Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
Daveyou have hit the nail on the head... When you talk about radio operating procedures in past years where traffic nets abounded and circuit discipline was entirely different you are in another generation. When WWII evolved thousands of amateur radio operators enlisted and were quickly pounding a key with a minimum of training. This could never happen today. Unknown to many of the more recent hams is that the Q signals were used by net participants to cut down on time expended to send the entire item in code. We will probably never see those activities again.the military does not even bother with CW these days..new radios do not even have a key jack nor do the present day communicators even know the code. This is the digital battlefield now... At least we still have our memories. 73 Norm K1AA - Original Message - From: David Yarnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jim Abercrombie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone In the past, using the phrase break, break, break--called a triple break--was supposed to only occur in an emergency. This comes from net operating procedures mainly. Otherwise, you would just say break, break if you wanted to be recognized, but not for emergency purposes. Nonetheless, a single break is often used to request recognition. The term break, spoken only once, is also intended to indicated a separation between parts. For example, when passing a message, there will often be heard the term break after the address of the person for whom the message is intended, but prior to the actual text. The military similarly used the word break as a separator between parts. Another example is that a net control station might use the term break to clearly indicate the end of one task or communication, and the beginning of another. Net operating procedures are not all that familiar to most hams these days as there are not very many nets left. There was a time when I was very active in net operations, and there were lots of nets in which to participate. Most were run under very strict procedures. The ones I hear today are much less formal for the most part. Perhaps the MARS nets still in operation are run more formally, but only a handful of others seem to retain that kind of net discipline. But net operations used to be primarily for the purpose of passing traffic, whereas now most of them are just a regularly scheduled event where people show up, and perhaps take their turn at a short, informal transmission. So, I don't think the documented procedures have necessarily changed, but the actual practice of these procedures has moderated substantially. Dave W7AQK - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jim Abercrombie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone The line Break, Break, Break appears in The New Technician Class FCC License Preparation, Third Edition, which contained the July 1, 1990 326 Question Pool. Gorden West, WB6NOA is credited, and it was Developed and Published by Master Publishing, Inc., and distributed by Radio Shack. I quote from page 41: 3AB-2-1-2 Why should users of a station in repeater operation pause briefly between transmissions? A. To check the SWR of the repeater B. To reach for pencil and paper for third party traffic C. To listen for any hams wanting to break in D. To dial up the repeater's autopatch ANSWER C: A repeater is like a party linethere may be others who may wish to use the system. In an emergency, stations may break in saying Break, Break, Break. Give up the channel immediately. Always leave enough time between picking up the conversation for other stations to break in. It's a pause that may refresh someone else's day in an emergency. I don't necessarily agree with Gordo, but the first time I saw it in print was in one of his manuals. vy 73, Mike Jim Abercrombie wrote: Also, in what book does it say the term break, referring to a VHF repeater, mean emergency? All of that is perfect nonsense. Jim --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
As I look at the calendar, I find myself celebrating the 50th anniversary of my first ham license. Hopefully that qualifies me to participate in this thread about MisQ's. I haven't heard anyone use QSL in lieu of Over, but I don't spend that much time on phone. The hobby needs new blood, so if we end up inheriting some old CBer's, welcome them on board and help them transition to the norms of this hobby. Without new blood, our numbers will dwindle to where the FCC will just farm out our spectrum. I do cringe a bit over terms like 10-4 good buddy, got your ears on, and I hear that. These will hopefully dissolve away over time. I would gladly tolerate the MisQ's if I could exchange them for removal of the frequency cops (up, up, up, up - one is enough), tuner upper's, or deliberate QRMer's who always know exactly where the good