Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > Whom shouldn't do that, the distro developer or the distro's admin? The various people in charge of a distribution acting in a suitable collaborative fashion, or other responsible parties acting as decided and arranged by said distro. The question you raise a change of subject to details of distribution administration that Linux distributions themselves can and should work out, and routinely do. I am guessing you merely wish to perpetuate an argument. I prefer not, and have no interest in further discussion on your (changed) topic. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Switching to OpenRC
Sorry for breaking the thread, but I no longer have the original post to reply to. Author: Steve Litt Date: 2018-05-15 16:55 +200 To: dng Subject: Re: [DNG] Switching to OpenRC > On Tue, 15 May 2018 23:39:24 +1000 > Tom wrote: > >> Thanks as always for your insightful information Steve. Much >> appreciated. As someone who knows very little about init systems, >> can you explain what this respawning business is all about? > > Terminology: I call the init system we've used for 30 years "sysvinit". [...] >> I didn’t >> realise the existing sysv-rc > > I assume here you mean sysvinit when you write sysv-rc. I think Tom is not referring to the whole init system, rather to just the rc scripts: Pure SysV Devuan Ascii: [alessandro@wkstn09 ~ ]$ dpkg-query --search /etc/init.d/rc sysv-rc: /etc/init.d/rc [alessandro@wkstn09 ~ ]$ SysV+OpenRC Devuan Ascii: alessandro@kratom:~$ dpkg-query --search /etc/init.d/rc openrc: /etc/init.d/rc alessandro@kratom:~$ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
On Fri, 18 May 2018 at 15:30:27 -0700
Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
>
>> Adam Borowski's point is that if you have a single person
>> administering the distro's infrastructure it does not matter if the
>> infrastructure is an autonomous one or if it's hosted on GitHub:
>
> So, Don't Do That, Then.
Whom shouldn't do that, the distro developer or the distro's admin?
Typically developers and contributors do not have the master repositories'
"keys", so it does not matter if those keys open up a personal repo, or a
GitLab or a GitHub one. If the admin has the only set of keys and suddently
disappears, repos are inaccessible no matter where they are. "Don't Do
That", sure, but people do that, and it's their decision over which you
have no control.
> {headdesk}
>
> I really don't think it's that difficult to understand that avoiding
> outsourcing in no way precludes appropriate fallbacks and measures to
> eliminate SPoFs. I'm frankly quite puzzled that my mentioning (as an
> example) GitLab elicited the comment 'This wouldn't have helped
> [because] you need redundancy' -- when I nowhere suggested eschewing
> redundancy and when that open source project has a mountain of
> documentation on that very subject. And I'm puzzled a second time to
> see you ignore my having just pointed that out, as if I hadn't.
You need redundancy in repository's admins, not on infrastructure.
> And redundant infrastructure (obviously) facilitates redundant
> administration and oversight.
Did you miss in this case "redundant administration" is exactly what is
amiss? Was the main repo on GitLab or WhateverHub nothing would have
changed: develpers whould still be unable to access it.
> Why is this difficult? I don't think it is.
I think you misunderstood what was meant by "redundant".
Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
> Adam Borowski's point is that if you have a single person
> administering the distro's infrastructure it does not matter if the
> infrastructure is an autonomous one or if it's hosted on GitHub:
So, Don't Do That, Then.
{headdesk}
I really don't think it's that difficult to understand that avoiding
outsourcing in no way precludes appropriate fallbacks and measures to
eliminate SPoFs. I'm frankly quite puzzled that my mentioning (as an
example) GitLab elicited the comment 'This wouldn't have helped
[because] you need redundancy' -- when I nowhere suggested eschewing
redundancy and when that open source project has a mountain of
documentation on that very subject. And I'm puzzled a second time to
see you ignore my having just pointed that out, as if I hadn't.
And redundant infrastructure (obviously) facilitates redundant
administration and oversight.
Why is this difficult? I don't think it is.
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Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
On Fri, 18 May 2018 at 13:18:25 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > > [the likes of GitLab:] > >> This wouldn't have helped. A piece of infrastructure that's run by a >> person who gets run over the bus, or throws a tantrum, is inaccessible >> just the same as when hosted on GitHub. >> >> You need redundancy. > > I'm puzzled: What about the likes of GitLab precludes redundancy? In > that particular instance, there are gobs of detailed documention devoted > to that subject, e.g., > https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/administration/high_availability/ > > I take the crucial need for fallbacks and elimination of SPoFs so much for > granted that I seldom see a need to belabour that point. Adam Borowski's point is that if you have a single person administering the distro's infrastructure it does not matter if the infrastructure is an autonomous one or if it's hosted on GitHub: all the distro's developers are still going to be locked out of the repository if that person vanishes. It's a redundancy of people that's needed, not (just) of infrastructure. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): [the likes of GitLab:] > This wouldn't have helped. A piece of infrastructure that's run by a person > who gets run over the bus, or throws a tantrum, is inaccessible just the > same as when hosted on GitHub. > > You need redundancy. I'm puzzled: What about the likes of GitLab precludes redundancy? In that particular instance, there are gobs of detailed documention devoted to that subject, e.g., https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/administration/high_availability/ I take the crucial need for fallbacks and elimination of SPoFs so much for granted that I seldom see a need to belabour that point. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 10:18:24AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > > > I got a pm reply from Gottox, who said that their main problem at the > > moment seems to be re-acquiring access to the github account that > > contains all the packages. > > Maybe, the first step should be to learn the lesson 'Don't outsource > your development architecture to a proprietary sofware company that may > for reasons of its own become a problem to you.' > > There are fully reasonable self-hosted, open source GitHub workalikes, > such as GitLab. Maybe VoidLinux should be setting one up and developing > its own VCS and packaging architecture. This wouldn't have helped. A piece of infrastructure that's run by a person who gets run over the bus, or throws a tantrum, is inaccessible just the same as when hosted on GitHub. You need redundancy. Anyone can go missing with no warning. Heck, I myself got hauled in an ambulance from an airport mere three weeks ago, despite being 100% ok a short while before. Your disk can go bad, that's why you have RAID and backups. Your DNS server can go bad, that's why you have two authoritatives. The person holding your domain contact can go down just the same. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Certified airhead; got the CT scan to prove that! ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > I know it might seem a silly comment, but building and maintaining an > independent development infrastructure actually requires a > considerable amount of energy and time (and money). So I am not > surprised if a distro might decide to cut on the infra and focus only > on the development. Not at all silly. The advantages are obvious and can seem very compelling. After all, nobody said Torvalds made a totally unjustified choice in adopting BitKeeper. A bunch of us merely said he would live to regret it. ;-> ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 10:18:24AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: [cut] > > There are fully reasonable self-hosted, open source GitHub workalikes, > such as GitLab. Maybe VoidLinux should be setting one up and developing > its own VCS and packaging architecture. > I know it might seem a silly comment, but building and maintaining an independent development infrastructure actually requires a considerable amount of energy and time (and money). So I am not surprised if a distro might decide to cut on the infra and focus only on the development. Nevertheless, I am firmly convinced that achieving infrastructural independence (as Devuan has done in these years, thanks to the support of many volunteers and donors) is the only way to guarantee a higher success probability to a project. But for some reason this message seems to be a hard one to convey to users and enthusiasts :-) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > I got a pm reply from Gottox, who said that their main problem at the > moment seems to be re-acquiring access to the github account that > contains all the packages. Maybe, the first step should be to learn the lesson 'Don't outsource your development architecture to a proprietary sofware company that may for reasons of its own become a problem to you.' There are fully reasonable self-hosted, open source GitHub workalikes, such as GitLab. Maybe VoidLinux should be setting one up and developing its own VCS and packaging architecture. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 12:17:58PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 17 May 2018 11:16:50 +0100 > KatolaZ wrote: > > > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/16/contributing_to_keep_small_linux_alive/ > > > > Very interesting piece on the importance of contributing to keep alive > > your favourite distro. Well, Devuan is mentioned in the article among > > the "larger" distros, but the reasoning still applies to us I think. > > Wait a minute. Contributing is the minor message of the referenced > link. The major message is that the Void Project Leader has apparently > disappeared, as described here: > > https://www.voidlinux.eu/news/2018/05/serious-issues.html > > The voidlinux.eu domain is currently at risk, as is Github, and maybe > the Void IRC channels. > > What can we Void users do to help, during these challenging days? > You should probably ask that question to the Void developers :-) We actually reached out on the Void IRC channel a few days ago, saying that we would be happy to help if needed. I got a pm reply from Gottox, who said that their main problem at the moment seems to be re-acquiring access to the github account that contains all the packages. Unfortunately there is little we can do on that front, but I really hope that they will find a way and continue with the development ASAP. Obviously, if anybody knows of ways in which we can help Void, well, just shout. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Is Void OK? Was: Keep it alive
On Thu, 17 May 2018 11:16:50 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/16/contributing_to_keep_small_linux_alive/ > > Very interesting piece on the importance of contributing to keep alive > your favourite distro. Well, Devuan is mentioned in the article among > the "larger" distros, but the reasoning still applies to us I think. Wait a minute. Contributing is the minor message of the referenced link. The major message is that the Void Project Leader has apparently disappeared, as described here: https://www.voidlinux.eu/news/2018/05/serious-issues.html The voidlinux.eu domain is currently at risk, as is Github, and maybe the Void IRC channels. What can we Void users do to help, during these challenging days? SteveT Steve Litt June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] installer on serial console / qemu
On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 10:49:33AM +0300, Lars Noodén wrote: > On 05/17/2018 10:15 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > On 17/05/2018 at 10:05, Lars Noodén wrote: > >> On 05/17/2018 10:37 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: > >>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 05:32:06AM +0300, Lars Noodén wrote: > Typo aside, wouldn't that need to point to the serial console instead > and add, speed, parity, and word size? > > console=ttyS0,19200n8 > >>> > >>> Doesn't this default to 115200n8 these days? > >> > >> The console will run at the speed you set it to run at within the limits > >> of your hardware. Some hardware handles 115200 bps some hardware does > >> not. > > > > What hardware that was produced in the past 20 years does not? > > I have encountered several types of USB-to-Serial adapters which do not. > When I swap them out for a different brand, the same machine tolerates > higher rates. In my experience, cheap Chinese USB-to-Serial stuff often just doesn't work at all at any setting other than 115200. They test only the default and don't bother with anything else. Same with SoCs on the other end of the connection. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Certified airhead; got the CT scan to prove that! ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] installer on serial console / qemu
On 05/17/2018 10:15 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 17/05/2018 at 10:05, Lars Noodén wrote: >> On 05/17/2018 10:37 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: >>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 05:32:06AM +0300, Lars Noodén wrote: Typo aside, wouldn't that need to point to the serial console instead and add, speed, parity, and word size? console=ttyS0,19200n8 >>> >>> Doesn't this default to 115200n8 these days? >> >> The console will run at the speed you set it to run at within the limits >> of your hardware. Some hardware handles 115200 bps some hardware does >> not. > > What hardware that was produced in the past 20 years does not? I have encountered several types of USB-to-Serial adapters which do not. When I swap them out for a different brand, the same machine tolerates higher rates. /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
