Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 15:30:13 +0800, Brad wrote in message 
<56ab1505.7080...@fnarfbargle.com>:

> I've snipped the remainder of your reply because personally I could
> not make head nor tail of what you were on about and it looked like a 
> steaming pile of misdirected political 

..yeah, quite like groklaw.net and devuan... ;oD

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Brad Campbell]

On 28/01/16 11:15, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:05:08 +0800, Brad wrote in message
<56a97754.7050...@fnarfbargle.com>:


I'm running an early 2015 Macbook Pro. I have OSX, Windows 7 & Linux
installed. I live in Linux, but on the rare occassions I need to boot
into OSX or Win 7 I simply s2disk. That way when I re-boot into linux
it just wakes up where it was rather than losing any context.

Aside from the non-functioning camera, the only other hardware issue
I routinely see is the USB SD reader mostly disappears off the bus
after a system sleep.


..doesn't your early 2015 Macbook have enough opmh to run all
these OS'es off e.g. https://www.qubes-os.org/  (aside from
their systemd issue)?


Yeah it does, but occasionally when doing things like firmware updates 
to peripherals it's just a shitload easier to run the native OS on the 
bare metal rather than fart around with USB re-direction and hardware 
passthrough. For those reasons, I keep a windows and OSX install on the 
bare metal.


Sure, I *can* do it in Linux via a VM, but I'm old enough now to not 
want to do time consuming shit like that just because I can. Time is 
money. Suspend linux, boot windows, update device, resume Linux.. job done.


I've snipped the remainder of your reply because personally I could not 
make head nor tail of what you were on about and it looked like a 
steaming pile of misdirected political 

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 21:14:42 +0200, Lars wrote in message 
<56a91722.2020...@gmail.com>:

> On 01/27/2016 08:53 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> [snip]
> > True story, I had a bad battery such that the instant I pulled
> > out the power supply, the computer turned off. They wouldn't send
> > me a new battery until I did a series of Windows tests.
> 
> Which vendor?  It would be good to know so as to steer clear of them.

..also, does the warranty policies allow you to pull out the 
Wintendo drive so you can fit a known good drive with a known 
good os?  (I bought my last brand new computer in 1997. ;o) )

..that way you can simply buy new gear with the cheapest 
possible disk and pour your money on good cpu, ram etc.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:05:08 +0800, Brad wrote in message 
<56a97754.7050...@fnarfbargle.com>:

> I'm running an early 2015 Macbook Pro. I have OSX, Windows 7 & Linux 
> installed. I live in Linux, but on the rare occassions I need to boot 
> into OSX or Win 7 I simply s2disk. That way when I re-boot into linux
> it just wakes up where it was rather than losing any context.
> 
> Aside from the non-functioning camera, the only other hardware issue
> I routinely see is the USB SD reader mostly disappears off the bus
> after a system sleep.

..doesn't your early 2015 Macbook have enough opmh to run all 
these OS'es off e.g. https://www.qubes-os.org/  (aside from 
their systemd issue)?


..coming from SuSE-5.2 in 1998, I can live with .rpms, but the 
systemd issue really boils down to either "they are wrong and 
made a death trap for people like me and Edward Snowdon", or, 
"we are wrong and should get ready to apologise."


..as a quiet ;o) pacifist in the early 1980ies serving in the 
RNoAF and our Navy, I had _NO_ idea Boris Yeltsin would climb 
on top of a Soviet tank in 1991 to cancel WWIII. :o)

..I didn't want any wannabe nazi genocider idiots wasting precious 
ammo trying to kill Russian etc democrats on my behalf, wounding 
them is 5 times more effective in war according to the US Army 
and keeps them alive, tying up personell in hospitals etc. 

..on trying to build a language translator in 1994 out of the texts 
of the 130 language pairs in the 4 Geneva Conventions, I learned a 
new lesson on my own damned naîvity, I had indeed been trained as 
a genocider, I heard of the 4 Geneva Conventions exactly 3 times 
between 1981 and 1984, "common sense" in boot school, the last time, 
I overheard an AA commander mention "Geneva" explaining the ban on 
below-40mm grenades on personell to his gun crew as I passed by to 
pick up an AA target "drone" I had just landed.


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/01/2016 23:47, Didier Kryn a écrit :


I've seen that few years ago on some machines I bought for my job. 
I bet it was Dell Poweredge servers. Dell likes to have its own OS 
installed for maintenance purpose. If you don't care the maintenance, 
you can overwrite it, but why not dual boot? Maybe they offer that on 
laptops. Actually, if you buy a Dell computer "without OS", it 
certainly means "with FreeDOS".


I was wrong: the machine which has dual boot with FreeDos is my HP 
laptop, the one on which I write this mail. It's an EliteBook core i7 
bought 2 years ago. And this was the laptop I ordered "without OS".


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Brad Campbell]

On 27/01/16 23:57, Simon Hobson wrote:

Wim  wrote:


I still have my previous model, I suppose I ought to try a native install on it 
- and perhaps see if I can get OS X running as a VM.

I would prefer dual booting personally, since running OSX in a VM isn't always 
perfect. Fi, access to external hardware over USB, like audio interfaces, 
doesn't work properly. Harddisks and the usual stuff like HID devices just 
works.


I don't like dual boot. It's OK for something where all OSs are only used 
intermittently so it's no problem to shut down and boot into something else. 
It's a real PITA when the main OS is used all day long, and you've a gazilion 
web pages open, and need access to your mail while booted in the other OS, and 
...
Obviously that's a matter of personal preference.


I'm running an early 2015 Macbook Pro. I have OSX, Windows 7 & Linux 
installed. I live in Linux, but on the rare occassions I need to boot 
into OSX or Win 7 I simply s2disk. That way when I re-boot into linux it 
just wakes up where it was rather than losing any context.