DXpedition operating frequencies are. It is like I am like trying to adapt to like changes that occur in our language like over time, if you get what I mean. This is still the greatest hobby out there, and it has been very good to me. I wish I could look forward to another 50 years, but that is unlikely. Stay tuned! John Owens - N7TK -- Original message -- From: Peter Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:08 AM 6/3/2008, David Yarnes wrote: You describe the problem very well. The only thing is, it's kind of like an accent. You can pick it up going in, and you tend to lose it going out. Habits are hard to break, but so long as we don't pick up on it ourselves, I think in time it will begin to fade. Personally hearing QSL instead of over doesn't bother me in the slightest, especially if the QSO is with someone who doesn't speak English very well. The more of an impediment the language barrier is the more inclined I am to follow the other op's lead; if he turns it over to me with QSL? I will use that with him if there's any doubt and if condx are marginal, etc. For stateside-to-stateside or between native English-speakers (from anywhere), I think it's silly, but to each their own. On local repeaters, though, it does grate on me, as does most other lingo when both sides are full-quieting and in-range of the repeater. When I elmer new hams I stress the importance of just speaking to other hams the same as you'd talk to non-radio friends on the phone. The one bit of cb-crap that sets my teeth on edge is on the side. Regards, Peter, W2IRT --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
Did you mean they have as in CB'ers saying 73's or hams? The misuse of 73's goes back a lot further than the advent of Citizen's Band radio. Just do a Google Image search of W1AW QSL or 1AW QSL and you'll see The Old Man himself was guilty of this faux pas. Case in point, he signed the back of his QSL card Best 73's 1AW H. P. Maxim see link to image: http://www.telegraph-office.com/pages/images/Maxim_signature.JPG Another example appears here: http://picasaweb.google.com/w8jyz.Bob/OldQSLCardsTheEarlyDays/photo#5136931525198515858 vy 73, K2CD, Mike Jim Abercrombie wrote: They have always said (although incorrectly) 73's which means plenty of best wishes. Jim Abercrombie N4JA (an original non-vanity call) ex- K4BMS --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
By my last line I meant hams as far back as I can remember. Also, one of the other terms which crept in from CB is what is your personal?. I even heard an Australian ham ask someone that question on 10 meters SSB a couple of years ago. Also we have had newbys come on a roundtable frequency trying to break in by saying QSK or CQ. I've heard both. Maybe the technician test should have one of the questions on the question pool as to the proper way to break into a QSO (another Q-signal term hi hi!). Also, in what book does it say the term break, referring to a VHF repeater, mean emergency? All of that is perfect nonsense. Jim - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone Did you mean they have as in CB'ers saying 73's or hams? The misuse of 73's goes back a lot further than the advent of Citizen's Band radio. Just do a Google Image search of W1AW QSL or 1AW QSL and you'll see The Old Man himself was guilty of this faux pas. Case in point, he signed the back of his QSL card Best 73's 1AW H. P. Maxim see link to image: http://www.telegraph-office.com/pages/images/Maxim_signature.JPG Another example appears here: http://picasaweb.google.com/w8jyz.Bob/OldQSLCardsTheEarlyDays/photo#5136931525198515858 vy 73, K2CD, Mike Jim Abercrombie wrote: They have always said (although incorrectly) 73's which means plenty of best wishes. Jim Abercrombie N4JA (an original non-vanity call) ex- K4BMS --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
He also used two Q signals on the card instead of writing it out. Kind of like a phone op speaking out HI HI instead of laughing eh? Personally, I don't have a problem with people using Q signals on phone. I just thought it interesting that it was on the scan of the card. Somehow me thinks he didn't come from the C.B. ranks. Hal NN8L - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone Did you mean they have as in CB'ers saying 73's or hams? The misuse of 73's goes back a lot further than the advent of Citizen's Band radio. Just do a Google Image search of W1AW QSL or 1AW QSL and you'll see The Old Man himself was guilty of this faux pas. Case in point, he signed the back of his QSL card Best 73's 1AW H. P. Maxim see link to image: http://www.telegraph-office.com/pages/images/Maxim_signature.JPG Another example appears here: http://picasaweb.google.com/w8jyz.Bob/OldQSLCardsTheEarlyDays/photo#5136931525198515858 vy 73, K2CD, Mike Jim Abercrombie wrote: They have always said (although incorrectly) 73's which means plenty of best wishes. Jim Abercrombie N4JA (an original non-vanity call) ex- K4BMS --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
