Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 13:04:04 +0100
Florian Zieboll  wrote:

> (I hope no one expected this thread to go back on the spool;)

Oh, and I hope that you, Alessandro, don't feel addressed personally.
If so: be assured of my deepest regret^^

Florian


pgp0R9igWr4xj.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 00:40:47 +0100
Alessandro Selli  wrote:

>   The ignorant peasant regularly claims the words of the savant to be
> "obscure geekery".


There's this cartoon (1), where an economic analyst stands in the
grainfield and tells the farmer to concentrate more on harvesting, as
sowing doesn't return any profit...

What an unfathomable shame that we let these poor guys, with their
amphetamine-blinkers and pharmaceutically armored egos, create some
kind of "monopoly of interpretation" and subsequently are well on our
way to fulfill the famous "wisdom" (which I tend to call a "curse") of
the Cree (2).

(I hope no one expected this thread to go back on the spool;)

Libre Grüße,

Florian



(1) https://s18.postimg.org/aj9g8ztdl/new_economy.jpg

(2) "Only when the last tree has been cut down, the last river poisoned
 and the last fish caught, will we realize that we can't eat money."


pgpkzgfwZH_dJ.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

>   The ignorant peasant regularly claims the words of the savant to be
> "obscure geekery".

That's me, ignorant peasant and dumb ox.  You may have heard the saying:
You can always tell a Scandinavian, but you can't tell him much.

Anyway, I _did_ enjoy the learned and eye-poppingly intricate recounting
of all the manifold, wondrous ways PS and PDF are not fully
feature-identical, even if that was gloriously irrelevant to the
concerns of the antecedent thread.  (This is the Internet:  Drift
happens.)

>   It's actually focused on your claim that:
> 
>   "You can convert a .ps file to .pdf one and back, and not lose any
>   substantive content in either direction.  The primary physical
>   difference is that the PDF version will be stored compressed, while
>   the PS version will not."

Yes, and I'm aware of the awesome display of edge-case theatre that
followed.

Now, I'd appreciate being able to chuckle and say thank you.  Is that
all right with you?

> ...factually wrong.

...to edge-case obsessives.  Welcome to the chorus.  Now, I hope you
have other concerns with anyone but me, as I am now bored and want my
time back.


>   Define "furious"

No.  Sod off, please.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Alessandro Selli]

On 16/03/2018 at 00:14, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Nelson H. F. Beebe (be...@math.utah.edu):
> 
>> I must rebut those statements.
> 
> Edge-case obsess, much?  ;->
> I'm delighted to have inspired you have disgorged this huge display of
> obscure geekery,

  The ignorant peasant regularly claims the words of the savant to be
"obscure geekery".

> albeit it was gloriously irrelevant to the antecedent 
> basic discussion of printers.

  It's actually focused on your claim that:

"You can convert a .ps file to .pdf one and back, and not lose any
substantive content in either direction.  The primary physical
difference is that the PDF version will be stored compressed, while
the PS version will not."

>> In summary, yes, the transformations PDF-to-PostScript and
>> PostScript-to-PDF are possible, but while the end results may be
>> similar, they are by no means identical.
>
> So, I voiced something pretty much true in most ways that matter, but

...factually wrong.

> you wanted to furiously

  Define "furious", as it seems you just mean "that contradicts what I say".

> argue at great length anyway, because edge-case
> obsessiveness is a thing.

  "Edge cases"?  "Obsessiveness"?  You really have a problem accepting you
said something wrong and being corrected with purely technical reasoning.

> I guess I must be on the Internet.

  The Flying Circus of those who are always right, facts notwithstanding!

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Menelaos Maglis]

> By the way, when will anyone point out that  printer-driver-hpcups
> might be enough for printing to non-ps HP printers and it doesn't need
> d-bus?

Being the original poster, I can confirm that CUPS+printer-driver-hpcups 
worked for the printer in hand via JetDirect, without d-bus. I was tempted
but did not have time to test the LPRng solution.
It is a cheap (€50) HP printer/scanner accessible via usb and wifi. 
Nevertheless, it provides a web management interface, network 
scanning through that, Bonjour, cloud printing, IPP and JetDirect network 
protocols...

Thank you, that was the kind of answer I was looking for originally.
In the meantime, I got a lot more :-)
Technical solutions, insights on printing technology, politics, computing 
history, but most valuable to me a sense of the Devuan community.

I thoroughly enjoyed it!
Thank you all so much.

Menelaos

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi Didier,

Didier Kryn writes:

> Le 16/03/2018 à 09:19, Olaf Meeuwissen a écrit:
>>> This is getting off the topic in the subject line, [...]
>> Indeed;-)
>>
>>> In PostScript, I don't readily find any built-in operators that could
>>> give a result that differs on every run, so you probably have to
>>> inject suitable arguments for srand from outside sources. PostScript
>>> can read data from files, so you could have a large file of seeds, and
>>> read a new seed for each simulation.
>> If it can read data from files, have it read from /dev/urandom!  After
>> all, in Unix everything's a file:-)
>
>   Not sure I understand everything here: PS is meant to be processed
> by the cpu of the printer. Not sure it is running any *nix OS. Don't
> even know how it can read a file.

My bad!  If the PS is processed on the printer then all bets are off.
If it is processed on host to convert it to something a non-PS printer
groks, it ought to work (modulo being able to read partial files).  But
then again, you were all talking about PS printers, IIRC.

Sorry,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

Joel Roth writes:

> Cups was sponsored by Apple, [...]

Correction, Apple bought CUPS in February 2007 after they adopted it for
inclusion in MacOS X in March 2002[1].

 [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS#History

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 16/03/2018 à 09:19, Olaf Meeuwissen a écrit :

This is getting off the topic in the subject line, [...]

Indeed;-)


In PostScript, I don't readily find any built-in operators that could
give a result that differs on every run, so you probably have to
inject suitable arguments for srand from outside sources. PostScript
can read data from files, so you could have a large file of seeds, and
read a new seed for each simulation.

If it can read data from files, have it read from /dev/urandom!  After
all, in Unix everything's a file:-)


    Not sure I understand everything here: PS is meant to be processed 
by the cpu of the printer. Not sure it is running any *nix OS. Don't 
even know how it can read a file.


        Didier


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[karl]

Nelson H. F. Bee:
...
> For more on PostScript and PDF, see the extensive bibliography at
> 
>   http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/postscri.bib

Thank you for all the references.

> As an example of differences between the two markup languages, look at
> the book in entry Casselman:2005:MIM, which shows how to program
...

In this entry the ftp link is dead. The book homepage is at
http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/graphics/manual/

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
Aspö Data
Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Nelson H. F. Beebe]

KatolaZ writes on Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:19:42 +:

>> my biggest frustration was not being able of finding a way to
>> implement a 2D random walk in postscript that would show a different
>> trajectory every time you open it :D (the only problem there is the
>> seed).

This is getting off the topic in the subject line, but here are some
possibly helpful comments.

The PostScript virtual machine does a good job of isolating the
program (and programmers) from the underlying hardware, so this
does not appear to be an easy task.

This is a general problem with random number generation: some
applications need random, but reproducible, sequences (e.g.,
debugging, repeatable science, ), while others would like to have
a random sequence that is different on every run (simulations,
selections, ...).