Aside from the non-functioning camera, the only other hardware issue I 
routinely see is the USB SD reader mostly disappears off the bus after a 
system sleep.



--
Dolphins are so intelligent that within a few weeks they can
train Americans to stand at the edge of the pool and throw them
fish.
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Simon Hobson]

Wim  wrote:

> I still have my previous model, I suppose I ought to try a native install on 
> it - and perhaps see if I can get OS X running as a VM.
> 
> I would prefer dual booting personally, since running OSX in a VM isn't 
> always perfect. Fi, access to external hardware over USB, like audio 
> interfaces, doesn't work properly. Harddisks and the usual stuff like HID 
> devices just works.

I don't like dual boot. It's OK for something where all OSs are only used 
intermittently so it's no problem to shut down and boot into something else. 
It's a real PITA when the main OS is used all day long, and you've a gazilion 
web pages open, and need access to your mail while booted in the other OS, and 
...
Obviously that's a matter of personal preference.

> * Yes, the one with the faulty SATA that doesn't like 3gbps drives - you try 
> finding a drive these days that has a jumper for 1.5gbps operation :-(
> 
> You don't need to jumper drives. I've never encountered any drive that 
> doesn't work with these machines.

You have been lucky then. I've tried several, and every drive I tried did not 
work (I think I must have tried about 3, different makes - including buying 
another new 750G that didn't work) - it would appear to connect etc, but once 
"in use" would cause constant errors. I did try the local genius bar, and they 
were more helpful than I expected (2nd hand machine, out of warranty). First 
off he was able to see from the service history that it had already had a 
ribbon cable replacement which I gather was the usual suspect. And he did run 
some tests - but as it wasn't an Apple drive he couldn't do much more.

In the end, I looked at the drive model, looked up the specs, and saw that 
there was a 500G version - this machine had 250 in it originally. So I kept an 
eye on eBay until an Apple branded one came up and got that - and added a 
second one in the optical drive bay.

Incidentally it was only one or two models that had this problem - I think mine 
was the first. Earlier models only supported 1.5G SATA, later models fixed the 
issue. These had a 3G SATA interface which was "flaky" if urn at 3G, but the 
drives Apple used were only 1.5G. It was only when people upgraded with "other" 
drives that the problem showed up.
There's was fair bit of noise in the forums about it for a while.

> OSX even sends UNSAVED documents to the cloud, according to some.

If you let it ;-)
But yes, it defaults to pressuring you to linking up with your Apple account so 
it can automatically sync stuff. Most of the builtin applications now autosave 
as they go along - so it's not surprising that the autosave versions get synced.
Safari also defaults to sending every URL you edit to Google (via Apple ?) - 
not just what you type, but the entire URL. It's also irritatingly stupid in 
that it will sometimes decide that your url doesn't look like a url and do a 
search or it will decide that your search term looks like a url and fail to 
load it. I'm of the school where if I type into a search box I expect it to 
search, and if I type in a url box I expect it to be treated as a url - and the 
two boxes are different things and should be separate.


> I don't think legislation to keep hardware "open" will work. Legislators tend 
> not to understand the matter and hardware manufacturers are way too clever 
> bypassing laws.

I agree. Something is only likely to happen "after the fact" if enough people 
complain. I suspect that the same law that got the guy (in the link I posted 
earlier) a refund and his legal costs paid might go somewhere. If the hardware 
won't run an "unapproved" OS, then it might be possible to argue that it's a 
form of tying - ie you can't use X unless you buy Y - which I wasn't actually 
aware was specifically illegal over here.

Now, if people go into ${shop} and buy a PC, and specifically mention that 
you'll be needing to run other OSs on it, then it doesn't matter if the sales 
guy knows what EFI is or whether secure boot can be turned off or not - if it 
can't boot your OS then it's not fit for the purpose you stated when you bought 
it and you are entitled to a refund.
Getting a full refund is really expensive for the retailer - they get a product 
back that they can't sell as new (and if it's mail.online they legally have to 
pay carriage both ways), so they will make a loss even if they eventually sell 
it as "grade B". So there is an opportunity to hit the retailers of such crap 
with costs and influence what they stock. We have no clout with manufacturers, 
but if (big) retailers decide not to stock things that cost them money then 
that will get noticed.
I wouldn't want to do this to "the little guys", but IMO the big chains are 
fair game - and if they have a statistically significant quantity of returns 
then they are likely to be asking questions of the manufacturer.

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Wim]

2016-01-27 16:57 GMT+01:00 Simon Hobson :

> Wim  wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > * Yes, the one with the faulty SATA that doesn't like 3gbps drives - you
> try finding a drive these days that has a jumper for 1.5gbps operation :-(
> >
> > You don't need to jumper drives. I've never encountered any drive that
> doesn't work with these machines.
>
> You have been lucky then. I've tried several, and every drive I tried did
> not work (I think I must have tried about 3, different makes - including
> buying another new 750G that didn't work) - it would appear to connect etc,
> but once "in use" would cause constant errors. I did try the local genius
> bar, and they were more helpful than I expected (2nd hand machine, out of
> warranty). First off he was able to see from the service history that it
> had already had a ribbon cable replacement which I gather was the usual
> suspect. And he did run some tests - but as it wasn't an Apple drive he
> couldn't do much more.
>
>
I would take a look at that SATA cable AGAIN. These break far too often.
And when they break, they often don't break completely. Symptoms vary from
weird boot problems, to the OS going corrupt, to a general slow drive.

If by 750G, you mean the Seagate hybrid 750 GB drive, I have several users
with a 2008 Macbook Pro using these. I installed them and they all worked
on first try. Could be worse with "revision A" Macbooks. We don't get those
here in Europe. That's a US privilege. I only see them from people who
bought their machine while in the USA. And I can't recollect if I ever saw
an early 2008 rev. A MB Pro.



