Re: [Dorset] Micro:Bit
** PeterMerchant via dorset [2019-03-14 12:13]: > On 13/03/2019 17:39, Paul Tansom wrote: > > ** Ralph Corderoy [2019-03-10 14:46]: > > > Hi Terry, > > > > > > > I commented that it was a shame that the Government / BBC hadn't > > > > chosen the Raspberry Pi, since it already had a strong community. > > > I think two things counted against the Pi back then. It's price, though > > > I haven't checked on what Pi models were available when the decisions > > > would have been being made, i.e. quite a bit before the micro:bit's > > > release. And the opaqueness of its innards given it's a proprietary GPU > > > that happens to be able to load code for an ARM on the side to run. > > > Broadcom were never keen on opening the private bits up when I used to > > > follow the topic. > > > > > > In comparison, the micro:bit is a lot more standard design for a `dev' > > > board, with two ARMs, a Cortex M0 where your code runs, and a Cortex M0+ > > > that provides the USB access to program the M0. Ditching the video > > > output leaves a simpler system to build from scratch. > > > > > > (I have a micro:bit.) > > ** end quote [Ralph Corderoy] > > > > They are in fact very different beasts. I was initially very enthusiastic > > about > > the Raspberry Pi, and still am to some extent, but less so in a school > > environment. To be fair it depends on the infrastructure. A lab full of them > > with various bits of physical computing to go with them is great, but I've > > tended to see teachers wondering what to do with them, lacking the space, > > keyboards, mice and screens to use without detaching the ones on the > > existing > > IT suite and then looking to use them in ways that, in the school > > environment, > > you could just as easily do on the desktop with the right software. To my > > mind > > there are two key advantages to the Pi. Cheap machine to be used at home > > instead of the main computer to experiment with (very much the home > > computer of > > my youth - bar the games I guess), or properly setup for physical computing > > (again, to some extent BBC Micro style). They need a notable investment in > > time > > and resources for proper use in schools. > > > > By contrast I was pretty sceptical about the Micro:bit when it was > > launched. I > > couldn't quite see how it would be used. I've changed my mind, largely > > based on > > the fact that they are plug and play into a desktop computer (well not with > > the > > latest firmware on Windows 7, but that's another story), and you can code on > > the desktop and download onto a physical device in a very hands on way. It > > is > > to some extent more like an Arduino, where the Raspberry Pi is a stand alone > > computer (although that can be flexible in some cases). One pain point is > > power, it is a shame they backed off the original plan here, the AAA battery > > pack is a pain and a coin cell pack adds to the cost. > > > > A couple of simple examples from my after school club in a primary school: > > > > I intended to use a Raspberry Pi to control a robotic arm, but in the end it > > was easier to use my netbook than get a screen, keyboard and mouse setup. > > > > I have used a Pi with a Unicorn Hat (8x8 grid of LEDs) to play with old > > school > > user defined graphics drawn on a piece of paper in frames, converted to a > > number (good old binary) and entered into a Python program. That needed > > time to > > disconnect the monitor and then use my wireless keyboard/touchpad so I had > > one > > for the whole class. I had some great animations :-) > > > > Micro:bit wise, I've used them for a Rock, Paper, Scissors game (popular as > > I > > walked across the playground, as I forgot I had it on a lanyard round my > > neck!). It can play against another Micro:bit, a similar program on Scratch, > > live opponent or etc. - although not necessarily with direct communication! > > > > I'm playing with the 'radio' for messaging between Micro:bits at the moment, > > but it hasn't been field tested in class. > > > > Referencing the issues touched on above, the latest firmware introduces > > WebUSB > > to allow the code to download from the browser (presumably whichever > > language > > you choose) straight to the Micro:bit, but this lacks support in Windows 7. > > This causes plug and play issues, particularly when it reinstalls the > > driver if > > you don't use exactly the same unit. > > > > There may be some interesting possibilities with the Pi Zero that can > > connect > > using an OTG cable allowing SSH access (or other network protocol) giving > > the > > potential for similar interaction to the Micro:bit (although more complex) > > and > > removing the need for extra peripherals. You could then control the various > > Hats via Python from a desktop. There was also a thing called the Rtk.GPIO > > which connected to a PC via USB to give it Raspberry Pi compatible GPIO > > ports. > > Not sure where / whether they are st
Re: [Dorset] Micro:Bit
On 13/03/2019 17:39, Paul Tansom wrote: ** Ralph Corderoy [2019-03-10 14:46]: Hi Terry, I commented that it was a shame that the Government / BBC hadn't chosen the Raspberry Pi, since it already had a strong community. I think two things counted against the Pi back then. It's price, though I haven't checked on what Pi models were available when the decisions would have been being made, i.e. quite a bit before the micro:bit's release. And the opaqueness of its innards given it's a proprietary GPU that happens to be able to load code for an ARM on the side to run. Broadcom were never keen on opening the private bits up when I used to follow the topic. In comparison, the micro:bit is a lot more standard design for a `dev' board, with two ARMs, a Cortex M0 where your code runs, and a Cortex M0+ that provides the USB access to program the M0. Ditching the video output leaves a simpler system to build from scratch. (I have a micro:bit.) ** end quote [Ralph Corderoy] They are in fact very different beasts. I was initially very enthusiastic about the Raspberry Pi, and still am to some extent, but less so in a school environment. To be fair it depends on the infrastructure. A lab full of them with various bits of physical computing to go with them is great, but I've tended to see teachers wondering what to do with them, lacking the space, keyboards, mice and screens to use without detaching the ones on the existing IT suite and then looking to use them in ways that, in the school environment, you could just as easily do on the desktop with the right software. To my mind there are two key advantages to the Pi. Cheap machine to be used at home instead of the main computer to experiment with (very much the home computer of my youth - bar the games I guess), or properly setup for physical computing (again, to some extent BBC Micro style). They need a notable investment in time and resources for proper use in schools. By contrast I was pretty sceptical about the Micro:bit when it was launched. I couldn't quite see how it would be used. I've changed my mind, largely based on the fact that they are plug and play into a desktop computer (well not with the latest firmware on Windows 7, but that's another story), and you can code on the desktop and download onto a physical device in a very hands on way. It is to some extent more like an Arduino, where the Raspberry Pi is a stand alone computer (although that can be flexible in some cases). One pain point is power, it is a shame they backed off the original plan here, the AAA battery pack is a pain and a coin cell pack adds to the cost. A couple of simple examples from my after school club in a primary school: I intended to use a Raspberry Pi to control a robotic arm, but in the end it was easier to use my netbook than get a screen, keyboard and mouse setup. I have used a Pi with a Unicorn Hat (8x8 grid of LEDs) to play with old school user defined graphics drawn on a piece of paper in frames, converted to a number (good old binary) and entered into a Python program. That needed time to disconnect the monitor and then use my wireless keyboard/touchpad so I had one for the whole class. I had some great animations :-) Micro:bit wise, I've used them for a Rock, Paper, Scissors game (popular as I walked across the playground, as I forgot I had it on a lanyard round my neck!). It can play against another Micro:bit, a similar program on Scratch, live opponent or etc. - although not necessarily with direct communication! I'm playing with the 'radio' for messaging between Micro:bits at the moment, but it hasn't been field tested in class. Referencing the issues touched on above, the latest firmware introduces WebUSB to allow the code to download from the browser (presumably whichever language you choose) straight to the Micro:bit, but this lacks support in Windows 7. This causes plug and play issues, particularly when it reinstalls the driver if you don't use exactly the same unit. There may be some interesting possibilities with the Pi Zero that can connect using an OTG cable allowing SSH access (or other network protocol) giving the potential for similar interaction to the Micro:bit (although more complex) and removing the need for extra peripherals. You could then control the various Hats via Python from a desktop. There was also a thing called the Rtk.GPIO which connected to a PC via USB to give it Raspberry Pi compatible GPIO ports. Not sure where / whether they are still available, and they didn't work with all Hats. That was more than I planned to type. Just checked and I appear to have 13 Raspberry Pis of various sorts (one running Nextcloud for the past couple of years) and 11 Micro:bits. I know where all the Micro:bits are - which reminds me I need to downgrade the firmware for tomorrow. Very interesting Paul, especially looking at your company blog. You state that you are using it at a primary school, but my local children (not mine, but those I
Re: [Dorset] Micro:Bit
** Ralph Corderoy [2019-03-10 14:46]: > Hi Terry, > > > I commented that it was a shame that the Government / BBC hadn't > > chosen the Raspberry Pi, since it already had a strong community. > > I think two things counted against the Pi back then. It's price, though > I haven't checked on what Pi models were available when the decisions > would have been being made, i.e. quite a bit before the micro:bit's > release. And the opaqueness of its innards given it's a proprietary GPU > that happens to be able to load code for an ARM on the side to run. > Broadcom were never keen on opening the private bits up when I used to > follow the topic. > > In comparison, the micro:bit is a lot more standard design for a `dev' > board, with two ARMs, a Cortex M0 where your code runs, and a Cortex M0+ > that provides the USB access to program the M0. Ditching the video > output leaves a simpler system to build from scratch. > > (I have a micro:bit.) ** end quote [Ralph Corderoy] They are in fact very different beasts. I was initially very enthusiastic about the Raspberry Pi, and still am to some extent, but less so in a school environment. To be fair it depends on the infrastructure. A lab full of them with various bits of physical computing to go with them is great, but I've tended to see teachers wondering what to do with them, lacking the space, keyboards, mice and screens to use without detaching the ones on the existing IT suite and then looking to use them in ways that, in the school environment, you could just as easily do on the desktop with the right software. To my mind there are two key advantages to the Pi. Cheap machine to be used at home instead of the main computer to experiment with (very much the home computer of my youth - bar the games I guess), or properly setup for physical computing (again, to some extent BBC Micro style). They need a notable investment in time and resources for proper use in schools. By contrast I was pretty sceptical about the Micro:bit when it was launched. I couldn't quite see how it would be used. I've changed my mind, largely based on the fact that they are plug and play into a desktop computer (well not with the latest firmware on Windows 7, but that's another story), and you can code on the desktop and download onto a physical device in a very hands on way. It is to some extent more like an Arduino, where the Raspberry Pi is a stand alone computer (although that can be flexible in some cases). One pain point is power, it is a shame they backed off the original plan here, the AAA battery pack is a pain and a coin cell pack adds to the cost. A couple of simple examples from my after school club in a primary school: I intended to use a Raspberry Pi to control a robotic arm, but in the end it was easier to use my netbook than get a screen, keyboard and mouse setup. I have used a Pi with a Unicorn Hat (8x8 grid of LEDs) to play with old school user defined graphics drawn on a piece of paper in frames, converted to a number (good old binary) and entered into a Python program. That needed time to disconnect the monitor and then use my wireless keyboard/touchpad so I had one for the whole class. I had some great animations :-) Micro:bit wise, I've used them for a Rock, Paper, Scissors game (popular as I walked across the playground, as I forgot I had it on a lanyard round my neck!). It can play against another Micro:bit, a similar program on Scratch, live opponent or etc. - although not necessarily with direct communication! I'm playing with the 'radio' for messaging between Micro:bits at the moment, but it hasn't been field tested in class. Referencing the issues touched on above, the latest firmware introduces WebUSB to allow the code to download from the browser (presumably whichever language you choose) straight to the Micro:bit, but this lacks support in Windows 7. This causes plug and play issues, particularly when it reinstalls the driver if you don't use exactly the same unit. There may be some interesting possibilities with the Pi Zero that can connect using an OTG cable allowing SSH access (or other network protocol) giving the potential for similar interaction to the Micro:bit (although more complex) and removing the need for extra peripherals. You could then control the various Hats via Python from a desktop. There was also a thing called the Rtk.GPIO which connected to a PC via USB to give it Raspberry Pi compatible GPIO ports. Not sure where / whether they are still available, and they didn't work with all Hats. That was more than I planned to type. Just checked and I appear to have 13 Raspberry Pis of various sorts (one running Nextcloud for the past couple of years) and 11 Micro:bits. I know where all the Micro:bits are - which reminds me I need to downgrade the firmware for tomorrow. -- Paul Tansom | Aptanet Ltd. | https://www.aptanet.com/ | 023 9238 0001 = Registere
Re: [Dorset] Micro:Bit
Hi Terry, > I commented that it was a shame that the Government / BBC hadn't > chosen the Raspberry Pi, since it already had a strong community. I think two things counted against the Pi back then. It's price, though I haven't checked on what Pi models were available when the decisions would have been being made, i.e. quite a bit before the micro:bit's release. And the opaqueness of its innards given it's a proprietary GPU that happens to be able to load code for an ARM on the side to run. Broadcom were never keen on opening the private bits up when I used to follow the topic. In comparison, the micro:bit is a lot more standard design for a `dev' board, with two ARMs, a Cortex M0 where your code runs, and a Cortex M0+ that provides the USB access to program the M0. Ditching the video output leaves a simpler system to build from scratch. (I have a micro:bit.) -- Cheers, Ralph. -- Next meeting: BEC, Bournemouth, Tuesday, 2019-04-02 20:00 Check to whom you are replying Meetings, mailing list, IRC, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ New thread, don't hijack: mailto:dorset@mailman.lug.org.uk
Re: [Dorset] Micro:Bit
On Sunday, 10 March 2019 13:51:19 GMT Keith Edmunds wrote: > So, er, what's the question? As Peter said, it came up during the LUG Meeting and I commented that it was a shame that the Government / BBC hadn't chosen the Raspberry Pi, since it already had a strong community. After a fairly robust discussion it was asserted that: a) I was anti Microsoft (which might have been true at the time, but less so now). b) I had no evidence that there was no Community behind the Micro:Bit and that was why the take-up was poor. c) I had no evidence that the take-up was poor. (Paul and I have long been adversaries on all things Microsoft :) ) Peter's response tends to support the lack Community and take-up, but I'd love to be proved wrong. -- Terry Coles -- Next meeting: BEC, Bournemouth, Tuesday, 2019-04-02 20:00 Check to whom you are replying Meetings, mailing list, IRC, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ New thread, don't hijack: mailto:dorset@mailman.lug.org.uk
Re: [Dorset] Micro:Bit
So, er, what's the question? -- Linux Tips: https://www.tiger-computing.co.uk/category/techtips/ -- Next meeting: BEC, Bournemouth, Tuesday, 2019-04-02 20:00 Check to whom you are replying Meetings, mailing list, IRC, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ New thread, don't hijack: mailto:dorset@mailman.lug.org.uk
[Dorset] Micro:Bit
We were wondering about this last Tuesday. I asked around and one of my neighbours who has three children of various ages, the oldest told me that some of her year used it last year in year 7 at the local middle school. I don't see any reference to it on the school web site. Peter M. -- Next meeting: BEC, Bournemouth, Tuesday, 2019-04-02 20:00 Check to whom you are replying Meetings, mailing list, IRC, ... http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ New thread, don't hijack: mailto:dorset@mailman.lug.org.uk