Most generators offer the possibility of setting the state,
which might be as simple as a single integer: different
states produce different sequences:

GS>1 srand 5 { rand } repeat pstack clear
1144108930
984943658
1622650073
282475249
16807

[same output, no matter how many times you run it]

GS>2 srand 5 { rand } repeat pstack clear
140734213
1969887316
1097816499
564950498
33614

[different output, because of differing starting seed]


GS>33614 srand 5 { rand } repeat pstack clear
940422544
140734213
1969887316
1097816499
564950498

[demonstrating that the output of rand is just the next value
starting from the current seed]

In normal programming languages, you may be able to generate a
likely-unique seed by combining (typically with an XOR bit operation,
which produces 0's and 1's with equal probability) data such as the
output of a high-resolution timer, process ID, user/group ID, 

On many Unix-family operating systems, you can also get (almost truly)
random bytes by reading /dev/urandom or /dev/random.  However, be
careful, because the latter is often implemented to block until
sufficient randomness is available in the kernel entropy pool, and
that could even take hours or days on a quiescent system.  Thus,
/dev/urandom is safest, if you have it, and quite satisfactory for
getting different seeds for each simulation run.

In PostScript, I don't readily find any built-in operators that could
give a result that differs on every run, so you probably have to
inject suitable arguments for srand from outside sources. PostScript
can read data from files, so you could have a large file of seeds, and
read a new seed for each simulation.

---
- Nelson H. F. BeebeTel: +1 801 581 5254  -
- University of UtahFAX: +1 801 581 4148  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCBInternet e-mail: be...@math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233   be...@acm.org  be...@computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USAURL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
---
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 04:59:49PM -0600, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> >> ...
> >> 'Successor' is not quite the right description, IMO.  The key point is
> >> that PDF (which, to be sure, was developed later) is bidirectionally
> >> equivalent and semantically identical to PostScript.  You can convert a
> >> .ps file to .pdf one and back, and not lose any substantive content in
> >> either direction.  The primary physical difference is that the PDF
> >> version will be stored compressed, while the PS version will not.
> >> ...
> 

[cut]

> 
> In summary, yes, the transformations PDF-to-PostScript and
> PostScript-to-PDF are possible, but while the end results may be
> similar, they are by no means identical.
> 
> For more on PostScript and PDF, see the extensive bibliography at
> 
>   http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/postscri.bib
> 
> [change .bib to .html for a similar Web view, but with live
> hyperlinks].
> 

Great piece on PS and PDF Nelson, indeed. I have loved ps for years,
but my biggest frustration was not being able of finding a way to
implement a 2D random walk in postscript that would show a different
trajectory every time you open it :D (the only problem there is the
seed). You can hack around with a sed script, but that spoils 99% of
the fun...

Maybe you have a pointer for that?

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Nelson H. F. Beebe (be...@math.utah.edu):

> I must rebut those statements.

Edge-case obsess, much?  ;->

I'm delighted to have inspired you have disgorged this huge display of
obscure geekery, albeit it was gloriously irrelevant to the antecedent 
basic discussion of printers.

> In summary, yes, the transformations PDF-to-PostScript and
> PostScript-to-PDF are possible, but while the end results may be
> similar, they are by no means identical.

So, I voiced something pretty much true in most ways that matter, but
you wanted to furiously argue at great length anyway, because edge-case
obsessiveness is a thing.

I guess I must be on the Internet.

But, to be nicer, thank you.  Seriously.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Nelson H. F. Beebe]

Rick Moen  writes on Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:19:50 -0700:

>> ...
>> 'Successor' is not quite the right description, IMO.  The key point is
>> that PDF (which, to be sure, was developed later) is bidirectionally
>> equivalent and semantically identical to PostScript.  You can convert a
>> .ps file to .pdf one and back, and not lose any substantive content in
>> either direction.  The primary physical difference is that the PDF
>> version will be stored compressed, while the PS version will not.
>> ...

I must rebut those statements.

While PDF and PostScript certainly can share much of the parser
implementation, and do, in both Adobe printer software, and in Artifex
Ghostscript, there are important differences.  Here are some (but by
no means all) of them:

* PDF supports several compression options that PostScript does not.

* Both PostScript and PDF have support for compressed (and binary)
  input, in practice, most PostScript files produced by software have
  been plain text files, while PDF files are usually a mixture of text
  and binary data.

* PDF supports several image bitmap formats that are unknown to
  PostScript.

* PDF supports image transparency, whereas PostScript uses an opaque
  printing model.

* PDF requires its resources (notably, fonts) to be defined in
  preamble or postamble area, whereas PostScript allows font character
  definitions to be trickled in as needed (that was a necessity with
  the small memories of early PostScript printers).

* PDF supports extended character sets (notably, Unicode), whereas
  PostScript was based on 8-bit extended ASCII.

* PDF handles more, and more advanced, font formats than the Type 1,
  2, and 3 fonts that PostScript recognized.

* PDF has provisions for external document links (Web URLs) and video.
  PostScript does not.

* PostScript is an extensible programming language, with loops,
  user-defined procedures, user-controllable dictionaries, and so on,
  while PDF has none of those.

* PostScript has curve representations that preserve smoothness at all
  resolutions, whereas conversion to PDF requires curves to be reduced
  to consecutive straight line segments; those segments are small
  enough that in normal document viewing, there is little or no visual
  difference between PostScript and PDF versions of the same document.
  However, under magnification, jaggies appear in the PDF image that
  could/would be invisible in the PostScript image.

A key motivation for Adobe's introduction of PDF was fast, and
parallel rendering for printing, and for Web viewing.  PDF has been a
key technology in making many large-city newspapers effectively
national newspapers, printed at many locations in a country at the
same time, thanks to fast network document transfer.  Previously,
important newspapers would be printed in one, or a few, locations,
then shipped by road and/or rail to distant locations, sometimes with
delays of a few days (such as was the case for the New York Times
coming by truck to my western US state).

With PostScript, user-written procedures can require arbitrary
execution time, and because font character definitions may be defined
as needed, a PostScript document must be processed in page order for
it to be rendered, even if some of those pages are never displayed on
the screen or a printer.  By contrast, once the PDF file resource
sections have been processed, PDF file pages are completely
independent, and can be rendered in any desired order, and
sequentially, or in parallel.  There are no loops possible, so page
rendering has essentially bounded time. Already in the 1990s, one
large vendor had a PDF printer capable of nearly 500 pages/minute
output, using 20+ processors for parallel page rendering.

PDF file `Web optimization' primarily means moving font (and other)
resources to the start of the file, whereas for document production
purposes, it may have been more convenient to put them at the end of
the file.  That way, once all of the resources have been received, a
PDF viewer (e.g., in a Web browser) can start showing page images,
even though remaining document pages may have yet to arrive over
the network.

Also, PDF files contain a page-location table resource that allows
access to arbitrary pages in constant time; as noted earlier, to show
page N of a PostScript file, you must first process all N-1 earlier
pages.

In summary, yes, the transformations PDF-to-PostScript and
PostScript-to-PDF are possible, but while the end results may be
similar, they are by no means identical.

For more on PostScript and PDF, see the extensive bibliography at

http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/postscri.bib

[change .bib to .html for a similar Web view, but with live
hyperlinks].

