Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: GPL version 2 is a bare license. Recind. (Regarding (future) linux Code of Conduct Bannings).

[Dave Turner]

On 20/09/2018 10:13, Ribdro wrote:

On 2018-09-20 03:02, m712 wrote:



On September 20, 2018 12:32:07 AM GMT+03:00, KatolaZ 
 wrote:

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 10:55:38PM +0300, m712 wrote:



On September 19, 2018 8:09:52 PM GMT+03:00, Steve Litt

 wrote:

Long observation of
people resenting CoCs  is they want the right to speak cruelly to
individuals and speak cruelly about groups of people, those groups
having nothing to do with the list's core foundation (Linux sans
systemd, in our case).

Sorry, Steve, that's intellectually dishonest. You're painting a

black-and-white picture of "if people oppose CoCs then they must want
to do things not allowed by the CoCs", however in all instances I have
encountered where the need for a CoC was disputed I have seen the exact
opposite. You do not need a CoC to protect people from bad words, and
people who are contributing nothing but insults are quickly killfiled.
CoCs do nothing but introduce filibustering in between contributors.
The previous "Code of Conflict" was entirely adequate. The creator of
the Contributor Covenant has written a "Post-Meritocracy Manifesto"[1]
which describes meritocracies as "benefit[ing] those with privilege",
aka social justice bullshit. The Linux kernel community /depends/ on a
meritocracy, and this is absurd.

The Linux kernel community, as any coding community, is based on
people that do things together, share common goals and principles,
trust each other, and produce actual code.

Social science is very good for discussing about the plus and minus of
a community, which behaviours are good or bad, which things could be
done in order for the community to become more like this or more like
that. But social science alone does not deliver code. And code is what
your computer needs to run. You can argue as much as you want with
your wifi card, or even yell at it in rage, but that won't convince it
to work without a proper device driver for your OS. That driver needs
a hacker to be written.

I know that what I say is harsh, and that many people might feel
offended by that, but honestly most of the people I have heard talking
about CoCs and post-meritocracy so far are those who have no clue of
how a large (or even a small) piece of software is put together. There
are obviously exceptions, but are not many, unfortunately.

The Linux kernel is available to billions of people only thanks to a
bunch of damn good hackers, who have collectively produced code worth
millions of man-months without the need of a silly CoC or of a
post-meritocracy manifesto. IMHO, the only "privilege" they have
enjoyed is to have produced something useful for a lot of
people. Sadly, most of us can only dream about that.

My2Cents

KatolaZ


Thank you. This is what I was trying to convey, perhaps my lack of 
proficiency in the English language prevented me from doing so (plus 
some leftover outrage perhaps).


    m712


Steve,
It seems you are being less than inclusive to those who have a 
differing opinion on the merits and potential issues of the CoC.


You are in potential violation of the "insulting/derogatory comments, 
and personal or political attacks" line in the CoC.


You have stated "Long observation of people resenting CoCs  is they 
want the right to speak cruelly to individuals and speak cruelly about 
groups of people"


By implication you are saying those people are cruel or at least 
undesirables based only on their opinions or resistance to the CoC not 
any actual action taken or words said by those individuals.


This certainly seems personal and insulting to those who have, what I 
would consider, legitimate concerns.


I would recommend you focus on one of the examples of good behavior 
mentioned in the CoC: "Being respectful of differing viewpoints and 
experiences"


However, I would say you are 100% correct that this is off-topic and 
irrelevant.


-Regards
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Hmmm. Grumpy old man what writes software for a living is glad he is old 
and will be dead soon.


Anybody wanting me to sign up to a Code Of Conduct can go ...well... 
whatever pleases them.


In my paid job I abide by the rules - and bend them mercilessly because 
the eejits what employ me are too stupid to notice. I test software mods 
properly before making them live. Frowned upon for reducing 'productivity'.


I believe the modern term is 'snowflakes'. The modern world is full of 
snowflakes, and what will they do when reality hits? I'll spare you 'In 
my day young person'!


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware

[Dave Turner]

On 01/08/18 19:58, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
With all due respects to Slackware, can't we find anything about 
Devuan to discuss?

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Slackware is an important part of the linux infrastructure, as is gentoo.

They are our co-conspirators in our battle against systemd.

(I find Slackware to be really hard work to get the software I want 
installed the way I want but I don't want it to die)


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Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware

[Dave Turner]

On 01/08/18 14:17, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:36:57 -0700, Bruce wrote in message
:


Pretty funny. He just can't step away from hacking the distribution
long enough to do anything else, but I guess be with his family. I
don't see how he's going to resolve his own issues this way.

..does he _have_ a lawyer?  Find out.  IMNTHO and IME the very first
step to resolve such issues.

One of the books in my library tells you how to build powerful Harley 
engines.


The preface includes the magnificent line "all of this is cheap compared 
to airplane racing and legal fees. Ready?"


So no. I don't think he does have a lawyer.

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] A Devuan kernel?

[Dave Turner]

On 09/07/18 15:59, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

On 07/09/2018 04:17 AM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 04:02:23AM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

On 07/09/2018 03:53 AM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 03:42:40AM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

[cut]




Well some of those kernel experts are saying you need to check 
your kernel.

Also how you respond to this thread speaks volumes.


Please, share some relevant links then, and let us understand what you
are talking about.

If you keep mentioning unspecified "kernel experts" and what they have
allegedly said about the Linux kernel without providing any evidence
for your claims, your posts can be easily misinterpreted by a
distracted reader as FUD.


It's simple, because they can't say any more than Linus can, you are 
not

being helpful and I will now stop replying to your unhelpful post.

What you can do is look for malware, do some investigative research, 
just

educate yourself, what I know is out there for all to read.



So if those "kernel experts" are not saying more than Linus can say,
how comes that you got to know what they haven't dare to say to
anybody else? o_O

I guess we should all educate ourselves in substantiating our claims
with facts, instead of throwing stones at random.

I have had the opportunity to read through several parts of the Linux
kernel in the past, mostly related to networking, scheduling, and
vfs. Once I had to modify the vfs layer to trasparently include
symmetric encryption for all the supported FS. I guess it was 2.4 or
2.6. Another time I developed a full soft real-time stack for ad-hoc
sensor networking (that was definitely 2.6). I also had the
opportunity to develop several custom device drivers, back in the
days, and even to do some reverse-engineering on a few "closed"
drivers.



[PDF]D-Bus in the Kernel - LinuxCon 2014, Tokyo, Japan

https://events.static.linuxfound.org/sites/events/files/slides/linuxconjapan2014.pdf 



GitHub - "dbus-like" code for the Linux kernel
 https://github.com/gregkh/kdbus

OutlawCountry exploit - What this won't tell you is that it was 
created for the CIA and first tested in Fedora, was designed to read 
windows file servers. they got caught.

 https://access.redhat.com/solutions/3099221

Today Linux is pretty much owned by the NSA, including it's 
developers, not many educated eyes out there anymore to spot and 
report malware. Things have changed.



I can't say I have examined all that stuff in detail, but I think I
have a very rough idea of what is going on under the hood. And what I
saw is that the Linux kernel is in general very easy to read and to
understand. Hence my conclusion: if anything wrong was there, we would
most probably know already.



KatolaZ, I came looking for help. Reading a linux kernel requires 
knowledge of software engineering, I don't have that knowledge or 
experience, even if I open kernel source I would have no idea what I 
was looking at.  I just want to know if dbus or any other exploit is 
in the kernel. And/or can we have are own kernel?


Thanks,


What do you mean by 'having our own kernel' ?

Read 'Linux From Scratch' and compile your own kernel - or use gentoo.

Now if you mean our very own kernel with little or nothing from 
kernel.org, then no. Not happening.  It would be 100 times more work 
than creating devuan.


If backdoors in the linux kernel bother you I suggest your try one of 
the BSDs. But to what extent is the irascible Theo de Raadt in the 
pocket of the NSA too?


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] Firefox does analytics in browser

[Dave Turner]

On 04/05/18 22:55, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Fri, 4 May 2018 17:50:50 +0200, Dr. wrote in message
<201805041750.50383.dr.kl...@gmx.at>:


Am Freitag, 4. Mai 2018 schrieb Adam Borowski:

Although it's interesting how they can have the gall to label
something that siphons all of your browsing data as
"privacy-oriented search experience".

LOL ... newspeak everywhere you look: When it's called "expert", you
know it does not know what it's talking about. When it's labeled
"professional", you know all professionals will stay away from it ...


..a proper "professional" "expert" reponse could be run all browsers
exactly once, from throw-away virtual machines, so all web browsers
etc look brand new to trackers, because they always _are_ brand new.

..on killing them, we _may_ (and _not_) wanna haul out the history
and bookmarks into some sort of (local) history log server and
(local) bookmarks (web) server, that e.g. launches new throw-aways
anytime an url is hit.

Happily TinyCore linux exists. It can be run as a clean install every 
time you run it.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Dave Turner]

On 15/03/18 06:44, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting terryc (ter...@woa.com.au):


On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400
Menelaos Maglis  wrote:


I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.
I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of

things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks
like we are stuck with it.

I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without hplip/dbus
these days...

lprng no longer an option?

Interesting fact to know and tell:  HP-branded printers _can_ be sold
off to more-credulous people, and then better, non-HP replacements
acquired.  Many people have done this and lived to tell the tale.


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I know of many printers that don't play nicely with linux, I bought an 
HP because they do work. For future reference and anybody about to buy a 
printer:-


which network printers should we buy?

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Dave Turner]

On 13/03/18 20:09, Menelaos Maglis wrote:

Hi,

I tried to print from a D-Bus free system to a HP DeskJet, WiFi connected, 
printer.
CUPS is installed but complained about missing back-end.

/var/log/cups/error.log:
Stopping job because the scheduler could not execute the backend.
File \"/usr/lib/cups/backend/hp\" not available: No such file or directory

hplip, which I know works with the printer, depends on D-Bus and is currently 
not installed.
What "backend" am I missing?
Can I print without D-Bus?

Regards,
Menelaos

--
​Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.​


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I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.

I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of 
things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks 
like we are stuck with it.


Apart from being unable to print, what happens in your system without 
elogind or the various 'pam' things that need dbus?


What are you using instead of them?

I just might be about to learn something new!

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] Debian Devs using OSx? was Devuan in the German Wikipedia

[Dave Turner]

On 22/12/17 12:31, Brad Campbell wrote:

On 21/12/17 05:13, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:

Steve Litt writes:

Is there evidence somewhere that Debian DDs use OS/x?


It's so common among developers in general that it would be very 
surprising if zero debianites do it.


Macbooks are almost a standard among developers, certainly a majority 
of the last hundred developers I've worked with used macbooks, 
perhaps even more than 90.


I love my Macbook. It is by far the best laptop I've ever owned (and 
I've had a few since my original Bondwell Z80 CP/M unit).


I've also been using a Mac on the desktop exclusively now since 2006.

Nowhere does that imply I'm not running a Debian based derivative on 
them. I just happen to be in love with the hardware.


OSX is neat and all, and I have a soft spot for the old System 7, but 
on the whole Mac hardware runs Linux well enough that I really don't 
have to compromise. I get the OS I want with the hardware I want. Win!


Brad
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As above. But System 9 was very nice, it let you work with USB devices.

The way Apple abandons old hardware like my 2006 iMac is the reason I 
will never buy new apple hardware again.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] eudev in experimental for ascii

[Dave Turner]

On 27/11/17 10:42, Jaromil wrote:

dear DNG readers,

for those who have Devuan ASCII running, we have a package of eudev in
experimental to test and feedback is very welcome, since this is the
candidate package to substitute udev. eudev is maintained upstream by
talented people at Gentoo who definitely deserve our praise.

Beware this package DOES NOT WORK ON Jessie.

For your convenience an ASCII based qcow2 image and vagrant box is
publicly available via the DECODE project (Devuan derivative)
https://files.dyne.org/decode/OS/

So when you are running ASCII already then all you have to do is add the
experimental repository to your apt sources.list with this line

deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan experimental   main

then apt update and

   apt-get -t experimental install eudev

currently, the full version of the package is 3.2.2-devuan2.7

those who were already testing our eudev package need to specify the
full version, since we are switching to correct semantic versioning
and dropping the "220" prefix inherited by bad versioning practices in
udev:

   apt-get -t experimental install eudev=3.2.2-devuan2.7

According to our tests it installs and it boots!

ii  eudev  3.2.2-devuan2.7
ii  libeudev1:amd643.2.2-devuan2.7
ii  libudev1   1:3.2.2-devuan2.7
ii  udev   1:3.2.2-devuan2.7

It goes the other way, too.

   apt-get install udev=232-25+deb9u1 libudev1=232-25+deb9u1

Still reboots. Just a config file remains. Not a problem.

rc  eudev  3.2.2-devuan2.7
ii  libudev1:amd64 232-25+deb9u1
ii  udev   232-25+deb9u1

Among long term considerations on the advantages this move brings us,
the immediate catch is that by installing eudev you will not see
anymore the string "systemd" appear in your process list.

For reports please use this thread (same subject!) or our git issues

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/eudev

Many thanks to all the Devuan team for the work being done towards
ASCII and in particular to Parazyd and Svante Signell for maintaining
the package and giving it the love it deserves.

Wish you all a great week.

ciao
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I have been using the 220-eudev from experimental for awhile on my old 
Intel Apple iMac.


I did the

sudo apt-get -t experimental install eudev=3.2.2-devuan2.7

there was a whinge about eudev being downgraded and then I rebooted.

Everything is still working fine.

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] ..forensics on systemd or journald logs, was: rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Dave Turner]

On 22/11/17 14:22, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:

Aldemir Akpinar writes:
Could you elaborate why are you comparing a relational database 
system where its files must be binary with a logging system where its 
files doesn't need to binary?


You make it sound is if binary files were some sort of horror that 
requires special justification. Please argue the point. Does a text 
format justify x% performance loss? y% increase in line count or code 
complexity? Pick x/y.


Arnt

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My understanding of why text files are better for important system logs 
is this:-


When your server goes down big-style and you get all sorts of file 
corruption you stand a very good chance of working out what happened 
even if your text format log file is a bit mangled.


If your binary format log file is mangled life is considerably more 
difficult - ask those that look after Microsoft Servers. I did, 'that's 
as bad as Windows!' he said.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Dave Turner]

On 19/11/17 20:40, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 19:32:48 +, Dave wrote in message
<755e8783-b399-2941-0d2d-40aac6629...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>:


On 19/11/17 14:10, Jaromil wrote:

hi all

Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?

I got this from rumors in bitcoin's core development, since I'm not
subscribed to Debian lists. The rumor is confirmed by some online
debates on gitlab and stack overflow.

Can someone point out to the decision process for this?

Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the
elected Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and
keep deleting init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even
worst than I thought" and it is "vandalism".

This will certainly keep playing in favor of our fork since
no-nonsense people will come this way, but is very painful to see
Debian's users are being mistreated to this point.

What is happening, and is a pattern, is that parts of Debian that
work well and are widely used by people are being arbitrarily
removed. This doesn't make Debian "universal" anymore, while
betraying once again its mandate of respecting user's freedom.
Noone can trust Debian if it keeps changing things that work for
some, just because of imposing a new thing that others like. Well
beyond and nothwitstanding the qualities of any free and open
source software, Debian is clearly harming another sort of freedom,
the sort that was granted in the free space we all knew rc.local
has always been..

is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?


ciao



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I run debian sid on my laptop. I don't know why it has been done but
if I've understood what you need to know, this is how rc.local is now
at the sharp end:-

/etc/init.d/rc.local

..you have no /etc/rc.local ?


#! /bin/sh
### BEGIN INIT INFO
# Provides:  rc.local
# Required-Start:    $all
# Required-Stop:
# Default-Start: 2 3 4 5
# Default-Stop:
# Short-Description: Run /etc/rc.local if it exist
### END INIT INFO


PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin

. /lib/init/vars.sh
. /lib/lsb/init-functions

do_start() {
      if [ -x /etc/rc.local ]; then
          [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_begin_msg "Running local
boot scripts (/etc/rc.local)"
          /etc/rc.local
          ES=$?
          [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_end_msg $ES
          return $ES
      fi
}

case "$1" in
      start)
      do_start
      ;;
      restart|reload|force-reload)
      echo "Error: argument '$1' not supported" >&2
      exit 3
      ;;
      stop|status)
      # No-op
      exit 0
      ;;
      *)
      echo "Usage: $0 start|stop" >&2
      exit 3
      ;;
esac

+++

/etc/rc.local

#!/bin/sh -e
#
# rc.local
#
# This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
# Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
# value on error.
#
# In order to enable or disable this script just change the execution
# bits.
#
# By default this script does nothing.

exit 0

++

DaveT

..how old is your /etc/init.d/rc.local?
As in: ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii |fmt -tu

..mine are:
root@d44:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii
|fmt -tu
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 820 May 29  2015 /etc/init.d/rc.local
ii initscripts 2.88dsf-59.2+devuan2 amd64 scripts for initializing and
shutting down the system
root@d44:~#
rir:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep ^ii |fmt -tu
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 820 Apr 21  2014 /etc/init.d/rc.local
ii initscripts 2.88dsf-59 armhf scripts for initializing and shutting
down the system
rir:~#
root@raspberrypi:~# ll /etc/init.d/rc.local & -l initscripts |grep
^ii |fmt -tu -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 782 Oct 15
2012 /etc/init.d/rc.local ii initscripts 2.88dsf-41+deb7u1 armhf
scripts for initializing and shutting down the system
root@raspberrypi:~#

..no /etc/rc.local.