You are the first to bring up the break thing i am a EMT in VA we use break to mean that we are done talking to one person and are starting on a new statement for some one else and some times i forget and do it on 2M and you would think it's the end of the world i had a guy dial 911 and had them on the line telling me he was ready for the break relay no sure what that even is -- 73, Camden Bullock N2CLB www.n2clb.com Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Matthew 6:34 Jim Abercrombie wrote: By my last line I meant hams as far back as I can remember. Also, one of the other terms which crept in from CB is what is your personal?. I even heard an Australian ham ask someone that question on 10 meters SSB a couple of years ago. Also we have had newbys come on a roundtable frequency trying to break in by saying QSK or CQ. I've heard both. Maybe the technician test should have one of the questions on the question pool as to the proper way to break into a QSO (another Q-signal term hi hi!). Also, in what book does it say the term break, referring to a VHF repeater, mean emergency? All of that is perfect nonsense. Jim - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone Did you mean they have as in CB'ers saying 73's or hams? The misuse of 73's goes back a lot further than the advent of Citizen's Band radio. Just do a Google Image search of W1AW QSL or 1AW QSL and you'll see The Old Man himself was guilty of this faux pas. Case in point, he signed the back of his QSL card Best 73's 1AW H. P. Maxim see link to image: http://www.telegraph-office.com/pages/images/Maxim_signature.JPG Another example appears here: http://picasaweb.google.com/w8jyz.Bob/OldQSLCardsTheEarlyDays/photo#5136931525198515858 vy 73, K2CD, Mike Jim Abercrombie wrote: They have always said (although incorrectly) 73's which means plenty of best wishes. Jim Abercrombie N4JA (an original non-vanity call) ex- K4BMS --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
The line Break, Break, Break appears in The New Technician Class FCC License Preparation, Third Edition, which contained the July 1, 1990 326 Question Pool. Gorden West, WB6NOA is credited, and it was Developed and Published by Master Publishing, Inc., and distributed by Radio Shack. I quote from page 41: 3AB-2-1-2 Why should users of a station in repeater operation pause briefly between transmissions? A. To check the SWR of the repeater B. To reach for pencil and paper for third party traffic C. To listen for any hams wanting to break in D. To dial up the repeater's autopatch ANSWER C: A repeater is like a party linethere may be others who may wish to use the system. In an emergency, stations may break in saying Break, Break, Break. Give up the channel immediately. Always leave enough time between picking up the conversation for other stations to break in. It's a pause that may refresh someone else's day in an emergency. I don't necessarily agree with Gordo, but the first time I saw it in print was in one of his manuals. vy 73, Mike Jim Abercrombie wrote: Also, in what book does it say the term break, referring to a VHF repeater, mean emergency? All of that is perfect nonsense. Jim --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Jim Abercrombie wrote: By my last line I meant hams as far back as I can remember. Also, one of the other terms which crept in from CB is what is your personal?. I even heard an Australian ham ask someone that question on 10 meters SSB a couple of years ago. Also we have had newbys come on a roundtable frequency trying to break in by saying QSK or CQ. I've heard both. Maybe the technician test should have one of the questions on the question pool as to the proper way to break into a QSO (another Q-signal term hi hi!). Also, in what book does it say the term break, referring to a VHF repeater, mean emergency? All of that is perfect nonsense. Jim Our local 440 MHz repeater is used frequently by the county ARES, which I'm a member of. We use break tags a lot during ARES activities: http://www.wa9res.org/documents/Break%20Tags.pdf The use of these has carried over to people who aren't ARES members, using the repeater in general. It's kind of refreshing! 73, Zack W9SZ --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
