Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2016-04-14 Thread Tom Davies 
Hi :)
It is small volumes at the moment.  I think it's about 6 strings this
time.
Regards from
Tom :)
On 13 Apr 2016 13:41, "Sophie"  wrote:

> Hi Peter,
> Le 13/04/2016 14:19, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
> > Hello Peter
> >
> > Are you refering to help content or Guide Books?
> >
> > On Guide books, there is no need for bugzilla.
> >
> > On help contents, then it worth to note that HC is translated into
> > several languages. A change in the English string due to a style
> > improvement will put the string in fuzzy state, forcing the translators
> > to review the string. This is not always fun for them, because each
> > language has its style and the change in English may not apply for the
> > target language (I speak for myself because I am a translator). So in
> > case of HelpContent, I recomend proceeding changes of style only when
> > the help file is being touched by a content update, to prevent a massive
> > batch of string review.
>
> I completely second Olivier here. If there is a possibility of scripting
> to avoid the fuzzy tags on the target languages, then no problem.
> Otherwise, like Olivier said, better to wait for an update or proceed
> only with small volumes.
> Cheers
> Sophie
> --
> Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org
> GSM: +33683901545
> IRC: sophi
> Co-founder - Release coordinator
> The Document Foundation
>
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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2016-04-13 Thread ptoye 
Sophi and Olivier,

I'm referring to help content only. The changes that I'm making are cosmetic - 
either removing grammatical errors ("allow to") or inserting articles. They 
shouldn't need translating as I'm sure the translators have already corrected 
this in their own languages.

I intend to change 8 files only. I have found a problem, though (see my latest 
thread), and will wait for this to be cleared up before submitting anything.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

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Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 1:41:26 PM, you wrote:


Hi Peter, 
Le 13/04/2016 14:19, Olivier Hallot a écrit : 

> Hello Peter 
> 
> Are you refering to help content or Guide Books? 
> 
> On Guide books, there is no need for bugzilla. 
> 
> On help contents, then it worth to note that HC is translated into 
> several languages. A change in the English string due to a style 
> improvement will put the string in fuzzy state, forcing the translators 
> to review the string. This is not always fun for them, because each 
> language has its style and the change in English may not apply for the 
> target language (I speak for myself because I am a translator). So in 
> case of HelpContent, I recomend proceeding changes of style only when 
> the help file is being touched by a content update, to prevent a massive 
> batch of string review. 

I completely second Olivier here. If there is a possibility of scripting 
to avoid the fuzzy tags on the target languages, then no problem. 
Otherwise, like Olivier said, better to wait for an update or proceed 
only with small volumes. 
Cheers 
Sophie 
-- 
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GSM: +33683901545 
IRC: sophi 
Co-founder - Release coordinator 
The Document Foundation 

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2016-04-13 Thread Sophie 
Hi Peter,
Le 13/04/2016 14:19, Olivier Hallot a écrit :
> Hello Peter
> 
> Are you refering to help content or Guide Books?
> 
> On Guide books, there is no need for bugzilla.
> 
> On help contents, then it worth to note that HC is translated into
> several languages. A change in the English string due to a style
> improvement will put the string in fuzzy state, forcing the translators
> to review the string. This is not always fun for them, because each
> language has its style and the change in English may not apply for the
> target language (I speak for myself because I am a translator). So in
> case of HelpContent, I recomend proceeding changes of style only when
> the help file is being touched by a content update, to prevent a massive
> batch of string review.

I completely second Olivier here. If there is a possibility of scripting
to avoid the fuzzy tags on the target languages, then no problem.
Otherwise, like Olivier said, better to wait for an update or proceed
only with small volumes.
Cheers
Sophie
-- 
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GSM: +33683901545
IRC: sophi
Co-founder - Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2016-04-13 Thread Olivier Hallot 
Hello Peter

Are you refering to help content or Guide Books?

On Guide books, there is no need for bugzilla.

On help contents, then it worth to note that HC is translated into
several languages. A change in the English string due to a style
improvement will put the string in fuzzy state, forcing the translators
to review the string. This is not always fun for them, because each
language has its style and the change in English may not apply for the
target language (I speak for myself because I am a translator). So in
case of HelpContent, I recomend proceeding changes of style only when
the help file is being touched by a content update, to prevent a massive
batch of string review.

And to answer your question, no need for bugzilla for style changes,
only for content change, update or creation.

Kind regards

Olivier

Em 13/04/2016 05:51, ptoye escreveu:
> One further issue: I don't know the LO bureaucracy but the "allow to" issue
> hasn't been filed as a bug in Bugzilla. Should I do this or isn't it
> necessary?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
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> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Use-of-allow-to-in-documentation-tp4167829p4181012.html
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> 

-- 
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http://ask.libreoffice.org/pt-br

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2016-04-13 Thread ptoye 
One further issue: I don't know the LO bureaucracy but the "allow to" issue
hasn't been filed as a bug in Bugzilla. Should I do this or isn't it
necessary?




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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2016-04-11 Thread ptoye 
Olivier,

Thank you. I'll do that. Then I'll have the fun of working out how to upload to 
Gerrit. Never a dull moment.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

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Monday, April 11, 2016, 5:36:48 PM, you wrote:


Hello Peter 

Glad to see you made it. 

Em 11/04/2016 12:27, ptoye escreveu: 
> I now think that I've managed to set up my Git repository correctly, so I'll 
> start editing. 
> 
> I've two questions: 
> 
> 1) There are about 8 files to modify. Should I submit all of them in one 
> commit, or do each separately? 

Your mileage may vary. 8 is a good number to not stress the patch 
reviewer, especially if the patches are related. 

> 
> 2) As well as the "allow to" issue, I've noticed that some files have 
> slightly ungrammatical English in that they leave out the articles ("A" and 
> "The") - easily done if your first language doesn't use them at all. I can 
> patch this at the same time. Again, is it worth while doing a separate 
> commit as logically the corrections are completely separate? 

On the same files as above, please include the grammatical corrections 
you find. 

Thank you 

> 
> 
> 
> 
> - 
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> View this message in context: 
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Use-of-allow-to-in-documentation-tp4167829p4180856.html
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> 

-- 
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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2016-04-11 Thread ptoye 
I now think that I've managed to set up my Git repository correctly, so I'll
start editing.

I've two questions:

1) There are about 8 files to modify. Should I submit all of them in one
commit, or do each separately?

2) As well as the "allow to" issue, I've noticed that some files have
slightly ungrammatical English in that they leave out the articles ("A" and
"The") - easily done if your first language doesn't use them at all. I can
patch this at the same time. Again, is it worth while doing a separate
commit as logically the corrections are completely separate?




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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2016-04-06 Thread ptoye 
Jan,

Sorry it's taken so long - I got held up as you might have seen.

I'm getting ready to make the first set of amendments now, but I'm still a bit 
confused about the workflow. Do I update the help file on the Git repository 
(using push) directly, or do I use gerrit? In the latter case I assume that I 
don't need Git except for my own purposes.

I've not yet tried to get onto gerrit, so I'll try to do that tomorrow (unless 
something of higher priority arrives). You have been warned

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Thursday, December 3, 2015, 8:12:47 PM, you wrote:


Hi Peter, 

Peter Toye píše v St 02. 12. 2015 v 16:13 +: 

> OK, when I have time I'll fix the wiki, That's the easy bit. 

Cool, thanks! :-) 

> For the help files, I already have a Git system on my PC (used with 
> Visual Studio Express), but don't know Gerrit at all. I'll read 
> through the documentation on how Git is used for the help files, but I 
> think I'll need help on Gerrit. It won't be for a few days. 

I see.  gerrit is (just) a review system; in other words, a system that 
allows everybody to have write access - you can commit and push your 
changes (to gerrit), where somebody with the appropriate rights will 
read your change, and either comment on that (so that you know what to 
fix), or will merge it to the main git. 

You need to do a bit of a setup: 

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/gerrit/setup

but then for your work, you'll push very similarly as with the normal 
git. 

>  I don't have an IRC client (or does WIndows 7 have one built-in - 
> I've not found it?) so that will be the first thing. What timezone are 
> you in - your name implies the Central European time zone - UTC+1, so 
> it shouldn't be too difficult to find a time that we're both awake. 

Better if you have an IRC client, but if not, you can join via web too: 

https://webchat.freenode.net/

Join the #libreoffice-dev channel, I'm sure you'll find many people who 
will be able to help you with the gerrit setup, if I'm not around or not 
responding from some reason (I'm "kendy" there). 

All the best, 
Kendy 


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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2015-12-07 Thread Peter Toye 
Tom,

Steve's idea is a good one, but who is the "you". In a help file it's fairly 
obvious - the person getting help. In an API definition it's not so obvious. Is 
it the programmer or the program user?

I take the issue you raise about translation. I'm a newbie in LO documentation 
(apart from using it, that is), and don't know the processes. For the help 
files it may not be too much of a problem as I think there are only 8 which use 
"allow to". But it's everywhere in the API documentation - that would be a 
major task. I won't take any action until I hear back from you.

There's a discussion here about a style guide - while grammatical issues may 
not be strictly "style" common mistranslations could well be pointed out there. 
Another issue is that some documents don't use articles ("a", "the") very well, 
Presumably a translation issue. Easy to do it your first language isn't the 
target language and in some cases even if it is.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Sunday, December 6, 2015, 9:06:06 PM, you wrote:

> Hi :)
> I really like Steve Edmonds' suggestion as a quick fix to quickly
> solve the immediate issue through tons of the documentation in one
> fast process.  Alex Thurgoodes' and Peter Toyes' ideas may be higher
> quality in many cases but i think they require a more in-depth reading
> and understanding of each occurrence.  Using Steve's suggestion as a
> "first parse" and then following up with the more intensive ideas
> might just be completely perfect.

> I do have 1 worry wrt the help files.  These files get translated and
> changes such as are being proposed here would mark all those
> translations as wrong.  For teams with a lot of people or where they
> have completed translating all the help-files, or done none at all,
> there is less of a problem.  However my worry for teams who have done
> a significant amount of work but not yet completed all the help files.
> For them it will mean a significant amount of work to re-check work
> they have already done in order to find where they really need to
> start from.

> So, i will email the international translators team to let them know
> what is being planned and to ask their advice.  Until we get feedback
> from them please can i ask that wide-scale correction of the
> help-files gets delayed?  Sorry i am really late in this thread!  So
> if it's already been done then don't worry and just let me know
> because it's my fault for not noticing this thread earlier.



> I think the help files need a lot of work, both in
> 1.  reviewing how the functionality really works and checking the
> accuracy of the instructions and
> 2.  proof-reading grammar and such like to make it a bit less geeky
> and more "man(/woman) on the street"

> As they are those help-files are much easier to translate and a LOT of
> good work is done by a tiny team.  However i think it would still be
> good if native-English speakers could re-phrase some of it or/and
> simplify it.


> Good luck with the Wiki!  It is really great to see this type of work
> getting under-way.  Regardless of my earlier misgivings about the
> help-files i think this is all something that would be great to see
> being done and it would help LibreOffice quite a lot to get this sort
> of thing under-way.

> Many thanks and regards from
> Tom :)




> On 6 December 2015 at 14:56, ptoye  wrote:
>> Hi Jan,
>>
>> I read through the pages on gerrit setup (two of them - they seem to be very 
>> similar to start with, and I fond that  bit confusing!), and started to get 
>> onto the gerrit system. Then I found that the commands to use gerrit were 
>> totally Unix-oriented so asked on IRC and was pointed to the LO development 
>> on Windows wiki page, which implies that I have to install cygwin. Is this 
>> necessary just for gerrit registration? I won't be building LO itself, just 
>> editing the help files.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Peter
>> mailto:l...@ptoye.com
>> www.ptoye.com
>>
>> -
>> Thursday, December 3, 2015, 8:12:47 PM, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> Peter Toye píše v St 02. 12. 2015 v 16:13 +:
>>
>>> OK, when I have time I'll fix the wiki, That's the easy bit.
>>
>> Cool, thanks! :-)
>>
>>> For the help files, I already have a Git system on my PC (used with
>>> Visual Studio Express), but don't know Gerrit at all. I'll read
>>> through the documentation on how Git is used for the help files, but I
>>> think I'll need help on Gerrit. It won't be for a few days.
>>
>> I see.  gerrit is (just) a review system; in other words, a system that
>> allows everybody to have write access - you can commit and push your
>> changes (to gerrit), where somebody with the appropriate rights will
>> read your change, and either comment on that (so that you know what to
>> fix), or will merge it to the main git.
>>
>> You need to do a bit of a setup:
>>
>>

[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2015-12-06 Thread ptoye 
Hi Jan,

I read through the pages on gerrit setup (two of them - they seem to be very 
similar to start with, and I fond that  bit confusing!), and started to get 
onto the gerrit system. Then I found that the commands to use gerrit were 
totally Unix-oriented so asked on IRC and was pointed to the LO development on 
Windows wiki page, which implies that I have to install cygwin. Is this 
necessary just for gerrit registration? I won't be building LO itself, just 
editing the help files.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Thursday, December 3, 2015, 8:12:47 PM, you wrote:


Hi Peter, 

Peter Toye píše v St 02. 12. 2015 v 16:13 +: 

> OK, when I have time I'll fix the wiki, That's the easy bit. 

Cool, thanks! :-) 

> For the help files, I already have a Git system on my PC (used with 
> Visual Studio Express), but don't know Gerrit at all. I'll read 
> through the documentation on how Git is used for the help files, but I 
> think I'll need help on Gerrit. It won't be for a few days. 

I see.  gerrit is (just) a review system; in other words, a system that 
allows everybody to have write access - you can commit and push your 
changes (to gerrit), where somebody with the appropriate rights will 
read your change, and either comment on that (so that you know what to 
fix), or will merge it to the main git. 

You need to do a bit of a setup: 

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/gerrit/setup

but then for your work, you'll push very similarly as with the normal 
git. 

>  I don't have an IRC client (or does WIndows 7 have one built-in - 
> I've not found it?) so that will be the first thing. What timezone are 
> you in - your name implies the Central European time zone - UTC+1, so 
> it shouldn't be too difficult to find a time that we're both awake. 

Better if you have an IRC client, but if not, you can join via web too: 

https://webchat.freenode.net/

Join the #libreoffice-dev channel, I'm sure you'll find many people who 
will be able to help you with the gerrit setup, if I'm not around or not 
responding from some reason (I'm "kendy" there). 

All the best, 
Kendy 


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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2015-12-02 Thread ptoye 
Hi Alex,

See my reply to steveedmonds: "selects a/the..." sounds better to my ears.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Tuesday, December 1, 2015, 10:03:47 AM, you wrote:


Le 30/11/2015 12:28, ptoye a écrit : 


Hi Peter, 

Yes, we there are no doubt more suitable English constructions for this 
such as : 

"enable" + "verbal noun" 

e.g. 
enables (the) selection of 
enables selecting a/the 

and no doubt many others. 

Alex 


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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2015-12-02 Thread ptoye 
Hi steveedmonds,

Why not leave it out altogether? "Set Document Roots: Selects the document as 
root file."

Saves typing!

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Tuesday, December 1, 2015, 12:51:30 AM, you wrote:


Hi. 
I come across this a lot in manuals I transcribe. I most frequently 
insert a "you". 

Set Document Root: allows to select the document as root file >> Set Document 
Root: allows you to select the document as root file 

Not sure of the context, the above is still ambiguous to me although it 
provides an example of insertion of "you" and because it is so frequent 
(in my work) a search and replace is a quick fix. 
Steve 

On 2015-12-01 00:28, ptoye wrote: 

> I've noticed that the phrase "allow to" or "allows to" appears a lot in the 
> API documentation, and also in some of the help files. AS a native UK 
> English speaker, I feel that I should point out that this is incorrect 
> grammar (I think it's also incorrect in US English). "Allow" must take an 
> object (except in the phrase "allow for"). There's a good discussion of this 
> in 
> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/85069/is-the-construction-it-allows-to-proper-english
> which implies that it's a translation problem (maybe a German speaker here 
> would like to comment). 
> 
> For example "If the current entry in the Settings listbox allows to edit a 
> value, you can click the Edit button." needs editing to something like "If 
> the current entry in the Settings listbox is set to allow editing of a 
> value,  you can click the Edit button." 
> 
> There is also the question of whether "allows" is the correct word in many 
> cases. " allows to " is, strictly speaking, 
> ambiguous. Does it mean that the parameter sets/clears a switch which makes 
> the change of possible (the strict meaning of "allows"), or that the 
> parameter changes the the value directly, in which case "allows to change" 
> can be replaced by "changes"? In many cases, I suspect that the latter is 
> intended. 
> 
> There's an example below taken from 
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/HelpContent#Make_Images_Appear which 
> shows the problem:  three of these paras use "allows to", three don't, but I 
> think they all have the same meaning! 
> 
>  Create help file: creates a new .xhp file based on the template. If the 
> template is not found, the file can't be created and an error message is 
> displayed. 
>  About: displays the version number of the extension 
>  Set Document Root: allows to select the document as root file 
>  Edit meta data: allows to give a title to the help file and to leave a 
> comment. The Indexing button allows to include or ignore the file when 
> running a search 
>  Validate this help file: allows to run some checks on the xml structure 
> of the file 
>  Toggle l10n: sets the localize attribute on false: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - 
> Peter 
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Use-of-allow-to-in-documentation-tp4167829.html
> Sent from the Documentation mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
> 


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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "allow to" in documentation

2015-12-01 Thread Alexander Thurgood 
Le 30/11/2015 12:28, ptoye a écrit :


Hi Peter,

Yes, we there are no doubt more suitable English constructions for this
such as :

"enable" + "verbal noun"

e.g.
enables (the) selection of
enables selecting a/the

and no doubt many others.

Alex


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