As an example of differences between the two markup languages, look at
the book in entry Casselman:2005:MIM, which shows how to program
figures in PostScript that are impossible to describe in PDF without
reduction to tiny graphical 

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:15:08PM +0100, k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> Hendrik:
> ...
> > I dumped Cups, am using lprng.  Works fine, except that some
> > programs don't know how to use lprng.  With libreoffice, I find
> > I have to print to a file, and then lpr that file.   It won't
> > go to the printer directly
> > 
> > Of course then I have the abilty to get libreoffice to generate 
> > postscript instead of pdf.  Postsript is much smaller.
> 
> Can't you make a named pipe and let the other end connect to lpr ?
> http://www.tldp.org/LDP/lpg/node15.html
> 
> Then "saving" to that file sends the content to lpr.
> 
> It sounds like a nice hack to be added to the lpd deamon suite.
> 

I remember I used something like that as well. Now I can't tell
whether I found that in the HOWTO (remember, once upon time we learned
stuff from HOWTOs... :D) or if it was a script I had found somewhere
else...

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[karl]

Hendrik:
...
> I dumped Cups, am using lprng.  Works fine, except that some
> programs don't know how to use lprng.  With libreoffice, I find
> I have to print to a file, and then lpr that file.   It won't
> go to the printer directly
> 
> Of course then I have the abilty to get libreoffice to generate 
> postscript instead of pdf.  Postsript is much smaller.

Can't you make a named pipe and let the other end connect to lpr ?
http://www.tldp.org/LDP/lpg/node15.html

Then "saving" to that file sends the content to lpr.

It sounds like a nice hack to be added to the lpd deamon suite.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
Aspö Data
Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 06:04:48PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 01:31:27PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > 
> > > Also, I *thought* all modern printers could understand and render PDF.
> > > Was I wrong about that?
> > 
> > Yes, you were.  PDF actually _is_ PostScript, just slightly transformed
> > and compressed for storage.
> 
> Yet when I produce a pdf file and a postscript file, the pdf is usually 
> much bigger.  There must be something going on that's not just compression.
> 
> -- hendrik
> 

TBH, it's normally the opposite (i.e., ps is much larger than it's pdf
counterpart), but the pdf converter of libreoffice has traditionally
been a bit quirky, so I wouldn't be surprised at all. You might
probably want to try pdf2ps and then ps2pdf on those large ones?

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 01:31:27PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> > Also, I *thought* all modern printers could understand and render PDF.
> > Was I wrong about that?
> 
> Yes, you were.  PDF actually _is_ PostScript, just slightly transformed
> and compressed for storage.

Yet when I produce a pdf file and a postscript file, the pdf is usually 
much bigger.  There must be something going on that's not just compression.

-- hendrik

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:01:43AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:
> 
> If you don't like what they did, the code is available to
> you to alter to your liking, or just try lprng.

I dumped Cups, am using lprng.  Works fine, except that some
programs don't know how to use lprng.  With libreoffice, I find
I have to print to a file, and then lpr that file.   It won't
go to the printer directly

Of course then I have the abilty to get libreoffice to generate 
postscript instead of pdf.  Postsript is much smaller.

-- hendrik
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Joel Roth]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:29:08AM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> Am 14. März 2018 08:45:00 MEZ schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen 
> :
> > 
> > "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.
> 
> 
> Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your 
> document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to the printer. Many 
> printers (like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of correctly resolved 
> bitmaps.

I beg to differ. There is a lot of complexity to manage.
Which paper tray are you printing to, orientation,
adminstering the print queue.  Writing portable code
supporting thousands of printers including protocols and
error recovery is not a simple task.

That's one of the reasons you don't see new competitors
appearing in this problem space. 

However, to answer about D-Bus free printing.  There are
still the historic tools around. lprng, possibly configured
with magicfilter to handle the various input fileformats. 

Cups was sponsored by Apple, and has been popular
for to its admin interface (via web browser on linux)
and its comprehensive support of printers. 

Certainly cups uses D-Bus to do all its desktop
notifications, and it makes sense that cups supports
these notifications.

If you don't like what they did, the code is available to
you to alter to your liking, or just try lprng.

cheers

 
> libre Grüße,
> 
> Florian
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
-- 
Joel Roth
  

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[golinux]

Let's stir the pot a bit . . .

All of my printers have been HP.  Ignorance is bliss . . .

First one was a hand-me-down with a serial connection.  Other 2 have 
been printer/scanners under $75. All three worked pretty much ootb but 
yes, I'm infected with dbus.


I don't print often so the biggest challenge is to keep ink flowing in 
those stupid cartridges.


At this point, I don't know that I will buy another printer but then it 
is convenient when you need one and have it a stretch away.  Scanner 
does come in handy . . .


Bottom line . . . I have more important things to obsess over than dbus.

golinux

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

[PS support]

> You might pay $1000 instead of $400, or $2000 instead of $1000.

One, ISTR you exaggerate.

Two, most of the reasons why PS-supporting printers are slightly (not
greatly) more expensive than non-PS-capable printers reflect being aimed
above the rock-bottom of the market and comprised of good components
with reasonable capabilities (including wired networking) rather than
getting by with terrible parts, no wired networking, and the cheapest
possible choices of everything that will barely suffice to permit a
printer to work at all.

One hardware consequence of PS that is _directly_ related is printer RAM
and CPU.  If the printer must image each page from a PostScript-wrapped
bitstream, then it cannot limp by with 128kB of printer RAM but must
have around 4MB, and it cannot have a CPU not quite good enough to drive
a digital watch.  So, parts selection cannot be scrapings from bottom of
the hardware barrel such as is the case with the cheapest possible
(awful) non-PS printers.

But, anyway, if PS cost an extra $600 on a laser printer I expected to
use in production for the next ten years, me, I'd still pay that.

> Also, I *thought* all modern printers could understand and render PDF.
> Was I wrong about that?

Yes, you were.  PDF actually _is_ PostScript, just slightly transformed
and compressed for storage.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Florian Zieboll (f.zieb...@web.de):

> I have a vague recollection, that there are printers and imagesetters,
> that are able to render PDF directly (never was involved in such a
> workflow myself) - but this is probably only true for equipment which
> does PostScript, of which PDF is a direct successor.

'Successor' is not quite the right description, IMO.  The key point is
that PDF (which, to be sure, was developed later) is bidirectionally
equivalent and semantically identical to PostScript.  You can convert a
.ps file to .pdf one and back, and not lose any substantive content in
either direction.  The primary physical difference is that the PDF
version will be stored compressed, while the PS version will not.

There is also a really important _legal_ difference.  Adobe was quite
aggressive in attempting to monetise PostScript for a long time, based
on the firm's legal control via patent holdings.  This is one reason why
the groundbreaking Apple LaserWriter printers suffered a apricing
premium, as did NeXT, Inc's lovely proprietary BSD variant NeXTStep,
because instead of X11, it used a graphical subsystem constructed using 
Display PostScript.  Both products were more expensive than they would
have been without PostScript because patent royalties were owed to Adobe
Systems for each unit sold.

Predictably, Adobe's patent-based monopoly eroded as others invented
alternatives, e.g., although Adobe's PostScript typefaces were the best
in the world (in which category I include leading PS typefaces from
other major foundries), increasingly the alternative TrueType technology
(whose modern descendant is OpenType) choices were good enough and then
competitive, along with some other advantages such as better-integrated
on-screen rendering and lower RAM overhead.  Adobe perceived that it had
priced itself too high, and risked PS becoming 'really good, but too
expensive hence irrelevant' like Apple's Firewire.  Wishing to not miss
the boat on a promising new subniche, print-like document formats, 
it made the _PDF_ variant of PS usable free of patent royalties in
perpetuity, so as to increase the format's attractiveness for adopters.