I'm confused...
The timestamp on my /etc/init.d/rc.local is 2015-04-06, I keep my laptop 
fully up to date, as in daily updates, and my laptop isn't even that 
old! And that 'll' whatever stuff comes back with command not found - 
even with sudo...

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] rc.local removed from Debian 9, rly?

[Dave Turner]

On 19/11/17 14:10, Jaromil wrote:

hi all

Can anyone clarify how /etc/rc.local is being removed in Debian 9?

I got this from rumors in bitcoin's core development, since I'm not
subscribed to Debian lists. The rumor is confirmed by some online
debates on gitlab and stack overflow.

Can someone point out to the decision process for this?

Following up after the conversation on redis, when we had the elected
Debian leader chiming in here to defend his position and keep deleting
init.d scripts, I still believe this is again "even worst than I
thought" and it is "vandalism".

This will certainly keep playing in favor of our fork since
no-nonsense people will come this way, but is very painful to see
Debian's users are being mistreated to this point.

What is happening, and is a pattern, is that parts of Debian that work
well and are widely used by people are being arbitrarily removed. This
doesn't make Debian "universal" anymore, while betraying once again
its mandate of respecting user's freedom. Noone can trust Debian if it
keeps changing things that work for some, just because of imposing a
new thing that others like. Well beyond and nothwitstanding the
qualities of any free and open source software, Debian is clearly
harming another sort of freedom, the sort that was granted in the free
space we all knew rc.local has always been..

is there any internal discussion about such governance issues in
Debian? is there any hope the current leadership will change and
perhaps repair what this vandalism is breaking?


ciao



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I run debian sid on my laptop. I don't know why it has been done but if 
I've understood what you need to know, this is how rc.local is now at 
the sharp end:-


/etc/init.d/rc.local

#! /bin/sh
### BEGIN INIT INFO
# Provides:  rc.local
# Required-Start:    $all
# Required-Stop:
# Default-Start: 2 3 4 5
# Default-Stop:
# Short-Description: Run /etc/rc.local if it exist
### END INIT INFO


PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin

. /lib/init/vars.sh
. /lib/lsb/init-functions

do_start() {
    if [ -x /etc/rc.local ]; then
        [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_begin_msg "Running local boot 
scripts (/etc/rc.local)"

        /etc/rc.local
        ES=$?
        [ "$VERBOSE" != no ] && log_end_msg $ES
        return $ES
    fi
}

case "$1" in
    start)
    do_start
    ;;
    restart|reload|force-reload)
    echo "Error: argument '$1' not supported" >&2
    exit 3
    ;;
    stop|status)
    # No-op
    exit 0
    ;;
    *)
    echo "Usage: $0 start|stop" >&2
    exit 3
    ;;
esac

+++

/etc/rc.local

#!/bin/sh -e
#
# rc.local
#
# This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.
# Make sure that the script will "exit 0" on success or any other
# value on error.
#
# In order to enable or disable this script just change the execution
# bits.
#
# By default this script does nothing.

exit 0

++

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] New behaviour under Devuan.

[Dave Turner]

On 21/09/17 21:41, Dave Turner wrote:

On 21/09/17 21:33, Rowland Penny wrote:

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 21:18:41 +0100
Arnt Gulbrandsen <a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:


Rowland Penny writes:

This is all down to the sysadmins decision and I thought one of the
main ideas behind Devuan is that nothing is forced on the sysadmin.

Systemd isn't forced on you. LOTS of other things are, starting with
the choice of .deb as package format.

Arnt

Please stop being obtuse, You know very well what I meant. Devuan has
to make some decision for you, but you accept them by accepting
Devuan. What Devuan doesn't force on you are things like, what GUI to
use (or force you to use one), sudo, su or anything like this. More
importantly, it doesn't force systemd on you.

In the post I replied to, Dave was trying to force everybody to NOT use
su, this, in my opinion, is a denial of freedom of choice.

Rowland
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The bottle of wine isn't quite finished yet, but I am not trying to 
force anyone to stop using 'su'.


It IS a really bad idea though, rummage the interweb, somewhere in 
there is a really good write up on why su is bad and sudo is good.


And doas is even better.

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The bottle of wine is finished.

once you have found devuan.xpm  save it in /usr/share/X11/xdm/pixmaps

edit /etc/x11/xdm

somewhere around line 62 it needs to be this:-

#if PLANES >= 8
xlogin*logoFileName: /usr/share/X11/xdm/pixmaps/devuan.xpm
#else
xlogin*logoFileName: /usr/share/X11/xdm/pixmaps/debianbw.xpm
#endif

sent without the devaun.xpm attachment beacuse with the attachment the message 
is considered too large and needs moderation.
Watch this space - it might come through later!

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] New behaviour under Devuan.

[Dave Turner]

On 21/09/17 21:33, Rowland Penny wrote:

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 21:18:41 +0100
Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:


Rowland Penny writes:

This is all down to the sysadmins decision and I thought one of the
main ideas behind Devuan is that nothing is forced on the sysadmin.

Systemd isn't forced on you. LOTS of other things are, starting with
the choice of .deb as package format.

Arnt

Please stop being obtuse, You know very well what I meant. Devuan has
to make some decision for you, but you accept them by accepting
Devuan. What Devuan doesn't force on you are things like, what GUI to
use (or force you to use one), sudo, su or anything like this. More
importantly, it doesn't force systemd on you.

In the post I replied to, Dave was trying to force everybody to NOT use
su, this, in my opinion, is a denial of freedom of choice.

Rowland
  
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The bottle of wine isn't quite finished yet, but I am not trying to 
force anyone to stop using 'su'.


It IS a really bad idea though, rummage the interweb, somewhere in there 
is a really good write up on why su is bad and sudo is good.


And doas is even better.

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] New behaviour under Devuan.

[Dave Turner]

On 21/09/17 16:41, fsmithred wrote:

On 09/21/2017 11:33 AM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 11:12:19AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

Under Debian, I could su to root in a console, and launch gparted from the CLI.

Now, I get:

ron@ron:~/Desktop $ su
Password:
No protocol specified
xmodmap:  unable to open display ':0.0'
No protocol specified
xmodmap:  unable to open display ':0.0'
No protocol specified
xmodmap:  unable to open display ':0.0'
No protocol specified
xmodmap:  unable to open display ':0.0'
No protocol specified
xmodmap:  unable to open display ':0.0'
No protocol specified
xmodmap:  unable to open display ':0.0'

root@ron:/home/ron/Desktop # gparted
No protocol specified

(gpartedbin:4721): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display: :0.0

What did I do wrong ?

And by the way, logging in under xdm (?) I had a shock when the Debian name and 
loogo appeared on the login screen...
  

you probably just need to `xhost +` from the "regular" user account
before su-ing. By default the current display is not accessible by any
user except the one who launched it. root is not an exception.

My2Cents

KatolaZ




I do it all the time without ever using xhost. su to root (not 'su -') and
you should be able to launch graphical apps. I use gparted a lot. I assume
that you mean a console/terminal inside an X-session.

BTW, it's pretty easy to change the logo in xdm, and I'll tell you if I
can remember where the file is. That install is gone already.

I didn't figure out how to change the words. Maybe it's another graphic. I
was looking for text. Anyway, check out the .xpm files in /etc/X11/xpm (I
think it's there and not /usr/share).

fsmithred


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A rummage around the interweb will find the devuan.xpm file you need, 
then a simple edit and job done. I did it on my iMac. Details to follow 
when I've finished my bottle of wine.


Also, 'su' is just wrong, don't use it, always use sudo, and if you can 
find a decent .deb of OpenBSD 'doas' ported to linux use that, it is 
even better!


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] Debian drops Qt4

[Dave Turner]

On 21/09/17 15:03, Hendrik Boom wrote:

Because of discussions here about suitable open-source GUIs, I'm
pointing out that Qt4 is being dropped by Debian.  So anyone wanting
Qt will have to use Qt5.  I don't know what the portability or upgrade
implications are.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2017/08/msg6.html

-- hendrik

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Thanks for the info.

My laptop runs debian sid, I had half a dozen qt4 things installed 
including dependencies for 'jack' audio. I also have jackd2, a quick 
check and qt4 is now gone from my laptop. And it all still works!


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] Another problem with systemd and I will switch to devuan

[Dave Turner]

On 17/09/17 07:50, KatolaZ wrote:

On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 07:49:28AM +0200, arne wrote:

Another problem with systemd and I will switch to devuan.

I had a fierce struggle with rc.local and systemd.
Took me 24 hours,
lots of coffee and pizza, (to abandon rc.local for most part in the end)

I am feeling a pain in my heart if I have to leave debian.

It was my companion for 10 years.


Hi Arne,

here you have people who had been with Debian for much more than 10
years, and all have switched to Devuan without much pain, and surely
without regrets.

So maybe you don't need to wait until the next problem with systemd
arises. Just take a deep breath, close your eyes, and jump ;)


Now the question: I run debian stretch.
is it hard to switch to devuan or is a new install preferred?


"upgrading" from Debian to Devuan is officially supported so far only
for Jessie (i.e., from Debian woody/jessie to Devuan Jessie). In
theory, it shouldn't be too difficult to convert a Debian stretch into
a Devuan ASCII, but I have not tried it so far. Maybe somebody else
has good news on that front.

It is quite possible that an official safe upgrade path will be
provided also between Debian stretch and Devuan ASCII, as ASCII
becomes stable.

HND

KatolaZ



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I use debian stretch at work. It is thoroughly polluted by systemd so 
removing it will be extremely difficult.


The upgrade from debian wheezy to devuan is easy because although 
systemd is present in wheezy you can easily remove it.


In your case - do a fresh install.

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] ctwm

[Dave Turner]

On 29/08/17 13:26, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 09:14:11PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

I tried ctwm.

The package manager installs it like a breeze, but in the tradition of
Debian packages, it doesn't work out of the box.

Instead of complaining here, it'd be more productive to talk to the
package's maintainer:

 Debian QA Group 

Oh, wait -- the maintainer is you!  (And also your cat and your mother in
law.).  Thus, please submit patches.  The package is orphaned, so you are
allowed to make any sane changes whatsoever (as a non-DD, "sane" is defined
as "whatever passes uploader's review").  Drive-by changes are fine.

You may submit the patches to Devuan or Debian, but as this matter is not
related to systemd, the latter would be greatly better: (still) 100-1000
times more users, packages migrate to Devuan anyway.  Thus, it'd be nice if
you could send your proposed changes for review to anyone who can upload to
Debian (like me for example).


First problem: The Debian package forgets to install
/usr/share/xsessions/ctwm.desktop, so pressing F1 on the slim login screen
doesn't find it.  You can't get to ctwmrc using normal methods.  Oops.

So create the following /usr/share/xsessions/ctwm.desktop :

[snip]

This looks like an obvious, undebatably good change.


If you only use a mouse...

Trouble is, as it ships from the factory, ctwm is extremely keyboarder
hostile. Try it and see: No matter what you do with your keyboard, you
need to grab your mouse to fix the focus. Given that most lightweight
WMDE users are keyboardists, this is a problem.

Or not.

Edit ~/.ctwmrc after copying it elsewhere, and add the following lines
below the list of simple settings like "NoGrabServer" or "GrabServer",
"DecorateTransients", the font assignments, etc, add the following
lines:

==
UsePPosition "on"   # Help kbd instantiated windows get focus
RandomPlacement "on"# Help kbd instantiated windows get focus
AutoFocusToTransients   # Help kbd instantiated windows get focus
SaveWorkspaceFocus  # Obviously workspace focus should be retained
WindowRing  # Enable Alt+Tab type window circulation
WarpRingOnScreen# Enable Alt+Tab type window circulation
==

I don't know ctwm (and was greatly relieved as a newbie that I can replace
that twm thingy with WindowMaker) -- thus, in your opinion, is what you
propose:
ᴀ) a default good for everyone
ʙ) personal preference of a random (if well-meaning) guy?

If ᴀ, then what about making it work better out of the box?


Now go below all the Button assignments as well as any hotkey
assignments, and add the following:

==
# HOTKEY DMENU Ctrl+Shift+;
"semicolon" = s | c  : all  : f.exec "/home/myuid/bin/dmenu_litt.sh"

# HOTKEY defops MENU, HIGHEST LEVEL CTWM MENU
"comma" = s | c  : all  : f.menu "defops"

# HOTKEY LIST OF ALL MENUS ON ALL WORKSPACES
"period" = s | c  : all  : f.menu "TwmAllWindows"

# NOTE! ALT+TAB CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK.
# USE Ctrl+Shift+h and Ctrl+Shift+l instead.
"h" = s | c : all : f.warpring "prev"   # HOTKEY REV THIS WKSPC WINS
"l" = s | c : all : f.warpring "next"   # HOTKEY FWD THIS WKSPC WINS

"u" = s | c : all : f.menu "TwmWindows" # HOTKEY THIS WKSPACE WIN LIST
==

I'd put this into /usr/share/doc/ctwm/examples/ -- unless you believe it'd
be reasonable to override the current/old upstream default with what you
propose.


I don't know how resource-conserving ctwm is compared to twm, Openbox
and its other competitors, but I believe ctwm can be crafted into a
demu-equipped, keyboarder high productivity machine just like Openbox
and all the others, while still respecting your machine's resources and
not spending them profligately.

I'd dismiss this particular argument.  We're not talking about a WM which
is so bloated to require the machine to have whole 4MB ram and thus needs to
be trimmed down to run on 2MB.  The crummiest monitor-capable SoC you can
buy today has ~1GB ram, with anything real having 2GB in the low-end ARM
world and far more everywhere else.

Only a few WMs can be still called "bloated": GNOME (needs a mid-end GPU to
even run, or slooow software emulation otherwise), Cinnamon (uses GNOME's
backend), maybe some configurations of KDE.

Choice between everything else should be a matter of ergonomics only: you
use what is most comfortable for you; micromanaging the last bit of resource
usage is counterproductive -- it'd be like writing an editor in assembly.


But, returning to the original issue: you can't claim that the maintainer
does a bad job if there's no maintainer.  There's also no one to step in
your way if you'd want to make improvements.


Meow!


I wondered why ctwm in debian was 10 years out of date!

I've never built a proper deb before, and I didn't do a proper job this 
time, 

Re: [DNG] ctwm

[Dave Turner]

On 28/08/17 02:14, Steve Litt wrote:

Hi all,

Dave Turner mentioned ctwm in the "devuan ascii - how much of systemd is
still in there?  UPDATE" thread, and because I've failed at every
attempt to use twm, I tried ctwm.

The package manager installs it like a breeze, but in the tradition of
Debian packages, it doesn't work out of the box. First problem: The
Debian package forgets to install /usr/share/xsessions/ctwm.desktop, so
pressing F1 on the slim login screen doesn't find it. You can't get to
ctwmrc using normal methods. Oops.

So create the following /usr/share/xsessions/ctwm.desktop :

==
## /etc/dm/Sessions/ctwm.desktop ##

[Desktop Entry]
Name=ctwm
Comment=ctwm
Exec=/usr/bin/ctwm
TryExec=/usr/bin/ctwm
Terminal=True
Type=Application
==

Don't ask me what all that gibberish means: I just copied it from
lxde.desktop and changed the obvious.

Now slim sees and delivers ctwm, so you have a fully functional ctwm,
which is one of the most configurable WMDEs around (I have a temporary
moritorium on the word GOSFUI).

Things look up: You can F1 through slim to get to ctwm, but The menus
from clicking the desktop don't work. You navigate to the "Debian"
selection, release the left mouse button, and nothing happens. Not to
worry, this is a ctwm-ism: When navigating to a an item, you must move
the mouse pointer to the right in order to sub-navigate. That little
tidbit should be in the README, but now you know. You have a great and
functional WMDE.