In the past, using the phrase break, break, break--called a triple break--was supposed to only occur in an emergency. This comes from net operating procedures mainly. Otherwise, you would just say break, break if you wanted to be recognized, but not for emergency purposes. Nonetheless, a single break is often used to request recognition. The term break, spoken only once, is also intended to indicated a separation between parts. For example, when passing a message, there will often be heard the term break after the address of the person for whom the message is intended, but prior to the actual text. The military similarly used the word break as a separator between parts. Another example is that a net control station might use the term break to clearly indicate the end of one task or communication, and the beginning of another. Net operating procedures are not all that familiar to most hams these days as there are not very many nets left. There was a time when I was very active in net operations, and there were lots of nets in which to participate. Most were run under very strict procedures. The ones I hear today are much less formal for the most part. Perhaps the MARS nets still in operation are run more formally, but only a handful of others seem to retain that kind of net discipline. But net operations used to be primarily for the purpose of passing traffic, whereas now most of them are just a regularly scheduled event where people show up, and perhaps take their turn at a short, informal transmission. So, I don't think the documented procedures have necessarily changed, but the actual practice of these procedures has moderated substantially. Dave W7AQK - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jim Abercrombie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone The line Break, Break, Break appears in The New Technician Class FCC License Preparation, Third Edition, which contained the July 1, 1990 326 Question Pool. Gorden West, WB6NOA is credited, and it was Developed and Published by Master Publishing, Inc., and distributed by Radio Shack. I quote from page 41: 3AB-2-1-2 Why should users of a station in repeater operation pause briefly between transmissions? A. To check the SWR of the repeater B. To reach for pencil and paper for third party traffic C. To listen for any hams wanting to break in D. To dial up the repeater's autopatch ANSWER C: A repeater is like a party linethere may be others who may wish to use the system. In an emergency, stations may break in saying Break, Break, Break. Give up the channel immediately. Always leave enough time between picking up the conversation for other stations to break in. It's a pause that may refresh someone else's day in an emergency. I don't necessarily agree with Gordo, but the first time I saw it in print was in one of his manuals. vy 73, Mike Jim Abercrombie wrote: Also, in what book does it say the term break, referring to a VHF repeater, mean emergency? All of that is perfect nonsense. Jim --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
RE: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
Well, for one thing, QSL means received and understood whereas OVER means back over to you which are not the same thing. Regardless, use of the Q signals has crept into voice communications for longer than almost any of us have been alive. And... when communicating on voice with someone who doesn't speak your language, but understands Q signals, they do come in handy, regardless of the communications mode in question! I don't know why we keep arguing over silly things like this... 73 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of LA5HE Ragnar Otterstad Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 5:27 AM To: dx-eu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone T his reminds me: Why are new hams using QSL instead of OVER ? The Q-code was made for telegraphy to save time and avoid language confusion. ! 73 RAG Ragnar Otterstad LA5HE JW5HE OZ8RO Located in Telemark - Home of skiing. For more information about Telemark take a look at : http://en.telemarkreiser.no/ From UK: Has anyone out there got a copy of Standard Radio Procedures ? The reason I ask is that the police (I work in a police control room) are introducing what they call 'Airwave Speak' which is being adopted by police forces nationally. The grandly titled 'National Police Improvement Agency' has come up with a definitive list of words which are classed as good procedure, i.e 'OVER' 'STAND BY' 'ACKNOWLDGE' 'NEGATIVE' etc.. the usual stuff. However, they have binned for some unknown reason 'ROGER' and replaced it with 'RECEIVED' and have also brought in 'PLEASE' 'SORRY' and 'THANK YOU' amongst other changes! No, this is not april 1st. This is genuine. Although it will standardise terminology used by all police forces they have omitted to consult the armed forces who also have access to 'Airwave' and I believe have missed an opportunity to standardise Radio Procedures amongst ALL emergency services with whom we are supposed to be able to work if the proverbial you know what hit the fan. If I could get hold off or even print out from some internet site a definitive copy of CORRECT Radio Speak I intend to make my disapproval known. SORRY? THANK YOU? ... give me strength! Mick Martin --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
