Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-07-05 Thread Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
On 31.01.2016 17:17, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit :
>>I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in
>> libsystemd0.  I have no idea what.
> I made some trials.
> 
> On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit
> and gvfs.

Have you tried building gvfs w/ --disable-libsystemd-login ?

According to the code, it's just for checking the current session's
seat name against a drive's (none at all is considered a match).


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-03 Thread Haines Brown 
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:04:26AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote:
> I suspect I could remove the /lib/systemd/ directory entirely, and it
> might block any systemd-udev from changing network interface name, and
> systemd=logind from freezing user's frozen desktop.
> 
> So let me ask: if I delete the directory and its contents, will I still
> have a functioning Sid system?

Not having received an answer, I went ahead and did it. It had several
effects: a) the reported bug that had made it difficult to shutdown the X
server disappeared, b) the boot no longer goes over the a higher
resolution but remains VGA, c) trying to startx as user now produces
error that screen can't be found, d) now the freeze of the desktop
affects root as well.

I have a choice: re-install Sid from scratch or install devuan. I'd much
rather do the latter, but I'd prefer to wait for the beta. So let me ask
the question that can't be answered: when is the beta likely to surface?
Within a month or so or not likely until well after mid year?
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-03 Thread Rainer Weikusat 
Haines Brown  writes:
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:04:26AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote:
>> I suspect I could remove the /lib/systemd/ directory entirely, and it
>> might block any systemd-udev from changing network interface name, and
>> systemd=logind from freezing user's frozen desktop.
>> 
>> So let me ask: if I delete the directory and its contents, will I still
>> have a functioning Sid system?
>
> Not having received an answer,

I answered both of your questions.
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-03 Thread Haines Brown 
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 03:05:52PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Haines Brown  writes:
> > On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:04:26AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote:
> > Not having received an answer,
> 
> I answered both of your questions.

My apologies. Your message for some reason did not show up, but I
managed to find get it. Your helpful reply has convinced me to replace
my Debian Sid with Devuan alpha2.
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-02 Thread Rainer Weikusat 
Simon Wise  writes:

[...]

> If you have the dedication to GUI and the resources of a global
> mega-corporation it is possible to make a similar GUI actually respect
> the under-lying settings ... but it is incredibly hard work, way
> beyond almost any organisation. OSX did achieve this

Not at all, actually. It just means the front-end code has to work
directly with the backend config files instead of storing its
configuration in some more 'flashy' format, eg, xml-files or some ad hoc
created binary format and then blindly overwriting the 'engine'
configuration whenever the front-end configuration changes. I've
implemented something like this in the past for creating IPsec VPN
configurations via web GUI while retaining fully editable racoon
configuration files in the backend.

I conjecture this runs afoul of the "everything anybody else ever did
was completely wrong" aka "don't understand a word of it, what a
brainless mess" approach people whose experience is inversely
proportional to their self-esteem like to take towards anything.

NB: That's a perfectly stable condition of wanton ignorance and can be
kept up for fourty years in a row.
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-02 Thread Rainer Weikusat 
Didier Kryn  writes:
> Le 02/02/2016 04:39, Simon Wise a écrit :
>> so looking at apt.conf I see as the very first text 'DESCRIPTION'

[...]

>> FILES
>>/etc/apt/apt.conf
>>APT configuration file. Configuration Item:
>>Dir::Etc::Main.
>>
>> /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/
>>APT configuration file fragments. Configuration Item:
>>Dir::Etc::Parts.
>
> This is also in man apt.conf, but - call me an idiot - I still
> can't make sense of it. What the hell is the meaning of the words
> Dir', 'Etc', 'Main' and 'Parts'? Why the hell do '::' translate to '/'
> ? What document did you learn that "language" from?

:: is used as component separator in the hierarchical namespaces of C++
and Perl (these are the two I know of). The Dir ('directory') is a bit
stupidly name as it apparently means "top-level configuration section
specifying pathnames'. 'Etc' means 'configuration stuff' (cf /etc),
consequently,

Dir::Etc::Main

is the pathname of the main configuration file and

Dir::Etc::Parts

that of a directory containing additional configuration-file snippets
supposed to be included into the main configuration.