Now that you can navigate the menu system, you notice that dragging all
the way right on the "Exit" choice gives you the choice of "No, restart
ctwm" or "Yes, really quit". Choosing the former updates your running
ctwm to the current ~/.ctwmrc, thereby removing the necessity to go
all the way back to slim's mandatory F1 every time you try a new
config element. From now on I'll use the phrase "restart twm" for the
procedure consisting of "leftclick desktop, navigate to Exit, drag right
to the little square, choose "No, restart ctwm".

So now you can use the menus. But, oops, you have no way to change your
ctwm configuration, because you have no ~/.ctwmrc file. You'll soon fix
that:

cp  /etc/X11/ctwm/system.ctwmrc   ~/.ctwmrc

Restart ctwm, and cool, you have a perfectly running ctwm.

If you only use a mouse...

Trouble is, as it ships from the factory, ctwm is extremely keyboarder
hostile. Try it and see: No matter what you do with your keyboard, you
need to grab your mouse to fix the focus. Given that most lightweight
WMDE users are keyboardists, this is a problem.

Or not.

Edit ~/.ctwmrc after copying it elsewhere, and add the following lines
below the list of simple settings like "NoGrabServer" or "GrabServer",
"DecorateTransients", the font assignments, etc, add the following
lines:

==
UsePPosition "on"   # Help kbd instantiated windows get focus
RandomPlacement "on"# Help kbd instantiated windows get focus
AutoFocusToTransients   # Help kbd instantiated windows get focus
SaveWorkspaceFocus  # Obviously workspace focus should be retained
WindowRing  # Enable Alt+Tab type window circulation
WarpRingOnScreen# Enable Alt+Tab type window circulation
==

Now go below all the Button assignments as well as any hotkey
assignments, and add the following:

==
# HOTKEY DMENU Ctrl+Shift+;
"semicolon" = s | c  : all  : f.exec "/home/myuid/bin/dmenu_litt.sh"

# HOTKEY defops MENU, HIGHEST LEVEL CTWM MENU
"comma" = s | c  : all  : f.menu "defops"

# HOTKEY LIST OF ALL MENUS ON ALL WORKSPACES
"period" = s | c  : all  : f.menu "TwmAllWindows"

# NOTE! ALT+TAB CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK.
# USE Ctrl+Shift+h and Ctrl+Shift+l instead.
"h" = s | c : all : f.warpring "prev"   # HOTKEY REV THIS WKSPC WINS
"l" = s | c : all : f.warpring "next"   # HOTKEY FWD THIS WKSPC WINS

"u" = s | c : all : f.menu "TwmWindows" # HOTKEY THIS WKSPACE WIN LIST
==

In the preceding, dmenu_litt.sh is simply a shellscript that calls
dmenu_run in a way that menus vertically instead of horizontally, and
displays a readable size font in good contrast colors. See the dmenu
man page for the proper arguments to dmenu_run, which simply passes
command line arguments to dmenu.

Restart ctwm and you have a dmenu-enabled, Shift+Ctrl+h and
Shift+Ctrl+l cycling productivity machine.

There are other things you can do to make it more keyboarder friendly.
Find the name of the context for being in a menu, and in that context
alone, hotkey vim keys j,k,h and l t

Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Dave Turner]

On 28/08/17 01:03, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 06:51:24 +0100
Dave Turner <dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk> wrote:


I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)

Very nice!


I installed eudev

Did you install eudev simply by apt-get install udev? Were there any
other steps?


and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

This means that udev won't run on boot. Did /etc/init.d/eudev exist, or
did you just not have a daemon?

[snip]


For sound I installed flac, alsa-utils, and the ncurses media player
moc. alsa-utils includes alsa-mixer and that let me un-mute the
sound. And it works! I think the docs on alsa and sound on linux have
become divorced from reality over  the years, I know how to read and
follow instructions, I should have been able to do this years ago. I
had to do it by trial and error!

Dave, a cool move on your part would be to document exactly how you did
the setup described in the preceding paragraph. Until Devuan gets their
documentation act together, I'd suggest publishing your documentation
on a website controlled by you, so that it's permanent. A whole heck of
a lot of people want to have a simple, no-nonsense sound setup like you
describe. I'm one of them.

SteveT
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I have written up most of what I have done. I was thinking that 
dev1galaxy.org was the best place to put it.


The web-browser on my iMac is dillo which is fast and light and nice to 
use for many things - and utterly useless for other things so Palemoon 
will be the next install, followed by VLC so I can watch DVDs again. I 
fully expect my system will get polluted by systemd and probably 
pulseaudio too, we'll see!


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Dave Turner]

On 26/08/17 09:05, Ralph Ronnquist wrote:



Svante Signell wrote on 26/08/17 16:57:

On Sat, 2017-08-26 at 06:51 +0100, Dave Turner wrote:


I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)
I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

...

udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place
in /etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev
makes use of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system
again by deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would
be nice.


Hi David,

You can check the contents of eudev yourself:
dpkg -L eudev
gives you the list of installed files.


It's also worth to note that many files in /lib/udev/rules.d belong to 
various other packages; they add their own configuration to udev in 
support of hotplugging their things. I think you do best in leaving 
them intact for eudev to use. Files in /etc/udev/rules.d are 
notionally your sysadmin's poetry, with site local configuration, and 
likewise, should probably be kept as well.


Ralph.
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OK, dpkg -L eudev gives a long list of files mainly in /lib/udev/, I'll 
be leaving those alone then...


Once bitten twice shy, after the 1st breakage I copied everything from 
/etc and /lib and /usr that I thought I might need into ~/SAFE/ . 
Happily I didn't need it.


Thanks for the help, in the next week or so I will be installing X11 and 
polluting the iMac with libsystemd0.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Dave Turner]

On 19/08/17 16:46, Dave Turner wrote:

On 18/08/17 18:45, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:36:12 +0100
Dave Turner <dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk> wrote:


On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:

deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories

With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and removed
/etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but no
network connection!

Hi Dave,

I think you have /etc/init.d/networking or something like that. This
shellscript assumes a certain name for your network interface. Your
move to eudev might have changed that name.

Perform the following command to learn interface names:

ip link

Strongarm your network name(s) into /etc/init.d/networking as needed.

If you really, really can't get /etc/init.d/networking to do the job,
here's a shellscript to bring up a wired interface to a defined IP:

#!/bin/bash
ip link set dev enp3s0 down
ip addr add 192.168.100.2/24 dev enp3s0
ip addr add 192.168.100.102/24 dev enp3s0
ip link set dev enp3s0 up
ip route add default via 192.168.100.96

Assuming your interface is named enp3s0 (and rename it if not), the
preceding script will work on any distro.

Somewhere in the past I posted, on this list, a shellscript to deduce
the name of the wired interface, and jam it into an environment
variable so it could be passed to scripts like the preceding.

If you want to boot up wifi, you need your boot to early run, *with
respawn*, wpa_supplicant, as aa daemon. This means for sysvinit put it
in /etc/inittab, not in /etc/init.d/S0whateverwpa_supplicant.

If, like me, you're willing to be disloyal to your distro, you can
start up your network trivially.


SteveT

Steve Litt
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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I'll have a go at your and Svante's suggestions probably on Sunday 
evening. Saturday and Sunday I will be putting my Harley back together 
and going for a ride.


DaveT

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I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no 
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)


I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

Deleted /etc/systemd/         and rebooted, everything still works.

Deleted /lib/systemd/         and rebooted, everything still works.
Deleted /var/lib/systemd/     and rebooted, everything still works.
Deleted /usr/lib/systemd/     and rebooted, everything still works.

udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place in 
/etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev makes use 
of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system again by 
deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would be nice.


For sound I installed flac, alsa-utils, and the ncurses media player 
moc. alsa-utils includes alsa-mixer and that let me un-mute the sound. 
And it works! I think the docs on alsa and sound on linux have become 
divorced from reality over  the years, I know how to read and follow 
instructions, I should have been able to do this years ago. I had to do 
it by trial and error!


To confirm: the 'sound' section in aptitude shows only alsa-utils and 
moc; flac is in the 'libs' section as libflac8.


I have had a good look at what xserver-xorg-core pulls in. libsystemd0 
gets pulled in. Oh well, I'll just have to put up with it won't I!


I can cope with twm and I really like ctwm so I was shocked when I 
realised that the version of ctwm in debian is 10 years old! Version 
4.0.1 was released by the ctwm people in June this year. I had to 
download the code and compile it. I used 'checkinstall' to create the 
package and it works too! Obviously that was a few weeks and a couple of 
rebuilds ago.


DaveT
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Re: [DNG] noatime by default

[Dave Turner]

On 24/08/17 00:03, Adam Borowski wrote:

Hi!
I'd like to recommend another improvement: let's make the installer default
to noatime for fstab it creates.

In the past, atime updates used to ruin performance.  Thanks to work by Ted
Ts'o and others, that penalty has been greatly reduced (but not eliminated)
by two options:
* relatime (on by default): atime is not updated unless atime<=mtime or
   atimehttps://github.com/neomutt/neomutt/commit/816095bfdb72caafd8845e8fb28cbc8c6afc114f
Because of stretch's freeze, I did not manage to write+push upstream patches
for any client other than mutt, I guess it's time to resume.

Obviously, an admin who thinks he actually has an use for atime is free to
edit fstab.

So, what would you folks say about defaulting to noatime?


Meow!


I always set noatime to 'off' when I do an install.

I agree it should be the default, anybody who wants atime to be 'on' 
knows what they are doing and why.


I always use non-graphical expert install, I would expect the noatime 
box to be ticked for me by the time I get to that screen.


I always install and use xterm.

DaveT

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[DNG] What does Linus do?

[Dave Turner]

There's a lot of heavy discussion going on in

'Proposed change to ascii' and 'an alternative to renaming'

But what does Linus do? How does he think this should play out?

I am a big fan of 'going with the flow' apart from when it is a really 
bad idea such as systemd.


For the rest, I sold my car last year, and yes, it had a starting handle.

Two of my four motorcycles still have kickstarts, but the other two can 
be converted to kickstart if I want to. All of them have 2 cylinders 
even though 'essence of motorcycling' is one cylinder.


In view of the above, perhaps I should say I WAS a big fan of going with 
the flow when the going was good!


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 18/08/17 18:45, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:36:12 +0100
Dave Turner <dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk> wrote:


On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:

deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories

With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and removed
/etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but no
network connection!

Hi Dave,

I think you have /etc/init.d/networking or something like that. This
shellscript assumes a certain name for your network interface. Your
move to eudev might have changed that name.

Perform the following command to learn interface names:

ip link

Strongarm your network name(s) into /etc/init.d/networking as needed.

If you really, really can't get /etc/init.d/networking to do the job,
here's a shellscript to bring up a wired interface to a defined IP:

#!/bin/bash
ip link set dev enp3s0 down
ip addr add 192.168.100.2/24 dev enp3s0
ip addr add 192.168.100.102/24 dev enp3s0
ip link set dev enp3s0 up
ip route add default via 192.168.100.96

Assuming your interface is named enp3s0 (and rename it if not), the
preceding script will work on any distro.

Somewhere in the past I posted, on this list, a shellscript to deduce
the name of the wired interface, and jam it into an environment
variable so it could be passed to scripts like the preceding.

If you want to boot up wifi, you need your boot to early run, *with
respawn*, wpa_supplicant, as aa daemon. This means for sysvinit put it
in /etc/inittab, not in /etc/init.d/S0whateverwpa_supplicant.

If, like me, you're willing to be disloyal to your distro, you can
start up your network trivially.


SteveT

Steve Litt
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I'll have a go at your and Svante's suggestions probably on Sunday 
evening. Saturday and Sunday I will be putting my Harley back together 
and going for a ride.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:

deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories


With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and removed 
/etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but no 
network connection! I fear I will have to go through /etc/init.d and 
what have you and actually read the comments in the scripts!


I have an old 64bit Acer dekstop that I will use to continue this 
investigation. I would like to watch some DVDs on my iMac so I will put 
it back to a fully systemd free debian wheezy 7.11 and see if I can use 
apulse to get the audio working instead of having to use pulseaudio.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 22:34, Dave Turner wrote:

On 17/08/17 21:13, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:

Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that
dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.

Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and 
the

systemd purge...

(hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall. Wheezy->jessie
upgrades of these two are a mess.

I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we 
come...



Meow!


231 packages installed in the most minimal of installations possible.

I have no need of apache, I will need samba client to be able to get 
at my NAS4Free media server.


Ascii with eudev is working, but now I need to make it do something 
useful...


grepping systemd turns up far too many files that mention systemd, 
some just doc files, but I want them gone.


Forget stretch->buster, my laptop runs sid. Just do it! The 'stronger 
addition to the mix' is The Residents streamed from my NAS4Free server 
through my Sonos system into a pair of BBC LS5/8 studio monitors. 
Loud! Sadly the bottle of wine is now empty.


DaveT


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I deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories - I'm running eudev 
right? What could possibly go wrong? Still works, but whatever it is 
that sets the font size is now broken, the font is huge! I suppose 
'something' now thinks the display is an old 640 x 380.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 21:13, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:

Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that
dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.

Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the
systemd purge...

(hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall.  Wheezy->jessie
upgrades of these two are a mess.

I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we come...


Meow!


231 packages installed in the most minimal of installations possible.

I have no need of apache, I will need samba client to be able to get at 
my NAS4Free media server.


Ascii with eudev is working, but now I need to make it do something 
useful...


grepping systemd turns up far too many files that mention systemd, some 
just doc files, but I want them gone.


Forget stretch->buster, my laptop runs sid. Just do it! The 'stronger 
addition to the mix' is The Residents streamed from my NAS4Free server 
through my Sonos system into a pair of BBC LS5/8 studio monitors. Loud! 
Sadly the bottle of wine is now empty.


DaveT


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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 09:16, Harald Arnesen wrote:

Rick Moen [2017-08-17 00:55]:


So, here's a point:  If you have a Linux system with Thunar (graphical
file manager) and the xfwm4 window manager, I'm betting that those _are_
99% of what you think of as 'XFCE4'.

Not quite.


I'm betting that you don't actually have a specific desire and need
(also) for xfdashboard, Xftasklets, Xfce4 Screenshooter, Xfce4
Dictionary, Xfburn, Ristretto, XFCE Terminal, Parole media player,
Midori Web browser, Eatmonkey download manager,
notification-daemon-xfce, the Xfce4 Volstatus system tray notification
icon, Xfce4 Power Manager, Gigolo GIO/GVfs front-end, a couple of dozen
Xfce4 panel plugins, and around a dozen Thunar plugins,  You might not
even be totally in love with the Xfce4 panel, _or_ even (gasp!) prefer a
different panel not normally bundled as part of the XFCE4 metapackage.

I use several of these.


_Or_ you might prefer, as many XFCE4 users do, the window manager named
'awesome' rather than xfwm4.

No, not me. Tried it, didn't like it much.


And if you started out with less than the entire marching band of those
things (which with artwork and bindings are the ensemble known as
'XFCE4') and at any point you decided you wanted any of them or all of
them, you can trivially add those with a single apt-get command.

So, why do you need to start with the whole marching band?  And,
moreover, install a 'task' metapackage whose presence requires
installation, at all times, of all of the constituent packages
thereafter.

If I install the whole of XFCE4, I only have to remember the names of a
couple of other packages to get the screen to look the way I want.


'A la carte' is not a swear word, you know.  But somehow, most of an
entire generation of Linux newcomers have been conned into thinking it
is.  My point is merely that I think this tunnel-vision is unfortunate.

You have several good points, and I may try some of your ideas, but it
all comes down to choice. I think the reason I prefer a simple,
ready-made desktop is that it's one of the least important things on my
computer. I have other things to fiddle with, so I want the user
interface to "just work" - and for me, XFCE4 does.


Xfce4 is OK, I use debian squeezy linux at work and use Xfce4 because it 
is friendly and useful and light; at home I am a luddite geek and keep 
things simple...


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 08:46, Joel Roth wrote:

Dave Turner wrote:

I have boot from a debian 6 squeeze CD, anything later refuses to boot the
iMac. (Fedora has failed since fedora 13, Tinycore linux boots, Slackware
boots) Then I do a dist-upgrade to wheezy, that takes it straight to 7.11
which has the beginnings of systemd in it.

I used aptitude to get rid of anything with systemd in the name, then I
deleted everything systemd from /lib/systemd and etc/systemd.