An ironic consequence of that market decision:  When the now-late Steve
Jobs returned to Apple, Inc. and arranged for his firm NeXT, Inc. to be
'acquired' by Apple (in form, albeit the substance was that NeXT, Inc. 
upper managers became Apple's new upper management, so one can say it
was really more like NeXT acquiring Apple), the chief product problem to
be solved was crafting a successor to legacy MacOS 9.x, which lacked
both memory protection and a real multitasking model and basically
needed to be junked and replaced.  Jobs had been 'hired' (permitted to
spearhaed a NeXT takeover of Apple) partly because NeXT still owned the
rights to NeXTStep, which with a figurative paint-job and mild dusting
was re-christened 'Macintosh OS X' (the 'X' not being pronounced 'ecks', 
but rather 'ten').

The crowning irony?  Apple[/NeXT] solved its Adobe royalties headache
through a small tweak:  The NeXTStep Display PostScript graphics system
was slightly updated (and dubbed 'Quartz' as a codename) to use Display
PDF, which is pretty nearly exactly the same thing, instead of Display
PostScript.  There are to my knowledge no technical advantages, but they
did this so that they would no longer (figuratively) need to cut a
royalty cheque to Adobe for each and every copy.

Without taking the time to investigate, my guesstimate is that Adobe's
patents on PostScript (v.1 and possibly also v.2) have now expired and
are no longer a burden.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:57:13 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:08:14 +0100
> Florian Zieboll  wrote:
> 
> > Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when
> > it supports a PostScript version >1?  
> 
> You might pay $1000 instead of $400, or $2000 instead of $1000.

I think that you don't pay this extra for PostScript itself, but mostly
for a higher quality (weight...) product, which then fortunately
includes support for a "reasonable" (debuggable, lol) file format.

> Also, I *thought* all modern printers could understand and render PDF.
> Was I wrong about that?

I have a vague recollection, that there are printers and imagesetters,
that are able to render PDF directly (never was involved in such a
workflow myself) - but this is probably only true for equipment which
does PostScript, of which PDF is a direct successor.

libre Grüße,

Florian


pgp82t_gtmfa0.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:08:14 +0100
Florian Zieboll  wrote:

> Am 15. März 2018 08:25:33 MEZ schrieb Dave Turner
> :
> 
> > which network printers should we buy?  
> 
> Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when
> it supports a PostScript version >1?

You might pay $1000 instead of $400, or $2000 instead of $1000.

Also, I *thought* all modern printers could understand and render PDF.
Was I wrong about that?

SteveT
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:39:17 +0100
Didier Kryn  wrote:

> Le 15/03/2018 à 07:22, Steve Litt a écrit :
> >>       There are alternatives to communicating through dbus. If two
> >> processes are necessary, a socket or a pipe can do it. If more
> >> structured communication is necessary and you don't need two
> >> processes (why would you in this case), other famous applications
> >> use a kind of dynamically linked libraries (plugins).
> >>  
> > LOL, I've used the kill command from one shellscript to another to
> > tell the shellscript when to look for the next "thing". And
> > sometimes a simple FIFO is enough, as described in pages 18-20 of
> > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/presentations/leap_digitizing/leap_digitizing.pdf
> >
> > That setup between asyncronous producer and modifier programs is as
> > old as computers themselves.  
> 
>      I think the issue is with the psychology of the programmer. It's 
> possible to have fun playing with these communication tools, at least 
> for young programmer discovering them. If you're in love with C++, 
> you'll possibly enjoy D-bus, because it's designed with C++ in mind.
> And you'll interface your pocket calculator emulator with D-bus, just
> for the fun of it.  

> Not forgetting, of course, the company willing to
> make money out of complexity.

Whoa, you said that, not I. When I've implied that in the past, they
offered me a tinfoil hat and trotted out Hanlon's Razor
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor] as their justification.

When I transitioned from a hobbyist programmer to a professional one, I
learned pretty fast you need to please the custy,  and unless you're
sure you won't be the one fixing it six months from now, you need to
make it simple and robust for future changes/fixes. And as a hired-gun
programmer-analyst who wore his salesman hat one day, his systems
analyst hat the next three, and his programmer hat the next three after
that, and his debt collector hat after that, I learned that us one man
bands don't have time for scope creep.

SteveT
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Florian Zieboll writes:

I suggest you get some workout and then target the original source of
your frustration, constructively - instead of (cowardly) dissing 40+yo
script kiddies (yeah, that's me^^). This brings definitely more fun and
satisfaction, while providing at least some slight potential to
change things in a positive and sustainable manner: for you, as for
everybody else. 


I thought this morning maybe I should unsubscribe. I will do that. As you 
say, this isn't good for anyone.


Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Steve Litt writes:

As one such back seat driver, allow me to explain. When you've been
both programming and using for a long time, you get a feel for the many
ways something can be done,
...


I stopped here, because I remember what you wrote about Redis recently. 
Perhaps you don't have a feel for the many ways to do something with large 
data sets and shared-nothing architectures? You didn't let that stop you 
from writing about Redis. So here's your algorithm:


 if the software is familiar
   say something or other
 else if it's good
   exclaim how terrible it is
 else
   exclaim how terrible it is

Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:11:23 +
Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:

> backseat drivers


Hey Captain Murrica (sic!),

I suggest you get some workout and then target the original source of
your frustration, constructively - instead of (cowardly) dissing 40+yo
script kiddies (yeah, that's me^^). This brings definitely more fun and
satisfaction, while providing at least some slight potential to
change things in a positive and sustainable manner: for you, as for
everybody else. 

With honest regards,

Florian


NB: Not willing to continue this conversation, just need some hygiene
the one or other day. (Please note the constructive component!)



pgph9zYtUiTvs.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Dave Turner writes:

which network printers should we buy?


Look for something with wired ethernet, postscript and IPP, not under €300, 
not under 20kg for a BW laser. WLAN is okay but if the printer doesn't have 
wired ethernet, it's not targeted at the right market niche.


HP, Lexmark, Brother and others have a long history of making good 
printers. As well as crap — people want small lightweight cheap printers so 
the same manufacturers make that kind of printer too.


I've heard a rumour that HP has two printer divisions, printers from one 
are to be avoided, and the model numbers aren't conclusive evidence of 
origin.


Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[karl]

taii...@gmx.com"
> Is it possible to print and scan on an older hp network printer without 
> hplip/dbus? It supports LPR/PS but I have never been able to get it to 
> work properly (ie: with the extra paper trays, duplexer, dpi settings 
> etc) are there any good guides for this?

You use setpagedevice.

PostScript language reference manual
Adobe Systems Incorporated. 3rd ed.
CHAPTER 6 Device Control

 Example
<< /Duplex true /PageSize [612 792] /Collate false >>
setpagedevice

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
Aspö Data
Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 09:08:14AM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> Am 15. März 2018 08:25:33 MEZ schrieb Dave Turner 
> :
> 
> > which network printers should we buy?
> 
> Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when it 
> supports a PostScript version >1?
> 

Well, in theory you are right, and I totally agree with your point. In
practice, users normally want to use all the fancy extra features of a
printer, and not all of them can be expressed in a postscript file.

Printing under unix *is* simple, but vendors (like HP and Broadcom,
just to name two) have put a lot of effort into making it close to
impossible.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

Am 15. März 2018 08:25:33 MEZ schrieb Dave Turner 
:

> which network printers should we buy?

Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when it supports 
a PostScript version >1?

-- 

[message sent mobile]
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Dave Turner (dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk):

> I know of many printers that don't play nicely with linux, I bought
> an HP because they do work.

If 'work' means with dependency on the mostly-proprietary HPLIP printing
software, then I would suggest this is a problem.

> For future reference and anybody about
> to buy a printer:-
> 
> which network printers should we buy?

Ones that do PostScript or PCL are always a good bet, for starters.


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 15/03/2018 à 07:22, Steve Litt a écrit :

      There are alternatives to communicating through dbus. If two
processes are necessary, a socket or a pipe can do it. If more
structured communication is necessary and you don't need two
processes (why would you in this case), other famous applications use
a kind of dynamically linked libraries (plugins).


LOL, I've used the kill command from one shellscript to another to tell
the shellscript when to look for the next "thing". And sometimes a
simple FIFO is enough, as described in pages 18-20 of
http://troubleshooters.com/linux/presentations/leap_digitizing/leap_digitizing.pdf

That setup between asyncronous producer and modifier programs is as old
as computers themselves.


    I think the issue is with the psychology of the programmer. It's 
possible to have fun playing with these communication tools, at least 
for young programmer discovering them. If you're in love with C++, 
you'll possibly enjoy D-bus, because it's designed with C++ in mind. And 
you'll interface your pocket calculator emulator with D-bus, just for 
the fun of it.  Not forgetting, of course, the company willing to make 
money out of complexity.


    Didier


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Dave Turner]

On 15/03/18 06:44, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting terryc (ter...@woa.com.au):


On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400
Menelaos Maglis  wrote:


I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.
I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of

things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks
like we are stuck with it.

I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without hplip/dbus
these days...

lprng no longer an option?

Interesting fact to know and tell:  HP-branded printers _can_ be sold
off to more-credulous people, and then better, non-HP replacements
acquired.  Many people have done this and lived to tell the tale.


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


I know of many printers that don't play nicely with linux, I bought an 
HP because they do work. For future reference and anybody about to buy a 
printer:-


which network printers should we buy?

DaveT

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Rick Moen]

Quoting terryc (ter...@woa.com.au):

> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400
> Menelaos Maglis  wrote:
> 
> > > I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.  
> > 
> > > I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of  
> > things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks
> > like we are stuck with it.
> > 
> > I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without hplip/dbus
> > these days...
> 
> lprng no longer an option?

Interesting fact to know and tell:  HP-branded printers _can_ be sold
off to more-credulous people, and then better, non-HP replacements
acquired.  Many people have done this and lived to tell the tale.


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:32:26 +0100
Didier Kryn  wrote:

> Le 14/03/2018 à 10:54, KatolaZ a écrit :
> > we are losing most of the original simplicity of
> > Linux (effectively fucking up the only users who care about Linux),
> > just to serve users that will never use Linux on their desktops  
> 
>      Very well said!

Yes indeed!

SteveT
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:11:23 +
Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:

> Didier Kryn writes:
> > Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a 
> > car opens the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and 
> > then the engine starts again and the guy goes away with the car? 
> > Here we are with Linux. The BIG piece to remove was systemd, but 
> > there are quite a few others... follow my eyes.  
> 
> Be careful that you don't end up one of those backseat drivers who
> explain afterwards that implementing this or that should've been
> simple because obviously blah blah. Those people are terribly
> annoying to developers who've spent weeks or months battling tricky
> issues, trying to make the code work in many cases, for many users.

As one such back seat driver, allow me to explain. When you've been
both programming and using for a long time, you get a feel for the many
ways something can be done, and when a developer who's spent weeks or
months battling the tricky issues presented by *a specific
implementation*, such as systemd, says it's hard, often you get the
feeling it's hard because they're barking up the wrong tree. 

Example: The illustrious Lennart Poettering used autodetection of
plugged in USBs as a motive for socket-activation, the whooo-big
justification for systemd. Sounded bogus to me. Within 2 hours I had an
autodetector for usb thumb drives built, using inotifywait. Several
others, I think including Karl Hammar and Jude Nelson, and some others,
posted vastly improved versions on the DNG list.

Did we solve all the problems? Of course not. Did we devote the
programmerpower that was required to do systemd socket activation? Not
by 3 or 4 orders of magnitude.

SteveT

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:42:28 +0100
Didier Kryn  wrote:

> Le 14/03/2018 à 11:29, Florian Zieboll a écrit :
> > Hallo Didier,
> >
> > just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos
> > Maglis's. I just tried to figure out that the basics of printing
> > (like most things in computong) are a quite simple thing: pushing
> > ones and zeroes.
> >
> > Besides that: Of course, in bandwidth-limited environments, it is
> > more effective to send some (K)B of vectors over the network, than
> > a >15MB bitmap (letter@only1200dpi) to print the usually quite
> > empty page 2 of some essay and let the printer do the rendering.
> >
> > I guess that's part of why we are here: To restore the original
> > meaning of "economical":-)  
> 
>      I think we all agree there.
> 
>      Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a car
> opens the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and then the
> engine starts again and the guy goes away with the car? Here we are
> with Linux. The BIG piece to remove was systemd, but there are quite
> a few others... follow my eyes.
> 
>      There are alternatives to communicating through dbus. If two 
> processes are necessary, a socket or a pipe can do it. If more 
> structured communication is necessary and you don't need two
> processes (why would you in this case), other famous applications use
> a kind of dynamically linked libraries (plugins).
> 

LOL, I've used the kill command from one shellscript to another to tell
the shellscript when to look for the next "thing". And sometimes a
simple FIFO is enough, as described in pages 18-20 of
http://troubleshooters.com/linux/presentations/leap_digitizing/leap_digitizing.pdf

That setup between asyncronous producer and modifier programs is as old
as computers themselves.

SteveT
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-03-15 00:10, schrieb Ozi Traveller:

> I have  Virtualbox working on freebsd.

With USB Support?___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[taii...@gmx.com]

Is it possible to print and scan on an older hp network printer without 
hplip/dbus? It supports LPR/PS but I have never been able to get it to 
work properly (ie: with the extra paper trays, duplexer, dpi settings 
etc) are there any good guides for this?

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[terryc]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400
Menelaos Maglis  wrote:

> > I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.  
> 
> > I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of  
> things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks
> like we are stuck with it.
> 
> I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without hplip/dbus
> these days...

lprng no longer an option?
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Ozi Traveller]

I have  Virtualbox working on freebsd.

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 7:52 AM, J. Fahrner  wrote:

> Am 2018-03-14 21:29, schrieb Chillfan:
>
>> Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative
>> to Devuan partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy
>> to accept binary only drivers there.
>>
>
> I have no problem with binary drivers. I am not an ideologist. I like the
> concept that Kernel and User Land are of one piece. Everything centrally
> coordinated, no wild growth as under Linux. Of course, they adapt many
> things from the Linux world, because otherwise many software just would not
> run. Basically, I think BSD is much better. In real operation, however,
> there are 2 problems: many laptop functions are still immature, e.g.
> Suspend / Resume, and the software offering is even worse than under Linux.
> For example, there is no Virtualbox or VMware Player, which is important to
> me for a few Windows programs that do not exist for Linux.
>
> Jochen
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:57:33AM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:49:21AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> >     But here, the device is connected through the network; therefore it
> > cannot communicate through dbus. Dbus is used between two pieces of software
> > running on the system and there are simpler alternatives to this method.
> 
> yeah, namely. Why on Earth do we need dbus to send a print job over
> the network via lpd or http? The real answer is "we don't". The
> effective one is "the developers of hplip don't give a toss".

