware and 
software. The Apple II was no closed environment.

In was only in the early 90s with the release of the Mac that we started to see 
the "appliance" approach to systems - but even then it wasn't all that closed. 
It started before the Mac, but the Apple III and LISA didn't really take off.

What really got the bandwagon rolling on the closed ecosystems was when they 
released the portable devices - iPhone and iPad. As I say, I can't help 
thinking that if Steve Jobs of the 70s had been shown the Steve Jobs of the 90s 
and 00s, I have a suspicion he'd have been horrified.



Antony Stone  wrote:

> I've been following this discussion thread with interest - I'm relatively new 
> on this list, and it's been good to see the debate and opinions going back 
> and 
> forth.
> 
> A fairly fundamental question strikes me about the entire topic, though:
> 
> - what is the Devuan project aiming to do, and who for?
> 
> 
> I can think of a few potential answers to that myself, from the simplistic:
> 
> - It's Debian without systemd (as far as that is possible / feasible)

That's basically it. Enough people with the skills and desire wanted "Debian 
without SystemD" (or more correctly, "Debian with choice") that they announced 
they were forking Debian.
Many were sceptical - I'm glad they managed it.

The rest, such as discussions about Gnome, basically stems from "what can we 
realistically manage to de systemd-ise in a maintainable way ?"



Bruce Perens  wrote:

> About the time I started working on Free Software, I also founded No-Code 
> International with the goal of eliminating Morse Code exams as a requirement 
> for the ham radio license, worldwide. This required a change in international 
> law, the International Telecommunications Treaty of the ITU, a UN 
> organization, and a corresponding change in the laws of many nations after 
> that.
> 
> The president of TAPR (a digital ham communications organization) said in a 
> keynote that we were looking at the end of ham radio within 20 years if we 
> could not do something about the declining licensing of young people. He said 
> that many of us would preside over the demise of ham radio in our lifetimes, 
> and we sure didn't like that. I was out to reverse the trend.
> 
> People pleaded with me not to "dumb down" Amateur Radio. At ham radio 
> gatherings, I got cursed out and yelled at. ARRL dispatched an ex-president 
> of their organization to IARU (International Amateur Radio Union) meetings 
> with one mission: preserve the Morse Code requirement.
> 
> Our side won. Today there are more hams in the US than ever before in 
> history, and we are no longer expecting the demise of Ham Radio.

Again for completeness, it is my understanding that "no morse" doesn't apply to 
all levels of license. I'm not a radio amateur myself, but I do have friends 
who are - correct me if I'm wrong.
So yes, you've made it a lot easier to get the basic license, but morse is 
still needed when you progress past some level. As you've observed, that's a 
good thing - the entry barrier is a lot lower, so you get more people joining 
the community. When they are on the bottom rung of the ladder, it's then a lot 
easier to make those steps up to higher levels - but you have to get on the 
bottom rung first. If that bottom rung is too far off the ground, many will 
simply not attempt it, and will never get to see what a view they can get from 
that bit higher up which encourages to them to try and get further up.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:54:48 +0200, Antony wrote in message 
<201706211454.48985.antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it>:

> On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 14:44:34, KatolaZ wrote:
> 
> > Steve Jobs understood that users must be won with eyecandies, and on
> > that side we will never be able to beat Apple. Not because Free
> > Software cannot produce better eyecandies, but because the newly-won
> > users, lured through eyecandies, would flee back to Apple as soon as
> > Apple provides a more appealing set of eyecandies. We should win
> > users on more fundamental aspects, like freedom, but you cannot
> > force anybody to be free against their will. Freedom is a choice,
> > to be made again every single day, and has a cost.
> 
> I've been following this discussion thread with interest - I'm
> relatively new on this list, and it's been good to see the debate and
> opinions going back and forth.
> 
> A fairly fundamental question strikes me about the entire topic,
> though:
> 
>  - what is the Devuan project aiming to do, and who for?
> 
> 
> I can think of a few potential answers to that myself, from the
> simplistic:
> 
>  - It's Debian without systemd (as far as that is possible / feasible)
> 
> to a more philosophical:
> 
>  - it's what we wished Debian had been if they hadn't gone down the
> Gnome / systemd route
> 
> or maybe just a general:
> 
>  - it's a Linux distro for people who know that they don't want
> systemd (which, in my opinion, eliminates a very large proportion of
> "average computer users", who have no interest in what systemd is,
> but want something to click on so they can use this "computer" tool)
> 
> If Devuan is aiming to be "a better Linux distro than any other", has
> anyone actually defined what "better" means and who it applies to?
> 
> 
> I suppose what I'm really getting at is "who are Devuan's intended
> user base (or 'market' if you prefer)?"

