Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-19 Thread Peter Flynn 
On 10/18/2016 07:51 PM, Bob Stayton wrote:
> The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML
> Schema version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to
> hear from any members of the DocBook community who would be affected
> by this change.

RNG + DTD is fine with me. None of my clients use the XSD.

///Peter

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Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-19 Thread Klaus Malorny 

On 18.10.2016 20:51, Bob Stayton wrote:
The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema version 
of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear from any members of the 
DocBook community who would be affected by this change.


Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our long 
term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards 
compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook community 
relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new major version number, we 
treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that are not backwards 
compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we foresee such changes 
coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced notice to prepare for them.


We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron 
rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.


However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving 
burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion program, 
and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure if anyone is actually 
using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the effort.  If you are 
using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please let us know.


You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the mailing 
list.




Hi,

I have to admit that at the moment I do only quite few things with DocBook at 
all, but I am currently writing some DocBook oriented software for my personal 
use. So I am in no way any kind of a "power" user of DocBook.


For my project, which shall include validation eventually, I did some first 
research and was quite disappointed about the availability of libraries that 
implement Relax validation. On the other hand, XML Schema is IMHO the de facto 
standard everywhere else (and validation is part of the Java Runtime), so the 
motion is surprising me. I would have rather expected that the other way round, 
similarly to the drop of SGML in favor of XML.


Just my two cents.

Regards,

Klaus

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[docbook] Re: [docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-18 Thread Mark Craig 
Hi,

At present we are using declarations that reference the XSD, such as:

http://docbook.org/ns/docbook; version="5.0" xml:lang="en"
  xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance;
  xsi:schemaLocation="http://docbook.org/ns/docbook
  http://docbook.org/xml/5.0/xsd/docbook.xsd;
  xmlns:xinclude="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude;>
...


It looks like the XMLSchema-related attributes are unnecessary. In other
words, if I remove cached schemas from my editor (using IntelliJ IDEA),
edit the book and open it again, this appears to work fine as well for
validation and tag completion and so forth:

http://docbook.org/ns/docbook; version="5.0" xml:lang="en"
  xmlns:xinclude="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude;>
...


How does an editor know how to resolve that to
http://docbook.org/xml/5.0/rng/docbook.rng?

We also use a tool for validation and link checking that currently uses the
XSD, though it can no doubt be changed to use the RNG.

Regards,
Mark

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Steve Ball 
wrote:

> Hi Bob,
>
> I manage a large schema that uses DocBook 5. The normative schema is
> RelaxNG. This schema is automatically translated to XSD using Trang, but
> the resulting XSD files have to be post-processed in order to fix them
> before they are useable by consumers.
>
> DocBook 6 in pure RelaxNG+Schematron would be fine with me.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Ball
>
> > On 19 Oct 2016, at 5:51 AM, Bob Stayton  wrote:
> >
> > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
> version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear from any
> members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
> >
> > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our
> long term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining
> backwards compatibility on point releases because we know how much the
> DocBook community relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new
> major version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes
> that are not backwards compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we
> foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced
> notice to prepare for them.
> >
> > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
> Schematron rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
> >
> > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is
> proving burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a
> conversion program, and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure
> if anyone is actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is
> worth the effort.  If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD,
> please let us know.
> >
> > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the
> mailing list.
> >
> > --
> > Bob Stayton
> > Sagehill Enterprises
> > b...@sagehill.net
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
> >
>
>
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>
>

Re: [docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-18 Thread Mark Craig 
Hi,

At present we are using declarations that reference the XSD, such as:

http://docbook.org/ns/docbook; version="5.0" xml:lang="en"
  xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance;
  xsi:schemaLocation="http://docbook.org/ns/docbook
  http://docbook.org/xml/5.0/xsd/docbook.xsd;
  xmlns:xinclude="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude;>
...


It looks like the XMLSchema-related attributes are unnecessary. In other
words, if I remove cached schemas from my editor (using IntelliJ IDEA),
edit the book and open it again, this appears to work fine as well for
validation and tag completion and so forth:

http://docbook.org/ns/docbook; version="5.0" xml:lang="en"
  xmlns:xinclude="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude;>
...


How does an editor know how to resolve that to
http://docbook.org/xml/5.0/rng/docbook.rng?