It appears to me that the use of Over, Standby, Please, Sorry, etc. fall right in line with the Incident Command System (ICS) and National Incident Managament System (NIMS) adopted by emergency comunications personnel in the USA. These systems urge the use of common, plain wording in message communication. I have never used QSL? to replace Over. I HAVE heard it done and it irks me too. 73, Zack W9SZ On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, LA5HE Ragnar Otterstad wrote: T his reminds me: Why are new hams using QSL instead of OVER ? The Q-code was made for telegraphy to save time and avoid language confusion. ! 73 RAG Ragnar Otterstad LA5HE JW5HE OZ8RO Located in Telemark - Home of skiing. For more information about Telemark take a look at : http://en.telemarkreiser.no/ From UK: Has anyone out there got a copy of Standard Radio Procedures ? The reason I ask is that the police (I work in a police control room) are introducing what they call 'Airwave Speak' which is being adopted by police forces nationally. The grandly titled 'National Police Improvement Agency' has come up with a definitive list of words which are classed as good procedure, i.e 'OVER' 'STAND BY' 'ACKNOWLDGE' 'NEGATIVE' etc.. the usual stuff. However, they have binned for some unknown reason 'ROGER' and replaced it with 'RECEIVED' and have also brought in 'PLEASE' 'SORRY' and 'THANK YOU' amongst other changes! No, this is not april 1st. This is genuine. Although it will standardise terminology used by all police forces they have omitted to consult the armed forces who also have access to 'Airwave' and I believe have missed an opportunity to standardise Radio Procedures amongst ALL emergency services with whom we are supposed to be able to work if the proverbial you know what hit the fan. If I could get hold off or even print out from some internet site a definitive copy of CORRECT Radio Speak I intend to make my disapproval known. SORRY? THANK YOU? ... give me strength! Mick Martin --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
Many if not most of new hams are graduates of the CB ranks. While I'm glad that they discovered ham radio, I'm also irked that they brought their vocabulary and procedures with them. Things like Got a copy?, I'll be on the side, How much power are you throwing?, you've got Bill here, and many other expressions are learned on 27 MHz and not forgotten after they pass a ham exam. They use QSL as a question, meaning do you acknowledge? Of course, they usually should say over or go ahead on phone. We learned a different set of rules and standards but these ex CBers are filling the ranks. I hear them every day and even though many are good folks, I surely would wish they would leave their CB ways at the door as they enter our fraternity. 74, Bob W1YRC - Original Message - From: LA5HE Ragnar Otterstad To: dx-eu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 5:27 AM Subject: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone T his reminds me: Why are new hams using QSL instead of OVER ? The Q-code was made for telegraphy to save time and avoid language confusion. ! 73 RAG Ragnar Otterstad LA5HE JW5HE OZ8RO Located in Telemark - Home of skiing. For more information about Telemark take a look at : http://en.telemarkreiser.no/ From UK: Has anyone out there got a copy of Standard Radio Procedures ? The reason I ask is that the police (I work in a police control room) are introducing what they call 'Airwave Speak' which is being adopted by police forces nationally. The grandly titled 'National Police Improvement Agency' has come up with a definitive list of words which are classed as good procedure, i.e 'OVER' 'STAND BY' 'ACKNOWLDGE' 'NEGATIVE' etc.. the usual stuff. However, they have binned for some unknown reason 'ROGER' and replaced it with 'RECEIVED' and have also brought in 'PLEASE' 'SORRY' and 'THANK YOU' amongst other changes! No, this is not april 1st. This is genuine. Although it will standardise terminology used by all police forces they have omitted to consult the armed forces who also have access to 'Airwave' and I believe have missed an opportunity to standardise Radio Procedures amongst ALL emergency services with whom we are supposed to be able to work if the proverbial you know what hit the fan. If I could get hold off or even print out from some internet site a definitive copy of CORRECT Radio Speak I intend to make my disapproval known. SORRY? THANK YOU? ... give me strength! Mick Martin --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