A {}-based notation is also supported, ie,

Dir::Etc::Main

is the short form of

Dir {
Etc {
Main {
}
   }
}

The syntax is explained in the apt.conf(5) manpage.
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-01 Thread Didier Kryn 

Le 31/01/2016 23:59, Go Linux a écrit :

  I must check
for default-jre and gimp because both are pretty usefull.
Yep, default-jre, default-jre-headless and gimp are installed. If I 
try to remove libsystemd0, it only requires to remove also gvfs, 
gvfs-daemons and gvfs-fuse, but, as explained before, xfce4 needs them. 
The funny thing is that now it doesn't ask me to remove policykit I 
probably made an error in my first trial.


If you do a lot of sound manipulation, this is an area in which I 
can't help. Linux sound is a nightmare to me and I never found a 
sensible description of it all, so using pulseaudio by default because 
it mostly works out of the box. But there was a thread about it one or 
two weeks ago...


Didier

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-01 Thread Florian Zieboll 
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 12:47:51 +0100
Didier Kryn  wrote:

>  Apparently synaptic keeps its config in its own config file 
> /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99synaptic. Do you mean synaptic reads all config 
> files in order, and since 99synaptic is the last, it can override all 
> previous settings? 

For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends
--no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends.
The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*):

  APT::Install-Recommends "0";
  APT::Install-Recommends "1";

This will install the recommends, the other way around it won't.
Apparently there's still some behavior left in modern Linux that is
coherent with an autistic mindset, hahaha.

> I must confess I don't understand how this set of 
> config files is processed; there are quite a lot of files in 
> etc/apt/apt.conf.d/. There's a man for apt.conf, which doesn't exist
> and no man for apt.conf.d, which exists!

As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just

  $ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/ 

without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is all
about easier deployment (and automated removal) of configurations - like
hitting some button on a shady website to add distribution independent
repositories to the sources.list. 

Regards,

Florian

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-01 Thread Simon Hobson 
Florian Zieboll  wrote:

> For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends
> --no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends.
> The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*):
> 
>  APT::Install-Recommends "0";
>  APT::Install-Recommends "1";
> 
> This will install the recommends, the other way around it won't.
> Apparently there's still some behavior left in modern Linux that is
> coherent with an autistic mindset, hahaha.

Makes sense to me too - first entry sets/resets option, next entry resets/sets 
the same option - the last one taking effect.

> As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just
> 
>  $ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/ 
> 
> without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is all
> about easier deployment (and automated removal) of configurations - like
> hitting some button on a shady website to add distribution independent
> repositories to the sources.list. 

More to the point, it means (in the general case) a number of packages can 
add/remove their own configs during package install/upgrade/removal just by 
adding/updating/removing "it's" config file from the conf.d directory. For 
another example, when installing Xen, it adds a file to Grub's conf.d to add 
the Xen boot options. Same with various web packages that put a file in 
/etc/apache2/conf.d.

IMO it's far better than trying to come up with some mechanism to *SAFELY* edit 
a shared config file.

It also means the user/admin can add their own config file, and if they name it 
to sort last then they can override any other default settings - but without 
impacting on the ability of a package to update it's own file. Once you get 
into editing the package supplied config file then upgrading gets a bit less 
automatic.

So overall I think this is "a good thing" - even though it does have one or two 
downsides.

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-01 Thread Simon Wise 

On 02/02/16 01:58, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 01/02/2016 14:13, Simon Hobson a écrit :

Florian Zieboll  wrote:


For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends
--no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends.
The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*):

APT::Install-Recommends "0";
APT::Install-Recommends "1";

This will install the recommends, the other way around it won't.
Apparently there's still some behavior left in modern Linux that is
coherent with an autistic mindset, hahaha.

Makes sense to me too - first entry sets/resets option, next entry resets/sets
the same option - the last one taking effect.


As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just

$ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/

without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is all
about easier deployment (and automated removal) of configurations - like
hitting some button on a shady website to add distribution independent
repositories to the sources.list.

More to the point, it means (in the general case) a number of packages can
add/remove their own configs during package install/upgrade/removal just by
adding/updating/removing "it's" config file from the conf.d directory. For
another example, when installing Xen, it adds a file to Grub's conf.d to add
the Xen boot options. Same with various web packages that put a file in
/etc/apache2/conf.d.

IMO it's far better than trying to come up with some mechanism to *SAFELY*
edit a shared config file.

It also means the user/admin can add their own config file, and if they name
it to sort last then they can override any other default settings - but
without impacting on the ability of a package to update it's own file. Once
you get into editing the package supplied config file then upgrading gets a
bit less automatic.