> In the end, I looked at the drive model, looked up the specs, and saw that
> there was a 500G version - this machine had 250 in it originally. So I kept
> an eye on eBay until an Apple branded one came up and got that - and added
> a second one in the optical drive bay.
>

There used to be a difference between Apple labeled harddisks and
"ordinary" HD's. It mattered when doing AV stuff on G4 or older. I can't
say there's any difference nowadays. Except for label and price :D


> Incidentally it was only one or two models that had this problem - I think
> mine was the first. Earlier models only supported 1.5G SATA, later models
> fixed the issue. These had a 3G SATA interface which was "flaky" if urn at
> 3G, but the drives Apple used were only 1.5G. It was only when people
> upgraded with "other" drives that the problem showed up.
> There's was fair bit of noise in the forums about it for a while.
>

I know. I do support for a living, with an estimated 70% of users on OSX.
Most of these users are AV professionals, so they can't use Linux. A few of
the web devs I support have a Debian Wheezy VM or partition. It's stil a
bit better to be able to test stuff on the real thing, as OSX has some
differences.


>
> > OSX even sends UNSAVED documents to the cloud, according to some.
>
> If you let it ;-)
> But yes, it defaults to pressuring you to linking up with your Apple
> account so it can automatically sync stuff. Most of the builtin
> applications now autosave as they go along - so it's not surprising that
> the autosave versions get synced.
>

It is amazingly hard to stop OSX from sending metadata. I don't have an
icloud account, but had to rip out several background services to get
Mavericks stable when doing audio recordings.


> Safari also defaults to sen

ding every URL you edit to Google (via Apple ?)


Not via Apple. That's the one thing I"m fairly sure about. Apple is
collecting data, but they will never share it with anyone else.

I've been using DuckDuckGo for a long while. It's good. I also use Ghostery
to block tracking. Amazingly good, if you take into account that it's made
by an advertising company.

- not just what you type, but the entire URL. It's also irritatingly stupid
> in that it will sometimes decide that your url doesn't look like a url and
> do a search or it will decide that your search term looks like a url and
> fail to load it. I'm of the school where if I type into a search box I
> expect it to search, and if I type in a url box I expect it to be treated
> as a url - and the two boxes are different things and should be separate.
>
>
> > I don't think legislation to keep hardware "open" will work. Legislators
> tend not to understand the matter and hardware manufacturers are way too
> clever bypassing laws.
>
> I agree. Something is only likely to happen "after the fact" if enough
> people complain. I suspect that the same law that got the guy (in the link
> I posted earlier) a refund and his legal costs paid might go somewhere. If
> the hardware won't run an "unapproved" OS, then it might be possible to
> argue that it's a form of tying - ie you can't use X unless you buy Y -
> which I wasn't actually aware was specifically illegal over here.
>
> Now, if people go into ${shop} and buy a PC, and specifically mention that
> you'll be needing to run other OSs on it, 

Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Lars Noodén]

On 01/27/2016 08:53 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
[snip]
> True story, I had a bad battery such that the instant I pulled
> out the power supply, the computer turned off. They wouldn't send me a
> new battery until I did a series of Windows tests.

Which vendor?  It would be good to know so as to steer clear of them.

Regards,
Lars
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:46:40 +0100
Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
> it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
> installed.
> 
> Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
> need to buy a new machine?
> 
> Edward

Here's how *I* handle it...

For desktops, I just buy the mobo, CPU and RAM from one vendor, to
avoid finger pointing. In these days of Windows 10, by hook or by
crook, I need to make sure the mobo bios (or whatever it's called these
days) allows me to turn off secure boot, otherwise I can only use
Ubuntu, Redhat, Debian, and all the other distros I would never use.

For laptops, of course, I *could* buy from system76 or
penguin-computing and the like, thereby guaranteeing Linux
compatibility. But I don't want to pay Apple prices for PC hardware.

So what I do instead, and I've done this about eight times, is go to
Costco, with their 90 day, no questions asked guarantee (please ask at
the counter to determine your exact store's exact policy). Using
techniques garnered from the people at the ##windows IRC channel, I
shrink the Windows partition, make a new partition out of the free
space, and slam Linux on it. DO NOT DELETE ANY OF THE EXISTING
PARTITIONS 

It's absolutely for sure that both wifi and UEFI boot
will be a challenge: It will take awhile. But so far I've been able to
do it every time except one (and that one was meant to be my child's
Windows machine anyway).

If you absolutely can't make the machine run Linux, use the restore
partition to put the machine back the way you got it, return it to the
store for your money back, and when they ask, tell them you can't use
it because it can't run Linux.

You notice I leave the machine as a dual-boot, which is much harder
than wiping and (if the mobo allows) doing a simple MBR style Linux
install. Keeping Windows is a necessity during the warranty period,
because when you go to RMA the laptop, custy service will walk you
through a series of Windows-only tests to determine the hardware
problem. True story, I had a bad battery such that the instant I pulled
out the power supply, the computer turned off. They wouldn't send me a
new battery until I did a series of Windows tests.

Personally, once my manufacturers warranty expires, I wipe out Windows
and go 100% Linux. But that's a couple years after I buy the box.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 04:49:59 -0500
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 05:57:45PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > 
> > I heard that M$ is forcing the laptop makers to enable TPM, and
> > prevent it from being disabled, else they aren't allowed to install
> > windows. Having a choice of OS to install is great, but doesn't TPM
> > mean that GNU/Linux can't be installed because TPM won't recognize
> > its signature, if it is signed in the first place? So, getting a
> > machine without windows on it is all well and good, but what about
> > the issue of disabling TPM, or is that not an issue?  
> 
> Last I heard was that Microsoft, after requiring it to be possible to 
> disable secure boot to get Windows certifiication, has dropped that 
> requirement.  I haven't heard that they now require it to stay on.

