Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
mouss wrote: Warning: too much speculation above. Also... SN have stated they have no intention of closing dspam. The fact that they can (with some limitations and without in any way preventing or limiting a fork) has been discussed because there seemed to be a misapprehension that they couldn't. They can, but it does not matter. What matters is that SN have so far been unable to manage the project in such a way as to give it adequate forward momentum. My view is that this was no the desire of SN but has happened because SN have no had the right management resources to throw at it, and therefore they ought to be prepared to move the project to (eg) SourceForge to allow it to continue there under new management (but without any change to ownership). The alternative would be a fork, so the same code goes to the same place (SF) and future development continues there, but SN hang on to the codebase they have now while the new codebase (with a new name) grows without their involvement and without delivering any value on their investment. The third alternative (SN manage the project as now) is, to me at least, a non-starter, and I hope we can move past that with one of the two alternatives above. -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG !DSPAM:1011,48fc9b70150921485624627!
AW: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Looks to me for a first Step for a new Start.. there some real interesting new Informations But theres also always an alternative to SF. I don’t like the SF Idea cause youll need many Stuff yourself anyway. Ok it could (and should) be registered anyway But there not that much usefull tools for the project (forums unusable bugtracker can much better, slow servers and many ads) But this is just an location discussion and as we heared (and I self offered) there many possible locations for hosting stuff and theres many gpl software management (trackers, supportsystem, dorums and so) out there to host and mange this project by the ourself - the community But this isn’t the real important question. The real one is Fork or no fork. If no fork what is sn willing to do together with us (because we will do the most work for their product) so asking about support in some way from sn isn’t to much I guess. (and I guess this wasn’t English in any way. I am sorry I cant see the difference I just partially know the words *g*) And who is willing to do which kind of job/role in this project and who will approve that? Maybe option is isn’t a non starter if website... stays but get new management and support by sn... I think there also many possible varations of these 3 options. So lets talk about :-) PS: and im happy to started that thread... really happy to see the ongoing discussion and information and the resulted opportunities ... hey what im saying. If a program have a bug and project seems to be dead simple reactive the hole project so someone solve the bug lol) - The third alternative (SN manage the project as now) is, to me at least, a non-starter, and I hope we can move past that with one of the two alternatives above. -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG !DSPAM:1011,48fcce7d150928597596905!
Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
David Rees a écrit : On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 3:20 AM, Mark Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know if all contributions to the codebase from other developers had the copyright signed over to Jonathon, so it may be that they themselves only have the right to use some parts of the code under the GPL (that's where it gets a bit messy), but assuming they have copyright to the full code they do *not* have to abide by the GPL themselves. So I guess the question is - did anyone who submitted any significant amount of work to dspam also transfer copyright to Jon (and thus Sensory)? $ grep COPYRIGHT */* |grep -v ZDZIARSKI src/external_lookup.c: COPYRIGHT (C) 2006 HUGO MONTEIRO src/external_lookup.h: COPYRIGHT (C) 2006 HUGO MONTEIRO so SN can fork a commercial version while keeping external_lookup.* open, or they can acquire the copyright for this, or they can rewrite it. If not, then it's quite clear that unless Sensory did remove those contributions, they would effectively be unable to take a copy of the codebase and close source dspam as it is now. To be clear: * SN can do what they like with the code, they're not bound by the GPL Only if they own copyright for all of the code. If care wasn't taken by contributors to give copyright to Jon/Sensory, then they do not own all the code and are in fact, bound by the GPL. !DSPAM:1011,48fa0b2b150929903538892!
Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Imposit.com - Webmaster a écrit : Hmm sorry I didn’t know that the rights are sold. But why they dindt do anything? But in that case (maybe im wrong tell me if iam) I see no chance to make a fork. Ok its gpl but wont the right still reserved at sensory networks? The COPYRIGHT owner can change the license, but this doesn't apply to code that is previously released under an open source license. Imagine a company that used the code in their product (without infringing the LICENSE). You don't imagine somebody coming one day and saying: oh, now, you have to drop all that because it's ours. sorry for the N years you lost working on this stuff. so IANAL, but I believe you can fork the code (and I guess the product name must be changed). That said, it woudn't be good to have N forks, unless you believe in evolutionary theory which would imply that one of the forks will win. (amavisd-new is an example). but now, it would be nice if someone volunteers to summarize the problems (what is needed/lacking/...). such a list could be used to get back to SN or to start a new project. Dont understand me wrong but that might be a free support for sensory without something coming back. Wont be a good idea I think speculation I can't speak for SN, but I could speculate: - They were convinced that dspam is a good product, and found it good to acquire the Copyright. They hope(d) that they will get benefits from that. for example: support, creaton of a commercial version (something like mysql AB business model), selling a dspam appliance, ... etc - The benefits are not obvious enough (or not short term) so they can't dedicate enough resources (today). (again, this is speculation). now, stop asking Mike to give you internal details. Unless they took a clear decision on this subject and that decision is not confidential, he can tell you nothing. I guess many here have worked or work in commercial companies and understand this. At least, this was my experience in all the companies I worked for. This was frustrating many times, but that's it. Many times, I would have preferred giving a clear statement and explaining what our plans were, but I worked in RD, not in strategy/bus dev/legal/... etc. Warning: too much speculation above. /speculation !DSPAM:1011,48fa1447150924254718560!
Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 10:24 +0100, Mark Rogers wrote: Mick Johnson wrote: The current state is that Sensory owns the copyright to the project, but as noted on the list it's GPLv2 and we have no intention of changing that. If I understand correctly, this means that anyone is free to develop the code under the GPL, but only SN have the rights to take the existing code base and develop a closed-source version (or for that matter decide to release it under a different licence). Of-course taking the existing codebase and created a closed source derivative would not affect anyone using (or forking) the GPL code. If code is GPLv2 then it will always be GPLv2. You cannot fork it off to another non-GPLv2 fork as it includes the orginal GPLv2 code. This is one of the great things about GPLv2 code. SN have the same rights to use it as everyone else in the world does as long as they follow the GPLv2 Licence. I (and anyone else in the world) copy the code,change it release new versions, even (try) and sell the software myself as long as they follow the GPLv2 Licence terms (GPLv2 is great eh?) If SN release say a commercial version of the software then they will have to do a few things to make it GPLv2 complient (have a written offer for the source code and include the GPLv2 Licence with the software) I would think SN would more sell support for the software rather than the software itself (as its GPLv2 Licenced) I use dspam in a very large mail cluster and dspam is great and have used it for many years and Jon even included a few things into dspam that I asked for and I think I submitted quite a number of bug reports/fixes (it was years ago) Thanks Craig !DSPAM:1011,48f861bd15092608567!
Re: [**SPAM?**] Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Hello On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 10:24 +0100, Mark Rogers wrote: Mick Johnson wrote: The current state is that Sensory owns the copyright to the project, but as noted on the list it's GPLv2 and we have no intention of changing that. If I understand correctly, this means that anyone is free to develop the code under the GPL, but only SN have the rights to take the existing code base and develop a closed-source version (or for that matter decide to release it under a different licence). Of-course taking the existing codebase and created a closed source derivative would not affect anyone using (or forking) the GPL code. This is all academic if SN have no intention of creating a closed source version, but might help others understand the licensing. In effect only SN have the right to tweak the code and release binaries without also releasing the new code under the GPL, but SN have no plans to make use of that right, or (presumably) to sell that right on, and were that to change it would have no bearing on the continued use and development of the GPL'd code. Can I ask you, Mike, what SN's overall perspective on the status of dSpam is? If I were to guess, I'd say that it was taken on with plans to develop it and do all the right things (develop the documentation, have releases, sell support, etc), but for whatever reason (change of personnel, or personnel just too busy on other projects) those things have not happened. I've certainly taken on commitments myself in the past that I've then failed to deliver on. If any of this is the case, then given where we are now what would SN actually want to happen? Presumably as SN hold the copyright you'd like to see the product develop and grow so that your ownership of dSpam has some value, even if for whatever reason SN haven't been able to manage that effectively so far. My guess is that you (SN) would prefer dSpam to grow without a fork, and hopefully recognise that this isn't happening with SN taking a central role. If so, would SN actively support a migration to (say) SourceForge? If you are interested in doing so please drop me a line and we'll set up CVS rights etc. I can't speak for others but I would be concerned about leaving the overall management of the project in SN's hands given how