We also use a tool for validation and link checking that currently uses the
XSD, though it can no doubt be changed to use the RNG.

Regards,
Mark

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Steve Ball 
wrote:

> Hi Bob,
>
> I manage a large schema that uses DocBook 5. The normative schema is
> RelaxNG. This schema is automatically translated to XSD using Trang, but
> the resulting XSD files have to be post-processed in order to fix them
> before they are useable by consumers.
>
> DocBook 6 in pure RelaxNG+Schematron would be fine with me.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Ball
>
> > On 19 Oct 2016, at 5:51 AM, Bob Stayton  wrote:
> >
> > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
> version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear from any
> members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
> >
> > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our
> long term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining
> backwards compatibility on point releases because we know how much the
> DocBook community relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new
> major version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes
> that are not backwards compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we
> foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced
> notice to prepare for them.
> >
> > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
> Schematron rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
> >
> > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is
> proving burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a
> conversion program, and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure
> if anyone is actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is
> worth the effort.  If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD,
> please let us know.
> >
> > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the
> mailing list.
> >
> > --
> > Bob Stayton
> > Sagehill Enterprises
> > b...@sagehill.net
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
> >
>
>
> -
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>
>

Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-18 Thread Steve Ball 
Hi Bob,

I manage a large schema that uses DocBook 5. The normative schema is RelaxNG. 
This schema is automatically translated to XSD using Trang, but the resulting 
XSD files have to be post-processed in order to fix them before they are 
useable by consumers.

DocBook 6 in pure RelaxNG+Schematron would be fine with me.

Cheers,
Steve Ball

> On 19 Oct 2016, at 5:51 AM, Bob Stayton  wrote:
> 
> The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema 
> version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear from any 
> members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
> 
> Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our long 
> term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards 
> compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook 
> community relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new major 
> version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that are 
> not backwards compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we foresee 
> such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced notice to 
> prepare for them.
> 
> We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron 
> rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
> 
> However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving 
> burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion program, 
> and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure if anyone is actually 
> using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the effort.  If you 
> are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please let us know.
> 
> You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the mailing 
> list.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Stayton
> Sagehill Enterprises
> b...@sagehill.net
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
> 


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[docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-18 Thread Steve Ball 
Hi Bob,

I manage a large schema that uses DocBook 5. The normative schema is RelaxNG. 
This schema is automatically translated to XSD using Trang, but the resulting 
XSD files have to be post-processed in order to fix them before they are 
useable by consumers.

DocBook 6 in pure RelaxNG+Schematron would be fine with me.

Cheers,
Steve Ball

> On 19 Oct 2016, at 5:51 AM, Bob Stayton  wrote:
> 
> The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema 
> version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear from any 
> members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
> 
> Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our long 
> term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards 
> compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook 
> community relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new major 
> version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that are 
> not backwards compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we foresee 
> such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced notice to 
> prepare for them.
> 
> We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron 
> rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
> 
> However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving 
> burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion program, 
> and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure if anyone is actually 
> using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the effort.  If you 
> are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please let us know.
> 
> You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the mailing 
> list.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Stayton
> Sagehill Enterprises
> b...@sagehill.net
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
> 


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Re: [docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-18 Thread Ron Catterall 

DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron does all I need
Ron

On 10/18/2016 03:27 PM, Tim Arnold wrote:

I don't use xsd either.
I use docbook.nvdl with the onvdl program.

thanks for asking!
--Tim


On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Dave Pawson > wrote:

+ for rng only.
I can honestly say I've never used xml schema for docbook (or anything
else for that matter)
   I do validate many instances though, using Jing / oXygen
regards

On 18 October 2016 at 19:51, Bob Stayton > wrote:
> The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
> version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear
from any
> members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
>
> Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part
of our long
> term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining
backwards
> compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook
> community relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new major
> version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce
changes that
> are not backwards compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we
> foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very
advanced
> notice to prepare for them.
>
> We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
Schematron
> rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
>
> However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is
proving
> burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion
> program, and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure if
anyone is
> actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the
> effort.  If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD,
please let
> us know.
>
> You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on
the mailing
> list.
>
> --
> Bob Stayton
> Sagehill Enterprises
> b...@sagehill.net 
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org