Bob, You describe the problem very well. The only thing is, it's kind of like an accent. You can pick it up going in, and you tend to lose it going out. Habits are hard to break, but so long as we don't pick up on it ourselves, I think in time it will begin to fade. If we don't acknowledge it by making the same statements ourselves, eventually our methodology will prevail. In the meantime, we all will have to wince a little each time we hear it. Hopefully, though, we will hear it less and less. It's awfully easy to spot a former CBer, just like it's easy to spot someone from Alabama or Boston. The folks from Alabama or Boston won't change because they are still talking to people from Alabama and Boston most of the time. But the ex-CBer is now talking to us, and will get retrained over time. But we tend to adopt various things ourselves. I find it curious how certain phrases in ham radio get started. One that comes to mind is the operating conditions here are. What started that? Did that come from CB? I sure don't remember it from years gone by. But in the last few years I've heard it a lot. It sure is a lot easier to just say the rig here is. Dave W7AQK - Original Message - From: Bob Beaudet To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone Many if not most of new hams are graduates of the CB ranks. While I'm glad that they discovered ham radio, I'm also irked that they brought their vocabulary and procedures with them. Things like Got a copy?, I'll be on the side, How much power are you throwing?, you've got Bill here, and many other expressions are learned on 27 MHz and not forgotten after they pass a ham exam. They use QSL as a question, meaning do you acknowledge? Of course, they usually should say over or go ahead on phone. We learned a different set of rules and standards but these ex CBers are filling the ranks. I hear them every day and even though many are good folks, I surely would wish they would leave their CB ways at the door as they enter our fraternity. 74, Bob W1YRC - Original Message - From: LA5HE Ragnar Otterstad To: dx-eu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 5:27 AM Subject: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone T his reminds me: Why are new hams using QSL instead of OVER ? The Q-code was made for telegraphy to save time and avoid language confusion. ! 73 RAG Ragnar Otterstad LA5HE JW5HE OZ8RO Located in Telemark - Home of skiing. For more information about Telemark take a look at : http://en.telemarkreiser.no/ From UK: Has anyone out there got a copy of Standard Radio Procedures ? The reason I ask is that the police (I work in a police control room) are introducing what they call 'Airwave Speak' which is being adopted by police forces nationally. The grandly titled 'National Police Improvement Agency' has come up with a definitive list of words which are classed as good procedure, i.e 'OVER' 'STAND BY' 'ACKNOWLDGE' 'NEGATIVE' etc.. the usual stuff. However, they have binned for some unknown reason 'ROGER' and replaced it with 'RECEIVED' and have also brought in 'PLEASE' 'SORRY' and 'THANK YOU' amongst other changes! No, this is not april 1st. This is genuine. Although it will standardise terminology used by all police forces they have omitted to consult the armed forces who also have access to 'Airwave' and I believe have missed an opportunity to standardise Radio Procedures amongst ALL emergency services with whom we are supposed to be able to work if the proverbial you know what hit the fan. If I could get hold off or even print out from some internet site a definitive copy of CORRECT Radio Speak I intend to make my disapproval known. SORRY? THANK YOU? ... give me strength! Mick Martin --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
The Z signals are military, and are/were not intended for use in commercial services. The Q signals are of course used in commercial services, and also in the military. Both sets of signals are periodically updated in ACP-131, at this link - http://www.jcs.mil/j6/cceb/acps/ACP131F.pdf 73, de Hans, K0HB Master Chief Radioman, US Navy -- * http://www.home.earthlink.net/~k0hb - Original Message - From: Norm Gertz To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: 6/3/2008 2:34:03 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone In past years the military and commercial high speed operations used Z signals in their procedure; no Q signals. --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
At 11:08 AM 6/3/2008, David Yarnes wrote: You describe the problem very well. The only thing is, it's kind of like an accent. You can pick it up going in, and you tend to lose it going out. Habits are hard to break, but so long as we don't pick up on it ourselves, I think in time it will begin to fade. Personally hearing QSL instead of over doesn't bother me in the slightest, especially if the QSO is with someone who doesn't speak English very well. The more of an impediment the language barrier is the more inclined I am to follow the other op's lead; if he turns it over to me with QSL? I will use that with him if there's any doubt and if condx are marginal, etc. For stateside-to-stateside or between native English-speakers (from anywhere), I think it's silly, but to each their own. On local repeaters, though, it does grate on me, as does most other lingo when both sides are full-quieting and in-range of the repeater. When I elmer new hams I stress the importance of just speaking to other hams the same as you'd talk to non-radio friends on the phone. The one bit of cb-crap that sets my teeth on edge is on the side. Regards, Peter, W2IRT --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