There are units for starting services in /lib/systemd, but
go unused unless you have systemd installed. At least one
proof-of-concept init system, a wrapper for runit, aims at
supporting the systemd service units.

https://github.com/the-eater/shinit

The config files in /etc/systemd are equally harmless.
Probably any app that would look in /etc/systemd will be
declared with a systemd dependency.


After a reboot
and purge I was down to 174 packages and a working but very minimal terminal
system. No sound no nothing, reminds me of playing Moonlander on a 300-baud
terminal into the mainframe all those years ago...

Then I did the devuan-jessie dist-upgrade. That pulled in systemd-udevd so I
repeated what I did with wheezy - got rid of all of it!  And broke it again!
The screen font stays enormous and the keyboard doesn't work so I can't
login.

I suppose eudev is the next step once I have re-installed squeeze and
wheezy!

DaveT

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Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that 
dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.


Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the 
systemd purge...


(hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

DaveT

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[DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

I'm running a very minimal install of devuan ascii on my old Apple iMac.

Using xdm to login, twm as the window manager, and xfe for file 
management. Then dillo and Firefox for web-browsing.


Aptitude shows that libsystemd0 is still there but pulseaudio etc depend 
on it and I have never been able to get sound working on the iMac using 
any linux distro unless pulseaudio was installed. Aptitude shows that 
nothing else with systemd in the name is installed, and as far as I am 
aware libsystemd0 is there to fool those applications that need systemd 
into thinking it is there.


I was having a rummage around in the /lib64 directory and there is a lot 
of systemd stuff in there. Interesting, I'm not running systemd so I can 
get rid of all that!


Bad move. All the X11 stuff stopped working, the terminal font stays at 
an enormous size instead of switching to a nice 10point or whatever size 
font during boot-up. And I can't even mount a usb drive the old way 
doing sudo mount whatever.


Never mind, I can re-install. But all those systemd library files worry me.

Are they caused by allowing pulseaudio on there? If so, I'll have to try 
using apulse or whatever to get sound working.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] Switching

[Dave Turner]

On 05/08/17 10:39, Joachim Fahrner wrote:

Am 2017-08-05 11:28, schrieb Weaver:


Currently running Debian SID, with separate /, swap, and /home
partitions.
I don't suppose switching is as easy as simply replacing the / partition
with a new install, preserving the old data?


Yes it is easy. Choose the same partition layout in the installer, but 
only format the root partition. Disable formatting on the home 
partition. After installation create the users as before, and all 
should work again as before.


Jochen
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Changing from debian sid to devuan jessie or ascii might leave you with 
one or two 'interesting' problems to fix. Most packages in debian sid 
are at a higher version number than packages in devuan jessie or ascii. 
The .config and other setup files you have in ~/ might not work with the 
'down-graded' version of the package you are about to install.


As you are used to the occasional problems we get when running sid I'm 
sure you'll be able to cope!


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] Hello says 'idonis'

[Dave Turner]

On 20/07/17 05:45, KatolaZ wrote:

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 09:12:11PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

[cut]


Ismael was first asked to fill out a bug report, without the added text
"at bugs.devuan.org". Sounds simple to you, but an unnecessary time
waster for him. Those four words should be included with every request
for bug tracking.

Hi Steve,

I don't know where you picked this from. Every time I ask anybody to
file a bug, I always say: "Please file a bug report at
http://bugs.devuan.org, i.e. by using the 'reportbug' tool".

[cut]


You know, I've had situations where I found a bug, asked a few
questions, solved the bug, wrote the solution on the mailing list,
marked it , and was then asked to jump through a bugtracker's
hoops to re-record it. I went on to other things.


Steve, has this ever happened to you in Devuan? The answer is: NO. So
please, do not bring here your past bad experience with other
communities, mixing it with unrelated comments about other bad
experiences in unrelated contexts :)

We are here to try to solve Devuan's problems, not to overburden the
users with rants about how that specific developer harassed me when I
failed to specify in my bug report that I was using X,Y,Z.

Reporting bugs, and keeping bug reports tidy, is vital to solving
bugs, like it or not. People keep asking what they can do in practice
for Devuan if they can't develop new things, or maintain packages. The
one thing I can suggest is:


  ** learn how to report bugs, report as many bugs as possible, help
  ** with triaging them, help with solving them if you can, help other
  ** people who are venturing on the same path.


The problem with reporting bugs in a ML like DNG, which has an average
of 6000+ messages per year, is that they simply get *lost*.

And acknowledging a bug report on a ML like DNG is useless, since
users will think that they have successfully helped Devuan, only to
discover that their bug was not solved in the end, just because it got
forgotten among 500 other emails about how to cook a perfect goulash
or how to shoot a woodpecker from a 100ft distance.

Helping a community costs some effort, because "helping" is just about
doing some work yourself on behalf of somebody else.


[cutting-40-lines-of-unrelated-rant-about-BTSs...]


To summarize: Many people use ten or twenty different pieces of Free
Software. Each piece has its own "bug tracker" with its own URL and
rules and demanded info. Some even refuse to go farther if something
isn't put in: It's like "ha ha sucker, we wasted your time. Wanna go
double or nothing?" I think the Free Software world will be much more
efficient if the User is thanked for submitting a good and complete
symptom description, without having to know project specific
information.
  

A good and complete symptom description *is* a bug report. But
anything like "UTF does not work in Devuan under X" is neither a
complete symptom description nor a bug report. It's just a rant. And
we don't need rants, because we have already plenty of them and rants
have no solutions. We need bug reports, since we have a lot of bugs
and bugs usually do have solutions.

My2Cents

KatolaZ



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Steve may have wittered on a bit but the point he makes is correct. Most 
of the users of devuan are not sad techie geeks. What seems normal and 
natural and easy to you is firmly in 'WTF' territory for normal people.


I have made bug reports for other distributions both linux and BSD, 
dashed hard work! Handling it through careful questioning on a mailing 
list is by far the best way to get to the root cause of the problem so 
it can be passed on to someone who can deal with it.


But anything like "UTF does not work in Devuan under X" is neither a complete symptom description nor a bug report. 


True, it is the starting point for careful questioning. OpenBSD always 
asks for the complete dmesg to be posted.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] WARNING! DO NOT APT-GET UPDATE/UPGRADE ON ASCII

[Dave Turner]

On 28/06/17 17:06, KatolaZ wrote:

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:50:07AM -0400, zap wrote:

[cut]


just wondered, Is aptitude upgrade safe?


No, it was not safe. If you have upgraded your Devuan Ascii (testing)
system in the last 24 hours, using whatever mean (apt-get, apt,
aptitude, synaptic, etc.) you might have erroneously got packages from
the new Debian testing (Buster). If this is the case, please read the
other email I just sent, since it contains an explanation of how you
can downgrade to ascii.

HND

KatolaZ



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Tell me about devuan unstable ceres.

Nobody replied to my question about running ceres, happily I have not 
switched on my iMac running ascii in the last few days so the recent 
problems haven't affected me.


I have run debian unstable on assorted non-critical computers for years 
without any major problems apart from when GRUB changed to GRUB2, and it 
was 'fun' and I could fix the fuckups in a couple of minutes every time. 
But nowadays I use lilo...


Is devuan ceres as unsatble as debian pretend sid is?

And, since the latest updates on debian sid my laptop shows emails in 
huge fonts - which how this looks to me, or nice everyday 10 or 12 point 
fonts. Intrigues to know how I you see this.



DaveT


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[DNG] results of upgrade from devaun jessie to ascii

[Dave Turner]

This is on an 11 year old Apple Imac, slim would not play nicely at all 
when I did the upgrade from debian wheezy to devuan jessie, left me with 
a black screen.


After many weeks of jessie it seems like a good time to move on to ascii.

I have decided to keep to a minimal setup set up so I am using lilo, 
xdm, twm, ctwm. No fancy stuff at all.


I had to install lua and then create the symlink from /usr/bin/lua to 
/usr/bin/lua5.3 to get the convert.lua script to work for converting an 
old .conkyrc script to the new lua version.


The upgrade messed up ctwm by leaving me without the 
/etc/X11/ctwm/system.ctwmrc file. The menudefs.hooks for both twm and 
ctwm got messed up too. Nothing I can't fix.



I am still using debian unstable on my laptop, it rarely breaks. The 
last time I tried devaun unstable it was a nightmare! Would I be correct 
in assuming that with the work needed to get rid of systemd dependencies 
devaun unstable will stay 'unstable' for normal users?


DaveT


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Re: [DNG] GOSFUI

[Dave Turner]

On 28/04/17 00:58, Steve Litt wrote:

Hi all,

A few months ago I invented the word GOSFUI to prevent arguments and
hijackings when discussing window managers and/or desktop environments.
Now I've written about GOSFUI in detail:

http://troubleshooters.com/linux/gosfui.htm

If you agree with me, please spread the word.

SteveT

Steve Litt
April 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
  of the Successful Technologist
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A nice summing up of the situation AND something to rant about!

GrapHical not Grapical.

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] vim8

[Dave Turner]

On 15/03/17 22:31, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:

Hi All,

I have few questions.

I am on (devuan) jessie..
Given that "mixing stable and testing branches is recipe for 
disaster", is it safe to apt install vim version 8 from ascii?


I pinned the ascii packages to priority 50 in preferences and I get:

# apt-get install -t ascii vim
...
The following extra packages will be installed:
  libncurses5 libncurses5:i386 libncurses5-dev libncursesw5 libtinfo-dev
  libtinfo5 libtinfo5:i386 ncurses-bin vim-common vim-runtime vim-tiny xxd
Suggested packages:
  ncurses-doc ctags vim-doc vim-scripts indent
Recommended packages:
  libgpm2:i386
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  vim vim-runtime xxd
The following packages will be upgraded:
  libncurses5 libncurses5:i386 libncurses5-dev libncursesw5 libtinfo-dev
  libtinfo5 libtinfo5:i386 ncurses-bin vim-common vim-tiny
10 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1298 not upgraded.
Need to get 8703 kB of archives.
After this operation, 30.6 MB of additional disk space will be used.
...

Would it be better to install from source?
Can I remove vim.tiny after (or before) installing vim?

Thanks!

Antonio



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If the version of vim you need is in backports use that.

If it is not, then you have a choice of living dangerously and using the 
packages from testing, or installing from source.


If you DO decide to install from source may I recommend that you find 
'Build-Pkg-Smart-Way.pdf'


http://goo.gl/mmhqhhas it.

You end up creating your own .deb package and installing that so that 
dpkg and apt-get are fully aware of it.


If there are not too many dependencies I tend to use the package from 
unstable. Sometimes I get away with it, and sometimes I don't and have 
to do it the hard way...



DaveT

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Re: [DNG] getting surf from backports

[Dave Turner]

On 13/03/17 13:35, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 08:25:25AM +, KatolaZ wrote:

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 07:10:00PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:

I have found two browser-related devuan packages that have surf in
their names.

surf
netsurf

Is either of them relted to the surf you are documenting?


Hi Hendrik,

you should use the package "surf". The default version in jessie is
0.6, but I would warmly suggest you to get the 0.7, e.g. from
jessie-backports.

Just noticed
surf --version
doesn't work.

But aptitude indeed does tell me I'm using 0.6.

Looking at backports.  Now have surf 0.7.

With the backports lines in /etc/apt/sources.list, will everything automatically
get upgraded to the backports version if I do
aptitude update
aptitude upgrade
?  I don't see anything in /etc/apt to stop this.  I'd like to be able to have 
some
control over which packages I get from backports.

Or am I better off from a security perspective to always get backports updates 
for
everything?
  
-- hendrik



HND

KatolaZ

--
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ]
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


Hendrik,
When you use backports all packages in backports are de-activated.
You have to explicitly install the package you want.

|sudo apt-get -t jessie-backports install "package"|


So don't be afraid to add
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian jessie-backports main
into your sources.list

and have a look at
https://backports.debian.org/Instructions/
to set your mind at rest.

DaveT



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[DNG] debian bug report 775086 and devuan 1.0 jessie

[Dave Turner]

I have an old iMac running running devuan jessie. I couldn't burn DVDs 
using xfburn. It appears to be a known problem on early Intel Mac mini 
and Mac Pro. The error message is:-


WARNING **: [FATAL] 131357: SCSI error onwrite(32,16): [5 24 00] Illegal 
request. Invalid field in cdb.


The solution was to download the following files from a debian sid 
repository:-


libxfce4util7_4.12.1-3_amd64.deb and xfburn_0.5.4-1_amd64.deb

use dkpg to install them.

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=775086

has the full info but the original bug reporter never responded to 
requests for logs.


The interweb had two options namely downgrade to xfburn 0.5.0 or upgrade 
to the latest xfburn.


DaveT


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Re: [DNG] Gtk3-theme

[Dave Turner]

>Thankfully the Clearlooks-Phenix-Purpy theme still handles synaptic 
etc.in jessie.
>We may have to rethink the default desktop in ascii . . . and if there 
will even be one . .


I was losing track of who said what when, but THAT above is what I want 
to comment on!


You have enough to do, don't have a default desktop in ascii.
The choice of desktop is MINE not yours!

(I loathe synaptic with a vengeance, feel free to abandon it)

I'm a bit uncertain about that
Long story . . .>

Does it need a default colour?
Aren't there better things to do?

On a happier note I have just bought another motorbike, a 1967 LE 
Velocette and it is much more fun than anything to do with software!


DaveT


On 22/02/17 17:14, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

On 2017-02-22 09:22, aitor_czr wrote:

Hi golinux,

On 02/22/2017 02:34 AM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:



Hi aitor,

The green you used in the Devuan-Green from July last year is
closer to leafy - #8FAA00. There is no green even close to the
green in your current theme planned for devuan. However note that
the signature color for ascii has yet to be decided. Long story . .
.


 I know, that's the green colour used in Mint-Y, the gtk-(beta) theme
in LinuxMint.



Then it should be named Minty-Green.  ;)



There is no hilighting of selected items in synaptic and the title
and menu bar are broken. That could be because I'm on jessie not
ascii.


 Synaptic is one of the gtk3 applications giving more aesthetic
problems at every turn. For example, the toolbar has a handle on the
left side (like the toolbar of the gtk2 example in lxappearance:
http://gnuinos.org/2017-02-22--1487776608_178x159_scrot.png [3]) , but
it's missing in the most of the gtk themes.



Thankfully the Clearlooks-Phenix-Purpy theme still handles synaptic 
etc.in jessie.
We may have to rethink the default desktop in ascii . . . and if there 
will even be one . .

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Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

[Dave Turner]

On 06/12/16 13:30, Alessandro Selli wrote:

Il giorno Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:55:44 -0500
Steve Litt  ha scritto:


On Mon, 5 Dec 2016 09:05:11 +0800
Robert Storey  wrote:


It pains me to say this, but the installation program for Devuan
Beta2 is seriously broken. And I say this not as some kind of troll,
but rather as a Devuan enthusiast who has already been running Devuan
as my main system for six months.

The whole problem is getting networking set up either during or after
the install.

This is a problem with many distros, and it would be cool if Devuan
could provide easy ways to bust through the catch-22s that difficult
hardware produces.

The biggest problem: One I don't think Devuan has, is those Free
Software or Bust fools who won't even provide proprietary drivers for
video and networking during installation.

   Actually this is *not* a problem with GNU/Linux distros or "Free Software
or Bust fools", it's a problem with proprietary software and closed
hardware.
   I'd like to point out that including proprietary drivers does not address
any of the issues Robert Storey described:

1) no WiFi support in the install program;
2) no DHCP autoconfiguration using a wired Ethernet connection;
3) Wicd missing after installation.

   None of the above has anything to do with hardware support or missing
proprietary drivers/firmware.


Which of course leaves the
user to find out exactly what driver is needed, find out where to get
it, put it there in the middle of the install (how?), and try again.

   Devuan was born with the intention of removing the artificial limits
systemd is imposing users.  Proprietary software is even worse in restricting
people's choice.  If your vision of Devuan is something like Ubuntu, with
every kind of software ditched-in just for the sake of attracting
unsuspecting victims into it's snares, I think you'd better direct your
efforts into Ubuntu of like Gnome or Unity based distribution.


You can't expect that kind of patience from the vast majority of users.

   Freedom and choice do come with a cost: the cost of patience and
endurance.  Sometimes eve the cost of struggle.  If what you want is an easy,
cozy, just-click-OK-and-everything-runs-as-smooth-as-you-wished distribution,
then I think you're the OSX kind of user.  Not GNU/Linux, much less Devuan or
similar freedom-oriented distribution.


They'll just switch to Ubuntu or whatever.

   If that's what they want, that's precisely where they ought to direct their
efforts to.  One of the nice things about GNU/Linux is that it comes in so
many versions and flavors, you can choose the distribution that best suits
your needs, technical expertise, field of use and (lack of) patience.  I think
the idea that all GNU/Linux distributions ought to work all the very same way
is deeply wrong and short-sighted.