things have progressed in the past 18 months, and I really am trying to say that without offending SN (although I probably failed). There have been occasions where the dSpam website has been down for long periods, the dev- mailing list has not worked for some months. Surely SN would prefer to have someone else take on that management role so that you can continue to make technical contributions without also having to do the babysitting? It would be a huge shame for SN to manage to kill dSpam when I am absolutely convinced this is the complete opposite of what SN want to do. Unfortunately what happens at the moment is that every few months some momentum builds up here around the idea of taking dSpam forward, and then SN step up and promise to be more supportive and that things will change, but they don't and it all goes quiet for a few months then kicks off again. I really understand SN's desire for the situation to be different but I think the time has come for SN to recognise that their strengths and the support they can offer to dSpam are in areas other than managing the project. NB: For all of the above reasons I will not be volunteering to manage dSpam either. I'd love to do it, but I know that I'd kill it by trying. I've been trying to find the time for months to write a new PHP web interface for dSpam and not even managed that! I would hope that anyone who does offer to take the role on (whether supported by SN or as a fork) understands what they are letting themselves in for and only makes commitments they can keep (which is why I'm +1 for using SourceForge, Google Code or somewhere similar rather than taking up the offer of any individual). -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG We use dSpam for our company and offer this as a service for thousand customers. Part (a little, but always some)of our business is trusting dSpam. So, given that, and if any proprietor licenses is going away, I would be more than happy to place a paid full time developer (we have a team of 10 active developers working full time) to keep dSpam running. Also, will provide Hosting for it (we run 6 different datacenters and can perform very well). I believe there are interests from many sides in having dSpam running without a fork (that we could do ourselves). Hope this helps Regards -- Pablo Povarchik FuturaHost.Com (AS41578) - The Hosting Professionals Chief Executive Officer
Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Mick Johnson wrote: The current state is that Sensory owns the copyright to the project, but as noted on the list it's GPLv2 and we have no intention of changing that. If I understand correctly, this means that anyone is free to develop the code under the GPL, but only SN have the rights to take the existing code base and develop a closed-source version (or for that matter decide to release it under a different licence). Of-course taking the existing codebase and created a closed source derivative would not affect anyone using (or forking) the GPL code. This is all academic if SN have no intention of creating a closed source version, but might help others understand the licensing. In effect only SN have the right to tweak the code and release binaries without also releasing the new code under the GPL, but SN have no plans to make use of that right, or (presumably) to sell that right on, and were that to change it would have no bearing on the continued use and development of the GPL'd code. Can I ask you, Mike, what SN's overall perspective on the status of dSpam is? If I were to guess, I'd say that it was taken on with plans to develop it and do all the right things (develop the documentation, have releases, sell support, etc), but for whatever reason (change of personnel, or personnel just too busy on other projects) those things have not happened. I've certainly taken on commitments myself in the past that I've then failed to deliver on. If any of this is the case, then given where we are now what would SN actually want to happen? Presumably as SN hold the copyright you'd like to see the product develop and grow so that your ownership of dSpam has some value, even if for whatever reason SN haven't been able to manage that effectively so far. My guess is that you (SN) would prefer dSpam to grow without a fork, and hopefully recognise that this isn't happening with SN taking a central role. If so, would SN actively support a migration to (say) SourceForge? If you are interested in doing so please drop me a line and we'll set up CVS rights etc. I can't speak for others but I would be concerned about leaving the overall management of the project in SN's hands given how things have progressed in the past 18 months, and I really am trying to say that without offending SN (although I probably failed). There have been occasions where the dSpam website has been down for long periods, the dev- mailing list has not worked for some months. Surely SN would prefer to have someone else take on that management role so that you can continue to make technical contributions without also having to do the babysitting? It would be a huge shame for SN to manage to kill dSpam when I am absolutely convinced this is the complete opposite of what SN want to do. Unfortunately what happens at the moment is that every few months some momentum builds up here around the idea of taking dSpam forward, and then SN step up and promise to be more supportive and that things will change, but they don't and it all goes quiet for a few months then kicks off again. I really understand SN's desire for the situation to be different but I think the time has come for SN to recognise that their strengths and the support they can offer to dSpam are in areas other than managing the project. NB: For all of the above reasons I will not be volunteering to manage dSpam either. I'd love to do it, but I know that I'd kill it by trying. I've been trying to find the time for months to write a new PHP web interface for dSpam and not even managed that! I would hope that anyone who does offer to take the role on (whether supported by SN or as a fork) understands what they are letting themselves in for and only makes commitments they can keep (which is why I'm +1 for using SourceForge, Google Code or somewhere similar rather than taking up the offer of any individual). -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG !DSPAM:1011,48f859e3150922969763757!
Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:20:57 +0100 Von: Mark Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: dspam-users@lists.nuclearelephant.com Betreff: Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active? Craig Whitmore wrote: SN have the same rights to use it as everyone else in the world does as long as they follow the GPLv2 Licence. SN have the copyright to the code, which the bought from Jonathon. They can do what they like with the code. As the copyright holder, they have released the code to us (the rest of the world) under the GPL. However its still their code and they can close it whenever they want. However, the code already out there under the GPL *cannot* be taken out of the GPL by anyone. I don't know if all contributions to the codebase from other developers had the copyright signed over to Jonathon, so it may be that they themselves only have the right to use some parts of the code under the GPL (that's where it gets a bit messy), but assuming they have copyright to the full code they do *not* have to abide by the GPL themselves. To be clear: * SN can do what they like with the code, they're not bound by the GPL * SN have said they have no intention to release code other than under the GPL * Once code has been released under GPL it is safe, it cannot be taken back. Of-course IANAL and I am ready to be corrected :-) You are right. SN can not take back GPLv2 code. And you are as well right with Jonz about code contributed by others: They had formally to hand over the copyright to Jonz and SN is doing the same. And you are as well right, that SN can take the current dSpam and produce out of it an closed source product. Any one can close any GPL code if they get the approval from the copyright holders. And since SN is the only copyright holder of the dSpam code, then can just ask them self if they can close the product. SN on the other hand can integrate any contributed code into dSpam or any other GPL code into dSpam. But they are not allowed to push out that merged dSpam in a closed source product without asking the other contributors if they are allowed to do so. Sorry for the long and messy text, but English is not my native language. -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger !DSPAM:1011,48f88c2b150929386952693!
AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Sorry mark but I cant agree Dspam need active development. The current state (and im not talking about the bugs) is maybe somekind of stable But it isnt that finished solution in any way. There much things to do and many improvements and we need a future not a short wound fixing idea An server side multiuser antispam solution isnt a thing you can change within one day. Every server need documentation for their users how to use it. What do you think will happen when even a small server has to change from dspam to another software? And this WILL happen without active development AND maintance. The thing about packages and release is just the end of the production line. An important no question. but only a part. Without future developing the project is death. Maybe you can fix some wounds but what is about some improvements or better webui (some people wanna do that but they scared that the base is death so they wont start it) And what is in 2 years ? There also some things open beside the bugs (like the whole group thing isnt that production ready) Im sorry but without active lifesing by the project maintainers ill see no future -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Mark Rogers Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 12:12 An: dspam-users@lists.nuclearelephant.com Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active? Marcin M. Jessa wrote: Sure, the idea was to try to make the life easier for people who need prepackaged software. I am not saying Linux is better or worse, I am just saying I experienced it's easier to get package updates upstream on BSDs. This may be part of a way forward. I understand that the Gentoo packages are pretty up to date and well maintained, and it sounds like the same is true on the BSD side? What would be needed for one of those to be used as the base for general releases? Dspam probably doesn't need any active development as much as it needs active maintenance, and that already exists elsewhere. We just need to take advantage of it in a way which doesn't cause those maintainers a headache. -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG !DSPAM:1011,48f71596150928416651898!