> For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-h...@lists.oasis-open.org

>



--
Dave Pawson
XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
Docbook FAQ.
http://www.dpawson.co.uk

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--
Ron Catterall
r...@catterall.net

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Re: [docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-18 Thread Tim Arnold 
I don't use xsd either.
I use docbook.nvdl with the onvdl program.

thanks for asking!
--Tim


On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Dave Pawson  wrote:

> + for rng only.
> I can honestly say I've never used xml schema for docbook (or anything
> else for that matter)
>I do validate many instances though, using Jing / oXygen
> regards
>
> On 18 October 2016 at 19:51, Bob Stayton  wrote:
> > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
> > version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear from any
> > members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
> >
> > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our
> long
> > term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards
> > compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook
> > community relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new major
> > version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that
> > are not backwards compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we
> > foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced
> > notice to prepare for them.
> >
> > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
> Schematron
> > rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
> >
> > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving
> > burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion
> > program, and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure if
> anyone is
> > actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the
> > effort.  If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please
> let
> > us know.
> >
> > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the
> mailing
> > list.
> >
> > --
> > Bob Stayton
> > Sagehill Enterprises
> > b...@sagehill.net
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Pawson
> XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
> Docbook FAQ.
> http://www.dpawson.co.uk
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
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>
>

[docbook] Re: [docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-18 Thread Tim Arnold 
I don't use xsd either.
I use docbook.nvdl with the onvdl program.

thanks for asking!
--Tim


On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Dave Pawson  wrote:

> + for rng only.
> I can honestly say I've never used xml schema for docbook (or anything
> else for that matter)
>I do validate many instances though, using Jing / oXygen
> regards
>
> On 18 October 2016 at 19:51, Bob Stayton  wrote:
> > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
> > version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear from any
> > members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
> >
> > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our
> long
> > term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards
> > compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook
> > community relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new major
> > version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that
> > are not backwards compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we
> > foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced
> > notice to prepare for them.
> >
> > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
> Schematron
> > rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
> >
> > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving
> > burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion
> > program, and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure if
> anyone is
> > actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the
> > effort.  If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please
> let
> > us know.
> >
> > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the
> mailing
> > list.
> >
> > --
> > Bob Stayton
> > Sagehill Enterprises
> > b...@sagehill.net
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Pawson
> XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
> Docbook FAQ.
> http://www.dpawson.co.uk
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
>
>

[docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-18 Thread Dave Pawson 
+ for rng only.
I can honestly say I've never used xml schema for docbook (or anything
else for that matter)
   I do validate many instances though, using Jing / oXygen
regards

On 18 October 2016 at 19:51, Bob Stayton  wrote:
> The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
> version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear from any
> members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
>
> Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our long
> term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards
> compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook
> community relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new major
> version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that
> are not backwards compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we
> foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced
> notice to prepare for them.
>
> We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron
> rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
>
> However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving
> burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion
> program, and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure if anyone is
> actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the
> effort.  If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please let
> us know.
>
> You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the mailing
> list.
>
> --
> Bob Stayton
> Sagehill Enterprises
> b...@sagehill.net
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
>



-- 
Dave Pawson
XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
Docbook FAQ.
http://www.dpawson.co.uk

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Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

2016-10-18 Thread Dave Pawson 
+ for rng only.
I can honestly say I've never used xml schema for docbook (or anything
else for that matter)
   I do validate many instances though, using Jing / oXygen
regards

On 18 October 2016 at 19:51, Bob Stayton  wrote:
> The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
> version of DocBook in a future version 6.  We would like to hear from any
> members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
>
> Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our long
> term planning.  The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards
> compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook
> community relies on stable sources.  When DocBook rolls to a new major
> version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that
> are not backwards compatible.  The change from 4 to 5 was such.  If we
> foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced
> notice to prepare for them.
>
> We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron
> rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
>
> However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving
> burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion
> program, and requires manual tweaking.  Because we are not sure if anyone is
> actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the
> effort.  If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please let
> us know.
>
> You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the mailing
> list.
>
> --
> Bob Stayton
> Sagehill Enterprises
> b...@sagehill.net
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
>



-- 
Dave Pawson
XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
Docbook FAQ.
http://www.dpawson.co.uk

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