So overall I think this is "a good thing" - even though it does have one or
two downsides.


very much so, on both counts. The only two alternatives are a README telling the 
user to go and edit certain files before using the package ... unpopular and not 
appropriate for many use cases, or introduce a centralised API that holds all 
usual configurations in a database and provides standard tools to read and 
modify it. This was the Microsoft registry solution, it is also the Gnome 
solution. It is much more problematic in my view. And requires the kind of API 
standardisation that devuan rejects.


An explicit advantage of multi files over an attempt to make a single point of 
configuration via an API is the network manager in gnome. Using the GUI will 
edit the files you would otherwise use for the setting. This will often undo 
carefully established manual settings. These manual settings are needed even if 
you prefer the GUI because the GUI only provides the way to set up commonly 
needed network stuff. So if your network is uncommon you had better purge the 
GUI since it will not understand or respect the weird settings you need. If you 
have the dedication to GUI and the resources of a global mega-corporation it is 
possible to make a similar GUI actually respect the under-lying settings ... but 
it is incredibly hard work, way beyond almost any organisation. OSX did achieve 
this (I do not know if they kept it though), but with unthinkable hours of 
developer time I am sure, it was years of effort even for them.






I fully agree that "this is a good thing". There remains one question:

On my laptop the file 99synaptic contains only one line:
APT::Install-Recommends "false";

If all the files are read by all apt tools, then the setting meant for synaptic
applies to all apt tools. If i'd purge synaptic, then the behaviour of apt-get
might change. Does it make sense? It seems to me that this file should contain
some indication tnat the setting applies only to synaptic.


it is in the apt configuration, it changes apt behaviour, it is in no way 
limited to synaptic, it is some change that the synaptic package felt was needed 
different from default settings ... I do not know synaptic but perhaps it deals 
with recommended in its own way and thus needed to tell apt-get not to do it. 
The name of the file indicates that this is an apt configuration added by the 
synaptic package. Many packages are more polite and do include comments in their 
files, where comments are allowed at that point in the .conf file of course!


Synaptic and the direct apt tools both use the same back-end, Synaptic makes the 
assumption that it will replace apt-get for the user so sets apt up to suit 
usage via Synaptic. It cannot really make any other assumptions, and certainly 
should undo those modifications if it is removed. And the whole arrangement is a 
lot!! less error prone than if it attempted to edit an apt.conf file each time. 
With more effort Synaptic could perhaps leave apt settings untouched, but they 
assume they are providing the new, improved GUI front end and for most of

Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-01 Thread Simon Wise 

On 01/02/16 22:47, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 01/02/2016 12:09, Florian Zieboll a écrit :

florian@nulldevice:~$ cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01norecommend
APT::Install-Recommends "0";
APT::Install-Suggests "0";
#APT::AutoRemove::RecommendsImportant "0";

Synaptic will override this setting, if the relevant option is checked.


Apparently synaptic keeps its config in its own config file
/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99synaptic. Do you mean synaptic reads all config files in
order, and since 99synaptic is the last, it can override all previous settings?
I must confess I don't understand how this set of config files is processed;
there are quite a lot of files in etc/apt/apt.conf.d/. There's a man for
apt.conf, which doesn't exist and no man for apt.conf.d, which exists!



the command tool for finding relevant man pages on your system is apropos ...

$ apropos apt



apt (1)  - annotation processing tool
apt (8)  - Advanced Package Tool
apt-cache (8)- query the APT cache
apt-cdrom (8)- APT CD-ROM management utility
apt-config (8)   - APT Configuration Query program
apt-extracttemplates (1) - Utility to extract debconf config and tem...
apt-file (1) - APT package searching utility - command-line ...
apt-forktracer (8)   - a utility for managing package versions
apt-ftparchive (1)   - Utility to generate index files
apt-get (8)  - APT package handling utility - - command-line...
apt-key (8)  - APT key management utility
apt-listbugs (1) - Lists critical bugs before each apt upgrade/i...
apt-mark (8) - mark/unmark a package as being automatically-...
apt-move (8) - move cache of Debian packages into a mirror h...
apt-offline (8)  - Offline APT Package manager
apt-secure (8)   - Archive authentication support for APT
apt-show-versions (1p) - Lists available package versions with distr...
apt-sortpkgs (1) - Utility to sort package index files
apt-zip (8)  - Use apt with removable media
apt-zip-inst (8) - Use apt with removable media
apt-zip-list (8) - Use apt with removable media
apt.conf (5) - Configuration file for APT
apt_preferences (5)  - Preference control file for APT



so looking at apt.conf I see as the very first text 'DESCRIPTION'

/etc/apt/apt.conf is the main configuration file shared by all
   the tools in the APT suite of tools, though it is by no means
   the only place options can be set. The suite also shares a
   common command line parser to provide a uniform environment.