AW: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
@Hendrikx Youve got the Point. Look I think we must look for a lifesing from the original Maintainer. There might be manyreasons why the projects semms to be frozen. Maybe lack of communityresponse or whatever else. And youre right if nothing comes from there the project dspam itself is dead and maybe a fork is the solution. In any case code developers needed. Simply to help the maintainer or restart fresh... This is one absolute basic thing, that’s why im aksing about a lifesign Without that any additional help and support, any ideas and bugfixing is worthless and we can forget dspam. There some people willig to make a new php based frontend but wont help without core developers and theyre hard to find for this project (its seems to be hmm) !DSPAM:1011,48f722a8150921917292142!
AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Well since the rights to Dspam was sold to Sensory Networks, it will be up to us to develop it. Although I'm not a programmer, I'd like to see this project maintained. It's very powerful, but does lack fine tuning. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Imposit.com - Webmaster Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 6:17 AM To: dspam-users@lists.nuclearelephant.com Subject: AW: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active? @Hendrikx Youve got the Point. Look I think we must look for a lifesing from the original Maintainer. There might be manyreasons why the projects semms to be frozen. Maybe lack of communityresponse or whatever else. And youre right if nothing comes from there the project dspam itself is dead and maybe a fork is the solution. In any case code developers needed. Simply to help the maintainer or restart fresh... This is one absolute basic thing, that's why im aksing about a lifesign Without that any additional help and support, any ideas and bugfixing is worthless and we can forget dspam. There some people willig to make a new php based frontend but wont help without core developers and theyre hard to find for this project (its seems to be hmm) !DSPAM:1011,48f73032150927981261214!
RE: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
I'm included on the list of people who are using 3.6.8 and that's because I'm running The SpamSnake based on Ubuntu. I would have 2 completely different versions of the SpamSnake, however, I couldn't get the history page to work using shared,manage on 3.6.8. Instead, I use it after MailScanner, to supplement Spamassassin in the fight against spam. I contacted Jonathan A. Zdziarski himself and he told me about the rights being sold. If someone or a group of people wants to develop/maintain the Dspam project, I think it would be wise to first contact Sensory Networks. They may not want us messing around with their software and would probably expect us to donate something in return for their permission to maintain it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Rogers Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:30 AM To: dspam-users@lists.nuclearelephant.com Subject: Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active? Imposit.com - Webmaster wrote: Sorry mark but I cant agree Dspam need active development. The current state (and im not talking about the bugs) is maybe somekind of stable OK, maybe I should be clearer. Maintenance is essential. That means someone (or a group of people) must collect patches, keep the source repository up to date and (this is the bit that is missing) manage releases. Ideally they should actively liase with distro package maintainers to see the current release available as a package for those distros. All of these things will allow the userbase to increase not decline. With an increasing userbase there will be (a) an increase in the number of things on the dspam wish list, and (b) an increase in the number of developers able and (crucially) willing to act on them. With the above maintenance in place the route for those improvements to get out to the users is already there. However, whilst I can get involved in some aspects of the coding (primarily in the web interface), I'm currently stuck at 3.6.8 because I choose not to use custom builds on production servers and I'm using Debian packages for everything else. There will be many people who are not interested in relying on CVS builds for production systems and without them the chances of finding active developers will dwindle. I'm sure that most of us do not routinely build our own kernels and Apache, Postfix, Perl, etc, even though many of us are more than capable of doing so. The number of people asking questions on this list about 3.6.8 confirms this - in theory nobody should really be using 3.6.8 anymore, yet many many people are still installing it on new systems, never mind maintaining it on legacy systems. -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG !DSPAM:1011,48f735aa150921047970997!