..for me, Devuan is a backup plan, I don't trust Ed Snowdon's judgement
on Tor-on-top-of-systemd distros like Tails and Qube-OS, he is after
all still stuck in Moscow, Russia on Putin's mercy.

..and, one of these 2 sides _will_ be proven _wrong_ some time in the
future.

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Antony.
> 


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

About the time I started working on Free Software, I also founded *No-Code
International* with the goal of eliminating Morse Code exams as a
requirement for the ham radio license, worldwide. This required a change in
international law, the International Telecommunications Treaty of the ITU,
a UN organization, and a corresponding change in the laws of many nations
after that.

The president of TAPR (a digital ham communications organization) said in a
keynote that we were looking at the end of ham radio within 20 years if we
could not do something about the declining licensing of young people. He
said that many of us would preside over the demise of ham radio in our
lifetimes, and we sure didn't like that. I was out to reverse the trend.

People pleaded with me not to "dumb down" Amateur Radio. At ham radio
gatherings, I got cursed out and yelled at. ARRL dispatched an ex-president
of their organization to IARU (International Amateur Radio Union) meetings
with one mission: preserve the Morse Code requirement.

Our side won. Today there are more hams in the US than ever before in
history, and we are no longer expecting the demise of Ham Radio.

Nobody walks up to me and says that things would have been better had I not
interfered. I do get a lot of handshakes and thank-yous from new hams. My
regional ARRL director asks me to come to the podium to be introduced at
our annual meetings each year. I continue to be invited to keynote ham
conferences.

I do seem to hear a lot of the same sentiment as the pro-code guys in this
discussion. And I know where that goes. We didn't dumb anything down, we
just got people to participate. And everything was better for it.

Thanks

Bruce

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 8:51 AM,  wrote:

> On 2017-06-21 02:02, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
>
>> Am Mittwoch, 21. Juni 2017 schrieb Bruce Perens:
>>
>>> > I agree, that 90% of the people are hapy with limited choice. But as
>>> you
>>> already said, that field is served by apple and M$. No > need for us to
>>> follow down that road. Salvation is not on to be found on the highway :-)
>>>
>>> What you are saying is that you'd willingly leave the world to Apple and
>>> Microsoft rather than have more people run Free Software, if it means you
>>> have to deal with those messy other people. This isn't healthy for Free
>>> Software. Maybe not even healthy for you.
>>>
>>
>> May you fight for the souls of the unbelievers, you have my blessing.
>> But this is not my war.
>>
>> Nik
>>
>
> Mine either.  You can't fix 'stupid' with free software. Darwin always
> wins.  What does courting 'stupid' with free software accomplish?  I don't
> think the answer is as idealistic as some might think.  If Mac and Windows
> can control 'stupid', so can free software. And the egos of those seeking
> to lure those users?  Well that's classic psych 101.  What to say, I'm old
> and cynical . . .
>
> golinux
>
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[golinux]

On 2017-06-21 02:02, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 21. Juni 2017 schrieb Bruce Perens:

> I agree, that 90% of the people are hapy with limited choice. But as you
already said, that field is served by apple and M$. No > need for us 
to
follow down that road. Salvation is not on to be found on the highway 
:-)


What you are saying is that you'd willingly leave the world to Apple 
and
Microsoft rather than have more people run Free Software, if it means 
you
have to deal with those messy other people. This isn't healthy for 
Free

Software. Maybe not even healthy for you.


May you fight for the souls of the unbelievers, you have my blessing.
But this is not my war.

Nik


Mine either.  You can't fix 'stupid' with free software. Darwin always 
wins.  What does courting 'stupid' with free software accomplish?  I 
don't think the answer is as idealistic as some might think.  If Mac and 
Windows can control 'stupid', so can free software. And the egos of 
those seeking to lure those users?  Well that's classic psych 101.  What 
to say, I'm old and cynical . . .


golinux
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Renaud OLGIATI (ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org):

> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:32:52 -0400
> Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI  wrote:
> 
> > > 08/15 is a common german expression for "plain vanilla".
>  
> > Reference to the 08/15 rifle still in use during the second world
> > war; re-read Hans Hellmut Kirst.
> 
> Sorry, machine gun, not rifle.