.oO( and what if local printing is a special case of network (localhost)? )

But then, Wayland.


-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-03-14 21:50, schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen:

chill...@protonmail.com writes:
lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no doubt you 
didn't exaggerate this.


That'll have been Chrome. A giant.


Firefox is not better!
The giant is webkit.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-03-14 21:29, schrieb Chillfan:

Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative
to Devuan partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy
to accept binary only drivers there.


I have no problem with binary drivers. I am not an ideologist. I like 
the concept that Kernel and User Land are of one piece. Everything 
centrally coordinated, no wild growth as under Linux. Of course, they 
adapt many things from the Linux world, because otherwise many software 
just would not run. Basically, I think BSD is much better. In real 
operation, however, there are 2 problems: many laptop functions are 
still immature, e.g. Suspend / Resume, and the software offering is even 
worse than under Linux. For example, there is no Virtualbox or VMware 
Player, which is important to me for a few Windows programs that do not 
exist for Linux.


Jochen
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

chill...@protonmail.com writes:
lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no 
doubt you didn't exaggerate this.


That'll have been Chrome. A giant. It includes several compilers and lots 
of libraries. The only things I've seen that are comparable are gcc (over a 
gigabyte of source code when I had to look at it), glibc, llvm and kde. 
Maybe boost. Boost is okay if you have PCH support, but that's rare on 
linux.


Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Chillfan]

Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative to Devuan 
partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy to accept binary 
only drivers there.

That said there is some simplistic value to freebsd, but they are also using 
dbus where it's not appropriate. I guess that's why you are compiling your own 
software there. My answer to that is if they declare war on blobs and stop 
trying to "be like linux" they'll have a fine OS there.

lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no doubt you didn't 
exaggerate this.


​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On 14 March 2018 8:07 PM, J. Fahrner  wrote:

> Am 2018-03-14 20:50, schrieb Chillfan:
> 
> > This is one of the best tear downs of dbus I've seen.
> > 
> > The thinking seems to be based purely on trends, e.g "You guys are
> > 
> > going with dbus, right? OK let's do that." even if it makes no sense
> > 
> > for the use case.
> 
> I'm exactly with you! Last year I tried a switch to FreeBSD, because I
> 
> was not satisfied with Linux. In german we say "Too many cooks spoil the
> 
> broth". That's what I feel with Linux. In FreeBSD you can compile all
> 
> packages from source. I was shocked seeing the compilation of a stupid
> 
> browser takes a multiple of time than the whole rest of the system! Can
> 
> someone explain, why a stupid web browser takes more resources than the
> 
> whole kernel and user space of a unix system? Whats going wrong there???
> 
> I think we should stop this madness! Back to the roots!
> 
> Jochen
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-03-14 20:50, schrieb Chillfan:

This is one of the best tear downs of dbus I've seen.

The thinking seems to be based purely on trends, e.g "You guys are
going with dbus, right? OK let's do that." even if it makes no sense
for the use case.


I'm exactly with you! Last year I tried a switch to FreeBSD, because I 
was not satisfied with Linux. In german we say "Too many cooks spoil the 
broth". That's what I feel with Linux. In FreeBSD you can compile all 
packages from source. I was shocked seeing the compilation of a stupid 
browser takes a multiple of time than the whole rest of the system! Can 
someone explain, why a stupid web browser takes more resources than the 
whole kernel and user space of a unix system? Whats going wrong there???


I think we should stop this madness! Back to the roots!

Jochen
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

J. Fahrner writes:
That's also what I do. I have a Brother DCP-7045N connected as 
network printer with lpd protocol. I can install it with a 
single ppd file, but then printing is VERY SLOW. Printing is 
fast with the Brother supplied "cupswrapper" driver, but this is 
only available as 32bit package, and that is ugly on a 64bit 
system. Has someone hints how to debug the issue with slow 
printing using only the ppd description (without cupswrapper)?
The cups structure seems very complex to me, and I don't know 
where to start.


It is very complex, hardly anyone need all of what cups offers. Try these:

curl http://rant.gulbrandsen.priv.no/dl/test.ps | lpr

curl http://rant.gulbrandsen.priv.no/dl/test.ps | lpr -o raw

Is the first print job slow and the second fast? If so, cups is doing work 
you don't need. If not, it's something else. Are both slow or both fast?


Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-03-14 13:05, schrieb Simon Hobson:

FWIW, while it generally costs more, I've always (both for work and
home) tried to stick to Postscript [compatible] printers.


That's also what I do. I have a Brother DCP-7045N connected as network 
printer with lpd protocol. I can install it with a single ppd file, but 
then printing is VERY SLOW. Printing is fast with the Brother supplied 
"cupswrapper" driver, but this is only available as 32bit package, and 
that is ugly on a 64bit system. Has someone hints how to debug the issue 
with slow printing using only the ppd description (without cupswrapper)?
The cups structure seems very complex to me, and I don't know where to 
start.


Jochen
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Menelaos Maglis]

> It's $%@#$!@#$!@# annoying when people come afterwards and explain how
simple a task is, and clearly have no idea about the complexities and
problems.

> Maybe d-bus is a poor fit for hplip. I don't know and I suspect you don't
either.

We do. Although the word "simple" is not the main point, I see it tripped you. 
I apologize.

Simple is the result of the hard work of people, I assume like you, put on a 
complex and difficult task.

This simplicity we value and want preserved.___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Simon Hobson]

Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:

> FWIW, other printers are handled using some other IPC protocol. Same 
> information sent back and forth, but a different socket and protocol. My 
> Brother MFC8880 uses IPP and... I forget the name of the other protocol.

FWIW, while it generally costs more, I've always (both for work and home) tried 
to stick to Postscript [compatible] printers. With a well written single 
driver, you can print to ANY Postscript driver and get the same result subject 
to the capabilities of the printer - none of this having to know the resolution 
like with HPGL. By adding a capabilities file, you can intelligently use the 
features that are available - that's how the Mac "LaserWriter" driver worked, 
all you needed was a '.ppc' file to use printer specific capabilities.


You can also, with a little effort, modify the print job between source and 
printer. One time (on a SCO OpenServer system we ran the company on), I 
redefined the showpage operator at the beginning of certain jobs so that 
printed faxes would have a header (date, time, phone number) with the text 
outlined in white so as to still be readable if over a black background. That's 
a darned lot harder to do with an HPGL job.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:11:23AM +, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Some things not mentioned today: Problems because rendering whole pages to
> bitmaps on the client needs so much RAM that the UI grows unresponsive,
> other problems if the client renders the pages in sequence to save RAM and
> the user closes the laptop once the first page starts printing, yet other
> problems if the printer runs out of RAM while rendering the current page
> because it's allocated too much RAM to buffering giant subsequent pages, yet
> other problems if the printer driver avoids using bitmaps and the printer
> firmware misrenders an embedded font.
> 
> It's $%@#$!@#$!@# annoying when people come afterwards and explain how
> simple a task is, and clearly have no idea about the complexities and
> problems.
> 
> Maybe d-bus is a poor fit for hplip. I don't know and I suspect you don't
> either.
> 

My poor understanding of the matter is that the dbus dependency is
necessary mainly to let fancy GUI applications talk to hplip, and to
obey "session-related" policies, not for hplip to do anything in
particular with the print job. And I could not imagine hplip needing
dbus to do anything at all with a job to be sent over the network
(i.e., not to the USB printer attached to the same host that talked to
hplip).