Wifi is always problematic. Always.

   It was not to me.  I just chose supported hardware.  Unsupported hardware
is a PITA in every distribution and OS.
  

NetworkManager, Wicd, and even the
wpa_* all seem to fail at just the wrong time.

   I disinstalled NetworkManager and never installed Wicd.  My WiFi networks
I'm dealing with making use of wpa_supplicant and wpa_gui alone.


If I were Devuan, I'd
create a wifi module that:

1) Displays the wifi signals in signal strength order

2) Asks which you want, THAT YOU HAVE A PASSWORD FOR!!!

3) Ask for the password twice,verify they match

4) Ask for default router
a) With very helpful prompts and help

5) Ask if they'd like default dns  and 8844
a) If not, suggest the default router

6) Run acquired passphrase through wpa_passphrase >> wpa_supplicant.conf

7) By hook or by crook, get a DHCP lease
a) If necessary, put DHCP server on this computer

8) Verify lookup of devuan.org
a) If not, run some intelligent diagnostic software

   That'd be a nice piece of software to have.  I'd like to see someone
working of such a beast.


   Thank you for your contribution.


Robert has a very valid point. Unless the hardware is very new 
networking including WiFi should work at the time of installation. It 
does on debian, has done for a long time though it took about a year for 
them to catch up with the WiFi on my old Toshiba laptop... Devuan is a 
fork of debian so how hard can it be?


If I want to work at getting a distro up and running I use Slackware - 
and did before devuan was available. Seriously tedious though... It is 
the 21st Century and a distro should give the user a basic but useable 
system at the time of install.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] hplip need systemd

[Dave Turner]

On 05/10/16 21:06, Bardot Jérôme wrote:

Le 05/10/2016 à 01:23, Rick Moen a écrit :

Quoting Go Linux (goli...@yahoo.com):


Indeed, cups does print.  But it doesn't have perks of the HP device
manager that lets you clean/align and check the status of the
cartridges etc. At least I haven't found that in cups.

In case my meaning was somehow unclear:  printer-driver-hpcups and
printer-driver-hpijs are the _parts_ of metapackage hplip that you
and M. Bardot need.

I'm not saying 'install only CUPS'.  I'm saying 'install only the
constituent parts of 'hplip' that you actually want.


  I found it, thx.

  But after some troubles i realize the package i need wich require
libsane-hpaio.

  I didn't see it the first time i look because i was focus on the hplip.
So i have the same question for libsane-hpaio (even i know there is a
alternative policykit in devuan repo).

  J.


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On my nice new devuan installation I have the same problem - how do I 
print to my HP LaserJet?


I installed the printer-driver-hpcups and printer-driver-hpijs but it 
still wouldn't play nicely.


sudo usermod -a -G lpadmin my_user_name

was needed.

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Re: [DNG] devuan jessie crashes during boot on 10 year old iMac

[Dave Turner]

I did a fresh install of minimal debian squeeze.
Then I did the dist-upgrade to debian wheezy.
Then I cleaned out all of the old squeeze code still hanging around
Then I did a wheezy update.
And then I followed the dev1fanboy instructions for the dist-upgrade 
from wheezy to devuan jessie.

And it worked! Using lilo too.

DaveT

On 02/10/16 17:28, Dave Turner wrote:

I installed a very minimal debian squeeze.

Did a dist-upgrade to a very minimal wheezy.

And then followed the dev1fanboy instructions for the dist-upgrade 
from wheezy to devuan jessie.


It all seemed to go so well until I rebooted.

The usual messages whizzed past in a very large font, then the usual 
blank screen before it comes back with a nice small font, but, 
nothing! Just a blank screen.


Is it possible my wheezy installation was a bit too minimal?

Or maybe my /boot partition was bit too small? I set it at 256MB.

All suggestions welcome.

And as an FYI - dist-upgrade from squeeze to devuan-jessie fails. You 
have to go via wheezy.


DaveT

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[DNG] devuan jessie crashes during boot on 10 year old iMac

[Dave Turner]

I installed a very minimal debian squeeze.

Did a dist-upgrade to a very minimal wheezy.

And then followed the dev1fanboy instructions for the dist-upgrade from 
wheezy to devuan jessie.


It all seemed to go so well until I rebooted.

The usual messages whizzed past in a very large font, then the usual 
blank screen before it comes back with a nice small font, but, nothing! 
Just a blank screen.


Is it possible my wheezy installation was a bit too minimal?

Or maybe my /boot partition was bit too small? I set it at 256MB.

All suggestions welcome.

And as an FYI - dist-upgrade from squeeze to devuan-jessie fails. You 
have to go via wheezy.


DaveT

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[DNG] devuan beta iso fails to boot on 10 year old iMac

[Dave Turner]

I get a black screen that looks like this:-

1.


2.

Select CD-ROM Boot Type:

There is a flashing cursor but no keyboard inputs are recognised so that 
is as far as you can go.



Something has changed in the linux installer iso over the years.

debian squeeze, fedora 13, ubuntu 14 are the most recent CD iso that 
will boot on my iMac 6,1 from 2006.


OpenBSD 6 and NetBSD 7 boot and install. FreeBSD and variants don't boot.

If you like supporting old hardware you might want to investigate what 
the problem is and fix it, and if you can get it done up-stream so much 
the better.


The hardware on my iMac is an Apple mash-up of 32 bit UEFI with a 64 bit 
processor. Old Apple hardware can be had cheaply and is good quality, 
Apple abandoned us years ago so there ought to be quite a few people 
like me eager to run a recent OS on it.


I was running debian sid, I'm going to go through the tedium of 
installing devuan jessie by starting with debian squeeze.


I don't use OpenBSD or NetBSD on it because the sound doesn't work. A 
problem with the azalia driver.



DaveT

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Re: [DNG] What does Devuan expect from a boot-loader?

[Dave Turner]

On 01/10/16 10:03, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Dave Turner (dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk):


short answer:
a boot-loader should boot any hardware I choose to install it on.
If that means it has to be a complex lump of software - so be it.

   ^

For my part, you are _absolutely_ welcome to adopt and use a complex
lump of software that is capable of booting 'any hardware you choose to
install it on'.
I don't want to use a complex lump of software, but grub2 seems to be 
what works so I use it
I prefer lilo, I have used old grub, but for my uefi laptop it is grub2, 
and other than elilo I know of nothing else that might work.

Now I am preparing my old iMac for devuan.

Hmm, I haven't actually installed Linux on an iMac in a dog's age.
Maybe someone else has recent experience.  I think I used the rEFIt
bootloader, and don't remember any particular problems.
Linux and macs mainly works. My iMac is 10 years old with a 32bit uefi 
implementation - it fights you all the way, but it can be done. For 
debian you start with squeeze because nothing newer will boot.


DaveT


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Re: [DNG] What does Devuan expect from a boot-loader?

[Dave Turner]

On 01/10/16 06:37, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Joel Roth (jo...@pobox.com):


I'm personally happy with lilo, and Devuan allows me to use it.

I love lilo.  I should note, however, that Edward's requirements include
GPT (GUID Partition Table) support, which might be possible with lilo or
might be problematic.  Sources differ:
http://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/booting.html
http://docs.slackware.com/howtos:slackware_admin:installing_with_gpt_without_uefi

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short answer:
a boot-loader should boot any hardware I choose to install it on. If 
that means it has to be a complex lump of software - so be it. Nicely 
documented smaller lighter options are welcome!


long answer:
I use lilo when I can because it does what I need it to on the old 
computers I use for linux.

My nice new uefi laptop has grub2 and runs debian sid.

Now I am preparing my old iMac for devuan.
I know it will be an 'interesting' install because debian stopped making 
an iso that will boot on my imac when wheezy came out!

My install for sid went like this:-
install minimal squeeze,
do dist-upgrade to minimal wheezy,
do dist-upgrade to minimal jessie,
do dist-upgrade to minimal sid,
install all the stuff I want.

'Something' interesting happened to linux iso files because most linux 
distributions won't boot either. Slackware did boot but slackware gives 
me a headache as soon as I try to install the software I want from the 
various slackware repositories.


FYI freeBSD and variants won't boot, NetBSD and OpenBSD will boot but 
once installed I can't get the sound to work.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] On talk.do and Web forums

[Dave Turner]

Traffic on ye olde dng@lists.dyne.org has gone down a lot.
Is it because of this new-fangled Discourse thing?

DaveT

On 28/09/16 21:38, hellekin wrote:

On 09/28/2016 03:57 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

Does anyone remember the great, text formatted, human created Devuan
Weekly News? It's sad to think the Devuan Weekly News was supplanted by
Discourse Digest.


Oh yes I do.  After Envite burned out on it, I had to take a lot of my
own time to keep it alive, and in the end it stopped when I stopped
taking care of it because I simply couldn't take that time anymore.
You're welcome to revive it, but frankly, I'd rather see contents coming
from IRC and talk.do and git.do going to DNG rather than contents from DNG.


Yes, very few people are using it.

Perhaps this is the reason...

http://lists.netisland.net/archives/plug/plug-2016-09/msg00113.html


Of all the points, I think only 13 applies to Discourse *when it is used
as a mailing list*.

For the rest, Steve, you're trying to say that Discourse is meant to
*replace* our mailing lists: but it's not.

We're really talking about forum software.  I'm mentioning the mailing
lists only because the main argument against Discourse is that the Web
interface sucks, and so on.  But using the Web interface is not
mandatory (except for setting up the account and choosing to use the
mailing list mode.)

Mailing list mode is certainly not perfect, but it still allows
Web-allergic people to use it by email.  Since Gitlab also requires
Javascript, Discourse makes a good companion to it.  But you can read it
without Javascript, and participate by email if so you choose.  You can
also *not* use it, and it's fine.


- multiple threads talk about the same thing, adding "where?" to the
archaeology of remembering what was said.

The preceding happens often on forums. Is Discourse really any
different?


Yes it is: as I mentioned, it's very easy to select some posts and
reroute them into another existing or new topic.  I've been using Web
forum software since 1993.  The first one was a shitty CGI that allowed
almost synchronous discussion.  Then I used WebX when it was still
usable, and then Caucus.  Caucus evolved from email.  It was used in
academy for courses and had many advanced features that still today are
missing to the mainstream forum software, such as programmable
conferences and topics, and a powerful markup language that makes BBcode
and such look like plastic toys.  I remember converting the whole UI in
a way that would allow me to blaze through unread topics by hitting
alt-space on my keyboard 12 years ago.  Discourse provides a similar
feature set that leaves other forum software decades behind.


I don't see how Discourse could ameliorate bad behavior among
posters. And even if it could, why inconvenience
good citizens to accommodate the thoughtless?


It can because it encourages good behavior and grants more power with
more personal investment: it's hard to behave badly as you're learning
more not only of its usage, but also of the local culture as you go, and
you can't do much without a little personal investment which makes it
quite an incentive not to misbehave.

I don't get how it inconveniences good citizens to accommodate the
thoughtless.  Care to explain?


My archives are local.


Glad it works for you.  Have you tried finding anything in a search
engine only to end up reading empty forum threads with no relevant
answer?  This is what I'm talking about.  Not email archives.


I don't think Discourse wants to have an archives contest with email.


I don't think it has to, but I do think a nicely maintained Discourse
forum would beat it hands down.


If you mean current threads require patching up whole threads to
understand, once again that's due exclusively to poster bad behavior.


You know we can't reform people's bad behavior.  Or can we?


If everyone deleted all quoted context EXCEPT that pertenant to the
answer, and typed their answer/response directly below the last
poster's question/assertion, everything would be perfectly clear.


Yes.


Don't blame email


I don't.  I use it every day and I love it.  I don't intend to stop
using it anytime soon.


And of course there's this: There are very few offenders on the DNG
list. We're worrying about a problem that doesn't exist


What problem is that?


- mailing lists can get invaded by trolls

So can forums. I doubt Discourse has a mental telepathy module that can
read a person's thoughts when they sign up.


It doesn't.  But it has a very good strategy against spammers.  I didn't
see a single spammer in a Discourse forum so far.  That's because
spammers don't want to spend the time necessary to get to the point
where their spam can make it to a topic, and then have to start from
scratch.  Not worth it for them.


So what we're doing is adding this big new software thing to fix the
actions of bad citizens. I have a simpler fix:

http://troubleshooters.com/linux/init/killfile.htm


It's not about fixing 

Re: [DNG] vdev - scanner

[Dave Turner]

On 02/09/16 23:39, Ralph Ronnquist wrote:

Dave Turner wrote on 02/09/16 20:12:

On 02/09/16 01:38, Ralph Ronnquist wrote:

Ralph Ronnquist wrote on 01/09/16 08:51:


My worry is that the OS_TYPE=255/255/255 condition is not distinct
enough to make the action apply exactly and only for scanners. 
Comparing

with udev rules, you'll find there are more than a few rules for USB
devices, and almost all of them make their classification based on the
vendor/product pair (rather than the capability declarations).
...


I'm a little bit at a loss here, as I can't find anything in the vdev
tree dealing with, say, scanners or, say, mode switching USB devices.
Since those are major chunks in udev rules, I'm just confused. Have I
misunderstood?

I find "scanner" mentioned in the hwdb, but there is no formal
classification of those other than identifying as usb (or pci);
nothing classifying them as scanners (unless you'd regard the model
label as such). I wish someone could explain things for me...

Ralph.
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I loathe the 'feature' of udev that forces you to create or modify
/etc/udev/rules.d/51-android to let your cheap'n'cheerful unlisted
Android Device get through udev security. And now it seems that vdev is
about to force the same thing. I know it isn't easy to completely
re-think how things should be done, do OSX and the BSDs have a different
and better way of doing this sort of thing?

I want to ask you why a database of $V/$P/$N mappings is needed. It is
my laptop and my cheap Android tablet and I want to plug it into the USB
socket and have them play nicely together. God knows what I would have
done if I was just a normal ordinary person. I would have concluded that
linux was shit and gone back to my Mac or Windoze.

dmesg knew all about my android tablet when I plugged it in, why can't
vdev pick it up from there?

this is what I had to add into 51-android having had a look at dmesg 
first.


#my cheap Android tablet
ATTR{idVendor}=="1f3a", ENV{adb_user}="yes"


I suppose the issue is to make sure that the right user have the right 
access to the right devices when she wants to use the computer, whilst 
making sure that the wrong user doesn't have the wrong access 
regardless of what he wants to do.


Traditionally on Linux, the means to achieve this would be to use file 
permissions. Then more recently, the notion of access control lists 
was invented to offer a more dynamic access control. And then even 
more recently "people" have decided that this is an insanely hard 
problem, which requires an insane solution.


Given the scope of possible use cases, perhaps the permission handling 
should be taken elsewhere, and make the hotplug handler only deal with 
ensuring the device is functional and available to the permission 
handling sub system. Maybe even the latter could be PAM (although I 
don't know if PAM can make device access be allowed rather than just 
judging whether or not it is allowed).


Ralph.
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So, what if some daemon or other knows I have plugged in my Android 
device and brings up a window telling me to click here to access my 
Android device or Cancel? The daemon then does the necessary things and 
it Just Works.


(managed to hit Reply List 1st time!)

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Re: [DNG] vdev - scanner

[Dave Turner]

On 02/09/16 01:38, Ralph Ronnquist wrote:

Ralph Ronnquist wrote on 01/09/16 08:51:


My worry is that the OS_TYPE=255/255/255 condition is not distinct
enough to make the action apply exactly and only for scanners. Comparing
with udev rules, you'll find there are more than a few rules for USB
devices, and almost all of them make their classification based on the
vendor/product pair (rather than the capability declarations).
...


I'm a little bit at a loss here, as I can't find anything in the vdev 
tree dealing with, say, scanners or, say, mode switching USB devices. 
Since those are major chunks in udev rules, I'm just confused. Have I 
misunderstood?


I find "scanner" mentioned in the hwdb, but there is no formal 
classification of those other than identifying as usb (or pci); 
nothing classifying them as scanners (unless you'd regard the model 
label as such). I wish someone could explain things for me...


Ralph.
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I loathe the 'feature' of udev that forces you to create or modify 
/etc/udev/rules.d/51-android to let your cheap'n'cheerful unlisted 
Android Device get through udev security. And now it seems that vdev is 
about to force the same thing. I know it isn't easy to completely 
re-think how things should be done, do OSX and the BSDs have a different 
and better way of doing this sort of thing?