This is exactly what I heard. Windows 8 compatibility required there be
Secure Boot, and it be disableable. Windows 10 compatibility dropped
the requirement that it be disableable.

> 
> But there have been machines sold where you cannot turn it off and 
> can only install a Linux distros that Microsoft has signed, which I 
> believe are Redhat and Ubuntu -- for me a reason to avoid those  
> distros.

This is the precise problem. If I were happy with Ubuntu, Redhat and
Debian, this would be a non-problem. But as we've all seen in the past
18 months, big distros can go very, very wrong, and in the absence of
small distros, this can create a world of hurt for people who want to
rule their machines rather than the other way around. Mandatory Secure
Boot pretty much forces you into Windows or a big Linux. This is why,
before purchasing a machine, the #1 most vital question is: Can I turn
off secure boot? If no, the machine's useless.

I may start buying used machines to avoid all this stuff.

> 
> The fact that no one that sells computers in retail stores seems to 
> even understand the question about TPM worried me.  

Why should they? They're Windows-Weenies. It's not a problem for them.
It's just the tiniest bolt in a huge machine.

> THe mere
> existence of these recalcitrant machines provides an overwhelming
> anount ot FUD into computer purchases.  Even having Ubuntu
> preinstalled doesn't mitigate it.

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Simon Hobson]

Wim  wrote:

> I would take a look at that SATA cable AGAIN. These break far too often. And 
> when they break, they often don't break completely. Symptoms vary from weird 
> boot problems, to the OS going corrupt, to a general slow drive.

No, definitely a "hard" fault. While trying to deal with it I swapped drives 
several times - with the non-Apple drives it was consistently bad, with the 
Apple drives it was consistently error free.

> If by 750G, you mean the Seagate hybrid 750 GB drive

No, both plain HDs - one Seagate, one WD. I probably tried with any random 
drives we had lying around at work.

But as you say, getting somewhat OT now.

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[al3xu5 / dotcommon]

This is my first email here, so... 
Hi all! And thanks Devuan.
(And sorry for my bad English.)


> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:46:40 +0100
> From: Edward Bartolo 
> To: dng 
> Subject: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
>
> [...]
> Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
> it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
> installed.
> 
> Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
> need to buy a new machine?

My personal experience follow:

(1) Computer (desktop/workstation) 
I assemble my computers by myself. 
First I prepare a sort of project, listing all the components I need to buy. 
I select *ALL* the single hardware components checking to have 100% Linux
compatibility (have to run in a 100% free software system, with neither kernel
binary blobs nor binary firmware modules). More, the motherboard should support
BIOS (or UEFI) replacement (coreboot or libreboot). 
Some useful resources are:
https://www.h-node.org/
http://www.coreboot.org/Supported_Motherboards
https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware
http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/index.html
http://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/selibre/linux-libre/index.en.html
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/desktop-computers-gnu-linux
and others...
Also I check compatibility between components (product specifications, forums,
friends/contacts etc.).
Then I bought the hardware I need components (new components or, much better,
refurbished or reused components if I could find them), assemble my computer
by myself and, finally, install a *100%-libre-GNU/Linux-system*!
Yes. Not simple as to buy a pre-build computer coming from a big company... 
The cost is usually the same (and often is less), but consider the unpayable
fun of the hardware+software hacking experience!

(2) Laptop
Assembling laptops starting from hardware components (where to found them?) is
too hard... So my options are:
(a) buy a new or (better) refurbished 100% libre/free (in the sense I have
written above) laptop... some resources are:
https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200
http://minifree.org/product-category/laptops/
http://minifree.org/product/libreboot-t400/
http://minifree.org/product/libreboot-x200/
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/notebook-computers-gnu-linux-2
(b) buy a new or (better) refurbished or used laptop which could be upgraded to
became 100% free i.e. some good ThinkPad models would be 100% libre/free except
for the wifi card (requiring a binary firmware)... so it is just to be
replaced...
some replacement here:
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/wireless-networking-gnulinux
Once I have the free hardware, again I install on my laptop a
*100%-libre-GNU/Linux-system*!


Regards
-- 
al3xu5 / dotcommon
Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial design restrictions.
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Simon Hobson]

Robert Storey  wrote:

> So maybe I should ask: Have you tried installing Linux on your MacBook? If 
> so, how was the experience? Any advice about that? Any nonsense to deal with 
> similar to Microsoft's "secure boot"? (if you answered those questions 
> already in another post, I"m sorry, I missed it).
> 
> Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the future, 
> especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux.
I last tried native Linux back in the G4 MacBook days - I can't say I've tried 
it lately. For Linux and Windows, I either remotely access a server, or I run a 
VM (I use parallels, other virt options available). Biggest problem I have is 
that my current machine (Mid 2008*) is maxed out at 8G RAM and that just isn't 
enough - I can get to 4 or 5G swap space used 8-O I really need a newer one but 
usual problem - no money !

I still have my previous model, I suppose I ought to try a native install on it 
- and perhaps see if I can get OS X running as a VM.

* Yes, the one with the faulty SATA that doesn't like 3gbps drives - you try 
finding a drive these days that has a jumper for 1.5gbps operation :-(


TBH, I'm one of a growing band who's used Apple stuff for  decades 
(before Mac), but getting increasingly "irritated" by their move to ever more 
closed systems - not to mention their tendency to drop stuff with little 
fanfare if they think it's of benefit to them. E.g., in 10.9 they dropped Sync 
Services in favour of "you *WILL* sync your i[Phone|Pod|Pad] via our cloud" 
(rather than just plugging in a USB cable). That backfired, and enough iThing 
users kicked up enough fuss that they actually backtracked and re-instated the 
service. Unfortunately, they only re-instated what they needed for the iThings, 
not the whole service so 3rd party software that relies on it (like the Missing 
Sync I use for my Android phone) is broken after 10.8.