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Menelaos Maglis (mmag...@metacom.gr):

> So I am left with below choices:
> 
> * Accept no printing
> * Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible
> * Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the 
> abilities/motivation.
> 
> At least this is an option in free software world.

As a reminder, HPLIP isn't actually even open source.  It's open _core_.
This matter is frequently misunderstood, and HP actively participates in
misleading people in many individual ways including the domain name of
the upstream developer site, http://hplipopensource.com/ .  

(Ah, I see that is now a redirect to
https://developers.hp.com/hp-linux-imaging-and-printing .  That's
relatively new.)

HP does a bait and switch concerning this matter, whereby, yes, the core
engine of HPLIP is a stew of code (mostly Python) under GPL, MIT, and
BSD-ish licences, and the filter ('driver') modules for many old and
low-end HP printer models are likewise, but the codebase is totally
useless for _most_ HP printer models without huge proprietary BLOBs,
containing HP's 'secret sauces' and almost all of the effort and
complexity.  This is one of the main reasons why, for decades, HP
printers have, in general, been a bottom-of-the-barrel choice for free
software / open source reasons.

I distinctly remember, when the omnibus HPLIP project was new and the
http://hplipopensource.com/ , thinking 'Hurrah!  HP is seeing the light
and fully supporting Linux and open source.'  HP was sending engineers
to Linux Printing Summits, and we all smiled and thought, 'See?  This is
how progress happens.'

And then, a bunch of us looked closer.  One of the turning points was we
started asking, 'Hey, this is supposed to be open source and even
bundled right _in_ Linux distributions as distro packages, so, _why_ is
it that the first thing that happens when you configure a printer in
HPLIP is that HPLIP says "You're going to have to download file $FOO
from HP's public site"?'  And the answer was:  Because the allegedly
open source nature was a sham and a con job.

My constant, frank advice to Linux users ever since, and that was a
couple of decades ago, has been 'Never buy HP printers, with very rare
exceptions, to use with Linux.  If stuck with one, again with very rare
exceptions, sell it to some other poor slob.'

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it's testimony to just how
thoroughly HP conned the Linux world that, decades further on, many of
my Linux friends are still catching up with that bad news.


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Didier Kryn writes:
Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a 
car opens the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and 
then the engine starts again and the guy goes away with the car? 
Here we are with Linux. The BIG piece to remove was systemd, but 
there are quite a few others... follow my eyes.


Be careful that you don't end up one of those backseat drivers who explain 
afterwards that implementing this or that should've been simple because 
obviously blah blah. Those people are terribly annoying to developers 
who've spent weeks or months battling tricky issues, trying to make the 
code work in many cases, for many users.


Some things not mentioned today: Problems because rendering whole pages to 
bitmaps on the client needs so much RAM that the UI grows unresponsive, 
other problems if the client renders the pages in sequence to save RAM and 
the user closes the laptop once the first page starts printing, yet other 
problems if the printer runs out of RAM while rendering the current page 
because it's allocated too much RAM to buffering giant subsequent pages, 
yet other problems if the printer driver avoids using bitmaps and the 
printer firmware misrenders an embedded font.


It's $%@#$!@#$!@# annoying when people come afterwards and explain how 
simple a task is, and clearly have no idea about the complexities and 
problems.


Maybe d-bus is a poor fit for hplip. I don't know and I suspect you don't 
either.


Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 14/03/2018 à 11:29, Florian Zieboll a écrit :

Hallo Didier,

just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos Maglis's. I just 
tried to figure out that the basics of printing (like most things in computong) 
are a quite simple thing: pushing ones and zeroes.

Besides that: Of course, in bandwidth-limited environments, it is more effective 
to send some (K)B of vectors over the network, than a >15MB bitmap 
(letter@only1200dpi) to print the usually quite empty page 2 of some essay and let 
the printer do the rendering.

I guess that's part of why we are here: To restore the original meaning of 
"economical":-)


    I think we all agree there.

    Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a car opens 
the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and then the engine 
starts again and the guy goes away with the car? Here we are with Linux. 
The BIG piece to remove was systemd, but there are quite a few others... 
follow my eyes.


    There are alternatives to communicating through dbus. If two 
processes are necessary, a socket or a pipe can do it. If more 
structured communication is necessary and you don't need two processes 
(why would you in this case), other famous applications use a kind of 
dynamically linked libraries (plugins).


    Didier


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Menelaos Maglis writes:
Why should an application need a system bus to pass messages 
between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able 
to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I 
am aware. Why not keep using the same method/interfaces that are 
proven for decades? What is the benefit? How are printers from 
other manufacturers supported? 


FWIW, other printers are handled using some other IPC protocol. Same 
information sent back and forth, but a different socket and protocol. My 
Brother MFC8880 uses IPP and... I forget the name of the other protocol.


Many HP printers can also be handled witout hplip. If you absolutely want 
something from HP, the M506dn looks like a fine printer that ought to work 
reliably for many years without peculiar host software.


Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 14/03/2018 à 10:54, KatolaZ a écrit :

we are losing most of the original simplicity of
Linux (effectively fucking up the only users who care about Linux),
just to serve users that will never use Linux on their desktops


    Very well said!


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

Am 14. März 2018 10:49:21 MEZ schrieb Didier Kryn :
> 
>      Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the 
> software to ask the devices what their properties are, by some
> protocol. 
 

Hallo Didier, 

just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos Maglis's. I just 
tried to figure out that the basics of printing (like most things in computong) 
are a quite simple thing: pushing ones and zeroes.

Besides that: Of course, in bandwidth-limited environments, it is more 
effective to send some (K)B of vectors over the network, than a >15MB bitmap 
(letter@only1200dpi) to print the usually quite empty page 2 of some essay and 
let the printer do the rendering. 

I guess that's part of why we are here: To restore the original meaning of 
"economical" :-)

libre Grüße,

Florian


-- 

[message sent mobile]
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 schrieb Menelaos Maglis:
> > Can't ask users about such
> tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you
> can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its
> users know about it.
> 
> D-Bus is used for communication between processes. So the configuration and 
> operation of a printer is split between several different components, which 
> use D-Bus to communicate with each other.
> 
> I question this architecture. Why should an application need a system bus to 
> pass messages between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able 
> to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I am aware. Why 
> not keep using the same method/interfaces that are proven for decades? What 
> is the benefit? How are printers from other manufacturers supported?
> 
> Above architecture /may/ be beneficial to a number of use cases. E.g. 
> interactive desktop users that want also a simple GUI tool in an integrated 
> desktop environment. Imposing a hard dependency on an additional component 
> (D-Bus) may not server other use cases well or at all if they cannot use 
> D-Bus.
> 
> So I am left with below choices:
> 
> * Accept no printing
> * Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible
> * Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the 
> abilities/motivation.
> 
> At least this is an option in free software world.

Well, HP printers suffer from planed oobsolescence, so you can sit out the 
problem. Just don't replace a HP by an other HP ...

nik


-- 
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA, CIA ...
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

kato...@freaknet.org writes:

yeah, namely. Why on Earth do we need dbus to send a print job over
the network via lpd or http? The real answer is "we don't". The
effective one is "the developers of hplip don't give a toss".


