Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
Am 17.05.2012 16:20, schrieb Timo Sirainen: On 17.5.2012, at 16.46, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 9:38 AM, Bill Cole dovecot-20110...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: A spammer claiming to be 'Tim Saarela tim.saar...@dovecot.fi' is sending out a pitch for Enterprise Level Support for Dovecot. The address of mine which he hit is only ever used for this mailing list, so it is clear that whatever the mechanism, this list is being harvested for commercial leads. Chill, Bill... Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I'm already in discussions with Tim for some support for my main client's migration... I was surprised that directly contacting people worked at all, but since it has I thought I'd allow it and hope it wouldn't piss off too many people.. There won't be more than that one mail, which you're free to just ignore. If we get enough funding we can hire more people to work on Dovecot (and related projects), and that would be good for everyone. Hi Timo , writing gnu software and offering paid support to it ,is a wide spreaded, nothing special about it. I did and would ever pay you in support/consult big setups, i agree hire more people will make dovecot better. But some people are more sensible about gnu status of software and recieve business mail then others. So you got in a communication trap, but everyone who benefit from your hard work on dovecot, in the last years, should excuse unwanted disturb. Anyway you may use other distribution/notification ways in the future keeping clearly splitted whats gnu and whats business. However in real world there are always people which cant make lucky in whatever you do *g Finally many thanks to you for coding great software ! -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 2012-05-17 7:02 PM, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Consider this saga a learning experience, but don't fret over it, and certainly don't lose any sleep over it. It's not 'that' big a deal. We all still adore you for this fantastic mail server you've so graciously provided us. +1000 :) -- Best regards, Charles
[Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
A spammer claiming to be 'Tim Saarela tim.saar...@dovecot.fi' is sending out a pitch for Enterprise Level Support for Dovecot. The address of mine which he hit is only ever used for this mailing list, so it is clear that whatever the mechanism, this list is being harvested for commercial leads.
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 2012-05-17 9:38 AM, Bill Cole dovecot-20110...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: A spammer claiming to be 'Tim Saarela tim.saar...@dovecot.fi' is sending out a pitch for Enterprise Level Support for Dovecot. The address of mine which he hit is only ever used for this mailing list, so it is clear that whatever the mechanism, this list is being harvested for commercial leads. Chill, Bill... Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I'm already in discussions with Tim for some support for my main client's migration... I for one am very happy to see this development, and there is another announcement coming soon that I am aware of that will be even better for dovecot's future. -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 17 May 2012, at 9:46, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 9:38 AM, Bill Cole dovecot-20110...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: A spammer claiming to be 'Tim Saarela tim.saar...@dovecot.fi' is sending out a pitch for Enterprise Level Support for Dovecot. The address of mine which he hit is only ever used for this mailing list, so it is clear that whatever the mechanism, this list is being harvested for commercial leads. Chill, Bill... Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I subscribed to the Dovecot Users mailing list, not Whatever spam Timo thinks is justifiable. If the terms of subscription are that the former includes the latter, that's a choice Timo has the power to make and I hope he will make that choice explicit. It would certainly settle what I tell people who ask my opinion of Dovecot Solutions Oy.
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 17.5.2012, at 16.46, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 9:38 AM, Bill Cole dovecot-20110...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: A spammer claiming to be 'Tim Saarela tim.saar...@dovecot.fi' is sending out a pitch for Enterprise Level Support for Dovecot. The address of mine which he hit is only ever used for this mailing list, so it is clear that whatever the mechanism, this list is being harvested for commercial leads. Chill, Bill... Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I'm already in discussions with Tim for some support for my main client's migration... I was surprised that directly contacting people worked at all, but since it has I thought I'd allow it and hope it wouldn't piss off too many people.. There won't be more than that one mail, which you're free to just ignore. If we get enough funding we can hire more people to work on Dovecot (and related projects), and that would be good for everyone.
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
Am 17.05.2012 16:20, schrieb dovecot-20120...@billmail.scconsult.com: On 17 May 2012, at 9:46, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 9:38 AM, Bill Cole dovecot-20110...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: A spammer claiming to be 'Tim Saarela tim.saar...@dovecot.fi' is sending out a pitch for Enterprise Level Support for Dovecot. The address of mine which he hit is only ever used for this mailing list, so it is clear that whatever the mechanism, this list is being harvested for commercial leads. Chill, Bill... Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I subscribed to the Dovecot Users mailing list, not Whatever spam Timo thinks is justifiable. well, but what is exactly your problem with people offering professional support for dovecot which is ON-TOPIC if this are not 20 mails each day? nothing better than have free opensource AND get informations where you can retrieve professional support if you are in trouble and have no time to post to the list and HOPE someone has an answer for you? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 17/05/2012 15:24, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 17.05.2012 16:20, schrieb dovecot-20120...@billmail.scconsult.com: On 17 May 2012, at 9:46, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 9:38 AM, Bill Coledovecot-20110...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: A spammer claiming to be 'Tim Saarelatim.saar...@dovecot.fi' is sending out a pitch for Enterprise Level Support for Dovecot. The address of mine which he hit is only ever used for this mailing list, so it is clear that whatever the mechanism, this list is being harvested for commercial leads. Chill, Bill... Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I subscribed to the Dovecot Users mailing list, not Whatever spam Timo thinks is justifiable. well, but what is exactly your problem with people offering professional support for dovecot which is ON-TOPIC if this are not 20 mails each day? nothing better than have free opensource AND get informations where you can retrieve professional support if you are in trouble and have no time to post to the list and HOPE someone has an answer for you? And he could do with re-posting his email, as I don't appear to have it in my archive. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 17.5.2012, at 17.25, Giles Coochey wrote: And he could do with re-posting his email, as I don't appear to have it in my archive. The list included only .com addresses, with gmail/yahoo/etc removed. I'm sure Tim will be happy to send you the email if you ask it from him. :)
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 2012-05-17 10:20 AM, dovecot-20120...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: On 17 May 2012, at 9:46, Charles Marcus wrote: Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I subscribed to the Dovecot Users mailing list, not Whatever spam Timo thinks is justifiable. I'm about ready to add you to my PLONK file Bill. That is ridiculous... if a formal announcement about a commercial support company that has Timo's blessing isn't pertinent to participants on the dovecot support list, then what is? Just admit you made a silly mistake and move on... -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 10:56:50AM -0400, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 10:20 AM, dovecot-20120...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: On 17 May 2012, at 9:46, Charles Marcus wrote: Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I subscribed to the Dovecot Users mailing list, not Whatever spam Timo thinks is justifiable. I'm about ready to add you to my PLONK file Bill. That is ridiculous... if a formal announcement about a commercial support company that has Timo's blessing isn't pertinent to participants on the dovecot support list, then what is? I did not received this mail so I can't comment on the appearance but I would not be happy to receive any unrequested commercial offers, irrelevant which form it comes along. I can understand Timo's desire to acquire as much paying customers as possible, but in this case he should at least have announced -- publicly -- what he plans to do and how to opt out. Such 'ideas' are a sure way to kill all the good reputation, which is crucial for open source projects. And, not to forget, it can lead to some nasty legal problems. Such forms of email marketing are at least in the EU and US prohibited. Just admit you made a silly mistake and move on... The only silly mistake was this answer of yours. Dennis -- Dennis Guhl () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 17/05/2012 16:20, Dennis Guhl wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 10:56:50AM -0400, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 10:20 AM, dovecot-20120...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: On 17 May 2012, at 9:46, Charles Marcus wrote: Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I subscribed to the Dovecot Users mailing list, not Whatever spam Timo thinks is justifiable. I'm about ready to add you to my PLONK file Bill. That is ridiculous... if a formal announcement about a commercial support company that has Timo's blessing isn't pertinent to participants on the dovecot support list, then what is? I did not received this mail so I can't comment on the appearance but I would not be happy to receive any unrequested commercial offers, irrelevant which form it comes along. I can understand Timo's desire to acquire as much paying customers as possible, but in this case he should at least have announced -- publicly -- what he plans to do and how to opt out. Such 'ideas' are a sure way to kill all the good reputation, which is crucial for open source projects. And, not to forget, it can lead to some nasty legal problems. Such forms of email marketing are at least in the EU and US prohibited. Just admit you made a silly mistake and move on... The only silly mistake was this answer of yours. Dennis [sarcasm on] No, I think we should lock Tim Timo up and force Timo to eat lentils while he codes his IMAP server for us. It's incredibly astounding that he should even need to be involved in a business where he makes money developing my free IMAP server software!!! [sarcasm off] smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
I hear people complaining about Timos' effort to try and make a profit out of his idea. Maybe these people would prefer for people like Timo to not announce anything at all and do this without informing anyone ? My take on this (if anyone is interested in my opinion) is that Timo should be free to do whatever he wants with his code. s. I merely function as a channel that filters music through the chaos of noise - Vangelis
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 2012-05-17 11:20 AM, Dennis Guhl d...@dguhl.org wrote: I did not received this mail so I can't comment on the appearance but I would not be happy to receive any unrequested commercial offers, irrelevant which form it comes along. It was a simple *notification* email, letting people know the new company exists. Sheesh... I can understand Timo's desire to acquire as much paying customers as possible, but in this case he should at least have announced -- publicly -- what he plans to do and how to opt out. Opt out of... what? Receiving a *single* *email* announcing the new company/service? I'm about ready to PLONK you too... as you're being more ridiculous than Bill. -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 17 May 2012, at 10:56, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 10:20 AM, dovecot-20120...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: On 17 May 2012, at 9:46, Charles Marcus wrote: Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I subscribed to the Dovecot Users mailing list, not Whatever spam Timo thinks is justifiable. I'm about ready to add you to my PLONK file Bill. Not necessary in regards to this list, as I'm moments away from doing that for you. That is ridiculous... if a formal announcement about a commercial support company that has Timo's blessing isn't pertinent to participants on the dovecot support list, then what is? Such an announcement was made months ago, to the list. I agree that is a reasonable use of the list. That announcement was not a direct message to a filter-exempted list-specific address. It also wasn't composed in broken MS-specific almost-HTML, so it was short and easily skimmed past. Just admit you made a silly mistake and move on... I don't believe it was silly, but I certainly made a mistake in that I had not anticipated how Timo views this mailing list. If you wish to engage in a public debate over the precise definition of spam then I must decline. I burnt out on that sport some years ago after years of repetitive and largely fruitless effort.
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 17 May 2012, at 10:20, Timo Sirainen wrote: On 17.5.2012, at 16.46, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 9:38 AM, Bill Cole dovecot-20110...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: A spammer claiming to be 'Tim Saarela tim.saar...@dovecot.fi' is sending out a pitch for Enterprise Level Support for Dovecot. The address of mine which he hit is only ever used for this mailing list, so it is clear that whatever the mechanism, this list is being harvested for commercial leads. Chill, Bill... Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I'm already in discussions with Tim for some support for my main client's migration... I was surprised that directly contacting people worked at all, but since it has I thought I'd allow it and hope it wouldn't piss off too many people.. There won't be more than that one mail, which you're free to just ignore. Thank you for your clarifying the fact that you see this mailing list as a resource for generating commercial leads. Your list, your rules.
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 04:36:07PM +0100, Spyros Tsiolis wrote: I hear people complaining about Timos' effort to try and make a profit out of his idea. The complains are not about the intention to make profit but about the way of costumer acquisition. Maybe these people would prefer for people like Timo to not announce anything at all and do this without informing anyone ? This is exactly what happens and rises complains. My take on this (if anyone is interested in my opinion) is that Timo should be free to do whatever he wants with his code. This is not about the code, this is about using data gathered from subscriptions to a public mailing list to send unasked marketing emails. Dennis
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 04:33:30PM +0100, Giles Coochey wrote: [..] [sarcasm on] No, I think we should lock Tim Timo up and force Timo to eat lentils while he codes his IMAP server for us. It's incredibly astounding that he should even need to be involved in a business where he makes money developing my free IMAP server software!!! [sarcasm off] Sarcastic comments which torn the wrong point are sorry. Dennis
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
I personally didn't mind a one-time notice from the dev's team that that are now offering paid commercial support. What if I WANTED it? I felt like it was a courtesy email from them to let me know that it's available. If those emails continue unsolicited, then it may start to feel like spam to me, but this did not. In general, I've actually been looking for ways to financially support good open source projects. I have worked with many find that oftentimes, the ones with hood commercial support tend to be ones that have the manpower resources needed to quickly fix bugs, patch vulnerabilities, maintain a strong development schedule give decent support through mailing lists similar means. So when I received the email, immediately I thought: Hmm. This may come in handy down the road, and would serve two purposes by giving me an easily justifiable means to support the project. That is all. - Doug Mortensen impalanetworks.com Sent from my Windows Phone From: Giles Coochey Sent: 5/17/2012 9:33 AM To: dovecot@dovecot.org Subject: Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads On 17/05/2012 16:20, Dennis Guhl wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 10:56:50AM -0400, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 10:20 AM, dovecot-20120...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: On 17 May 2012, at 9:46, Charles Marcus wrote: Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I subscribed to the Dovecot Users mailing list, not Whatever spam Timo thinks is justifiable. I'm about ready to add you to my PLONK file Bill. That is ridiculous... if a formal announcement about a commercial support company that has Timo's blessing isn't pertinent to participants on the dovecot support list, then what is? I did not received this mail so I can't comment on the appearance but I would not be happy to receive any unrequested commercial offers, irrelevant which form it comes along. I can understand Timo's desire to acquire as much paying customers as possible, but in this case he should at least have announced -- publicly -- what he plans to do and how to opt out. Such 'ideas' are a sure way to kill all the good reputation, which is crucial for open source projects. And, not to forget, it can lead to some nasty legal problems. Such forms of email marketing are at least in the EU and US prohibited. Just admit you made a silly mistake and move on... The only silly mistake was this answer of yours. Dennis [sarcasm on] No, I think we should lock Tim Timo up and force Timo to eat lentils while he codes his IMAP server for us. It's incredibly astounding that he should even need to be involved in a business where he makes money developing my free IMAP server software!!! [sarcasm off]
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
I was surprised that directly contacting people worked at all, but since it has I thought I'd allow it and hope it wouldn't piss off too many people.. There won't be more than that one mail, which you're free to just ignore. If we get enough funding we can hire more people to work on Dovecot (and related projects), and that would be good for everyone. I enjoy Dovecot and am glad you're working on further development, both in the nerd sense and the business sense. :) I don't have an issue with a single message like this going out to make people aware of the offering. However, I would prefer that it went to the list, instead of individually to the list members. That's the only part of this I didn't care for. If it becomes an issue, I'll deal with the issue appropriately. I just don't see an issue as of right now. Benny -- The problem with quotes on the internet is that it's very hard to verify their authenticity. -- Abraham Lincoln
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 2012-05-17 11:48 AM, C. Bensend be...@bennyvision.com wrote: However, I would prefer that it went to the list, instead of individually to the list members. That's the only part of this I didn't care for. Actually, I thought it did go to the list... Yeah, ok, now I can see a *little* legitimacy to the complaint, but I still think it is in pretty bad taste to bad mouth Timo as was done for such a tiny thing - and calling it 'spam' was way over the top... -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 09:47:23AM -0600, Douglas Mortensen wrote: I personally didn't mind a one-time notice from the dev's team that that are now offering paid commercial support. What if I WANTED it? There might be a lot of people who did not mind one offlist contact to a list address, but on the other side there will also be the fraction saying no, I subscribed to a mailing list and not to a marketing list. I felt like it was a courtesy email from them to let me know that it's available. The company was announced onlist sometimes around this time last year after Timo unofficially announced the company during a talk at the mailserver conference in Berlin. If those emails continue unsolicited, then it may start to feel like spam to me, but this did not. Obviously you are more tolerant in this regard then I would be. In general, I've actually been looking for ways to financially support good open source projects. I have worked with many find No question, but the way and form should be considered. Dennis [..]
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
Even with good intent the message in question is clearly in violation of CAN-SPAM and Cal. Bus. Prof. Code Sec. 17529, of which the sender was informed of when my server was accessed. It was very clearly an electronic mail message the primary purpose of which is the commercial advertisement or promotion of a commercial product or service. The sender did not have my direct consent to deliver such messages, nor did they have a preexisting business relationship with me. There was no notification that subscribing to this list would result in off-list commercial messages. There is no way to opt out of these messages. The message in question did not conform to the requirements of CAN-SPAM in regard to, at least: * Identifying the message as an advertisement * Including the valid physical postal address of the sender, recognized by the US Postal Service * Providing an opt-out mechanism (at all in this case), compliant with the CAN-SPAM requirements Yes, in this particular instance I found the content to be not distasteful; however is is very clearly spam as legally defined in the US and in California.
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 5/17/2012 9:45 AM, Timo Sirainen wrote: The list included only .com addresses, with gmail/yahoo/etc removed. I'm sure Tim will be happy to send you the email if you ask it from him. :) But not all .com's. I didn't receive such an email. Which means you sat down and spent some amount of time identifying who may be good targets for this marketing email and who not. It's better to receive UCE from someone I know than someone I don't. No, it's worst, due to the breach of previously established trust. -- Stan
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 05/17/2012 11:56 AM, Spyros Tsiolis wrote: But I still think that it was merely an issue of announcing it rather than gathering data from the list. First, that (assuming I understand correctly) the message was apparently sent by means other than the list suggests that a list of subscribers was indeed divulged. Second, while the label spam might be a value judgement, it was certainly unsolicited commercial email. Third, it is unclear that there was any means to opt out of such solicitations. By the applicable ethical standards I'm aware of, all of these are problematic. -- David Benfell dbenf...@gmail.com
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On 5/17/2012 3:19 PM, Timo Sirainen wrote: On 17.5.2012, at 22.56, Stan Hoeppner wrote: On 5/17/2012 9:45 AM, Timo Sirainen wrote: The list included only .com addresses, with gmail/yahoo/etc removed. I'm sure Tim will be happy to send you the email if you ask it from him. :) But not all .com's. I didn't receive such an email. Which means you sat down and spent some amount of time identifying who may be good targets for this marketing email and who not. It means that the mail was first sent to only a part of the list to see what happens. Yeah, I guess I should have spent a few more minutes thinking this through. Yeah, apparently you didn't realize that thing in your hand was a grenade before you tossed it. ;) It's not my intent, nor I believe that of others, to shred you to pieces over this Timo. It simply boils down to the fact that many on this list are rabid anti-spammers, and have spent years of our lives combating the UCE problem and educating people on email sender BCP. You broke BCP so you're getting your proverbial spanking over it. The fact that you author a mail server, of all things, I think makes it a bit worse, and some/many feel you should have known better. Maybe this is our mistake for assuming a mail server programmer should possess the same knowledge and experience as operators, should have cut you more slack. Put up an opt-in form on your commercial site (you have one don't you?) and post the link to the mailing list. That's the proper way to do this without irritating anyone. That's what the whole concept of 'opt-in' is all about. Consider this saga a learning experience, but don't fret over it, and certainly don't lose any sleep over it. It's not 'that' big a deal. We all still adore you for this fantastic mail server you've so graciously provided us. -- Stan
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
It wasn't sent to the list, it was direct, therefore it IS spam On Thu, 2012-05-17 at 16:24 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote: well, but what is exactly your problem with people offering professional support for dovecot which is ON-TOPIC if this are not 20 mails each day? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Dovecot] BEWARE: This list is being harvested for leads
On Thu, 2012-05-17 at 11:42 -0400, Bill Cole wrote: On 17 May 2012, at 10:56, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2012-05-17 10:20 AM, dovecot-20120...@billmail.scconsult.com wrote: On 17 May 2012, at 9:46, Charles Marcus wrote: Tim is working closely with Timo, and I'm sure got Timo's permission to send that email to list subscribers. I subscribed to the Dovecot Users mailing list, not Whatever spam Timo thinks is justifiable. I'm about ready to add you to my PLONK file Bill. Not necessary in regards to this list, as I'm moments away from doing that for you. oh dear god, is that wanker marcus still on this list acting like a nazi? things never change signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