RE: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
I'm sorry, I meant I couldn't get the quarantine feature to work in 3.6.8. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mohammed Alli Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:35 AM To: dspam-users@lists.nuclearelephant.com Subject: RE: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active? I'm included on the list of people who are using 3.6.8 and that's because I'm running The SpamSnake based on Ubuntu. I would have 2 completely different versions of the SpamSnake, however, I couldn't get the history page to work using shared,manage on 3.6.8. Instead, I use it after MailScanner, to supplement Spamassassin in the fight against spam. I contacted Jonathan A. Zdziarski himself and he told me about the rights being sold. If someone or a group of people wants to develop/maintain the Dspam project, I think it would be wise to first contact Sensory Networks. They may not want us messing around with their software and would probably expect us to donate something in return for their permission to maintain it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Rogers Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:30 AM To: dspam-users@lists.nuclearelephant.com Subject: Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active? Imposit.com - Webmaster wrote: Sorry mark but I cant agree Dspam need active development. The current state (and im not talking about the bugs) is maybe somekind of stable OK, maybe I should be clearer. Maintenance is essential. That means someone (or a group of people) must collect patches, keep the source repository up to date and (this is the bit that is missing) manage releases. Ideally they should actively liase with distro package maintainers to see the current release available as a package for those distros. All of these things will allow the userbase to increase not decline. With an increasing userbase there will be (a) an increase in the number of things on the dspam wish list, and (b) an increase in the number of developers able and (crucially) willing to act on them. With the above maintenance in place the route for those improvements to get out to the users is already there. However, whilst I can get involved in some aspects of the coding (primarily in the web interface), I'm currently stuck at 3.6.8 because I choose not to use custom builds on production servers and I'm using Debian packages for everything else. There will be many people who are not interested in relying on CVS builds for production systems and without them the chances of finding active developers will dwindle. I'm sure that most of us do not routinely build our own kernels and Apache, Postfix, Perl, etc, even though many of us are more than capable of doing so. The number of people asking questions on this list about 3.6.8 confirms this - in theory nobody should really be using 3.6.8 anymore, yet many many people are still installing it on new systems, never mind maintaining it on legacy systems. -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG !DSPAM:1011,48f736ba150921293570181!
Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Hi, To make this work, you'll need active development, that's true. The idea of a fork (or whatever you like to call it), is that you're taking the work in your own hands, and no longer depend on the old/pre-fork developers. Given the fact that the whole problem right now is that the current developers do not give any lifesigns, it is not realistic that you want to support them more, or want want to depend on them before you try to kickstart anything based on the current codebase. When they want to leave the project in someone else's hands, they could've sent an e-mail to this list and invite people to take active part in the project, and then delete their own CVS accounts. This is not the case, and when such a thing doesn't happen after this e-mail conversation (or after any of the numerous earlier fork-related threads on this list), the only conclusion is to just fork and start a new project. Set up a development environment, import the codebase, put up bugtrackers, wiki's and the like and start hacking. The one thing that you lack, at the moment, are the people that can continue to work on the codebase. This list contains people that want to host project stuff, test (beta) releases and patches, file bugs, add ideas or even write documentation, but I haven't heard anyone saying: yes I want to start hacking on this codebase right away. When you find these people, all the rest is trivial. So the question really is: are there people willing to get their hands dirty on this codebase, and spend some time to improve DSPAM? -- Regards, Tom Imposit.com - Webmaster schreef: Sorry mark but I cant agree Dspam need active development. The current state (and im not talking about the bugs) is maybe somekind of stable But it isn’t that finished solution in any way. There much things to do and many improvements and we need a future not a short wound fixing idea An server side multiuser antispam solution isn’t a thing you can change within one day. Every server need documentation for their users how to use it. What do you think will happen when even a small server has to change from dspam to another software? And this WILL happen without active development AND maintance. The thing about packages and release is just the end of the production line. An important no question. but only a part. Without future developing the project is death. Maybe you can fix some wounds but what is about some improvements or better webui (some people wanna do that but they scared that the base is death so they wont start it) And what is in 2 years ? There also some things open beside the bugs (like the whole group thing isn’t that production ready) Im sorry but without active lifesing by the project maintainers ill see no future -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Mark Rogers Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 12:12 An: dspam-users@lists.nuclearelephant.com Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active? Marcin M. Jessa wrote: Sure, the idea was to try to make the life easier for people who need prepackaged software. I am not saying Linux is better or worse, I am just saying I experienced it's easier to get package updates upstream on BSDs. This may be part of a way forward. I understand that the Gentoo packages are pretty up to date and well maintained, and it sounds like the same is true on the BSD side? What would be needed for one of those to be used as the base for general releases? Dspam probably doesn't need any active development as much as it needs active maintenance, and that already exists elsewhere. We just need to take advantage of it in a way which doesn't cause those maintainers a headache. !DSPAM:1011,48f71eae150922763930711!
Re: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Imposit.com - Webmaster wrote: Sorry mark but I cant agree Dspam need active development. The current state (and im not talking about the bugs) is maybe somekind of stable OK, maybe I should be clearer. Maintenance is essential. That means someone (or a group of people) must collect patches, keep the source repository up to date and (this is the bit that is missing) manage releases. Ideally they should actively liase with distro package maintainers to see the current release available as a package for those distros. All of these things will allow the userbase to increase not decline. With an increasing userbase there will be (a) an increase in the number of things on the dspam wish list, and (b) an increase in the number of developers able and (crucially) willing to act on them. With the above maintenance in place the route for those improvements to get out to the users is already there. However, whilst I can get involved in some aspects of the coding (primarily in the web interface), I'm currently stuck at 3.6.8 because I choose not to use custom builds on production servers and I'm using Debian packages for everything else. There will be many people who are not interested in relying on CVS builds for production systems and without them the chances of finding active developers will dwindle. I'm sure that most of us do not routinely build our own kernels and Apache, Postfix, Perl, etc, even though many of us are more than capable of doing so. The number of people asking questions on this list about 3.6.8 confirms this - in theory nobody should really be using 3.6.8 anymore, yet many many people are still installing it on new systems, never mind maintaining it on legacy systems. -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG !DSPAM:1011,48f733c4150925707858403!
AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Hmm sorry I didnt know that the rights are sold. But why they dindt do anything? But in that case (maybe im wrong tell me if iam) I see no chance to make a fork. Ok its gpl but wont the right still reserved at sensory networks? Dont understand me wrong but that might be a free support for sensory without something coming back. Wont be a good idea I think -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Mohammed Alli Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008 15:12 An: dspam-users@lists.nuclearelephant.com Betreff: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active? Well since the rights to Dspam was sold to Sensory Networks, it will be up to us to develop it. Although I'm not a programmer, I'd like to see this project maintained. It's very powerful, but does lack fine tuning. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Imposit.com - Webmaster Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 6:17 AM To: dspam-users@lists.nuclearelephant.com Subject: AW: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active? @Hendrikx Youve got the Point. Look I think we must look for a lifesing from the original Maintainer. There might be manyreasons why the projects semms to be frozen. Maybe lack of communityresponse or whatever else. And youre right if nothing comes from there the project dspam itself is dead and maybe a fork is the solution. In any case code developers needed. Simply to help the maintainer or restart fresh... This is one absolute basic thing, that's why im aksing about a lifesign Without that any additional help and support, any ideas and bugfixing is worthless and we can forget dspam. There some people willig to make a new php based frontend but wont help without core developers and theyre hard to find for this project (its seems to be hmm) !DSPAM:1011,48f7334f150928055189282!