Yet another answer is: The developers don't see another way that's both 
implemented and so much better that it's worth bothering about.


(I'm using a computer with 16 GB RAM and four CPU cores to type a couple of 
parapgraphs of text now. Ridiculously overpowered for such a simple task. 
But I have the computer in my office, why should I bother to use anything 
less?)


Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:49:21AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:

[cut]

> 
>     Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the software to
> ask the devices what their properties are, by some protocol. This is nice
> for the dummy/lazzy user we are all up to some point.
> 
>     But here, the device is connected through the network; therefore it
> cannot communicate through dbus. Dbus is used between two pieces of software
> running on the system and there are simpler alternatives to this method.
> 

yeah, namely. Why on Earth do we need dbus to send a print job over
the network via lpd or http? The real answer is "we don't". The
effective one is "the developers of hplip don't give a toss".

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 05:45:54AM -0400, Menelaos Maglis wrote:
> > Can't ask users about such
> tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you
> can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its
> users know about it.
> 
> D-Bus is used for communication between processes. So the configuration and 
> operation of a printer is split between several different components, which 
> use D-Bus to communicate with each other.
> 
> I question this architecture. Why should an application need a system bus to 
> pass messages between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able 
> to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I am aware. Why 
> not keep using the same method/interfaces that are proven for decades? What 
> is the benefit? How are printers from other manufacturers supported?

You should complain with the developers of hplip. The madness about
using heavy frameworks for IPC seems contagious. For some reason,
nobody can write a program that uses standard text interfaces any
more. 

> 
> Above architecture /may/ be beneficial to a number of use cases. E.g. 
> interactive desktop users that want also a simple GUI tool in an integrated 
> desktop environment. Imposing a hard dependency on an additional component 
> (D-Bus) may not server other use cases well or at all if they cannot use 
> D-Bus.
> 
> So I am left with below choices:
> 
> * Accept no printing
> * Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible
> * Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the 
> abilities/motivation.
> 
> At least this is an option in free software world.

The problem is that a huge fraction of Linux vendors still believe
that "This is the year of Linux on desktops" (something we have been
told since around 2005, I guess). Or they simply decide to cover up
poor architecture designs by false promises.

The result is that we are losing most of the original simplicity of
Linux (effectively fucking up the only users who care about Linux),
just to serve users that will never use Linux on their desktops
anyway.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 14/03/2018 à 09:44, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :

Didier Kryn writes:
    You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's essential, 
isn't it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal computer probably 
with the first McIntosh, in 1982. Not sure it's more 
feature-rich today than 10 years ago, when it wasn't depending on 
dbus.


I wrote a printer driver back then. It used user-bus. "Tell me, dear 
user, whether the printer has and supports. A4 or funny american 
paper? Duplex?"


If I were more ambitious I'd have asked more complicated questions. 
For example, if you want to avoid printer firmware bugs it's generally 
smart to send a large bitmap, but if you aim for high quality output 
and a high page rate, you want to avoid sending bitmaps. Can't ask 
users about such tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to 
answer. These days you can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer 
knows more about itself than its users know about it. 


    Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the 
software to ask the devices what their properties are, by some protocol. 
This is nice for the dummy/lazzy user we are all up to some point.


    But here, the device is connected through the network; therefore it 
cannot communicate through dbus. Dbus is used between two pieces of 
software running on the system and there are simpler alternatives to 
this method.


        Didier

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Menelaos Maglis]

> Can't ask users about such
tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you
can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its
users know about it.

D-Bus is used for communication between processes. So the configuration and 
operation of a printer is split between several different components, which use 
D-Bus to communicate with each other.

I question this architecture. Why should an application need a system bus to 
pass messages between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able 
to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I am aware. Why 
not keep using the same method/interfaces that are proven for decades? What is 
the benefit? How are printers from other manufacturers supported?

Above architecture /may/ be beneficial to a number of use cases. E.g. 
interactive desktop users that want also a simple GUI tool in an integrated 
desktop environment. Imposing a hard dependency on an additional component 
(D-Bus) may not server other use cases well or at all if they cannot use D-Bus.

So I am left with below choices:

* Accept no printing
* Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible
* Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the 
abilities/motivation.

At least this is an option in free software world.___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Didier Kryn writes:
You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's 
essential, isn't it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal 
computer probably with the first McIntosh, in 1982. Not 
sure it's more feature-rich today than 10 years ago, when it 
wasn't depending on dbus.


I wrote a printer driver back then. It used user-bus. "Tell me, dear user, 
whether the printer has and supports. A4 or funny american paper? Duplex?"


If I were more ambitious I'd have asked more complicated questions. For 
example, if you want to avoid printer firmware bugs it's generally smart to 
send a large bitmap, but if you aim for high quality output and a high page 
rate, you want to avoid sending bitmaps. Can't ask users about such 
tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you 
can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its 
users know about it.


Arnt

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Menelaos Maglis]

> > "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.

> Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your 
> document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to the printer. Many 
> printers (like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of correctly resolved 
> bitmaps.

I agree there. Printing on paper is a " done" task.

That was not really my argument. I do not see the reason to /require/ dbus to 
be able to simply print to a huge class of devices (HP). Especially after 
decades of printing without it.

If you have a system use case without dbus, then you cannot print. This is 
plain wrong to me.___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

Am 14. März 2018 09:29:08 MEZ schrieb Florian Zieboll :
> 
> Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your
> document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to the
> printer. Many printers (like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of
> correctly resolved bitmaps

s/resolved/RIP'ed/

-- 

[message sent mobile]
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Didier Kryn]

Le 14/03/2018 à 08:45, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :

"Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.


    You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's essential, isn't 
it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal computer probably with the 
first McIntosh, in 1982. Not sure it's more feature-rich today 
than 10 years ago, when it wasn't depending on dbus.


    Didier


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Florian Zieboll]

Am 14. März 2018 08:45:00 MEZ schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen 
:
> 
> "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.


Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your document 
(or four im case of color printing) and send it to the printer. Many printers 
(like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of correctly resolved bitmaps.

libre Grüße,

Florian


-- 

[message sent mobile]
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Menelaos Maglis]

> I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.

> I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of
things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks
like we are stuck with it.

I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without hplip/dbus these 
days...

> Apart from being unable to print, what happens in your system without
elogind or the various 'pam' things that need dbus?

> What are you using instead of them?

For display manager you are left with either xdm or wdm. Alternatively, strartx 
from the console.

There are a number of dbus-free window managers eg. openbox, i3

Check:

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/devuan-without-dbus.md

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/dbus-free-software.md

--
Sent from ProtonMail mobile___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Dave Turner]

On 13/03/18 20:09, Menelaos Maglis wrote:

Hi,

I tried to print from a D-Bus free system to a HP DeskJet, WiFi connected, 
printer.
CUPS is installed but complained about missing back-end.

/var/log/cups/error.log:
Stopping job because the scheduler could not execute the backend.
File \"/usr/lib/cups/backend/hp\" not available: No such file or directory

hplip, which I know works with the printer, depends on D-Bus and is currently 
not installed.
What "backend" am I missing?
Can I print without D-Bus?

Regards,
Menelaos

--
​Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.​


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.

I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of 
things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks 
like we are stuck with it.


Apart from being unable to print, what happens in your system without 
elogind or the various 'pam' things that need dbus?


What are you using instead of them?

I just might be about to learn something new!

DaveT

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng