Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Hi Jean, On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: More questions. Still trying to grasp what Alfresco versioning can and cannot do. Sorry if I'm thick, but I doubt I'm the only person reading this thread that is confused or unclear on the topic. It also took me a while to get my head around versioning when I first encountered CVS and SVN. I guess one could think about it like this: Imagine you've got a nice, friendly wooden table as a desktop. On it, you've got an empty in-tray. Now imagine you've got a robot who deals with serving you documents from the in-box, and with putting them back in again after you've written something on them. You take a clean sheet of paper and write a note on it. At the top of the document, you give it the title, Notes. You're done with it, and tell the robot to put it in the in-box. The robot does so, and puts a post-it on the sheet of paper with a note that this is version 1 of the document called Notes. 10 minutes later, you want to add another note to the sheet of paper. You tell the robot. The robot duplicates the document and puts the duplicate copy on your desktop. You write another note, and you're done. You tell the robot to store the document back in the in-box. Obligingly, the robot takes the duplicated document with your additional note, and stacks it back in the in-box on top of the first sheet, putting a post-it on the new copy saying that this is version 2 of the document called Notes. Later, you want to edit that note. You tell the robot to give you your Notes document. The robot duplicates version 2 of the Notes document (without putting any post-it on it) and puts it on your desktop. You scribble out a couple of words and, over the top, you add a couple of better words. You're done, and you tell the robot. The robot takes the document, adds a post-it saying Version 3, and puts it on the stack, which is now 3 sheets high. A few minutes later, you didn't like the change you made. Because the robot is keeping versions, you could ask it for the last version it filed away (Version 3 on the post-it), or for the version before that (Version 2 on the post-it). In the end, you ask for Version 2. The robot duplicates the document with the post-it marked Version 2, and puts it on your desktop (without a post-it). You make some changes and add a new note. You then tell the robot to file the document away, and it does so: it adds a post-it Version 4 to the document, and adds it to the top of the stack. You now have an in-box with a stack of 4 copies of the sheet of paper, with each copy being a version of the document after retrieving it, doing some work on it, and then re-filing it in the in-box. That's a very simplistic way of looking at the basic process. In the case of Alfresco, you can see the version number (i.e. the version from the version control system's viewpoint) in the little black label to the right of the document name in the repository browser. If you click on the document title or document thumbnail, you go to that document's preview and details page. On that page, in the right-hand column, you can see a list of the various versions of the document, the name of the person that uploaded that version, and any notes they left when they uploaded it. When uploading versions of a document, it would be important for each submitter to add at least brief notes about the current considered status of the document and what work the person has done. That will help other human beings keep track of the collaboration. Also, updating the meta data in a document regularly after doing work on it is another way of providing information about its current status. Alfresco will happily display that meta data on http://media.libreoffice.org (as well as in the document's preview and details page). There are a couple of introductions to version control systems here: - http://betterexplained.com/articles/a-visual-guide-to-version-control/ - http://guides.beanstalkapp.com/version-control/intro-to-version-control.html I'll reply to your other questions in a separate post. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Hi Jean, Dan, On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 12:42 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: From what I understand about Alfresco, the information could be better presented there in the Discussion section of a site. There the areas of discussion can be divided into separate topics. We can comment on one or more topics that others will see in context. At least this is how I think a Discussion section is suppose to work: brainstorming while collaborating with others. Although that would be a good use of Alfresco's Discussion feature, it would effectively cut me out of any discussion when I am working on iPhone or iPad, without access to a computer. Unless, hmmm I must test the iPhone/iPad app for Alfresco to see if it would do the job. (Android version coming soon.) I think that, at this stage, we could maybe store Dan's document in the Docs section of the TDF wiki, perhaps on a new Alfresco brainstorming page. I think tha it's useful to have a summary of the discussions in this thread, but that Alfresco is not the best place to store it at this stage, since some people are not at ease with it (a LibreOffice Alfresco contributor's guide will be essential if Alfresco is adopted as the team's working tool). The other problem with holding a discussion on Alfresco (as with any forum or other web-based program) is that people would need to go to the site to read and contribute, instead of having the discussion come to them. So there are pros and cons to doing it that way. Unless, hmmm... can individual Alfresco users choose to have notifications emailed to them when something new is posted on a topic? Alfresco can easily be configured to send out email notifications when events take place. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Hi Dan, On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Dan elderdanle...@gmail.com wrote: I have created a ODT file with the comments from this topic in our mailing list. It is available at: http://alfresco.libreoffice.org/share/page/site/alfrescoBrainstorming/document-details?nodeRef=workspace://SpacesStore/31a00fb0-a2d5-4ee3-ac02-102cbb4956dd Unfortunately, when you click on this link, this takes you to the login page. So, you must first be a member of Alfresco... I placed all of the comments following the paragraphs to which they apply. I also included the name of the person making the comments. Perhaps this will make this thread more understandable. Thanks for that, I think it's really useful to have this. But, as I commented in another post, I reckon the TDF wiki might be a better place to store it at this stage, possibly on a newly-created Alfresco brainstorming page. Would that be something that you or, maybe, Tom might do? If not, I might try to find time for it in the next week or 10 days, or when we reach an appropriate point in the to-and-fro of questions and answers... -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Hi Dan, On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Dan elderdanle...@gmail.com wrote: I have created a ODT file with the comments from this topic in our mailing list. It is available at: http://alfresco.libreoffice.org/share/page/site/alfrescoBrainstorming/document-details?nodeRef=workspace://SpacesStore/31a00fb0-a2d5-4ee3-ac02-102cbb4956dd Unfortunately, when you click on this link, this takes you to the login page. So, you must first be a member of Alfresco... If you take the link to the document from http://media.libreoffice.org then it would be publicly-downloadable without requiring a login. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Hi Cedric, On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Cedric Bosdonnat cedric.bosdonnat@free.fr wrote: We can setup some automatic rules to rename files in Alfresco... so both are possible, you all only need to agree on something ;) Since you're an Alfresco consultant, please could you give us some of your expertise and advice in respect of some of Jean's and the team's other questions? Your POV would be valuable. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Hi :) Just speculation but ... I'm not convinced the ODFAuthors system is simpler. It's just that more people are familiar with it and have been using it for longer. However, it seems to be difficult to attract and retain new people and that may be an indication of complexities that longer-term users don't notice any more. Ok, so i am not convinced the ODFAuthors system is more complex either as i have no evidence nor experience either way. Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 23/8/12, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow To: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz Cc: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 23 August, 2012, 21:58 On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 11:08 PM, David Nelson li...@traduction.biz wrote: The only question is this: does one work more effectively with a manual system that is intrinsically less efficient from a geeky viewpoint but that is easier for non-geeks to understand and lets them get work done today rather than in 2 months time after RTFM? IMO, a system that is easy for newbies and non-geeks to understand and get work done is MUCH to be preferred. That said, I think we could have a compromise method of working that includes both the geeky advantages of metadata and the non-geeky advantages of different filenames for different LO versions. --Jean -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
On 23/08/2012, at 21:45, David Nelson li...@traduction.biz wrote: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: We need to create chapter and book files for new each version of LO with new filenames, not just in the metadata. This because we keep files for more than one version of LO on the wiki, and those files must have different names. Not so, in fact: the idea would be not to have different files but to use the separate links that Alfresco would provide, that link to different versions of the same file. -- David Nelson You mean, not store the files on the wiki? But only on Alfresco, with links from the wiki? How are people who download a file going to know which version of LO it's for, without opening the file? Or previewing it in some way? I hate that when other programs provide files I cannot readily identify. I can think of other scenarios where not having different filenames corresponding to LO versions would cause confusion. I cannot think of any advantages. --Jean -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
On 23/08/2012, at 21:53, David Nelson li...@traduction.biz wrote: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: Users have specifically requested dates on the wiki page, so they can easily see whether there is a new version (update) of a chapter or book that they might already have a copy of. They won't go trawling through the blog (if they are even aware of the blog) to find out whether something new has been posted. If you were to use http://media.libreoffice.org as the download point for documentation, then all the dates and other information could be automatically extracted from the file's meta data, which would do away with the need for manual updating of that information. However, that would not work with http://libreoffice.org or the Docs section of http://wiki.documentfoundation.org, as - AFAIK - they do not incorporate the ability to extract and display document meta data. -- David Nelson I'll take a closer look at media.LO.org. Two questions: 1) Can it be set to show only published files to people who are not logged in? 2) how would that work for your preferred method not changing filenames for different LO versions? Seems to me this is an argument for different filenames. Jean -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
On 23/08/2012, at 22:41, David Nelson li...@traduction.biz wrote: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: That said, I appreciate that Alfresco is more convenient to use with one unchanging file name for each version of LO. I can manually change filenames upon download if that makes the whole process easier for everyone. It's not really a question of keeping one unchanging file name to suit working with Alfresco. The advantage is that one would take advantage of Alfresco's file versioning to: a) avoid having to update download links on http://libreoffice.org and the wiki; b) avoid the need to keep different files containing different versions of the same document. The versioning system stores all the different historical versions of that document, and you can get a download link to each different past version of a file if you want to offer-up documentation for different versions of LibreOffice. You can easily live with one unchanging file name if you store the changeable information (version of LibreOffice covered, etc.) in the doc's meta data rather than incorporating it in the filename. I find this extremely convenient and simple. While I can go back to Alfresco and download an older version of a file if I want it (or look in the metadata to see when and by whom it was changed), in most cases that is a nuisance compared to having it on my own computer with the info in the filename. I can understand that. It's a pity that there are no extensions to file managers like Windows Explorer and Nautilus, etc., that allow reading of ODF file meta data without having to load a program to do so. There are various small, quick-loading utilities for reading MS Office file meta data without much hassle, but I'm not aware of any for LibreOffice and its ODF files. I guess you'd need to make a choice here. Is using file meta data for storing version-related information more convenient that using special file naming that is quicker to read but entails a lot of manual renaming and link updating? -- David Nelson I don't have a major problem with using Alfresco's versioning system for tracking a file being worked on for any one LO version. As you say, there are definite advantages to doing it that way. I do have a major problem with not changing the filename for a different version of LO, as you have mentioned in other notes. I do not see any advantages to that. Of course, these are separate issues. Jean P.S. please use reply to all so the list gets your notes as well. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
On Thu, 2012-08-23 at 22:55 +1000, Jean Weber wrote: I do have a major problem with not changing the filename for a different version of LO, as you have mentioned in other notes. I do not see any advantages to that. Of course, these are separate issues. We can setup some automatic rules to rename files in Alfresco... so both are possible, you all only need to agree on something ;) -- Cedric -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: I'll take a closer look at media.LO.org. Two questions: 1) Can it be set to show only published files to people who are not logged in? 2) how would that work for your preferred method not changing filenames for different LO versions? Seems to me this is an argument for different filenames. 1) Yes. Although some would argue that, in the name of project openness, all content stored on Alfresco should be visible. But the answer to your question is that it's easy to use permissions only to showcase stuff you consider to be published and world-ready. 2) I don't quite understand the question here. But understanding versioning systems was confusing at first, for me. But, once one takes the concepts on-board and uses them in association with file meta data, it falls into place. The only question is this: does one work more effectively with a manual system that is intrinsically less efficient from a geeky viewpoint but that is easier for non-geeks to understand and lets them get work done today rather than in 2 months time after RTFM? Again, it's a choice to be made. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: That said, I appreciate that Alfresco is more convenient to use with one unchanging file name for each version of LO. I can manually change filenames upon download if that makes the whole process easier for everyone. It's not really a question of keeping one unchanging file name to suit working with Alfresco. The advantage is that one would take advantage of Alfresco's file versioning to: a) avoid having to update download links on http://libreoffice.org and the wiki; b) avoid the need to keep different files containing different versions of the same document. The versioning system stores all the different historical versions of that document, and you can get a download link to each different past version of a file if you want to offer-up documentation for different versions of LibreOffice. You can easily live with one unchanging file name if you store the changeable information (version of LibreOffice covered, etc.) in the doc's meta data rather than incorporating it in the filename. I find this extremely convenient and simple. While I can go back to Alfresco and download an older version of a file if I want it (or look in the metadata to see when and by whom it was changed), in most cases that is a nuisance compared to having it on my own computer with the info in the filename. I can understand that. It's a pity that there are no extensions to file managers like Windows Explorer and Nautilus, etc., that allow reading of ODF file meta data without having to load a program to do so. There are various small, quick-loading utilities for reading MS Office file meta data without much hassle, but I'm not aware of any for LibreOffice and its ODF files. I guess you'd need to make a choice here. Is using file meta data for storing version-related information more convenient that using special file naming that is quicker to read but entails a lot of manual renaming and link updating? -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: Users have specifically requested dates on the wiki page, so they can easily see whether there is a new version (update) of a chapter or book that they might already have a copy of. They won't go trawling through the blog (if they are even aware of the blog) to find out whether something new has been posted. If you were to use http://media.libreoffice.org as the download point for documentation, then all the dates and other information could be automatically extracted from the file's meta data, which would do away with the need for manual updating of that information. However, that would not work with http://libreoffice.org or the Docs section of http://wiki.documentfoundation.org, as - AFAIK - they do not incorporate the ability to extract and display document meta data. -- David Nelson -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Hi :) I think Alfresco allows you to have 1. folders where stuff is kept private so that you need to login to see the contents. This is where almost all the work would be done (obviously) 2. other folders which can be accessed by the general public Presumably if there was 1 folder for guides for 3.3.x and another for 3.4.x then files in each of those could have the same name as each other and only the link's pathname would be different. So. most people would only be aware of looking at The Writer Guide but techie people and those in the know might notice the extra info in the url or where-ever. Regards from Tom :) From: Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com To: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz Cc: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thursday, 23 August 2012, 13:27 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow On 23/08/2012, at 21:45, David Nelson li...@traduction.biz wrote: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: We need to create chapter and book files for new each version of LO with new filenames, not just in the metadata. This because we keep files for more than one version of LO on the wiki, and those files must have different names. Not so, in fact: the idea would be not to have different files but to use the separate links that Alfresco would provide, that link to different versions of the same file. -- David Nelson You mean, not store the files on the wiki? But only on Alfresco, with links from the wiki? How are people who download a file going to know which version of LO it's for, without opening the file? Or previewing it in some way? I hate that when other programs provide files I cannot readily identify. I can think of other scenarios where not having different filenames corresponding to LO versions would cause confusion. I cannot think of any advantages. --Jean -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Hi :) That might save us a fair bit of awkwardness and potential inaccuracies. At the moment the Publications wiki-page could hold maybe 1 more branch (the 3.6.x) and still be fairly easy to read on non-widescreen monitors (the old standard aspect ratio 4:3). It's only really the latest guides that need to have precise dates. Older guides just need a rough figure, even just the year is precise enough for the older guides. However people have already been talking about tidying the page up or moving to a completely different way of presenting the information. I think Alfresco would make it more presentable. Regards from Tom :) From: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thursday, 23 August 2012, 14:11 Subject: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: Users have specifically requested dates on the wiki page, so they can easily see whether there is a new version (update) of a chapter or book that they might already have a copy of. They won't go trawling through the blog (if they are even aware of the blog) to find out whether something new has been posted. If you were to use http://media.libreoffice.org as the download point for documentation, then all the dates and other information could be automatically extracted from the file's meta data, which would do away with the need for manual updating of that information. However, that would not work with http://libreoffice.org or the Docs section of http://wiki.documentfoundation.org, as - AFAIK - they do not incorporate the ability to extract and display document meta data. -- David Nelson -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Total snip After reading some of threads that this has created, I must say that I am confused. It is very difficult for me to follow any of the trends of thoughts. Some of the terminology is unknown to me as well. From what I understand about Alfresco, the information could be better presented there in the Discussion section of a site. There the areas of discussion can be divided into separate topics. We can comment on one or more topics that others will see in context. At least this is how I think a Discussion section is suppose to work: brainstorming while collaborating with others. My problem with the emails in these threads is that they do not include all of the text of the previous email to which the person is responding. I'm going to try to take these threads apart and see if I can put them into some order so they make some sense. I can see advantages to using Alfresco if we are willing to learn how to use it, one small step at a time in the beginning. Later we can take bigger steps. --Dan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Dan wrote: Total snip After reading some of threads that this has created, I must say that I am confused. It is very difficult for me to follow any of the trends of thoughts. Some of the terminology is unknown to me as well. From what I understand about Alfresco, the information could be better presented there in the Discussion section of a site. There the areas of discussion can be divided into separate topics. We can comment on one or more topics that others will see in context. At least this is how I think a Discussion section is suppose to work: brainstorming while collaborating with others. My problem with the emails in these threads is that they do not include all of the text of the previous email to which the person is responding. I'm going to try to take these threads apart and see if I can put them into some order so they make some sense. I can see advantages to using Alfresco if we are willing to learn how to use it, one small step at a time in the beginning. Later we can take bigger steps. --Dan I have created a ODT file with the comments from this topic in our mailing list. It is available at: http://alfresco.libreoffice.org/share/page/site/alfrescoBrainstorming/document-details?nodeRef=workspace://SpacesStore/31a00fb0-a2d5-4ee3-ac02-102cbb4956dd Unfortunately, when you click on this link, this takes you to the login page. So, you must first be a member of Alfresco... I placed all of the comments following the paragraphs to which they apply. I also included the name of the person making the comments. Perhaps this will make this thread more understandable. --Dan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 11:08 PM, David Nelson li...@traduction.biz wrote: The only question is this: does one work more effectively with a manual system that is intrinsically less efficient from a geeky viewpoint but that is easier for non-geeks to understand and lets them get work done today rather than in 2 months time after RTFM? IMO, a system that is easy for newbies and non-geeks to understand and get work done is MUCH to be preferred. That said, I think we could have a compromise method of working that includes both the geeky advantages of metadata and the non-geeky advantages of different filenames for different LO versions. --Jean -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
More questions. Still trying to grasp what Alfresco versioning can and cannot do. Sorry if I'm thick, but I doubt I'm the only person reading this thread that is confused or unclear on the topic. On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:59 PM, David Nelson li...@traduction.biz wrote: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Jean Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: You mean, not store the files on the wiki? But only on Alfresco, with links from the wiki? Well, you can store the files on Alfresco, get public links to them (not requiring a log-in) from http://media.libreoffice.org, and post the links on http://libreofficeorg and the wiki (although on those 2 sites you can't display the meta data). Or you can have http://media.libreoffice.org:8081 (the port number is temporary, until its reconfigured to show on port 80) as your main download point instead, showing all the document meta data and, feasibly, a browsable preview of the document. So I can get (horribly long and user-unfriendly) download links to different versions of a document and post those links on wiki or website or wherever. That still doesn't solve the problem of how people know, ONCE THE FILE IS DOWNLOADED TO THEIR COMPUTER, what version of LO it's for. I'm sure I'm not the only person who downloads user guides and then (an hour or a day or a month later) can't easily tell what software version they were were for. What about people who want to go to, say, media.lo.org, browse around, and find individual chapters or books for a specific version of LO? (In other words, not following specific download links.) At the moment it's clear (by the directory structure: different folders for different LO versions) and the filenames. I don't understand how they will be able to tell this information if there is only one Published folder for each book, and one filename for each chapter. My questions are not just about how we, the Docs team, can work efficiently. Equally, or even more importantly, we need to consider how our consumers, the users, can easily find, identify, download, store and retrieve the docs they need. Another reason why different filenames for different LO versions are useful: when a user reports an error, they need to tell us which file it's in (or, in your system, which version of that file), because we need to know if it's an obsolete version or only applies to a specific version, etc. Also, I don't understand how, if all the versions of a file (both drafts and published) are stored under one filename, we can tell which are the published versions vs the drafts. --Jean -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 1:59 AM, Dan elderdanle...@gmail.com wrote: Total snip After reading some of threads that this has created, I must say that I am confused. It is very difficult for me to follow any of the trends of thoughts. Some of the terminology is unknown to me as well. From what I understand about Alfresco, the information could be better presented there in the Discussion section of a site. There the areas of discussion can be divided into separate topics. We can comment on one or more topics that others will see in context. At least this is how I think a Discussion section is suppose to work: brainstorming while collaborating with others. Although that would be a good use of Alfresco's Discussion feature, it would effectively cut me out of any discussion when I am working on iPhone or iPad, without access to a computer. Unless, hmmm I must test the iPhone/iPad app for Alfresco to see if it would do the job. (Android version coming soon.) The other problem with holding a discussion on Alfresco (as with any forum or other web-based program) is that people would need to go to the site to read and contribute, instead of having the discussion come to them. So there are pros and cons to doing it that way. Unless, hmmm... can individual Alfresco users choose to have notifications emailed to them when something new is posted on a topic? I see I need to do more research on what Alfresco (and the mobile front-end) can do. In my non-existent spare time! --Jean -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
Much-delayed detailed responses to some of David's workflow suggestions are interleaved below in his note. I may respond to others in a separate note. --Jean On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 3:42 AM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz wrote: OK, the workflow we originally set-up on Alfresco... The doc start in the Drafts folder. A considered-ready draft gets approved and goes forward to the Review folder. A reviewer proofreads it, and either it gets approved and gets moved forward to the Publish folder, or it gets rejected and goes back to Drafts. IMO it is better for reviewer and editors to do their work (using LO's change tracking tools) and then let the author (or someone else) review those edits and comments and accept/reject them individually before approving the doc and moving it to the Publish folder. We typically do that all within the Feedback folder, though it could be done by returning to Drafts. I mention this because in this case, as with some other suggestions you've made, the workflow concepts of what we are doing (write, review, edit, publish) are getting mixed up with how to handle the workflow within the tool (Alfresco). The act of approval or rejection (it wasn't always actually used) was to click on one of two menu options in the right-hand menu that appears when your mouse pointer hovers over the document. The result was that Alfresco would move the document to one folder or the other. That's fine with me, and in fact I quite like that process. When the doc actually lands in the Publish folder, the bells sound and the doc gets published. This is a manual process... [details snipped] Questions: Is there a real need for more than Draft/Review/Publish folders? What is the real value of the Feedback folder? Could we usefully just eliminate it and simplify things? The Feedback folder is used as a place for members of the Docs team to submit docs they have reviewed or edited as part of our normal process. Feedback probably isn't the best name for it; Review is probably better. The purpose is the same. Question: The workflow described on the wiki involves 4 roles - Writer, Reviewer, Editor, Publisher. Could we usefully simplify that to Writer and Reviewer? Editor and Publisher could potentially be eliminated, because of my file-naming suggestion below. At ODFAuthors, in the English team we have two roles within the software itself: Author and Manager. Authors have the authority to write, review, edit, publish. Within the conceptual *workflow* (that is, what people do, separate from what the software does), however, we distinguish between writing, reviewing, editing, and publishing roles. [Aside: some language groups may do this differently.] Suggestion: On Alfresco, you could usefully revise the file-naming conventions. Keep the conventions as regards the title of the manual. But remove the version info from the filename. Instead, decide what fields you want to have in the meta data of each file, and store the version info in there only. The advantages I'd see are discussed below. [...] Possible different solution === Have 2 folders for each manual: Work-in-progress and Published. All work gets done on the file in Work-in-progress and there is only ever one file for each chapter of a manual in the Work-in-progress folder. Alfresco's versioning system updates the version number of the file each time someone uploads some work done (via Upload new version under More...). One can easily roll back to a previous version number if necessary, or download an old version number if desired. Each worker enters a comment in the Alfresco comment box when uploading, stating the work done (and/or in a comment field in the document meta data). This is over-simplified and will probably cause workers to lose track of what they should be doing. See comments elsewhere in this note. Although, a variation using sub-folders under Word-in-progress for drafts, reviewed, and edited could work. The same file is used even when work starts on updating a chapter to take account of a new version of LibreOffice. In this case, the LibreOffice version number is updated by a team member in the file's meta data. You don't have to worry about incrementing any file version number in the meta data, because Alfresco is handling the version numbering. We need to create chapter and book files for new each version of LO with new filenames, not just in the metadata. This because we keep files for more than one version of LO on the wiki, and those files must have different names. When the file is finally publication-ready, one uploads it (Upload new version in More...) as a new version of a file of the same name already existing in the Published folder. Only for updates (corrections) to existing published chapters. That existing file is already linked-to on the wiki and on libreoffice.org (the link comes from the public browser on
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: brainstorming about the LibreOffice docs team workflow
I'm busy for the next few hours, but I'll reply as soon as I get through with this job. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