   When an APT tool starts up it will read the configuration
   files in the following order:

1. the file specified by the APT_CONFIG environment variable
   (if any)

2. all files in Dir::Etc::Parts in alphanumeric ascending
   order which have either no or "conf" as filename extension
   and which only contain alphanumeric, hyphen (-),
   underscore (_) and period (.) characters. Otherwise APT
   will print a notice that it has ignored a file, unless
   that file matches a pattern in the
   Dir::Ignore-Files-Silently configuration list - in which
   case it will be silently ignored.

3. the main configuration file specified by Dir::Etc::main

4. the command line options are applied to override the
   configuration directives or to load even more
   configuration files.


Dir::Etc::Parts is in fact apt.conf.d/

as seen by going to the FILES section at the end of the manpage, either with a 
search for Dir::Etc::Parts or because you know a FILES section usually exists:


FILES
   /etc/apt/apt.conf
   APT configuration file. Configuration Item:
   Dir::Etc::Main.

   /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/
   APT configuration file fragments. Configuration Item:
   Dir::Etc::Parts.



so certainly finding this out does require a little familiarity with the linux 
documentation system, but it is all there and in exactly the discoverable 
places. There is a lot of information available, tool tips or a few help 
paragraphs could not come close to providing it. That is why very simplified GUI 
configurations eliminating all the uncommon settings are so popular.


Simon

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-01 Thread Florian Zieboll 
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 13:13:43 +
Simon Hobson  wrote:

> Florian Zieboll  wrote:
> 
> > As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just
> > 
> >  $ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/ 
> > 
> > without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is
> > all about easier deployment (and automated removal) of
> > configurations - like hitting some button on a shady website to add
> > distribution independent repositories to the sources.list. 
> >
> > (...)
> 
> So overall I think this is "a good thing" - even though it does have
> one or two downsides.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't want to say that it's a "bad thing" - just
give an (perhaps somewhat polemic) example of its practical usage :)
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-02-01 Thread Didier Kryn 

Le 01/02/2016 14:13, Simon Hobson a écrit :

Florian Zieboll  wrote:


For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends
--no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends.
The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*):

  APT::Install-Recommends "0";
  APT::Install-Recommends "1";

This will install the recommends, the other way around it won't.
Apparently there's still some behavior left in modern Linux that is
coherent with an autistic mindset, hahaha.

Makes sense to me too - first entry sets/resets option, next entry resets/sets 
the same option - the last one taking effect.


As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just

  $ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/

without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is all
about easier deployment (and automated removal) of configurations - like
hitting some button on a shady website to add distribution independent
repositories to the sources.list.

More to the point, it means (in the general case) a number of packages can add/remove 
their own configs during package install/upgrade/removal just by adding/updating/removing 
"it's" config file from the conf.d directory. For another example, when 
installing Xen, it adds a file to Grub's conf.d to add the Xen boot options. Same with 
various web packages that put a file in /etc/apache2/conf.d.

IMO it's far better than trying to come up with some mechanism to *SAFELY* edit 
a shared config file.

It also means the user/admin can add their own config file, and if they name it 
to sort last then they can override any other default settings - but without 
impacting on the ability of a package to update it's own file. Once you get 
into editing the package supplied config file then upgrading gets a bit less 
automatic.

So overall I think this is "a good thing" - even though it does have one or two 
downsides.



I fully agree that "this is a good thing". There remains one question:

On my laptop the file 99synaptic contains only one line:
APT::Install-Recommends "false";

If all the files are read by all apt tools, then the setting meant 
for synaptic applies to all apt tools. If i'd purge synaptic, then the 
behaviour of apt-get might change. Does it make sense? It seems to me 
that this file should contain some indication tnat the setting applies 
only to synaptic.