Thanks, all.  My to-read queue now has Kirst's Null-acht, fünfzehn
series of novels in it.  For those curious about the references:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Hellmut_Kirst
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_08 

-- 
Rick Moen   "Do not refer to inhabitants of Lesbos as 'Lesbians',
r...@linuxmafia.com even if they did experiment that one time in college."
McQ!  (4x80)  -- @FakeAPStylebook 
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Ron]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:32:52 -0400
Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI  wrote:

> > 08/15 is a common german expression for "plain vanilla".
 
> Reference to the 08/15 rifle still in use during the second world war; 
> re-read Hans Hellmut Kirst.

Sorry, machine gun, not rifle.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
Toddlers are the stormtroopers
   of the Lord of Entropy.

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Ron]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:21:17 +
rain...@wiwi.uni-frankfurt.de wrote:

> 08/15 is a common german expression for "plain vanilla".

Reference to the 08/15 rifle still in use during the second world war; re-read 
Hans Hellmut Kirst.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
Toddlers are the stormtroopers
   of the Lord of Entropy.

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Antony Stone]

On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 15:21:17, rain...@wiwi.uni-frankfurt.de wrote:

> 08/15 is a common german expression for "plain vanilla".

Aha - danke - ich habe seit ungefähr acht Jahre in Köln gewohnt, aber kannte 
diesen Ausdruck so weit nicht...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/08/15_(Redewendung)


Antony.

> Zitat von Antony Stone :
> > On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 15:08:38, Joachim Fahrner wrote:
> >> This will never happen with Gnome on Linux and some 0815 hardware.
> > 
> > Sorry, what's that?  Google doesn't give me any clues...

-- 
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[rainerh]

08/15 is a common german expression for "plain vanilla".

Zitat von Antony Stone :


On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 15:08:38, Joachim Fahrner wrote:


This will never happen with Gnome on Linux and some 0815 hardware.


Sorry, what's that?  Google doesn't give me any clues...


Antony.

--
I want to build a machine that will be proud of me.

 - Danny Hillis, creator of The Connection Machine

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*don't* CC me.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Antony Stone]

On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 15:08:38, Joachim Fahrner wrote:

> This will never happen with Gnome on Linux and some 0815 hardware.

Sorry, what's that?  Google doesn't give me any clues...


Antony.

-- 
I want to build a machine that will be proud of me.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 2017-06-21 14:44, schrieb KatolaZ:

Steve Jobs understood that users must be won with eyecandies, and on
that side we will never be able to beat Apple.


That's very right, but you missed 2 points: Apple makes this eyecandy 
not only in software, but also in hardware. And they made their product 
a status symbol. These 3 points, software, hardware, status symbol made 
Apple success. This will never happen with Gnome on Linux and some 0815 
hardware.


Jochen
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Antony Stone]

On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 14:44:34, KatolaZ wrote:

> Steve Jobs understood that users must be won with eyecandies, and on
> that side we will never be able to beat Apple. Not because Free
> Software cannot produce better eyecandies, but because the newly-won
> users, lured through eyecandies, would flee back to Apple as soon as
> Apple provides a more appealing set of eyecandies. We should win users
> on more fundamental aspects, like freedom, but you cannot force
> anybody to be free against their will. Freedom is a choice, to be made
> again every single day, and has a cost.

I've been following this discussion thread with interest - I'm relatively new 
on this list, and it's been good to see the debate and opinions going back and 
forth.

A fairly fundamental question strikes me about the entire topic, though:

 - what is the Devuan project aiming to do, and who for?


I can think of a few potential answers to that myself, from the simplistic:

 - It's Debian without systemd (as far as that is possible / feasible)

to a more philosophical:

 - it's what we wished Debian had been if they hadn't gone down the Gnome / 
systemd route

or maybe just a general:

 - it's a Linux distro for people who know that they don't want systemd 
(which, in my opinion, eliminates a very large proportion of "average computer 
users", who have no interest in what systemd is, but want something to click 
on so they can use this "computer" tool)

If Devuan is aiming to be "a better Linux distro than any other", has anyone 
actually defined what "better" means and who it applies to?


I suppose what I'm really getting at is "who are Devuan's intended user base 
(or 'market' if you prefer)?"