There are two distinct systems involved here. The Q signals have always been as listed; some operators twisted their meanings just like slang; this still continues. In past years the military and commercial high speed operations used Z signals in their procedure; no Q signals. The phonetic alphabet is another matter however. The military uses phonetics based on an international system to enhance joint operations among different countries. There is no confustion whatsoever among military operators when it comes to phonetics. The police departments historically have used their own phonetics; sometimes originated by the speaker on the spot. Today its not unusual to hear a police officer using names of states for phonetics. There will always be some who are different. Norm K1AA - Original Message - From: Bob Beaudet To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone Many if not most of new hams are graduates of the CB ranks. While I'm glad that they discovered ham radio, I'm also irked that they brought their vocabulary and procedures with them. Things like Got a copy?, I'll be on the side, How much power are you throwing?, you've got Bill here, and many other expressions are learned on 27 MHz and not forgotten after they pass a ham exam. They use QSL as a question, meaning do you acknowledge? Of course, they usually should say over or go ahead on phone. We learned a different set of rules and standards but these ex CBers are filling the ranks. I hear them every day and even though many are good folks, I surely would wish they would leave their CB ways at the door as they enter our fraternity. 74, Bob W1YRC - Original Message - From: LA5HE Ragnar Otterstad To: dx-eu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 5:27 AM Subject: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone T his reminds me: Why are new hams using QSL instead of OVER ? The Q-code was made for telegraphy to save time and avoid language confusion. ! 73 RAG Ragnar Otterstad LA5HE JW5HE OZ8RO Located in Telemark - Home of skiing. For more information about Telemark take a look at : http://en.telemarkreiser.no/ From UK: Has anyone out there got a copy of Standard Radio Procedures ? The reason I ask is that the police (I work in a police control room) are introducing what they call 'Airwave Speak' which is being adopted by police forces nationally. The grandly titled 'National Police Improvement Agency' has come up with a definitive list of words which are classed as good procedure, i.e 'OVER' 'STAND BY' 'ACKNOWLDGE' 'NEGATIVE' etc.. the usual stuff. However, they have binned for some unknown reason 'ROGER' and replaced it with 'RECEIVED' and have also brought in 'PLEASE' 'SORRY' and 'THANK YOU' amongst other changes! No, this is not april 1st. This is genuine. Although it will standardise terminology used by all police forces they have omitted to consult the armed forces who also have access to 'Airwave' and I believe have missed an opportunity to standardise Radio Procedures amongst ALL emergency services with whom we are supposed to be able to work if the proverbial you know what hit the fan. If I could get hold off or even print out from some internet site a definitive copy of CORRECT Radio Speak I intend to make my disapproval known. SORRY? THANK YOU? ... give me strength! Mick Martin --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
- Original Message - From: Norm Gertz To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: 6/3/2008 2:34:03 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone In past years the military and commercial high speed operations used Z signals in their procedure; no Q signals. Norm, Here, from ACP-131 is the explanation of who uses Q and Z operating signals. 73, de Hans, K0HB -- * http://www.home.earthlink.net/~k0hb PURPOSE 101. The purpose of this publication is to list operating signals and provide instructions for their use. GENERAL 102. This publication includes: a. Operating Signals from the following series of international civil Q code: (1) The series QAA to QNZ inclusive, the meanings of which are assigned by theInternational Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). In general, the only civil stations that will have available a copy of this series are those of the Aeronautical Service. Therefore, this series is not to be used with other civil stations unless it is known that the station concerned is familiar with the series. (Note: Stations of the Aeronautical Service are those operated in accordance with ICAO international standards and recommended practices to provide for the safety of air navigation and for