So I have been seriously considering whether "some other make" of hardware, 
running Linux native, and OS X in a VM might be better. But comparing real 
specs, the hardware isn't that much cheaper - and I don't have the cash nor the 
time to do it. In reality, comparing actual specs, I don't think their hardware 
is all that pricey - it's more that they don't do "cheap, low spec" machines 
which is what many people compare with.
AFAIK they don't provide Linux drivers (but I suspect they don't need to), but 
for those wanting to run Windows, there's a utility to generate a Windows 
driver disk for the machine. So they aren't really that closed in terms of what 
they'll let you run.

My biggest beef is their "closed maintenance" attitude. They only sell spares 
to authorised service centres, and they impose a "no resale" condition to stop 
those service centres selling on new parts - that wasn't too bad back in the 
days when I part owned a dealership and our margins off list price was 32% :-), 
sucks now I'm an end user :-(. Not too bad if you have an older model - then 
there's usually supplies of cannibalised spares available.



Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> The purpose of this mail thread is to stimulate discussion about the
> subject, as it is becoming increasingly harder to purchase Linux
> friendly hardware. I don't know whether the following is paranoia or
> fact, but I get an uncomfortable itch when I enter a shop boasting of
> having a Microsoft deal or anything similar.
> 
> I think, the time has come for Linux users to unite, so that as a
> group, they would seek some form of aggreement with hardware
> manufactures, so that their OS, would not be erased from existence by
> virtue of having no one producing Linux friendly hardware.

"no one" is a bit wide of the mark. One thing I have noticed lately is that 
there is far wider availability of cross-platform drivers for stuff. While once 
over you'd find that the vast majority of hardware would have "support for all 
OSs" which actually means all versions of Windows from 95 to whatever is 
current for the day, I've noticed over the last few years that more and more 
manufacturers have Mac (OS X) and/or Linux support.

IMO the only way to ensure continued support for non-Windows OSs is to support 
those who provide it, and query those who don't. As long as there is a market, 
then manufacturers will support it - as long as they know it's there. So 
perhaps if people actually sent feedback to manufacturers along the lines of 
"thank you for supporting Linux, I bought your ${product} because of this" or 
"I was considering ${product} but as you don't support Linux I bought something 
else" it might influence their priorities.

Going up against MS is a non-starter. If it's a choice between selling (being 
generous) another 1% though Linux support, or losing some more significant 
amount of "marketing support" by not toeing the line with MS - that's a no 
brainer for any business.

As to getting all Linux users to unite, ha, fat chance ! We 

Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Wim]

Just to clear up a few things:

- The TPM chip on some Mac has never been used. It's my guess that
marketing decided against it, purely for imago problems. There were a lot
of reactions from ordinary users in the style of "I don't want anything on
my Mac that might check if I'm running pirated software".

The plan was to sign all software, something they have implemented without
hardware now.

2016-01-27 12:16 GMT+01:00 Simon Hobson :

> Robert Storey  wrote:
>
> > So maybe I should ask: Have you tried installing Linux on your MacBook?
> If so, how was the experience? Any advice about that? Any nonsense to deal
> with similar to Microsoft's "secure boot"? (if you answered those questions
> already in another post, I"m sorry, I missed it).
> >
>

I have installed Debian, up to Wheezy on some Macs. In general, it's not a
problem. Everything works, except the camera. There is NO driver for it
that I'm aware of. EFI isn't a problem, even if there are no docs. Several
utilities exist (DarwinDumper, fi) to read an modify it. When it comes to
dual or even triple booting, RefIt works perfectly.



> > Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the
> future, especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux.
> I last tried native Linux back in the G4 MacBook days - I can't say I've
> tried it lately. For Linux and Windows, I either remotely access a server,
> or I run a VM (I use parallels, other virt options available). Biggest
> problem I have is that my current machine (Mid 2008*) is maxed out at 8G
> RAM and that just isn't enough - I can get to 4 or 5G swap space used 8-O I
> really need a newer one but usual problem - no money !
>
> I still have my previous model, I suppose I ought to try a native install
> on it - and perhaps see if I can get OS X running as a VM.
>

I would prefer dual booting personally, since running OSX in a VM isn't
always perfect. Fi, access to external hardware over USB, like audio
interfaces, doesn't work properly. Harddisks and the usual stuff like HID
devices just works.


>
> * Yes, the one with the faulty SATA that doesn't like 3gbps drives - you
> try finding a drive these days that has a jumper for 1.5gbps operation :-(
>
>
You don't need to jumper drives. I've never encountered any drive that
doesn't work with these machines.



>
> TBH, I'm one of a growing band who's used Apple stuff for  decades
> (before Mac), but getting increasingly "irritated" by their move to ever
> more closed systems - not to mention their tendency to drop stuff with
> little fanfare if they think it's of benefit to them. E.g., in 10.9 they
> dropped Sync Services in favour of "you *WILL* sync your i[Phone|Pod|Pad]
> via our cloud" (rather than just plugging in a USB cable). That backfired,
> and enough iThing users kicked up enough fuss that they actually
> backtracked and re-instated the service. Unfortunately, they only
> re-instated what they needed for the iThings, not the whole service so 3rd
> party software that relies on it (like the Missing Sync I use for my
> Android phone) is broken after 10.8.
>


Yep. The golden cage is slowly losing it's shine, but not it's lock.

OSX even sends UNSAVED documents to the cloud, according to some.



>
> So I have been seriously considering whether "some other make" of
> hardware, running Linux native, and OS X in a VM might be better. But
> comparing real specs, the hardware isn't that much cheaper - and I don't
> have the cash nor the time to do it. In reality, comparing actual specs, I
> don't think their hardware is all that pricey - it's more that they don't
> do "cheap, low spec" machines which is what many people compare with.
> AFAIK they don't provide Linux drivers (but I suspect they don't need to),
> but for those wanting to run Windows, there's a utility to generate a
> Windows driver disk for the machine. So they aren't really that closed in
> terms of what they'll let you run.
>
>
My latest experiment was with an older Toshiba laptop, a Pentium M 1.5 GHz
with only 512 MB ram and no HD. The Toshiba harddisk adapter is missing, as
the previous owner pulled the harddisks. This isn't a problem, you can find
those for a couple of € on ebay, I just haven't ordered them yet. As I have
a pile of those machines, it seemed interesting to do something with them.

There wasn't one Linux distro that installed from CD to a USB or FW
attached disk on this machine. I've tried a dozen or so, starting with
Debian Wheezy. The only thing that worked with the standard installer and
supported all hardware out of the box, except wireless, was FreeBSD.

Unfortunately, the white sticker with the precise model is blank on all of
them and Toshiba has a habit of making lots of similar models.



> My biggest beef is their "closed maintenance" attitude. They only sell
> spares to authorised service centres, and they impose a "no resale"
> condition to stop those service centres selling on new parts - 

Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Lars Noodén]

On 01/27/2016 04:07 AM, Robert Storey wrote:

> Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the future,
> especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux.

The ones from a few years ago do ok.  I don't know about the newer ones,
but I'd assume they'd still run ok.  However, I and others I know have
had problems a few years ago with the hardware failing, specifically the
graphics.  That on top of two bad keyboards has caused me to be looking
elsewhere.

I know someone that special ordered a Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed.
I'm not sure if that is still possible, it was a few months ago, and
historically that kind of thing comes and goes.

Regards,
Lars
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 05:57:45PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> I heard that M$ is forcing the laptop makers to enable TPM, and
> prevent it from being disabled, else they aren't allowed to install
> windows. Having a choice of OS to install is great, but doesn't TPM
> mean that GNU/Linux can't be installed because TPM won't recognize its
> signature, if it is signed in the first place? So, getting a machine
> without windows on it is all well and good, but what about the issue
> of disabling TPM, or is that not an issue?

Last I heard was that Microsoft, after requiring it to be possible to 
disable secure boot to get Windows certifiication, has dropped that 
requirement.  I haven't heard that they now require it to stay on.

But there have been machines sold where you cannot turn it off and 
can only install a Linux distros that Microsoft has signed, which I 
believe are Redhat and Ubuntu -- for me a reason to avoid those  
distros.

The fact that no one that sells computers in retail stores seems to 
even understand the question about TPM worried me.  THe mere existence 
of these recalcitrant machines provides an overwhelming anount ot FUD 
into computer purchases.  Even having Ubuntu preinstalled doesn't 
mitigate it.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:48:50 +, Simon wrote in message 
<42725396-018e-4453-9f90-31c2877c1...@thehobsons.co.uk>:

> Mitt Green  wrote:
> 
> > They can request a refund before activating the
> > license, but will actually receive a smaller amount of
> > money than they spent, if some at all at all.
> 
> I recall reading how one person, after a fight to get anything, got
> much more ! This isn't the case I was thinking of, but came up while
> searching :
> http://www.techworld.com.au/article/414500/lenovo_ordered_pay_1920_making_french_laptop_buyer_pay_windows_too/
> 
> In the case I was thinking of, the guy got back the cost of a retail
> copy of Windows from the same shop - on the basis that they didn't
> have any lower priced option, and refused to reveal/provide any
> evidence of what the actual cost of the OEM version was. IIRC it was
> something like $195 or $295 !
> 
> So play your cards right, and be prepared to fight your corner rather
> than accept what the shop tells you, and you could get more back than
> you expected.

..sweet. ;o)

..the one problem with Stéphane's approach, is you risk creating 
case law in Microsoft et al's favor by running out of money for
appeals, litigation against these bad boy billionaires is very
expensive because they will appeal anything they don't like 
"just because" they can, and if you do not appeal a bad judgment 
in time, it will be left standing and form part of case law. 

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi Everyone,

The purpose of this mail thread is to stimulate discussion about the
subject, as it is becoming increasingly harder to purchase Linux
friendly hardware. I don't know whether the following is paranoia or
fact, but I get an uncomfortable itch when I enter a shop boasting of
having a Microsoft deal or anything similar.

I think, the time has come for Linux users to unite, so that as a
group, they would seek some form of aggreement with hardware
manufactures, so that their OS, would not be erased from existence by
virtue of having no one producing Linux friendly hardware.

Edward

On 27/01/2016, Robert Storey <robert.sto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Simon Hobson <li...@thehobsons.co.uk>
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
> Message-ID: <319f6090-0a9b-47d4-84b3-1d1a8b297...@thehobsons.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Robert Storey <robert.sto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Since the Mac doesn't have a ctrl key, the following was a particularly
> relevant post:
>
>> Really ?
>> Mine does, there between the fn and alt keys - standard UK keyboard on a
> MacBook
>> Pro. I think it will be model/keyboard specific. You can always plug in a
> different
>> keyboard.
>
> Hi Simon. You're right, at least newer Macs have a ctrl key. Older ones
> didn't, but it's been many years since I had one. I guess now the cmd key
> is equivalent to the unused "Windows" key I see staring me in the face
> right now.
>
> So maybe I should ask: Have you tried installing Linux on your MacBook? If
> so, how was the experience? Any advice about that? Any nonsense to deal
> with similar to Microsoft's "secure boot"? (if you answered those questions
> already in another post, I"m sorry, I missed it).
>
> Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the future,
> especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux.
>
> cheers,
> Robert
>
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[dev1fanboy]

I mostly build my own computers, as far as my laptop goes I went for good specs 
and yes that meant I had to sacrifice and get it preinstalled with windows.

This might be on me, I did notice freedos installations available on slightly 
lower spec laptops. It's one of those cost of freedom issues.

Thinkpads can still be found on ebay if you just need a reasonable work 
computer (they look very solid), and a second user install doesn't really put 
money in microshafts pocket. 

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 6:46 PM, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
> it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
> installed.
> 
> Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
> need to buy a new machine?
> 
> Edward
> ___
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Mitt Green]

We actually have a lot of shops, mostly small, that do their business
in Internet, they offer cheap low-end laptops (well, having 4GB of RAM
is low-end these days).

Dell has own line with Ubuntu pre-installed.

There is also an option to buy one of those Pis, especially Pi Zero,
which is €4/£4/$5.

And, of course, as long as they don't bundle Windows right into the
SSD/HDD (or do they?), assembling own machine is
the best way to get it working.


My £0.02,
Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Go Linux]

On Tue, 1/26/16, Edward Bartolo  wrote:

 Subject: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
 To: "dng" 
 Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2016, 12:46 PM
 
Hi All,

Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
installed.

Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
need to buy a new machine?

Edward



Both my current boxes are custom builds.  I don't do hardware.  So I research 
what's available, buy it and have the local computer shop put it together at a 
cost of @$20.  Both boxes have gigabyte boards and they have served me well.  
I've never had a lappy so don't know anything about that.
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Mitt Green]

‎I wrote:
>they offer cheap low-end laptops (well, having 4GB of RAM
is low-end these days).

They have Linux pre-installed, forgot to mention.

I've seen maybe a couple only high-end laptops with
Linux, and they are made by Dell.

So, looking through the market, chances are, you'll
see galore, but mostly cheap and too slow to run Windows.‎
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Teodoro Santoni]

2016-01-26 19:46 GMT+01:00, Edward Bartolo :
> Hi All,
>
> Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
> it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
> installed.
>
> Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
> need to buy a new machine?

I see corporate pressure mostly on big retail deals,
e.g. the pc you buy at the supermarket. A pc which
is probably going to break in hilarious and mysterious ways in a year.
The big players in selling pcs for the workplace don't care really that
much into coercing you to install Win, as long as you install an equally
spyware-compatible OS like Ubuntu or Fedora.
Some open source education and a lot of smugglers, cheaters and good people
like that in the management group make it easy
for little retailers in Italy to thrive and sell good pcs without any
OS preinstalled.
For personal use I hadn't bought a pc in 8 years IIRC, but a week ago
I had to for work purposes.
For laptops there is some choice even at an affordable price on the net,
without any OS. Check Amazon. If I were you I won't trust so much
known sellers for foss laptops like System76 or Librem, just because
they sell overpriced HW :)
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Dave Turner]

You buy the laptop with Windows 10 installed, make sure everything works 
then install the distro of your choice.

No dual-booting.
VeryPC in the UK make small eco-friendly desktops that they are happy to 
sell without an OS.

I might get one when the iMac finally breaks.

You could always have a nice hefty server in the loft and go thin-client...

DaveT

On 26/01/16 18:46, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi All,

Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
installed.

Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
need to buy a new machine?

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Mitt Green]

‎Dave Turner wrote:
 

>You buy the laptop with Windows 10 installed

When buying a machine with Windows
pre-installed, a customer pays for Windows as well.
They can request a refund before activating the
license, but will actually receive a smaller amount of
money than they spent, if some at all at all.


Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Scott Reynolds]

Hi.

[My first post to this list]
I recently bought a used Dell laptop that had Windows 7 pre-installed 
and just completely formatted the hard drive and installed Debian 7 on 
it (Before I became aware of this list).  It, Debian 7, recognized all 
of the hardware without any problems.


I haven't tried it with Windows 10.

Scott R.

On 1/26/16 11:46 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi All,

Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
installed.

Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
need to buy a new machine?

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Joel Roth]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 07:46:40PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
> it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
> installed.
> 
> Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
> need to buy a new machine?

I generally go through a laborious, and somewhat painful
process to install my own choice of OS.


-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 07:46:40PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
> it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
> installed.
> 
> Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
> need to buy a new machine?

The thing to watch out for is whether there are free drivers for *all* 
of the hardware.  I have an old ASUS EEEPC that I use for a laptop.  
Even though all the early EEEPC's came with Linux installed, it tool at 
least a year before they released one that did not require proprietary 
drivers.  And some irony, it came with Windows XP preinstalled.
I just installed Debian and stopped worrying about the Windows, which I 
used once a year or so to buy copy-pretected ebooks (which I promptly 
decrypted so I could still read them into the far future (yes, this 
was legal  in Canada)).

Lat year I doubled its RAM and replaced its approx 160G hard drive with 
a 1T drive with an SSD cache.  It is suddenly much faster as long as I 
don't run Chrome.

I'd be happy doubling the size of the screen, except that it I did that 
it wouldn't fit in my backpack any more, and that's *important*.

I got my hardware and installation info from the Linuxlaptop site.  Is 
that still in operation? 

If I were buying a laprop now, I'd have to do research into what's 
available, check out the availablility of free drivers, make sure I 
can use it without secure boot, try to find out if I can make it work 
with a free BIOS, and so forth.  I probably would consider one of the 
Linux computer vendors, possibly ThinnkPenguin (one I haven't seen 
mentioned here yet).

There was a discussion on soylent news a month or two back about 
getting a free laptop.n There were a lot of alternatives mentioned to 
the obsolete laptops approved by the FSF and to the Librem.

In particular, there were serous questions whether it was possible to 
get a secure computer running free software if you were to use INtel of 
AMD CPUs.

There seem to be viable ARM processors, and I've even heard mention of 
an ARM laptop; I've had no luck tracking it down.  Does anyone else 
know of a source?

Some Chromebooks apparently can be made to install Linux instead 
(though their boot process leaves something to be desired).  But the 
ones with ARM processors all seem to lack adequate size hard drives.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/01/2016 19:18, Hendrik Boom a écrit :

There seem to be viable ARM processors, and I've even heard mention of
an ARM laptop;


I've got a Pi-Top, a laptop built around a Raspberry Pi. It's the 
first model, crowd-funded. I wouldn't recommend it. I had very little 
time to devote to it but noticed the keyboard and the touchpad are of 
poor quality. Another aspect is that it is more a test bench than a true 
laptop. The USB sockets are on the raspberry Pi and not easily 
accessible from outside; you must open a sliding door between the 
keyboard and the lid to reach the Raspberry Pi, a door meant for 
hardware hacking in some sense.


OTOH, it is supposed to have an autonomy of 10h on battery...

Didier

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Hendrik Boom  writes:

[...]

> There seem to be viable ARM processors, and I've even heard mention of 
> an ARM laptop; I've had no luck tracking it down.  Does anyone else 
> know of a source?

Not really a laptop but something I was seriously tempted to buy a
couple of times although I'm decidedly not a gadget-minded person (I
must be the only living being on this planet who has two iPhones I
exclusively use for VPN testing & other work stuff):

http://www.compulab.co.il/utilite-computer/web/home
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Robert Storey]

With desktop computers, it's not too hard to find one with FreeDos
installed by default, or no OS. Linux usually works fine on these machines.

A few years ago I bought a Toshiba Satellite laptop with FreeDos installed
by default, and it was cheap. No money to Microsoft, and Linux worked like
a charm. But I don't know if Toshiba still sells these Windows-free models
now.

With Microsoft screwing things up with SecureBoot, I've wondered if a Mac
might be less risky. I found a good thread about this on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2sm5yk/more_and_more_people_at_my_uni_are_running_linux/

Since the Mac doesn't have a ctrl key, the following was a particularly
relevant post:

> I've mapped the left Cmd key on my MacBook Pro to Ctrl like so:
> xmodmap -e "remove mod4 = Super_L" xmodmap -e "add control = Super_L"
> Put that in the startup script for your X session, and you should be fine!

This little article also seems very relevant to this topic:

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/choose-best-laptop-linuxubuntu/

cheers,
Robert
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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/01/2016 23:40, Robert Storey a écrit :
With desktop computers, it's not too hard to find one with FreeDos 
installed by default, or no OS. Linux usually works fine on these 
machines.


I've seen that few years ago on some machines I bought for my job. 
I bet it was Dell Poweredge servers. Dell likes to have its own OS 
installed for maintenance purpose. If you don't care the maintenance, 
you can overwrite it, but why not dual boot? Maybe they offer that on 
laptops. Actually, if you buy a Dell computer "without OS", it certainly 
means "with FreeDOS".


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Simon Hobson]

Mitt Green  wrote:

> They can request a refund before activating the
> license, but will actually receive a smaller amount of
> money than they spent, if some at all at all.

I recall reading how one person, after a fight to get anything, got much more !
This isn't the case I was thinking of, but came up while searching :
http://www.techworld.com.au/article/414500/lenovo_ordered_pay_1920_making_french_laptop_buyer_pay_windows_too/

In the case I was thinking of, the guy got back the cost of a retail copy of 
Windows from the same shop - on the basis that they didn't have any lower 
priced option, and refused to reveal/provide any evidence of what the actual 
cost of the OEM version was. IIRC it was something like $195 or $295 !

So play your cards right, and be prepared to fight your corner rather than 
accept what the shop tells you, and you could get more back than you expected.

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Simon Hobson]

Robert Storey  wrote:

> Since the Mac doesn't have a ctrl key, the following was a particularly 
> relevant post:

Really ?
Mine does, there between the fn and alt keys - standard UK keyboard on a 
MacBook Pro. I think it will be model/keyboard specific. You can always plug in 
a different keyboard.

Didier Kryn  wrote:

> Dell likes to have its own OS installed for maintenance purpose.

Thats' something to be aware of - a lot of vendors will simply refuse to 
provide any support (and even warranty) unless you can run Windows and/or their 
diagnostics.

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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.

[Gregory Nowak]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 10:43:40AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 07:46:40PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making
> > it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows
> > installed.
> > 
> > Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you
> > need to buy a new machine?
> 
> I generally go through a laborious, and somewhat painful
> process to install my own choice of OS.

I heard that M$ is forcing the laptop makers to enable TPM, and
prevent it from being disabled, else they aren't allowed to install
windows. Having a choice of OS to install is great, but doesn't TPM
mean that GNU/Linux can't be installed because TPM won't recognize its
signature, if it is signed in the first place? So, getting a machine
without windows on it is all well and good, but what about the issue
of disabling TPM, or is that not an issue?

Greg


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Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop

[Robert Storey]

Simon Hobson <li...@thehobsons.co.uk>
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Message-ID: <319f6090-0a9b-47d4-84b3-1d1a8b297...@thehobsons.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Robert Storey <robert.sto...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Since the Mac doesn't have a ctrl key, the following was a particularly
relevant post:

> Really ?
> Mine does, there between the fn and alt keys - standard UK keyboard on a
MacBook
> Pro. I think it will be model/keyboard specific. You can always plug in a
different
> keyboard.

Hi Simon. You're right, at least newer Macs have a ctrl key. Older ones
didn't, but it's been many years since I had one. I guess now the cmd key
is equivalent to the unused "Windows" key I see staring me in the face
right now.

So maybe I should ask: Have you tried installing Linux on your MacBook? If
so, how was the experience? Any advice about that? Any nonsense to deal
with similar to Microsoft's "secure boot"? (if you answered those questions
already in another post, I"m sorry, I missed it).

Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the future,
especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux.

cheers,
Robert
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