AW: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Jari sorry but that’s not really true. Im not talking about out of the box installation, and documentation is madeable by anyone. But depending which kind of installation you use (special daemon mode) there are some real issues that are not wirking for most. Theres also a lack of some major changes. First suexec for the webinterface is horrible, Second still using files for protocol and statistics while the userprefs are storend in mysql also not that good. These things causes some permission problems. So here is some kind of improvement necessary. (and there many possible solutions how to solve that) Ife also no dspam logfile with the svn version (I just get binary waste into it) And if I use the daemon in background the errormessages get transported to the foreground in the console (lol) There should be also a damon background mode for the star-stop-daemon and some fallback solutions. (messages get lost or going to the dspam user if database server is down) These are major things... It would be also good having a framework or something like that for the webui instead of an perl script. I really don’t like it from the point of security view. That we need an htaccess access is also not optimal. There better ways But no one can do a new webinterface nonper based (lets say based on java or php) without active delevopment. I know many people still loves perl but special with suexec it’s a major security thread. And were still not talking about the mostly non or badworking group support. Here many things nesecarry. Also you cannot control what groups doing and how good they working. Not systemwide. Also make no sense having a managed,shared group but having splittet historys Theres also a problem with forwarding multiple emails for trainings (with mysql signature). I asked on that list bevore but got no response so I think its really not possible (if I forward 2 emails for traing both get detected I dan see in the debug log but only one of them get accepted if someone knows something ...:-) Next thing is you’ve no real working overview (if you use spamtraps) how good theyre working . So dspam is often working as a blackbox and you can simply hope. Ok you can turn on debug but that make no real sense.. There many not ready or not really production useable even with 15 users and far not with 1500. About the license. I don’t think its that easy to fork it even in gpl. Im not an gplv2 specialist but it means not everyone can form and restart it again( I think) there some reason why some gpl projects got sold for a billion or 2 :-) And only getting the approved maintainance without be shure about the license make no sense. By all love to dspam im not willing to support a company which bought a software and wait for their users to develop it. About SOURCEFORGE Partitial maby but sourceforge have some major disadvantages. You cannot really use their forums for supporting. Their bugtracking is also not the top of the food line. There better solutions and as we can see many people wanna support. I would see it some people hosting parts of it. There many way to do that. But theres a reason why the most bigger projects are only for downloads or as an list entry at sourceforge but their project sites, tracker and forums are hosted privately Sourceforge has also many advertising. But honestly if this project get forged im shure we can easily cover all hosting costs by using own ads or simply use non... The point is the project maintainers can decide if they wanna have this while at sourceforge you have to and get only a little space on real slow server. Jari Juslin I half agree here. DSpam could use a lot more documentation and ease-of-installation,.. !DSPAM:1011,48f79da4150921566013356!
Re: AW: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
Imposit.com - Webmaster kirjoitti: First suexec for the webinterface is horrible, Second still using files for protocol and statistics while the userprefs are storend in mysql also not that good. These things causes some permission problems. Good point. I just scrapped the web parts, as they felt dubious and I haven't even thought about them ever since. I do the training the way my friend suggested: let DSpam only tag mail and then use procmail to send spam to specific folder. Then I have two special folders ThisIsSpam and ThisIsNotSpam that are periodically scanned (by cron job) and any mail in them is re-trained. This is also a lot more user-friendly, as all the training and spam-double-checking can be done with the same UI, your regular mail reader. -Jari !DSPAM:1011,48f7a2af150921320450736!
RE: AW: AW: AW: [dspam-users] Dspam Project still active?
The gplv2 does clearly state that the software is free. However, Jonathan said that we should ask them first if anyone's maintaining it and if not, ask them if we could. He said it may be a good opportunity for us to fork it. Historically this is the point in the thread where someone from SN pops up and says that they are actively maintaining it or wish to or are otherwise trying to make progress. *ding ding ding* right on schedule :-) From Sensory's perspective we see Dspam as a great project and one we've contributed a lot to over the years, both during the time Jonathan was driving it and also afterwards. The current state is that Sensory owns the copyright to the project, but as noted on the list it's GPLv2 and we have no intention of changing that. Furthermore, we're more than happy for people from the developer community to step up and take a more active role in terms of releases, maintenance, development, etc. If you are interested in doing so please drop me a line and we'll set up CVS rights etc. Cheers mick !DSPAM:1011,48f7a604150921827718357!
