Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 10:45:19 +0200 Antony Stone wrote: > On Tuesday 13 June 2017 08:19:54 Jaromil wrote: > > but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder > > user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or > > Debian which are offering that. > > So, you're saying that if you want Gnome, you have to use systemd - > no way round that? Yes, with a caveat. The caveat is that some distros, such as Funtoo, have gone into Gnome and turned off, removed or stubbed calls to systemd. > > > as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our > > distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can > > work without systemd. > > Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question > "what makes a DE dependent on systemd?" When the DE uses parts of systemd's API or interface or whatever you want to call it, that causes the dependency. Such use is a choice by the DE programmers, as mentioned by Hendrik. One might wonder why the DE programmers would insist on an API from an early-boot process. Why should the DE know about the init or vice versa? The technical answer is that they shouldn't: No reasonable architectural design would favor such interdependency. This is not a technological issue: It's something else. Consider that the people encouraging Gnome<->systemd integration are Gnome, systemd, FreeDesktop.Org and Red Hat, those are the web pages you should look at. Here's my favorite explanation: http://asay.blogspot.ru/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html In the preceding, search down the page for the first occurrence of the word "complexity". I'd like to point out one more thing: There's a price for giving up systemd. If a specific look and feel, or a specific workflow, or a specific program is of higher priority than your computer having a sane software architecture with modularity, encapsulation, interchangeable parts, DIY-friendliness and Linux-obvious testpoints, then a systemd distro is probably your best choice. However, if a reasonable software architecture is of a higher priority, then the way to handle it is to "just say no" to software trying to force you into a specific init system (systemd). I'm pretty sure a Gnome or KDE user could become extremely efficient with LXDE or Xfce or Openbox + dmenu or fvwm or several others GOSFUIs (http://troubleshooters.com/linux/gosfui.htm). Humans are remarkably capable to work around their equipment (in this case the GOSFUI). Who hasn't regularly driven a bicycle that steered to the left and a car with not-so-good brakes? Switching between Gnome, KDE, LXDE and Xfce is remarkably easy for the person who adopts the belief that [s]he is in charge of the computer, and not vice versa. The Gnome-liking person not capable of adopting that belief belongs on a systemd-based distro, or better yet, Microsoft Windows, which is even more a path of least resistance. SteveT Steve Litt June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 10:45:19AM +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > > Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question "what > makes a DE dependent on systemd?" > The decision by the developers to use its interfaces instead of the traditional ones. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
On Tuesday 13 June 2017 08:19:54 Jaromil wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jun 2017, Antony Stone wrote: > > So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches > > due to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)? > > > > Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian > > Jessie would provide them? > > in brief I think we can pretty much anticipate that KDE will work > great on future Devuan distributions, also according to recent tests > made by some enthusiastic members of our community using Plasma on > ASCII. Okay, thanks for the confirmation. > but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder > user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or Debian > which are offering that. So, you're saying that if you want Gnome, you have to use systemd - no way round that? > as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our > distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can > work without systemd. Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question "what makes a DE dependent on systemd?" Thanks for responding (now that I found the right list to ask on). Antony. -- René Descartes walks in to a bar. The barman asks him "Do you want a drink?" Descartes says "I think not," and disappears. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
hi Antony, On Mon, 12 Jun 2017, Antony Stone wrote: > So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches due > to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)? > > Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian > Jessie > would provide them? in brief I think we can pretty much anticipate that KDE will work great on future Devuan distributions, also according to recent tests made by some enthusiastic members of our community using Plasma on ASCII. but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or Debian which are offering that. the reason why there wasn't much progress made on this front is that in Jessie we concentrated on two main priorities: - establish a solid team and infrastructure to make Devuan born - establish a sustainable strategy to remove systemd dependencies and monitor future ones sneaking in, while granting a reliable transition from Debian 7 and 8 to Devuan 1 as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can work without systemd. This way we also hope to facilitate the work of DE developers, which are welcome to get in touch with us, by providing a clean and familiar environment where to triage systemd-free functionalities. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Gnome, KDE?
Hi. https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-2nd-candidate-announce-050517 I notice that the above RC2 release notes say "Removed GNOME, KDE, and Cinnamon as DE options in tasksel. These three DEs are still (mostly) installable after the installation is complete, but they are known to suffer from some glitches due to the lack of systemd" I don't see any comment at all about DEs in the LTS 1.0 announcement: https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-jessie-announce-052517 However, they're not available during a DVD installation of Devuan (although I notice that KDE at least does get neatly upgraded if you do a Debian Wheezy -> Devuan Jessie online upgrade). So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches due to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)? Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian Jessie would provide them? Thanks, Antony. -- I don't know, maybe if we all waited then cosmic rays would write all our software for us. Of course it might take a while. - Ron Minnich, Los Alamos National Laboratory Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