Didier

Didier


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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread Go Linux 
On Sun, 1/31/16, Hendrik Boom <hend...@topoi.pooq.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 11:20 AM
 
>  Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
>  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>  Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 10:17 AM
> 
> Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit :
>
> >I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in 
> > libsystemd0.  I have no idea what.
>
>  I made some trials.
>
>  On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit
> and gvfs.
>
>  - gvfs is necessary if you want xfce4 to show an icon on the
> desktop when you plug in a removable media.
>
>  - policykit and policykit-gnome are necessary if you want to run
> synaptic from xfce4's menu.
>
>  Didier
>
> 
>
> The operative qualifier being 'at least'.  Just for giggles, I tried to 
> remove it and got this thrown at me:
>
> The following packages will be REMOVED:
>   acpi-fakekey avidemux avidemux-plugins ca-certificates-java default-jre
>   default-jre-headless dvdstyler ffmpeg gimp gnome-orca gvfs gvfs-backends
>   gvfs-daemons libasound2-plugins libavdevice56 libespeak1 libgegl-0.2-0
>   liblavplay-2.1-0 libmikmod3 libmjpegtools-dev libpulse-dev
>   libpulse-mainloop-glib0 libpulse0 libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-sound1.2
>   libsdl-sound1.2-dev libsdl1.2-dev libsdl1.2debian libsystemd0 libxine2-x
>   mjpegtools mplayer2 openjdk-7-jre openjdk-7-jre-headless packagekit
>   packagekit-tools sane-utils smplayer smplayer-l10n smplayer-themes
>   speech-dispatcher speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins vlc xine-ui
>
> What a mess!  Just how do you fix that!!  (Rhetorical question btw) 

With some significant risk, you could take out libsystemd0, let it do
its worst, and then try -- one at a time -- reinstalling the deleted
packages that you really need, one at a time.  it's just possible that
some of these packages have alternative dependencies and that they can
be made to work by installing different dependencies from wht you
originally hadx.

> -- hendriik



hendriik and Rainer,

I'm not going to be doing anything risky atm because I'm still trying to get 
the window themes finished for the beta.

I have very few of the packages installed that are listed in # apt-cache 
rdepends libsystemd0:

# apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0
libsystemd0
Reverse Depends:
  tor
  pulseaudio
  libpulse0
  mpd
  knot-libs
  knot
  apt-cacher-ng
  weston
  transmission-daemon
  tgt
  systemd-dbg
  systemd
  python3-systemd
  libsystemd-dev
  syslog-ng-core
  stunnel4
  spice-vdagent
  sane-utils
  remctl-server
  realmd
  php5-fpm
  packagekit
  onak
  nsca-ng-server
  network-manager
  libmutter0e
  monopd
  mate-session-manager
  mate-screensaver
  light-locker
  libvirt0
  libvirt-daemon-system
  libvirt-daemon
  libvirt-clients
  libguestfs0
  lbcd
  knot-libs
  knot
  iodine
  inn
  libghc-libsystemd-journal-dev
  gvfs-daemons
  gnome-system-monitor
  gnome-shell
  gnome-session-bin
  gnome-screensaver
  gnome-logs
  gnome-disk-utility
  libgdm1
  gdm3
  fcgiwrap
  erlang-base-hipe
  erlang-base
  clamav-daemon
  cinnamon-settings-daemon
  cinnamon-session
  cinnamon-screensaver
  beanstalkd
  apt-cacher-ng
  acpi-fakekey
  libaccountsservice0
  mpd

I was rather shocked (and annoyed) to see that pulseaudio was installed with 
the default alpha2 xfce desktop and I think that is a likely source of the 
problem.  I have been checking dependencies as I install packages and I didn't 
catch any so maybe it was something in the alpha itself that spawned those deps.

golinux
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread Didier Kryn 

Le 31/01/2016 23:59, Go Linux a écrit :

So how did packagekit get in there?

I'm afraid it was recommended by rox-filer.

Didier

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread Haines Brown 
I was asked why I do not run Devuan rather than Sid on the laptop. When
I installed Sid, Devuan was not even in Alpha. I am not anxious to
reinstall Sid, but but when Devuan beta comes out I'll install it.

Mitt Green pointed out that the /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd script
I've been using is incorrect. Perhaps this is why I acquired
systemd-udevd and sysdend-logind even without systemd.

I suspect I could remove the /lib/systemd/ directory entirely, and it
might block any systemd-udev from changing network interface name, and
systemd=logind from freezing user's frozen desktop.

So let me ask: if I delete the directory and its contents, will I still
have a functioning Sid system?