I want to ask you why a database of $V/$P/$N mappings is needed. It is 
my laptop and my cheap Android tablet and I want to plug it into the USB 
socket and have them play nicely together. God knows what I would have 
done if I was just a normal ordinary person. I would have concluded that 
linux was shit and gone back to my Mac or Windoze.


dmesg knew all about my android tablet when I plugged it in, why can't 
vdev pick it up from there?


this is what I had to add into 51-android having had a look at dmesg first.

#my cheap Android tablet
ATTR{idVendor}=="1f3a", ENV{adb_user}="yes"

DaveT

(idiot boy managed to hit Reply instead of Reply List, icedove isn't as 
good as it thinks it is...)


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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Dave Turner]

On 27/07/16 21:21, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Rainer Weikusat (rweiku...@talktalk.net):


these are obviously not identical: The subjects differ.

I repeat:  I really did not understand what you were saying, and I still
don't.  Therefore, I summarised my best guess, apologised for probably
being dense and overly fond of the specific and concrete, and attempted
to suggest giving up said discussion, especially given that mostly you
seemed to be devoted to finding fault with me personally.  Is there some
reason this is not a good idea?  I continue to think it is.


I'm bored with this. I don't care. Stop it.

As soon as I have finished my current Android project using my main 
laptop running debian sid anything that has 'systemd' as part of its 
name goes. And that will mean goodbye to debian, hopefully hello devuan, 
but there's all those BSDs out there...


DaveT - looking forward to a weekend spent converting the Harley from 
EFI to carb.


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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Dave Turner]

I have read about half of this thread and decided I would make my 
comments at the most recent response, so Jaromil wins (loses?!).


Most of what I have read is arguments between uber-geeks.
They can pin debian packages and make it do what they want but their 
needs seems to be... limited.
The tips on how to work around hplip for hp printers are interesting and 
I will try them on the debian sid installation on my elderly iMac.


Damn near everything I might want to do are deeply tied into systemd.
I don't like that.
The work-arounds are hard work. I have a life.
The ECU for the fuel injection on my Harley-Davidson has died.
Harley have very helpfully made the replacement ECU obsolete.
S Cycle can supply but only on Special Order.
Being a grumpy old tattooed biker I decided to remove everything related 
to fuel injection and fit a carburettor.

That isn't as easy as it sounds.
Harley have made the ignition module and the wiring harness for 
carburetted bikes obsolete.
Luckily the Sad Old Fart can (and has) used rejected bits of ECU wiring 
harness to make a new wiring harness to work with the carburetor. 
Daytona Twin Tec provided the the very nice ignition module.


Sad Old Fart _really_ doesn't want to have to do that for his assorted 
computers.


Nas4Free does the hifi - full of FLAC files.
SONOS do the wifi to hifi, and and BIG bi-amplified speakers make the noise!
(using crossovers in loudspeakers is so 20th Century - and if you 
are still using them, well, you know nothing!)

I was working with tri-amplified speaker setups in 1980.

Sad Old Fart is VERY pleased he persuaded the company he works for not 
to upgrade debian beyond wheezy.


And the uefi laptop I am using to write this also runs debian sid 
because I need the very latest packages for trying my hand at Android 
development.


My tired old Toshiba laptop runs devuan, but that is for fun.

DaveT Audio Engineering Society member amongst other things.

On 14/07/16 16:17, Jaromil wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016, Hendrik Boom wrote:


Percentage of Debian 8 packages you can use of you don't want systemd
around (again, unless I've missed any) is thus:

   (43671 - 97) / 43671 * 100 = 99.77%


That's probably the reason why amprolla works so well.


well the packages we mask are more and the list is on our website.

nevertheless you are right in noting Amprolla's workload is not
enormous (yet?) and even then we could spot some glitches in its
functioning. as usual, this is a learning process and Nextime's
silence on the matter can only signify he is working on it. the next
version will be still in python but with space for C modules and
that's where most of us are proficient so I guess there will be plenty
of space for improvement. I also don't exclude having shard style
caching and similar tricks on the forefront when necessary.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Is kernel 4.5.0 flakey ?

[Dave Turner]

On 31/05/16 21:14, Haines Brown wrote:

I installed 64bit jessie on a new HDD, and initially used the 3.16.0
kernel. Then I installed the 4.50 kernel and ran into trouble.

   kernel:[25090.816205] NMI watchdog: BUG: soft lockup - CPU #7
   stuck for 22!s
 [colord-sane:20969]

This message is displayed every few seconds in whatever happens to have
the focus and is accompanied with a beep. The keyboard and mouse
hang so that I must do a hot reboot.

Is this in fact a kernel bug?

How (simply) do you tell GRUB to boot an earlier available kernel?

Is there any reason not to purge Grub and install LILO in place of it?
Grub is too difficult for me.

Haines Brown
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The debian unstable kernel is now at version 4.5.5-1. I update daily so 
if 4.50 kernel did have problems it wouldn't have been on my laptop for 
long! And if 4.50 does have problems it should get updated in stable 
very soon.


For using an earlier available kernel, it depends on exactly how you 
installed the new kernel. apt-get update usually reruns grub and so grub 
gives you choice of the old kernel. sudo update-grub should do it.


As for lilo, if you like it install it. I only stopped using it because 
it doesn't work with modern UEFI based computers. Maintenance of lilo 
has ended or is about to end so GRUB is probably in your future...


DaveT


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Re: [DNG] problem installing JRE

[Dave Turner]

On 18/04/16 02:30, Haines Brown wrote:

I'm running devuan alpha4 on a Thinkpad x250, and so far everything has
worked well. But now a problem.

I need to convert PDFs to Word, and the obvious utility is (proprietary)
easyConverter. Problem is that I can't install default-jre because the
tzdata-java package on which it depends can't be found. This is a known
bug. Is there a work-around or will that bug soon be resolved?

I need to go from LaTeX to Word. I find that lwarp does an excellent job
converting TeX to HTML, but HTML format does not convert well to
Word. This is why I need to convert PDF directly to Word.

Haines Brown

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I run debian sid on my main laptop and devuan ceres on my other laptop.
In both distros default-jre does not depend on the tzdata-java package.

I think that means that the bug has been fixed by not having default-jre 
depend on tzdata-java anymore!
Eventually that will percolate down into stable. Or stable will rise up 
to meet it.


You have a couple of workarounds open to you.
1) do a dist-upgrade to devuan ceres and 'enjoy' life on the edge. It's fun!
2) use debian backports to get the latest default-jre and 
default-jre-headless.

3) acquire tzdata-java.deb from some debian or ubuntu repository.

In devuan ceres and debian sid defaut-jre 2:1.8-57 ends up with the 
following major depends:-

(and assorted minor ones)
default-jre-headless 2:1.8-57
openjdk-8-jre
java-common , version 0.57 in ceres and sid, you may well get away with 
whatever version of java-common you already have.


Be careful. Mainly acquiring the debs and installing them will work 
without problems.
Mainly. I needed the latest version of Apache Maven. I had a choice of 
installing many many packages from backports - which is a bad thing to 
do, or upgrading to sid. It was a lot easier to upgrade to sid.


My first attempt would be to download the tzdata-java.deb and install that.

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] apt-get vs. aptitude ?

[Dave Turner]

On 16/04/16 09:46, Dave Turner wrote:

On 15/04/16 22:25, dev wrote:


On 04/15/2016 03:36 PM, Linux O'Beardly wrote:

For what it's worth, much of the apt vs aptitude is preference and
opinion.  However, aptitude does bit better of a job resolving
dependencies and preventing them from breaking your system.


Yes, That's what I've always read so I have always used aptitude but 
in this instance I have packages that will not upgrade via aptitude. 
I mention this case specifically as the Debian docs[1] say "aptitude 
is the recommended package manager for Debian".


I post this question with the intent to investigate why I might need 
to familiarize myself more with APT as it's evident there are use 
cases where aptitude cannot get the job done. I have struggled with 
situations similar to this only rarely and could have possibly saved 
my self some time knowing the nuances of APT (Debian indeed has one 
of the most diverse set of package management tools around). With 
that in mind, consider the following on this Debian Wheezy based 
system (apologies in advance for the length of this post, but it 
seems pertinent to include)...



#
# apt-get upgrade  <--<<  kernel 2.6.32 will NOT install, updates will
#
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages have been kept back:
  proxmox-ve-2.6.32
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server samba-common smbclient

  ssh tzdata
13 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
Need to get 8975 kB of archives.
After this operation, 1438 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?


#
# apt-get dist-upgrade <--<< kernel will install, updates will
#
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  pve-kernel-2.6.32-45-pve
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server proxmox-ve-2.6.32

  samba-common smbclient ssh tzdata
14 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 46.2 MB of archives.
After this operation, 1438 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?


#
# aptitude upgrade  <--<< kernel will install, updates will NOT
#
Resolving dependencies...
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  pve-kernel-2.6.32-45-pve{a}
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server proxmox-ve-2.6.32

  samba-common smbclient ssh tzdata
The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:
  openssh-blacklist openssh-blacklist-extra samba-common-bin
14 packages upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 46.2 MB of archives. After unpacking 1438 kB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]


#
# aptitude safe-upgrade <--<< kernel will install, updates will NOT
#
Resolving dependencies...
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  pve-kernel-2.6.32-45-pve{a}
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server proxmox-ve-2.6.32

  samba-common smbclient ssh tzdata
The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:
  openssh-blacklist openssh-blacklist-extra samba-common-bin
14 packages upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 46.2 MB of archives. After unpacking 1438 kB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]


#
# aptitude full-upgrade <--<< kernel will install, updates will NOT
#
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  pve-kernel-2.6.32-45-pve{a}
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server proxmox-ve-2.6.32

  samba-common smbclient ssh tzdata
The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:
  openssh-blacklist openssh-blacklist-extra samba-common-bin
14 packages upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 46.2 MB of archives. After unpacking 1438 kB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]


[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-uptodate.en.html
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I use apt-get upgrade and apt-get dist-upgrade.
For anything that apt-get refuses to do - such as your example where 
the kernel has been kept back - I do sudo aptitude which makes it very 
easy to investigate what is going on.
For the 'RECOM

Re: [DNG] apt-get vs. aptitude ?

[Dave Turner]

On 15/04/16 22:25, dev wrote:


On 04/15/2016 03:36 PM, Linux O'Beardly wrote:

For what it's worth, much of the apt vs aptitude is preference and
opinion.  However, aptitude does bit better of a job resolving
dependencies and preventing them from breaking your system.


Yes, That's what I've always read so I have always used aptitude but 
in this instance I have packages that will not upgrade via aptitude. I 
mention this case specifically as the Debian docs[1] say "aptitude is 
the recommended package manager for Debian".


I post this question with the intent to investigate why I might need 
to familiarize myself more with APT as it's evident there are use 
cases where aptitude cannot get the job done. I have struggled with 
situations similar to this only rarely and could have possibly saved 
my self some time knowing the nuances of APT (Debian indeed has one of 
the most diverse set of package management tools around). With that in 
mind, consider the following on this Debian Wheezy based system 
(apologies in advance for the length of this post, but it seems 
pertinent to include)...



#
# apt-get upgrade  <--<<  kernel 2.6.32 will NOT install, updates will
#
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages have been kept back:
  proxmox-ve-2.6.32
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server samba-common smbclient

  ssh tzdata
13 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
Need to get 8975 kB of archives.
After this operation, 1438 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?


#
# apt-get dist-upgrade <--<< kernel will install, updates will
#
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  pve-kernel-2.6.32-45-pve
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server proxmox-ve-2.6.32

  samba-common smbclient ssh tzdata
14 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 46.2 MB of archives.
After this operation, 1438 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?


#
# aptitude upgrade  <--<< kernel will install, updates will NOT
#
Resolving dependencies...
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  pve-kernel-2.6.32-45-pve{a}
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server proxmox-ve-2.6.32

  samba-common smbclient ssh tzdata
The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:
  openssh-blacklist openssh-blacklist-extra samba-common-bin
14 packages upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 46.2 MB of archives. After unpacking 1438 kB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]


#
# aptitude safe-upgrade <--<< kernel will install, updates will NOT
#
Resolving dependencies...
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  pve-kernel-2.6.32-45-pve{a}
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server proxmox-ve-2.6.32

  samba-common smbclient ssh tzdata
The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:
  openssh-blacklist openssh-blacklist-extra samba-common-bin
14 packages upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 46.2 MB of archives. After unpacking 1438 kB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]


#
# aptitude full-upgrade <--<< kernel will install, updates will NOT
#
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  pve-kernel-2.6.32-45-pve{a}
The following packages will be upgraded:
  base-files libnvpair1 libpve-common-perl libuutil1 libwbclient0 
libzfs2 libzpool2 openssh-client openssh-server proxmox-ve-2.6.32

  samba-common smbclient ssh tzdata
The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:
  openssh-blacklist openssh-blacklist-extra samba-common-bin
14 packages upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 46.2 MB of archives. After unpacking 1438 kB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]


[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-uptodate.en.html
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I use apt-get upgrade and apt-get dist-upgrade.
For anything that apt-get refuses to do - such as your example where the 
kernel has been kept back - I do sudo aptitude which makes it very easy 
to investigate what is going on.
For the 'RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed' aptitude will let you 
install them if you want to.
I rarely 

Re: [DNG] Insufficient signing of repositories

[Dave Turner]

On 21/03/16 17:46, Mitt Green wrote:

From the latest "apt update":

--
W: 
gpgv:/var/lib/apt/lists/archive.getdeb.net_ubuntu_dists_wily-getdeb_InRelease: 
The repository is insufficiently signed by key 
1958A549614CE21CFC27F4BAA8A515F046D7E7CF (weak digest)
W: 
gpgv:/var/lib/apt/lists/packages.devuan.org_merged_dists_unstable_InRelease: 
The repository is insufficiently signed by key 
72E3CB773315DFA2E464743D94532124541922FB (weak digest)

--

The repositories are not available. I am using Ceres/Unstable.


Mitt
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It is affecting other repositories too. I'm using an ubuntu repository 
for some stuff I need for Android development on debian sid and that 
gives the same error.


W: 
gpgv:/var/lib/apt/lists/ppa.launchpad.net_webupd8team_java_ubuntu_dists_trusty_InRelease: 
The repository is insufficiently signed by key 
7B2C3B0889BF5709A105D03AC2518248EEA14886 (weak digest)


DaveT


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Re: [DNG] Read the news! UbuntuBSD

[Dave Turner]

On 21/03/16 13:35, Go Linux wrote:

On Mon, 3/21/16, Marlon Nunes  wrote:

  Subject: [DNG] Read the news! UbuntuBSD
  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
  Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 7:19 AM
  
  http://news.softpedia.com/news/meet-ubuntubsd-unix-for-human-beings-501959.shtml

  https://sourceforge.net/projects/ubuntubsd/
  
https://bsd.slashdot.org/story/16/03/21/0321213/meet-ubuntubsd-unix-for-human-beings
  https://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/ubuntubsd



Also see this thread on debian-bsd:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/2016/03/msg00103.html

This response was the best of the lot:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/2016/03/msg00126.html

golinux


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Interesting. Do you think they will be able to get WiFi working on laptops?

DaveT


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Re: [DNG] sup - a "small is beautiful" tool for UNIX privilege escalation

[Dave Turner]

On 17/03/16 17:32, Jim Murphy wrote:

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:14 AM, Jaromil  wrote:

dear devuaneers, suckless hackers and friends of simplicity


--- clipped

Basically sup is an hard-coded sudo.

I adopted the software (wrote a mail to pancake, pending response) and

 clipped the rest

Hi,

As an FYI:  "sup" is not a unique name.

sup[1] Software Upgrade Protocol version 20100519-1

There is a name conflict with this package.  There doesn't appear
to be any active development[2], but there may be a few users[3].
You can find sup in wheezy, jessie, stretch and sid.

[1] https://packages.debian.org/jessie/sup
[2] https://packages.qa.debian.org/s/sup.html
[3] https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=sup

Again, FYI.

Jim
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Would anybody like to do a compare and contrast with 'doas' in OpenBSD?
OpenBSD were so vexed by sudo they ditched it and started from scratch.

I like to 'go with the flow' and so I suggest doas and we port that to 
linux unless anybody could find a really good reason why it would be a 
bad idea.

Guaranteed free of systemd too!


DaveT
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Re: [DNG] Enlightenment anyone? ;)

[Dave Turner]

On 01/03/16 20:14, Mitt Green wrote:

https://twitter.com/ShitDevuanSays/status/699623023188561922

Those RH/GNOME3 trolls don't seem to like E :(
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Well, I don't like it either.
Meanwhile, I very much enjoyed that twitter feed and am especially 
pleased to see that a couple of quotes on there are mine!