Thanks,


Antony.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18:07AM -0700, Bruce Perens wrote:
> > If "we" want increase the number of outsiders to be part of the
> ecosystem, then do it on our terms
> 
> :-)
> 
> You can't do it *all *on your terms. Because nobody would come at all. But
> you can have what's important to you.
> 
> Apple actually didn't win because it had a big marketing department and
> psychologists. Just Steve. I worked with Steve for 12 years, and during
> part of that time had an office right across from his at Pixar. Steve
> understood a lot of stuff that would help Free Software. His lessons are
> right there for us to use, if we can only make ourselves listen.
> 

Beyond the legends, Apple wins because they have always treated their
users like monkeys to be locked in (something that they have been
extremely successful at), and have focused on an extremely reduced set
of supported hardware.

GNOME has tried to do the same: treat their users as monkeys, deciding
what they would be enabled to do and what they shouldn't fiddle
with. They have built the myth of the "average desktop user", and they
have decided what such average desktop user should look like and what
she would like to do with their desktop, mostly without asking actual
desktop users if they agreed with that myth. You can't complain if
more than a few people in the community are pissed off by this
attitude: I like to tinker, and I have used GNU/Linux because it
allows you to tinker. If an interface pretends to treat me like a
stupid, that's just not for me.

Steve Jobs understood that users must be won with eyecandies, and on
that side we will never be able to beat Apple. Not because Free
Software cannot produce better eyecandies, but because the newly-won
users, lured through eyecandies, would flee back to Apple as soon as
Apple provides a more appealing set of eyecandies. We should win users
on more fundamental aspects, like freedom, but you cannot force
anybody to be free against their will. Freedom is a choice, to be made
again every single day, and has a cost.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Simon Hobson]

I wrote:

> What you appear to be suggesting is that for the sake of the 95%, the 5% 
> should not be permitted to "fix" things to work as they want them to work. 
> And that if we do customise then we'd be unable to understand that what we 
> are running isn't the standard UI. Yes there will be some people who blindly 
> customise "because they can" without understanding the consequences - but I 
> don't think that's a large enough proportion to justify telling the 5% that 
> they CANNOT use their own systems as they wish.

And I left out ...

And you are also ignoring in your problem statement that just because I may not 
have customised my UI does not mean that it bears much relationship to what 
someone else using that UI is seeing. From what I read, the Gnome team seem to 
be following Microsoft's lead in "changing stuff when they feel like it".
I recall reading an article many years ago, where the author was challenging 
the "we must use Windows because everyone else is and people know how to use 
it" mentality. I pointed out that Windows 95 is very different to Windows 3.1 
(that dates it doesn't it !), and NT is different again, and CE is different 
again, and Mobile is different again. Bringing that up to date, XP is something 
of a culture shock from 98, 7 takes that to a whole new level, and with 8 ... 
well you might as well assume you know nothing (it's actually easier, IMO, to 
use if you don't already know how to use "Windows"). Then 8.1 changed it yet 
again, and 10 changed it yet again.
I see the same problems with the server versions - and (not regularly dealing 
with them) on more than one occasion I've had to ask a colleague how to log out 
of this completely different version of the UI !

Perhaps many of use are falling into the trap of liking what we are used to. 
One thing I can say about Windows (8 and later) from watching non-technical and 
non-experienced users is that it really isn't easier for people to use - 
especially with the many "non-visible until you do something to trigger it" 
features.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Simon Hobson]

Bruce Perens  wrote:

> Apple actually didn't win because it had a big marketing department and 
> psychologists. Just Steve. I worked with Steve for 12 years, and during part 
> of that time had an office right across from his at Pixar. Steve understood a 
> lot of stuff that would help Free Software. His lessons are right there for 
> us to use, if we can only make ourselves listen.

I take that with something of a pinch of salt.
But where I do agree is that Apple (initially at least, in the "post iMac" 
world) was successful because Jonny Ive created things that people liked to 
look at, and (led by SJ) Apple created an OS that people liked to use. It's a 
pity that later on, SJ succumbed to some of the things he fought against during 
the early years (in particular, corporate lock-in).

But referring back to your earlier comment on why the Gnome dev stance is 
"right" - I respectfully disagree. There is nothing wrong with creating a 
consistent default experience - that is a good thing in general. But that does 
not preclude those who know what they are doing from customising that 
experience to their own needs/preferences.

One point which I am painfully aware of as a Mac user - scroll bars.
They used to be clear and intuitive to me. Then they changed the default to be 
very non-intuitive (things scroll the wrong way) - but at least they left a 
setting to "correct" this defect they'd introduced. Then they've gone against 
what SJ used to stand for by making it (in some cases completely, in general, 
the scroll buttons) hidden - why should such an important control now be hidden 
as well as non-intuitive ? I put that one down to the iPad effect - they made 
the same mistake as Microsoft in trying to make users use the same UI for a 
touchscreen as they use with a mouse.
So now I have a feature that irritates me all the time (especially when I'm 
trying to scroll with the fineness that one click of the old scroll button used 
to provide), and I have yet to find a way of "fixing" it.

What you appear to be suggesting is that for the sake of the 95%, the 5% should 
not be permitted to "fix" things to work as they want them to work. And that if 
we do customise then we'd be unable to understand that what we are running 
isn't the standard UI. Yes there will be some people who blindly customise 
"because they can" without understanding the consequences - but I don't think 
that's a large enough proportion to justify telling the 5% that they CANNOT use 
their own systems as they wish.


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

> If "we" want increase the number of outsiders to be part of the
ecosystem, then do it on our terms

:-)

You can't do it *all *on your terms. Because nobody would come at all. But
you can have what's important to you.

Apple actually didn't win because it had a big marketing department and
psychologists. Just Steve. I worked with Steve for 12 years, and during
part of that time had an office right across from his at Pixar. Steve
understood a lot of stuff that would help Free Software. His lessons are
right there for us to use, if we can only make ourselves listen.

Thanks

Bruce

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:10 AM, marc  wrote:

> > One of the greatest problems in Free Software is that, so far, we make it
> > just for us. So, we are the only folks who use it, and we don't get the
> > rest of the world to use Free Software, and we lose out on any number of
> > important things because of that. Important things for the* world,* and
> for
> > Free Software. The rest of the world runs bad software and their security
> > and privacy suck. They buy into DRM. What they do is controlled by big
> > companies, because they have become slaves of their tools. They don't
> know
> > what electronic freedom is. And for us: hardware doesn't support our
> > software. Media doesn't support our software. I could go on...
>
> I disagree with both the motivation you ascribe to the
> gnome developers and the approaches taken to attract outside
> users.
>
> If you want to have everybody use "linux" then this already
> has happened - android is linux, in many regards. And it
> is terrible.
>
> If "we" want increase the number of outsiders to be
> part of the ecosystem, then do it on our terms - the world
> we have allows software to be bent to our will, not the
> other way round. Hence the customisation and theming.
>
> Imagine a corporate run world where people have to
> live in branded houses with 3 choices of interiors.
>
> Just consider ubuntu - the most "outsider-friendly"
> distribution. It has no problem installing nonfree software
> and spying on its users - what prevents it making more
> ethical compromises and turning into android for the PC ?
> And mozilla and the W3C lurching toward adding DRM.
>
> I should write a clearer response to your arguments
> at some point, but the excitement you see in an apple
> store is carefully crafted by psychologists and a
> multimillion marketing budgets. I am sure the people
> picking the endangered wood trim for their yachts are
> also more exited than the guy planting cotton, despite
> the former being worse for the planet.
>
> regards
>
> marc
>
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[marc]

> One of the greatest problems in Free Software is that, so far, we make it
> just for us. So, we are the only folks who use it, and we don't get the
> rest of the world to use Free Software, and we lose out on any number of
> important things because of that. Important things for the* world,* and for
> Free Software. The rest of the world runs bad software and their security
> and privacy suck. They buy into DRM. What they do is controlled by big
> companies, because they have become slaves of their tools. They don't know
> what electronic freedom is. And for us: hardware doesn't support our
> software. Media doesn't support our software. I could go on...

I disagree with both the motivation you ascribe to the
gnome developers and the approaches taken to attract outside
users.

If you want to have everybody use "linux" then this already
has happened - android is linux, in many regards. And it
is terrible.

If "we" want increase the number of outsiders to be
part of the ecosystem, then do it on our terms - the world
we have allows software to be bent to our will, not the
other way round. Hence the customisation and theming.

Imagine a corporate run world where people have to
live in branded houses with 3 choices of interiors.

Just consider ubuntu - the most "outsider-friendly"
distribution. It has no problem installing nonfree software
and spying on its users - what prevents it making more
ethical compromises and turning into android for the PC ?
And mozilla and the W3C lurching toward adding DRM.

I should write a clearer response to your arguments
at some point, but the excitement you see in an apple
store is carefully crafted by psychologists and a
multimillion marketing budgets. I am sure the people
picking the endangered wood trim for their yachts are 
also more exited than the guy planting cotton, despite 
the former being worse for the planet.

regards

marc

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Mittwoch, 21. Juni 2017 schrieb Bruce Perens:
> > I agree, that 90% of the people are hapy with limited choice. But as you
> already said, that field is served by apple and M$. No > need for us to
> follow down that road. Salvation is not on to be found on the highway :-)
> 
> What you are saying is that you'd willingly leave the world to Apple and
> Microsoft rather than have more people run Free Software, if it means you
> have to deal with those messy other people. This isn't healthy for Free
> Software. Maybe not even healthy for you.

May you fight for the souls of the unbelievers, you have my blessing. But this 
is not my war.

Nik

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

> I will reiterate my earlier comment.  For those who believe that Devuan
> is somehow lacking without GNOME et. al., Debian is a short download
> away.

Debian is a dead end. It got too mired in anal-retentive process that
reinforced its inward-facing nature.

Devuan is the one distribution that was brave enough to deal with problems
even if it's difficult and causes messy conflict.

We are brave enough to change a few lines of code if libsystemd changes its
API. Who *really *thinks stuff like that is a challenge?

We should be brave enough to face outward.

Bruce

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 9:12 PM, Nate Bargmann  wrote:

> * On 2017 20 Jun 12:48 -0500, Joachim Fahrner wrote:
>
> > I disagree. This should be a task for gnome developers, if they want to
> be
> > compatible with non-systemd systems (FreeBSD, Devuan...). If they don't,
> > then forget Gnome. ANY developer outside of the gnome team will ALWAYS be
> > behind the actual development, resulting in unstable ports. I would not
> > accept such ugly "third party workarounds".
>
> I agree with Jochen.  Should the GNOME developers determine that they
> would like to reach the largest number of users possible, then they will
> patch their code accordingly.  Until that time, chasing their taillights
> is not a productive endeavor.
>
> Earlier in the thread Bruce brought up sysD APIs.  What are the APIs
> that sysD has implemented that are proving irresistible to other
> developers.  I know there is discussion of logind.  As Bruce asserts,
> any of these could be implemented independently.  That said, we need to
> ask ourselves, would the sysD developers "improve" their API and break
> backward compatibility?  I think if we look at the history of the
> projects mentioned in this thread that the answer is a disheartening,
> yes, yes they would do so.
>
> I will reiterate my earlier comment.  For those who believe that Devuan
> is somehow lacking without GNOME et. al., Debian is a short download
> away.  I say that not with malice or condescension, but with sincerity
> that your experience will be better with Debian as the Debian developers
> have committed the project to support GNOME in full.  Devuan has chosen
> another path.  Please respect that.
>
> - Nate
>
> --
>
> "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
> possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
>
> Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

> I agree, that 90% of the people are hapy with limited choice. But as you
already said, that field is served by apple and M$. No > need for us to
follow down that road. Salvation is not on to be found on the highway :-)

What you are saying is that you'd willingly leave the world to Apple and
Microsoft rather than have more people run Free Software, if it means you
have to deal with those messy other people. This isn't healthy for Free
Software. Maybe not even healthy for you.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Bruce Perens  wrote:

> > I agree, that 90% of the people are hapy with limited choice. But as
> you already said, that field is served by apple and M$. No > need for us to
> follow down that road. Salvation is not on to be found on the highway :-)
>
> What you are saying is that you'd willingly leave the world to Apple and
> Microsoft rather than have more people run Free Software, if it means you
> have to deal with those messy other people. This isn't healthy for Free
> Software. Maybe not even healthy for you.
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 11:45 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> > It's because the community that GNOME is serving is *not you. *And it is
>> > very, very important for Free Software to serve a community that is not
>> > like us!
>> "Why?" and "Could you please tell that the systemd folks?"
>>
>> I agree, that 90% of the people are hapy with limited choice. But as you
>> already said, that field is served by apple and M$. No need for us to
>> follow down that road. Salvation is not on to be found on the highway :-)
>>
>> Nik
>>
>>
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>> with the NSA, CIA ...
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>
>
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Hi!

> It's because the community that GNOME is serving is *not you. *And it is
> very, very important for Free Software to serve a community that is not
> like us!
"Why?" and "Could you please tell that the systemd folks?"

I agree, that 90% of the people are hapy with limited choice. But as you 
already said, that field is served by apple and M$. No need for us to follow 
down that road. Salvation is not on to be found on the highway :-)

Nik


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