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread Rainer Weikusat 
Haines Brown  writes:
> I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for
> quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or
> safe-upgrade for the first time after several months since the Sid
> installation systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless interface
> from wlan0 to wlp3s0.

This comes from another attempt at using udev device renaming facilities
in order to work around udev device re-ordering with a couple of "be
nice to Dell" gimmicks thrown in (the guy who originally implemented
'encode bus layout in network device name' for Fedora had a @dell.com
e-mail address). Since that's a totally braindead idea only a hardware
clown could ever come up with[*], the best course of action would seem
to be to disable this. Reportedly, the boot parameter

net.ifnames=0

does that.

[*] The kernel is supposed to provide an abstract programming interface
for the available hardware such that it's easily possible to write
software which is at least portable to different computers running
the same OS. But unfortunately, the days of FORTRAN being considered
the abstract programming interface of IBM 704 mainframes and IBM 704
mainframes only haven't ended everywhere and the systemd guys aren't
the only people who are generally pissed of by every bit of
technical progress which happened since ca 1965[**].

[**] Weren't it for the current popularity of ARM, someone would likely
 have considered to implement the whole piece of Brobdingnagian
 precision mechanic in "hand-optimized x86 machine code" instead of
 C ...

[...]

> Then I found that while root can run starx with no problem, when user
> does it the desktop comes up frozen along with mouse and keyboard
> input.

Debian has chosen to disable setuid-execution of the X server to make
the system more secure against unwarranted intrusions of the person who
wrongly believes to own it. Reportedly, the xserver-org-legacy package
can be installed to fix this.
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread Florian Zieboll 
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:23:50 +0300
Mitt Green  wrote:

> Why not then pin libsystemd0 two times,
> both "old APT" and "new APT (>1.1)" ways?

The new syntax works fine on my Jessie systems, no need for double
entries.

> Avoiding libsystemd0 without angband.pl repos is
> not possible yet though.

Yes, it is. I was a bit surprised myself when I checked my Jessie
laptop again some days ago, but it is does definitely not run any
systemd components - with only the Devuan mirror and Debian security in
the sources.list and no "orphaned" packages from other repos installed:



root@nullmobil:~# lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID: Devuan
Description:Devuan GNU/Linux 1.0 (jessie)
Release:1.0
Codename:   jessie
root@nullmobil:~# 



root@nullmobil:~# cat /etc/apt/sources.list*
deb http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main non-free contrib
deb-src http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main non-free contrib

# jessie-updates
deb http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free 
deb-src 
http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free

# backports
#deb http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-backports main contrib non-free 
#deb-src http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-backports main contrib 
non-free

# debian security
deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free

# angband.pl
#deb http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd main
cat: /etc/apt/sources.list.d: Is a directory
root@nullmobil:~# 



root@nullmobil:~# aptitude -F %p search '~i' | xargs -l1 apt-cache policy | 
grep tp\:\/\/ | grep -ve de.mirror.devuan.org -e security.debian.org 
root@nullmobil:~#



root@nullmobil:~# aptitude search '~i' | grep systemd
root@nullmobil:~# 



Please tell me what I miss here... It is running sysv-init with XDM
and DWM / JWM and all the "major components" like dbus, udev and even
cups.

BTW, I just noticed that the "%O" switch for "aptitude -F" does not
work, neither on my Devuan systems nor on Debian Jessie. It would be
nice if someone would confirm this, before I file a bug report. 
While e.g.
  $ aptitude -F "%p%s" search '?installed'
works as expected,
  $ aptitude -F "%p%O" search '?installed'
doesn't even start to initialize and returns immediately, without output.

Ahoi,

Florian

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread Didier Kryn 

Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit :

   I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in libsystemd0.  
I have no idea what.

I made some trials.

On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit 
and gvfs.


- gvfs is necessary if you want xfce4 to show an icon on the 
desktop when you plug in a removable media.


- policykit and policykit-gnome are necessary if you want to run 
synaptic from xfce4's menu.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread fsmithred 
On 01/31/2016 05:57 AM, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:23:50 +0300
> Mitt Green  wrote:
>> Avoiding libsystemd0 without angband.pl repos is
>> not possible yet though.
> 
> Yes, it is. I was a bit surprised myself when I checked my Jessie
> laptop again some days ago, but it is does definitely not run any
> systemd components - with only the Devuan mirror and Debian security in
> the sources.list and no "orphaned" packages from other repos installed:
> 
> 

Same here. I have xfce and lightdm with no outside repos, no libsystemd0
and no package with systemd anywhere in the name. The only limitation I've
run across is that I can't install gvfs, so there's no pop-up icon on the
desktop when I plug in a usb stick. Life is good.

fsr

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread Mitt Green 
Flor‎ian Zieboll wrote:‎

>The new syntax works fine on my Jessie systems, no need for
>double e‎ntries.