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] A heads up about xfce's future

[Dave Turner]

On 28/02/16 13:22, Hendrik Boom wrote:


I think the above is closest to my views on the matter.
Which window manager and desktop environment I choose to use is up
to me and nothing for devuan to worry about.
I use xfce a lot and would like it to work on devuan, but don't
waste valuable time on it.
Am I mistake?  Am I perhaps only dreaming that I'm using xfce on
devuan jessie?  Or is there some technical issue I'm unaware of?
  

I'm old enough to cope quite well with twm, I like using ctwm, and I
really like fluxbox.


I like icewm, too, and will be trying the others you mention just in
case I'm missing something I'm not yet aware of.

I tried lxde and didn't like it -- somehow the mouse became just
slightly jerky and slightly unresponsive.  Not lear how WM would cause
this -- maybe it does permanent mouse tracking in a way that incurs
overhead?

-- hendrik


Typing startx on the command line should not be beyond anybody who
wants to try devuan.
I even persuaded the normal people that use my iMac to do it for a while!

DaveT

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Hendrik,

twm is OLD. Called Toms Window Manager, sometimes The Window Manager 
because it was one of the first proper working window managers. I 
guarantee a WTF? moment if you have never tried it before!

ctwm is twm but with tabs so you can have multiple desktops.
For completeness fvwm is similar but gives you a window on a massive 
desktop, it is the default for OpenBSD.

fluxbox is a proper modern easy to use window manger but with no bloat.
For them all, right-click on the desktop to get anything useful done!

I found that for what I wanted to do on devuan I needed ceres 
'unstable'. It became tedious with xcfe and multiple updates that kept 
breaking other things.
Now I use devuan ceres command line only as xen dom0. Getting a working 
xen domU is a bit more challenging but I'm getting there!

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Re: [DNG] A heads up about xfce's future

[Dave Turner]

On 28/02/16 07:03, Joel Roth wrote:

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 02:32:45AM +, hellekin wrote:

On 02/27/2016 03:28 AM, Simon Wise wrote:

something as minimal as possible, like above, seems a very good option.

I dream of a core Devuan that is modular so that the Desktop Environment
is a *blend* that you layer on top of core.  That way, you can have a
choice of DEs that users can prepare for their own pleasure.

For people like my dad who simply need to reach their
applications, something like icewm is enough. They don't
have the interest or aptitude to master a complex desktop
environment with twitchy GUIs in the style of Apple's recent
offerings.


The question of the default DE comes next: Devuan should be shipped with
a default DE.  So far we've been focusing on XFCE, for reasons unknown
to me (normally I use a tiled WM without DE).

I, too, have found grace (or at least sufficient
convenience) in tiled WMs :)

I agree that if Xfce floats enough boats, and can be
integrated okay, why not?

Alternatively, having a minimal window manager as default,
possibly with a menu choice to upgrade to a fancier DE, seems
like a way to convey that the various DEs are *user
interfaces* rather than representing the OS itself.

That goes with another radical idea: having people login at
the console and type 'startx'. That way, when later there is
some problem, you can ask the person to type some commands
in the console, and they know at least to type something at
a prompt and conclude with the Enter key. They can also
understand that X is a layer on top of the base OS.

These concepts seems quite alien to many users. I think that
even this minimal exposure to the command line could
stimulate curiosity about what the terminal can be used to
accomplish. At the minimum, people will know it is
there.

Maybe I am missing something about the motivations behind
and the benefits of a graphical login screen, but it seems
like the main value is allowing people to run their computer
without ever seeing the command prompt.  I think it would be
of more value for people to encounter the command prompt,
even if briefly.



I can imagine that Jessie 1.0 Beta will ship with XFCE by default.
I hope Jessie 1.0 will ship with a choice for WM/DE, each implemented as
a blend.  That way the community can maintain a collection of *properly
configured and integrated desktops* for those who want to use that, and
leave the rest of us free to build on the foundation, not just decorate
of a pre-chewed environment.

It would be great cooperation to have one group to hack on
the DE stuff, while leaving the Devuan core developers free
to concentrate on lower-level concerns.

Regards,

Joel
  

==
hk

--
  _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
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I think the above is closest to my views on the matter.
Which window manager and desktop environment I choose to use is up to me 
and nothing for devuan to worry about.
I use xfce a lot and would like it to work on devuan, but don't waste 
valuable time on it.
I'm old enough to cope quite well with twm, I like using ctwm, and I 
really like fluxbox.
Typing startx on the command line should not be beyond anybody who wants 
to try devuan.

I even persuaded the normal people that use my iMac to do it for a while!

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] Speaking of Window Managers

[Dave Turner]

On 27/02/16 05:05, Steve Litt wrote:

Hi all,

Here's info on dmenu:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/dmenu

http://linux.die.net/man/1/dmenu

http://troubleshooters.com/lpm/201406/201406.htm#use_faster_tools_dmenu

Just for fun, I'd like some opinions. If a Window Manager were
integrated with Dmenu (which is trivially easy usually), what hotkeys
would you recommend, given that keys can be alt, ctrl, shift, alt-ctrl,
alt-shift, ctrl-shift, and even alt-ctrl-shift?

Hotkey to bring up Dmenu?

Hotkey to bring up window list sorted by workspace?

Hotkey to bring up window manager menu?

Hotkey to toggle laptop mousepad on and off?

Hotkey to close a window (Alt+F4 sucks in my opinion)

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt
February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
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I hate hotkeys in GUIs and never use them. At all. Ever.
Give me a menu and a mouse.

Thank you.

DaveT
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Re: [DNG] Enlightenment anyone? ;)

[Dave Turner]

On 13/02/16 20:53, asbesto wrote:

Enlightenment.

FANTASTIC desktop manager. Very lightweight, very beautiful and
very usable.

Is someone working on it? ;)

I know it can be compiled without the systemd shit.

;)


I have tried it a couple of times in the past.
I hated it!
Luckily we still have choice...

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI

[Dave Turner]

Simon old chap, we are ALL geeks here! And thus by definition on the 
edge of just about all normal spectra...
I think Rainer is probably diametrically opposite to me on the weirdo 
spectrum!


DaveT

On 04/02/16 13:27, Simon Hobson wrote:

Didier Kryn  wrote:


for the real "general case",
someone who blindly trusts the advice of strangers despite he doesn't
understand it will end up getting himself in trouble sooner or later and
probably rather sooner than later.

Eg nearly any client of a physician, a lawyer...

:-)

It's hard to work out whether Rainer is trolling or just really out of touch 
with the real world.

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Dave Turner]

You buy the laptop with Windows 10 installed, make sure everything works 
then install the distro of your choice.

No dual-booting.
VeryPC in the UK make small eco-friendly desktops that they are happy to 
sell without an OS.

I might get one when the iMac finally breaks.

You could always have a nice hefty server in the loft and go thin-client...

DaveT

On 26/01/16 18:46, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi All,

Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
installed.

Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
need to buy a new machine?

Edward
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[DNG] OpenBSD doas - was Re: Beware

[Dave Turner]

Has anybody had a good look at the new OpenBSD 'doas' replacement for sudo?
I hope doas will be as easy to set up as they claim, sudo can be a bit 
of a pain to setup exactly how you want it.


DaveT

On 19/01/16 21:58, Stephanie Daugherty wrote:


On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Arnt Karlsen > wrote:


..why did Debian kill ssh into localhost?
Is su or sudo safer than ssh nowadays?



Because the architecture of Linux gurantees that root has a fixed 
account name, fixed UID, and, if in a server environment, will be 
essentially a shared account, it's considered a long standing best 
practice to not let people log in directly as root, at least not 
remotely. This makes sure there's an audit trail of logging in with 
the unprivileged user and then elevating to root, rather than just the 
root login that doesn't indicate which of possibly several users was 
responsible. It also means a brute force against the root account is 
more difficult to automate, since you need to attack an umprivledged 
account first, and it offers a little bit of protection against a weak 
root password.


sudo is generally the accepted way in the ubuntu world as well as in 
most server environments these days, since the audit trail will record 
exactly what commands were elevated and by who, and since only a 
single command is run with elevated permissions, therefore dropping 
back to an unprivledged command prompt after each elevated command.


su was the best practice long before sudo or even Linux ever existed, 
and is still perfectly acceptable for hobbyists, desktops, and others 
where there's exactly one *competent* admin for each machine. and may 
even be a viable option in other, more controlled environments that 
don't want to use sudo. Historically, on other *nixes, it was gated 
with the "wheel" group, (and this can be done on Linux as well if the 
admin wants to configure it this way).


Obviously, this has the additional advantage that, through some 
tinkering with PAM, you can implement additional authentication 
requirements just on root access - for example, you might let your 
admins log in and look around with just their SSH key, but require 
them to have an additional password or multifactor authentication 
token to access root privileges.





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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Dave Turner]

I use lilo on assorted tired old bits of kit.
The fact it can't cope with GPT and what have you isn't a problem.
I will be using lilo on old kit until they fall over.

Grub1 was getting a bit tired. I can understand why they felt grub2 was
needed.
I was running debian unstable during the changeover from grub to grub2.
What fun was had! For a couple of weeks you were never sure if your
computer would boot after an upgrade.
I got really good at working around that.

DaveT

(managed to hit reply instead of reply to list! oops)

 On 19/01/16 16:02, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 15:48:40 -
"dev1fanboy"  wrote:


Hopefully something will happen with it, personally I'd use grub but
it does some fancy stuff I'm not a fan of.

Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors, nice
images, and hiding the fact that processes are being instantiated.

What's so sad is that grub 1 was wonderful. One file, everything was
easy and obvious. Grub2 has different but similar executables, and you
go traipsing all over a tree of numbered files to change every little
thing, or else unauthorizedly change the already compiled version and
hope nothing overrides it.

SteveT

Steve Litt
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] That one unsupported app: was Predictable Network Interface Names - Stupid or good idea?

[Dave Turner]

All the BSDs have the packages I want and need, except working WiFi for 
laptops!

My main desktop is an old Intel iMac. FreeBSD and PC-BSD would not install.
I could not get sound to work on NetBSD and OpenBSD.
So the old iMac runs debian jessie systemd and all.

My old laptop is now running devuan again, but this time as the Dom0 for 
a xen hypervisor that will run NetBSD. My hope is that xen will pass on 
the WiFi connection so that I have a NetBSD laptop with working WiFi. 
We'll see!
So far I'm not sure the xen part is quite as it should be, I need to 
spend some more time with the docs.


DaveT




On 11/01/16 00:15, Stephanie Daugherty wrote:
OpenBSD's overall stance on virtualization makes it a poor choice for 
a desktop OS unfortunately. I partially understand the reasoning, 
however, given the limits of software support on the *BSDs in general, 
and OpenBSD in particular, the lack of virtualization options 
effectively makes it unusable for a substantial number of users.


The situation on FreeBSD seems a little better though, and I've 
seriously considered making that switch.







On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com 
<mailto:sl...@troubleshooters.com>> wrote:


On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 21:55:48 +0000
    Dave Turner <dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk
<mailto:dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>> wrote:

> Slackware is hard work when you have been used to the ease of debian
> for so many years...
> Eventually it all worked OK until one particular bit of music
> composition software I like to use could only be found in
> Slackbuilds, and it would not install even after I did some editing
> of the scripts. I gave up and installed devuan again.

Devuan is an excellent distro and I applaud you for installing it.

If you ever find that one app that you can't install on Devuan, just
run a VM or container that *does* do that app right, and run that one
app there.

The entire reason why I didn't migrate to OpenBSD and happily stay
there in September 2014 is because OpenBSD has no functional and
working Qemu, and shows little motivation to change that. So I'd have
to permanently live without those couple programs I needed. Normal
Linuxes enable you to run other distros in VMs or containers, so
choose
the best one, even if it won't do your favorite program.

SteveT

Steve Litt
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] FW: support for merged /usr in Debian

[Dave Turner]

Yes, I agree completely.
Getting all the anti-systemd distros working together would be a very 
good thing.


DaveT

On 11/01/16 01:05, da...@olansa.co.uk wrote:

This looks extremely desirable. Unfortunately we are not yet at the
point where there are two parallel threads of Gnu/Linux (since they
persist to use that name) development. RedHat and Debian are still the
major driving force, due to their large number of developpers. And
Devuan is still derived from Debian. I guess some agreement would be
necessary amongst a number of anti-systemd distros to reach that goal.

Didier


This agreement really ought to happen. I would suggest going further, 
inviting the developers of the main non-systemd inits to join as well.


The "Init Freedom" badge was a great idea for a rallying banner, but 
it won't go far without a cross-distro/init consensus. Something like 
that won't build itself. How should we begin?


David H
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Re: [DNG] Predictable Network Interface Names - Stupid or good idea?

[Dave Turner]

Slackware is hard work when you have been used to the ease of debian for 
so many years...
Eventually it all worked OK until one particular bit of music 
composition software I like to use could only be found in Slackbuilds, 
and it would not install even after I did some editing of the scripts.

I gave up and installed devuan again.

DaveT

On 09/01/16 15:26, Marlon Nunes wrote:

On 2016-01-09 11:42, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 12:41:27 +0100
Anto  wrote:

[snip]

[snip]

First of all, some of the most anti-systemd distros, like Void and
Gentoo and Funtoo, use the new naming convention. Second, once you
really know the new ip command (and forget the old ifconfig stuff), you
can pretty much figure everything out. For instance, let's say you're
an unlucky soul who has an unfathomable broadcom wifi in his laptop,
and rather than becoming the king of blacklisting and exotic drivers,
you use a dongle. You could run this command very early in your boot,
so that you always know the device name of the dongle and can put it
into your shellscripts:


So ENTER the - S L A C K W A R E  Linux - where Everything works the 
same nice way as always, since 1993 end beyond: 
ftp://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/slackware/slackware64-current/ChangeLog.txt





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Re: [DNG] Proposals for an xfce-desktop-lite

[Dave Turner]

Messing with xfce sounds like mission-creep to me.
Does xfce need messing with in any way to get rid of systemd dependencies?
Then do it.
Otherwise, leave well alone.

I run debian jessie with systemd on my iMac and my main laptop because 
they need to work.
Just about all packages seem to have many more dependencies than they 
used to.

I don't like it, but for the moment that is how it is.

For 'normal' users xfce is a good choice.
I use xfce fluxbox and ctwm depending on mood, tasks, and hardware.

DaveT


On 29/12/15 18:44, richard lucassen wrote:

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:29:21 +0100
Adam Borowski  wrote:


On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 09:46:04AM +0100, richard lucassen wrote:

Please do not forget WindowMaker which has been a lightweight,
highly configurable and stable wm for many years.

I used to swear by it, somewhere around 1998-2000.  Then, out of
nostalgia, I recently given it a look -- and failed to find a
_single_ improvement.

There are some small changes, or "improvements" if you like, but it
worked well in 1997 and it still works well in 2015. The only thing you
can add is bloatware IMHO ;-)


On the other hand, there are regressions -- it
doesn't play well with Debian menu anymore.

You may be right, I have no idea, simply because I don't use the menu.
IIRC there is a Debian menu after a fresh install, bus as I copy the
GNUstep dir right after a fresh install I will probably never know :)

R.



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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii: libdbus-1-3 problems - FIXED

[Dave Turner]

Mitt,

Thanks for that!
I added it into sources.list and now have a working system that just 
needs the final fettling doing to be back to how it was.


I had seen references to angband.pl on here but hadn't realised how 
essential it now is if you want a working desktop!


DaveT
using debian jessie including systemd on the laptop and Apple iMac that 
must work

and devuan ascii on the laptop I don't mind breaking on a regular basis.


On 05/12/15 19:45, Mitt Green wrote:

‎Hi,

Choose 1.10 versions from here:
http://angband.pl/debian/pool/main/d/dbus/

You might even want to add this repository to
sources.list
(deb http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd-unstable main)

Cheers,

Mitt



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[DNG] devuan ascii: libdbus-1-3 problems

[Dave Turner]

I've been running devuan ascii on my laptop for some time. Mainly it 
works and upgrades without problems but libdbus-1-3 is stuck at 
v1.8.something-devuan and libdbus-1-3 and other stuff needs 1.9.13 or 
higher. It has been like that for some weeks - I assume that getting it 
all working is giving the developers a  lot of work to do!


xorg, vlc, pulseaudio etc on my system would upgrade if the right 
versions of libdbus-1-3 and dbus were available.

After some thought I downloaded the dbus deb file from debian sid.

Bad move! My system is trashed again! Never mind, I can do a fresh install.