the regular, efficient and economical operation of the air services). (2) The series QOA to QQZ inclusive is reserved for the Maritime Services. (3) The series QRA to QUZ inclusive, the meanings of which are assigned by the International Telecommunications Union (ITU). In general, all civil stations will have available a copy of this series. Therefore, this series may be used with all civil stations unless the station concerned indicates its unfamiliarity with the series. (4) The series QVA to QZZ inclusive has not been allocated to date. b. Operating signals from the series ZAA to ZXZ inclusive of the allied military Z code. The series ZYA to ZZZ inclusive is reserved for the temporary or permanent assignment of meanings on an intra-military basis by any nation, service or command authorised use of this publication. For the convenience of assigning authorities, provision for this series (ZYA - ZZZ) is included in Chapter 5 of this publication. --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
The Q signal list referred to by Hans is quite extensive--more so than probably ever used by amateurs. In fact, some don't correspond to the ones we use. The QN's are a case in point. That sequence is used by amateurs for net operation. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see QRRR on the list, which I think is supposed to be the amateur equivalent of SOS. But most people probably don't even know that. Z signals were the only ones we used when I was in the army. As an army radio school instructor (primarily teaching CW), I had to commit most of those firmly to memory, even though very few were ever used much. But much like my modest ability to speak german, I have forgotten most of them due to lack of use. It was interesting going back over the list, something I haven't done for a long time. The phonetic alphabet is indeed a Duke's mixture these days. Having been licensed before military service, I initially used the old version you hear in WWII movies. The military, however, had definitively adopted the newer version when I entered the service, and has similarly been adopted as the official version for amateur use. Interestingly, telemarketers and product support people seem to have adopted it too! But you frequently hear a lot of country names used, like England rather than echo. I know that, on occasion, I slip back to the old phonetic alphabet because sometimes my wife will jokingly refer to me as Dog Able Victor Easy! Also, when she knows I've been operating my radio she like to kid me by saying How's the skip?. Obviously she abides my ham radio activity, but isn't all that impressed with it! Dave W7AQK - Original Message - From: K0HB To: Norm Gertz ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone The Z signals are military, and are/were not intended for use in commercial services. The Q signals are of course used in commercial services, and also in the military. Both sets of signals are periodically updated in ACP-131, at this link - http://www.jcs.mil/j6/cceb/acps/ACP131F.pdf 73, de Hans, K0HB Master Chief Radioman, US Navy -- * http://www.home.earthlink.net/~k0hb - Original Message - From: Norm Gertz To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: 6/3/2008 2:34:03 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone In past years the military and commercial high speed operations used Z signals in their procedure; no Q signals. --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] Radio Procedure-on phone
My 2c worth. Looks like everybody got different trigger points or words that trigger people. One guy on our 2 meter repeater gets triggered by multiple 73 ( like: 73s ) Lou KE1F / ZF2XY Peter Dougherty wrote: At 11:08 AM 6/3/2008, David Yarnes wrote: You describe the problem very well. The only thing is, it's kind of like an accent. You can pick it up going in, and you tend to lose it going out. Habits are hard to break, but so long as we don't pick up on it ourselves, I think in time it will begin to fade. Personally hearing QSL instead of over doesn't bother me in the slightest, especially if the QSO is with someone who doesn't speak English very well. The more of an impediment the language barrier is the more inclined I am to follow the other op's lead; if he turns it over to me with QSL? I will use that with him if there's any doubt and if condx are marginal, etc. For stateside-to-stateside or between native English-speakers (from anywhere), I think it's silly, but to each their own. On local repeaters, though, it does grate on me, as does most other lingo when both sides are full-quieting and in-range of the repeater. When I elmer new hams I stress the importance of just speaking to other hams the same as you'd talk to non-radio friends on the phone. The one bit of cb-crap that sets my teeth on edge is on the side. Regards, Peter, W2IRT --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