Nice :)

>It is running sysv-init with XDM
>and DWM / JWM and all the "major components"
>like dbus, udev and even cups.

You may even want to remove dbus package, if there is no
dependency on it. dwm is, by the way, made by
suckless.org, those mates are known for their
minimalistic approach in writing code and their attitude to
systemd in particular, even having a section about it on
the site. They surely read this list :)

To be honest, I removed aptitude in the very early days
of my Debian experience and have never installed it again.
APT and dpkg do the job great for me, I very rarely open 
Synaptic. Deborphan is nice to manage retained
unnecessary packages and configurations.


My €0.02,
Mitt
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread Hendrik Boom 
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 05:14:00PM +0300, Mitt Green wrote:
> Flor‎ian Zieboll wrote:‎
> 
> >The new syntax works fine on my Jessie systems, no need for
> >double e‎ntries.
> 
> Nice :)
> 
> >It is running sysv-init with XDM
> >and DWM / JWM and all the "major components"
> >like dbus, udev and even cups.
> 
> You may even want to remove dbus package, if there is no
> dependency on it. dwm is, by the way, made by
> suckless.org, those mates are known for their
> minimalistic approach in writing code and their attitude to
> systemd in particular, even having a section about it on
> the site. They surely read this list :)
> 
> To be honest, I removed aptitude in the very early days
> of my Debian experience and have never installed it again.
> APT and dpkg do the job great for me, I very rarely open 
> Synaptic. Deborphan is nice to manage retained
> unnecessary packages and configurations.

aptide used to be unique because it maintained the distinction between 
packages you had requested and packages it had installed as 
dependencies.  I'm told that nowadays, apt maintains that information, 
too, so apttitude users don't have to worry about thheir dependency 
database being corrupted.  I don't know if apt does anything with it, 
though.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-31 Thread Didier Kryn 

Le 31/01/2016 15:32, Hendrik Boom a écrit :

aptide used to be unique because it maintained the distinction between
packages you had requested and packages it had installed as
dependencies.  I'm told that nowadays, apt maintains that information,
too, so apttitude users don't have to worry about thheir dependency
database being corrupted.  I don't know if apt does anything with it,
though.


I guess this distinction between manually-installed and 
automatically-installed is necessary for apt-get --auto-remove to work 
at all.


This information is available to Synaptic as well. I have been 
using synaptic alternatively with apt-get as from when it was available, 
because I was never able to make sense of aptitude.


Didier

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[DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-30 Thread Haines Brown 
I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for
quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or
safe-upgrade for the first time after several months since the Sid
installation systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless interface
from wlan0 to wlp3s0.

Changing the entry in /etc/network/interfaces fixed that problem. So now
I could do a wireless aptitude update and safe-upgrade.

Even though in /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd I have:

  Package: "systemd"
  Pin: origin ""
  Pin-Priority: -1

Systemd was re-installed. Why didn't this systemd file prevent it?

Then I found that while root can run starx with no problem, when user
does it the desktop comes up frozen along with mouse and keyboard
input. I found this:

  $ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep EE
(EE) systemd-logind: failed to gete session: The name \
  org.freedesktop.login1 was not provided by any .service  \
  files.

Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from? How
can I block it and recover a usable virtual desktop for user?

Haines Brown
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-30 Thread Go Linux 
On Sat, 1/30/16, Haines Brown <hai...@histomat.net> wrote:

 Subject: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Saturday, January 30, 2016, 6:26 PM
 
I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for
quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or
safe-upgrade for the first time after several months since the Sid
installation systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless interface
from wlan0 to wlp3s0.

Changing the entry in /etc/network/interfaces fixed that problem. So now
I could do a wireless aptitude update and safe-upgrade.

Even though in /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd I have:

  Package: "systemd"
  Pin: origin ""
  Pin-Priority: -1

Systemd was re-installed. Why didn't this systemd file prevent it?

Then I found that while root can run starx with no problem, when user
does it the desktop comes up frozen along with mouse and keyboard
input. I found this:

  $ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep EE
(EE) systemd-logind: failed to gete session: The name \
  org.freedesktop.login1 was not provided by any .service  \
  files.

Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from? How
can I block it and recover a usable virtual desktop for user?

Haines Brown




I'm suffering this curse also.  I am just now upgrading Jessie and something 
wants to pull in libsystemd0.  I have no idea what.  Needless to say, I am NOT 
going to install it. Unfortunately, Devuan's version of whack-a-mole is only 
going to accelerate.  We're going to be overrun if we don't get more hands on 
deck . . . 

golinux
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-30 Thread Mitt Green 
‎Haines Brown wrote:

>systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless interface
>f‎rom wlan0 to wlp3s0.

I highly recommend to use udev from Wheezy/Jessie on Unstable
and pin the package ("apt hold udev"). Vdev one day will be our
default device manager anyway.

The correct way to prevent a package from being installed in
Unstable/Ceres:

=
‎
Package: [package name] 
Pin: release a=* [or o=*]
Pin-Priority: -1 

=


>Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from?

systemd-logind is provided by systemd package.


Cheers,
Mitt
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-30 Thread Arnt Karlsen 
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:26:48 -0500, Haines wrote in message 
<20160131002648.gg8...@engels.historicalmaterialism.info>:

> I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for
> quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or
> safe-upgrade for the first time after several months since the Sid
> installation systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless
> interface from wlan0 to wlp3s0.
> 
> Changing the entry in /etc/network/interfaces fixed that problem. So
> now I could do a wireless aptitude update and safe-upgrade.
> 
> Even though in /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd I have:
> 
>   Package: "systemd"
>   Pin: origin ""
>   Pin-Priority: -1
> 
> Systemd was re-installed. Why didn't this systemd file prevent it?
> 
> Then I found that while root can run starx with no problem, when user
> does it the desktop comes up frozen along with mouse and keyboard
> input. I found this:
> 
>   $ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep EE
> (EE) systemd-logind: failed to gete session: The name \
>   org.freedesktop.login1 was not provided by any .service  \
>   files.
> 
> Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from?
> How can I block it and recover a usable virtual desktop for user?

..we used to have a "--what-provides" search flag somewhere,
man -k, man dpkg-query, man apt-file, man apt-cache etc did
not turn up anything ringing any bells for me, so I tried:
https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents=systemd-logind=filename=unstable=any
 ?

..I like this a lot better: http://wiki.grml.org/doku.php?id=debian

..can we trust these anymore?
https://packages.debian.org , http://packages.ubuntu.com/ and 
https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkg_basics.en.html

..other ideas: 
http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/198009/what-provides-etc-exports-and-how-do-i-find-that-out
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Debian+%22what-provides%22
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=linux+%22what-provides%22

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-30 Thread Mitt Green 
Go Linux wrote:>Needless to say, I am NOT going to install it.Why not then pin libsystemd0 two times,both "old APT" and "new APT (>1.1)" ways?As we have been discussing pinning for a while now,you probably have seen the "new way."Avoiding libsystemd0 without angband.pl repos isnot possible yet though.PS I didn't receive the message, I am replying to, again.I will probably use protonmail.ch again, when they willmove out of beta-stage on February 18. Right now accessingit costs a lot of pressure; you have to enter two passwordsevery time you close the tab with it. Needless to say, you can't use it in a client. Their mobile and desktop appsare in development though.Farewell,Mitt
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me

2016-01-30 Thread Steve Litt 
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:26:48 -0500
Haines Brown  wrote:

> I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for
> quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or
> safe-upgrade for the first time after

[snip]

> Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from?
> How can I block it and recover a usable virtual desktop for user?

I'm not a package manager whisperer so I can't answer your question.
But what would happen if you simply backed up the laptop's data and
installed a clean Devuan on it? I'd imagine Devuan would be much more
capable of remaining systemd-free than would any Debian, especially Sid.

If your reason for Sid is you need new apps, you might consider a
rolling release like Funtoo, Gentoo, Void, Spark (sans-systemd Arch),
Manjaro-OpenRC and the like. I'm running Void right now, and check out
my apps:

==
[slitt@mydesk ~]$ uname -a
Linux mydesk 4.3.3_2 #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Dec 23 07:55:09 UTC 2015 x86_64
GNU/Linux
[slitt@mydesk ~]$ firefox -v
Mozilla Firefox 43.0.4
[slitt@mydesk ~]$
==

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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