DaveT
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Re: [DNG] I never realised udev was that bad until now

[Dave Turner]

No such shenanigans needed on Macs!
The Android developer docs say just plug it in and it will work.
I do hope it is true!

(the only reason I won't buy another Mac is the loss of 'Spaces' from 
OSX. I like multiple workspaces)


On 25/11/15 21:41, John Morris wrote:

On Wed, 2015-11-25 at 19:22 +, Dave Turner wrote:


Now I am trying my hand at Android development I find udev to be truly
vile. What idiot decided that you have to list your device in the
/etc/udev/rules.d/51-android.rules file before you can connect to it?
The file is already 13.7kB, bound to get larger with time, and I had to
use dmesg to find the vendor id for the cheap tablet I am using and add
it in!

Not much to be done for it, just a consequence of how Android and USB
work.  This is why on Window you always need a special USB driver for
the specific device, that is how it gets the USB ID info for your
device.  On Linux there is just a big file of known USB identifiers for
things like adb since we just assume the vendors are not going to help
with Linux support.

Lots of good reasons to hate on udev, this isn't one.  The fact
the .rules files it uses almost have to be intentionally designed to
resist human reading and editing is a good reason.  :)


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[DNG] I never realised udev was that bad until now

[Dave Turner]

udev was just one of those things like dbus or systemd. Part of linux, I 
had a vague dislike of them but not enough to actively try and avoid 
them - apart from systemd of course!


Now I am trying my hand at Android development I find udev to be truly 
vile. What idiot decided that you have to list your device in the 
/etc/udev/rules.d/51-android.rules file before you can connect to it? 
The file is already 13.7kB, bound to get larger with time, and I had to 
use dmesg to find the vendor id for the cheap tablet I am using and add 
it in!


It is badly thought out from the beginning.

I hope the vdev I have read about on here isn't like that...


DaveT
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[DNG] devuan Ceres on my old iMac became too painful

[Dave Turner]

devuan alpha and Xfce wouldn't play nicely on my old 6,1 24" iMac.
ctwm worked well but the normal people in the house were not at all happy.
Perhaps moving on to devuan Ceres would be good? All the latest stuff 
and Xfce is bound to work!

No.
Worse off if anything. Many heavy-duty changes as debian is further 
polluted by systemd and also morphed into becoming devuan.

Ah well, it's not called 'unstable' for nothing!

In my mission to avoid systemd I even tried OpenBSD and NetBSD, I 
couldn't make sound work on either of them. FreeBSD fails to even 
install because of the peculiar 32bit EFI that my early Intel iMac has.


With a heavy heart I installed debian jessie, systemd and all.
Everything including Xfce works, it is debian after all so of course it 
works, but the dependencies are horrific.
And, should anybody need to know how to install on an aged iMac, you 
have start with debian 6 squeeze because that is the latest version that 
will boot from CD.
Do a minimal install without X11 because then you need to upgrade to 
debian 7 wheezy, and then do the same again to get to debian 8 jessie.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] strange characters when using 'examine' in aptitude

[Dave Turner]

Another step forward, apt-get dist-upgrade fixed two of the held-back 
packages.


On 28/08/15 20:13, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:
I do not know a solution for this behavior but you do not need 
aptitude in this situation you can do apt-get dist-upgrade to fix 
those upgrades that get held back for various reasons.



Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:45:51 +0100
From: Dave Turnerdave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk
To:dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: [DNG] strange characters when using 'examine' in aptitude
Message-ID:55e011af.6050...@barradas.free-online.co.uk
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

I run devuan unstable 'ceres' on my Toshiba laptop and my iMac.
It all works with just a bit of weirdness.
I use apt-get update  apt-get upgrade and then use aptitude to fix those
upgrades that get held back for various reasons.
Whenever I highlight one of the held back packages and press 'e' to
examine the various possibilities the names of the packages to be
removed or installed are mangled with block characters and/or assorted
characters from other non-Latin1 character sets. Upside down question
marks etc.

Any ideas what is going on?

I am using the slim login manager and then depending on my mood fluxbox,
xfce, or lumina - the new desktop from pc-bsd.


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Re: [DNG] strange characters when using 'examine' in aptitude

[Dave Turner]

Isaac,
ncurses-term and ncurses-base are installed.
the output of

 env |grep -e TERM -e LC -e LANG -e LOCALE

is TERM=xterm
LANG=en_GB.UTF-8
LANGUAGE=en_GB:en
COLORTERM=xfce4-terminal

my laptop is now only running xfce4, and slim is gone because I prefer 
to login into a terminal and then startx when I want to / need to.


DaveT

On 29/08/15 01:37, Isaac Dunham wrote:

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 08:45:51AM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:

I run devuan unstable 'ceres' on my Toshiba laptop and my iMac.
It all works with just a bit of weirdness.
I use apt-get update  apt-get upgrade and then use aptitude to fix those
upgrades that get held back for various reasons.
Whenever I highlight one of the held back packages and press 'e' to examine
the various possibilities the names of the packages to be removed or
installed are mangled with block characters and/or assorted characters from
other non-Latin1 character sets. Upside down question marks etc.

Any ideas what is going on?

I am using the slim login manager and then depending on my mood fluxbox,
xfce, or lumina - the new desktop from pc-bsd.

What's your terminal?
Are ncurses-term and ncurses-base installed?
What does this command output:
  env |grep -e TERM -e LC -e LANG -e LOCALE

I ask these because I'm *guessing* that it's one of the following:
-you don't have TERM pointing to an installed  correct termcap/terminfo
database
-your localization is screwy
-you have the wrong fonts (not likely unless it's a plain xlib terminal)


HTH,
Isaac Dunham



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[DNG] strange characters when using 'examine' in aptitude

[Dave Turner]

I run devuan unstable 'ceres' on my Toshiba laptop and my iMac.
It all works with just a bit of weirdness.
I use apt-get update  apt-get upgrade and then use aptitude to fix those 
upgrades that get held back for various reasons.
Whenever I highlight one of the held back packages and press 'e' to 
examine the various possibilities the names of the packages to be 
removed or installed are mangled with block characters and/or assorted 
characters from other non-Latin1 character sets. Upside down question 
marks etc.


Any ideas what is going on?

I am using the slim login manager and then depending on my mood fluxbox, 
xfce, or lumina - the new desktop from pc-bsd.

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Re: [DNG] strange characters when using 'examine' in aptitude

[Dave Turner]

console-data was not installed so I installed it.
Configured it. No difference.
Rebooted. No difference.
Rummaged around the interweb found assorted files to look at, 
reconfigured locale, had another go at configuring the keyboard. Rebooted.

No difference!

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion Aitor. It is all part of the fun of 
running 'unstable'.

I'll keep surfing.

DaveT


On 28/08/15 13:34, aitor_czr wrote:

Try with:

# dpkg-reconfigure console-data

Aitor.

On 28/08/15 13:21, Dave Turner 
dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk wrote:

I run devuan unstable 'ceres' on my Toshiba laptop and my iMac.
It all works with just a bit of weirdness.
I use apt-get update  apt-get upgrade and then use aptitude to fix those
upgrades that get held back for various reasons.
Whenever I highlight one of the held back packages and press 'e' to
examine the various possibilities the names of the packages to be
removed or installed are mangled with block characters and/or assorted
characters from other non-Latin1 character sets. Upside down question
marks etc.

Any ideas what is going on?

I am using the slim login manager and then depending on my mood fluxbox,
xfce, or lumina - the new desktop from pc-bsd.




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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Dave Turner]

I always thought su was the wrong way to go about things.
Give me sudo every time.
(there are assorted long discussions about su vs sudo out there on the 
interweb, let's not repeat them here!)

Just be glad we still have a choice!

DaveT

On 28/08/15 16:32, Laurent Bercot wrote:

On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote:

https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/


 The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a
broken concept.
 What he conveniently forgets, of course, is that having a
real root session with a separated environment, which is
what the new feature does, could already be achieved... by
logging in as root.

 Duh!

 So, this is just yet another propaganda stunt.
 su sucks. See? UNIX sucks! And now systemd can do so much
better than UNIX: it gives you real root sessions that do not
leak anything from the user environment.
 But, um, can't UNIX already do that ?...
 NO NO NO systemd does it better because insert confusing
buzzwords that will bamboozle executives and journalists

 It's been like this since day 1 of systemd, and I'm not
expecting it to change any time soon.



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Re: [DNG] Systemd Shims

[Dave Turner]

Edward,

This grumpy old man who is so old he started coding when BASIC had line 
numbers and 8bit Motorola 6800 assembler was state of the art says:-

Don't let others harden the code.
Do it properly from the start.
After many years or using C and C++ my working life is now spent writing 
Perl.
Sometimes it irritates me, but when one line of Perl does what a sheet 
of A4 full of C can do, well, that cheers me up!
And don't forget, you can inline Perl into C to handle those awkward 
bits, and you can inline C into Perl to make that bit go faster.


DaveT

On 19/08/15 18:14, Edward Bartolo wrote:

I am not assuming anything and understand the risks of buffer
overflows. The first step I am taking is to make the code function.
The second step is further debug it until it behaves properly and the
third step is to correct any potential security issues. As anyone can
understand, projects, whatever they are, are not completed in one
step. Furthermore, debugging is a lengthy process and part of it is
removing potential security holes.

As to studying other languages, here, you are NOT talking to a youth
in his twenties or his teens, but to a 48 year old. Learning a new
language is a lengthy process and the ones I know are far more than
enough for what I do.

Devuan's team of developers is not in any way obliged to accept my
code. Any developer who may feel the need to harden the code is free
to do so.

Thanks

On 19/08/2015, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote:

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 06:46:36PM +0200, Laurent Bercot wrote:

On 19/08/2015 15:29, Edward Bartolo wrote:

This is the completed C backend with all functions tested to work. Any
suggestions as to modifications are welcome.

  OK, someone has to be the bad guy. Let it be me.

  First, please note that what I'm saying is not meant to discourage you.
I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to contribute open source
software. What I'm saying is meant to make you realize that writing
secure software is difficult, especially in C/Unix, which is full of
pitfalls. As long as you're unfamiliar with the C/Unix API and all its
standard traps, I would advise you to refrain from writing code that
is going to be run as root; if you want to be operational right away
and contribute system software right now, it's probably easier to stick
to higher-level languages, such as Perl, Python, or whatever the FotM
interpreted language is at this time. It won't be as satisfying, and the
programs won't be as efficient, but it will be safer.

Or try some of the less known, but compiled, efficient, strongly and
securely type-checked languages such as Modula 3 or OCaml.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] Mission Creap

[Dave Turner]

On 08/08/15 13:46, Riccardo Boninsegna wrote:

On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Dave Turner
dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk wrote:

various XFCE irritations for normal people made me do a full debian jessie 
install with systemd and all. I s wish I hadn't!
XFCE doesn't work at all.

Devuan Testing installs systemd by default, but it's easy to remove
without breaking anything,
and after installing pm-utils XFCE works perfectly on my computer!


I removed systemd from Devuan Testing without breaking anything.
The XFCE user problems such as not being able to shutdown or only able 
to shutdown after inputting your password despite 'sudo' being setup 
correctly seems to be a result of installing XFCE 4.12 on my iMac no 
matter which linux distro it is...

and pm-utils is installed!

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Re: [DNG] Mission Creap

[Dave Turner]

Miles,

Remember that devuan is still at Aplha2.
Perhaps Beta 1 will be free of systemd, but until then, aptitude is your 
friend!


DaveT

On 08/08/15 15:12, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Riccardo Boninsegna wrote:

On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Dave Turner
dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk wrote:
various XFCE irritations for normal people made me do a full debian 
jessie install with systemd and all. I s wish I hadn't!

XFCE doesn't work at all.

Devuan Testing installs systemd by default, but it's easy to remove
without breaking anything,
and after installing pm-utils XFCE works perfectly on my computer!


Wait, what

I thought a primary motivation for Devuan was to NOT install systemd 
by default.


Miles Fidelman





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Re: [DNG] Systemd Shims

[Dave Turner]

From the look of Mark's website I was a bit disappointed not to find a 
link to www.davidicke.com!
But, if the quick'n'dirty pragmatic solution is systemd shims then so be 
it as far as I am concerned.


DaveT


On 08/08/15 18:14, Go Linux wrote:

On Sat, 8/8/15, Mark S Bilk m...@cosmicpenguin.com wrote:

  Subject: [DNG] Systemd Shims
  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
  Date: Saturday, August 8, 2015, 11:49 AM
  
  [cut]


  So please drop the fear of contamination, and consider the shims as a simple, 
inexpensive
  and effective wall of defense against systemd.
  
   Mark




Interesting first post.  I don't see how becoming entangled forever with 
systemd is a solution.  Get to know Mark better at the URL implied in his email 
before embracing his 'wisdom'.

golinux
  
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Re: [DNG] Mission Creap

[Dave Turner]

On 08/08/15 13:58, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

Dave Turner dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk writes:

[many words]

This seems to boil down to: In its present state, I consider Devuan
unusable. Was that what you actually meant to say?
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Not at all!

Devuan Alpha worked perfectly well for me, but not for the normal
people that use my iMac. They expect to click shutdown and have the
computer shutdown, no asking for passwords, no rebooting instead of
shutting down.
None of us on this mailing list are what the rest of the world thinks
of as 'normal people', we are sad-techie geeks one and all.

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Dave Turner]

What he said!

My laptop and my desktop will be easy to use.
Multi-user systems are a different kettle of fish. Security has to take 
to take precedence, but make it too difficult and nobody will use your 
new OS in the first place...


DaveT

On 27/07/15 16:49, Robert Storey wrote:


  On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
  sl...@troubleshooters.com mailto:sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
  You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
  inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command.
  Works without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself
  if more than 20 people want it.

 Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.

Well, I definitely want it. Not sure if I'm counted in the original 
three, or if I make four.


2015-07-27 11:45 GMT+02:00 Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org 
mailto:jaro...@dyne.org:

 On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, Svante Signell wrote:
 On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
  If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
  automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot 
is an

  inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.

No one is more paranoid when it comes to security than me. But as for 
the security risk of automount, I only see it as a problem if we are 
talking about a multi-user system in an organization. A single user at 
home is a likely scenario for many of us.


Ideally, automount is something that a user should be able to easily 
configure. If you'd rather have click-to-mount or fully manual mount, 
that's fine. I don't see why it should be any more difficult than 
editing a text configuration file (or clicking a box in a gui) to 
change the setting.


cheers,
Robert





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Re: [DNG] My experience with Devuan Alpha2

[Dave Turner]

On 01/07/15 15:02, Mitt wrote:



Hey, Dave

Check out once you have /consolekit/ installed, then create a .xinitrc 
file in your home folder, write there *startxfce4 --with-ck-launch* 
and start your session with *xinit *command instead of *startx*.


You can also remove /systemd-shim /as well as /libsystemd0 /(it has 
some dependencies, I use /gvfs /from wheezy).


Hope this helps,

Mitt


Thanks Mitt, systemd-shim is now gone!
libsystemd0 wanted to remove far too many packages including my newly 
installed hydrogen and anything to do with audio so that stays.

I read up on consolekit and didn't like the look of it...
Roll on Beta1!

I'm more of an unter-geek than an uber-geek and there were no proper 
user experiences reported here so I felt I should make a start. If you 
have been lurking on the devuan list to see what is going on you will 
probably be alright with it, as I am.
Can I fix it when it breaks big-time or seriously vexes me? Yes, but I 
have a life and would rather be riding one of my Harleys or rebuilding  
my WLA45 chopper...


DaveT
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[DNG] My experience with Devuan Alpha2

[Dave Turner]

I had debian wheezy installed on my late 2006 intel iMac, using 
wheezy-backports for things like LibreOffice and netbsd pkgsrc for 
things not in backports such as the hydrogen drum synth.


I migrated to Devuan Alpha2 using devuan-baseconf.deb.
Good News: it works!
Irritations: I can't shutdown from Xfce4 anymore, I can only logout.
 And thunar would not automount a USB drive.

I removed the lightdm greeter I had installed on wheezy so I could 
shutdown from Xfce4. I now use startx.

Watching the boot messages there was systemd!
I used aptitude to get rid of systemd-libpamd and anything else systemd.
Only systemd-shim and libsystemd0 remain.
Can I get rid of both of them?

The internet doesn't seem to know how to make Xfce4 let you shutdown or 
automount, or when th einternet does suggest something there is so much 
faffing about using pmount or whatever I feel disinclined to try it.

Does anybody here know how to do it?

My iMac gets used by normal people as well as me so I really do need a 
nice setup for them.

Any ideas on sensible alternatives?
I use fluxbox on my laptop but that is too much for them to cope with.

DaveT

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