[e-gold-list] What Non-Au metals look like

2002-05-06 Thread James M. Ray


On Monday, May 6, 2002, at 01:06 AM, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:

 ...
 OK, I got the data (atomic structure and crystal lattice) for them.
 That was the easy part. The hard part stems from the fact that I
 really do not exactly know what platinum and palladium look like.
 ...

Thanks, Adam. Pd and Pt both look  silvery with Pd being a
bit duller, maybe, but not much. Pd looked most like 304 grade
stainless steel to me (I used to weld the stuff) in one bar I saw,
another bar I saw once had concentric circles and an old Soviet
hammer  sickle on it, but both weren't immediately impressive,
unless you knew what they were. I think this is a good job, the
Pt and silver (Ag) should probably be a tiny bit shinier, I guess.

The problem with non-gold metals -- and maybe a reason why
they're less-popular -- is that they pretty-much ALL look silvery,
and it's hard in some cases to distinguish Pt coins from Pd ones
of the same type, unless the mint marked them when striking. I
think your guess is pretty good, thanks!
JMR


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[e-gold-list] Biometrics and e-gold

2002-05-06 Thread Steven T. Cramer

E-Gold is a great concept and solution to the fiat money system.  How can
it be improved and made more widely adopted?

Biometrics is a tool that can greatly improve privacy.  But like any tool
can also be used in a destructive manner.  LetÂ’s focus on the positive
here and then think about ways to prevent the negative.

With a Biometric Point of Sale system one could easily accept e-gold and
the end user would not feel as concerned about the theft of his or her
password.  Given the current system one would have to enter their account
number and password and a spying eye, from say a security camera, could
monitor the keystrokes and steal such a password.

A finger print is much more difficult to steal.  And with the cost of a
Biometric system nearing $50 one could easily justify the cost based on
the savings from normal CC transaction fees.

Any ideas on this?

Is there a group of e-gold users that have formed a united marketing
strategy?

Do any e-gold personnel 

Steve

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[e-gold-list] RE: Wal-Mart to accept E-Gold??

2002-05-06 Thread Steve Renner


 Subject: RE: Wal-Mart to accept E-Gold??
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:29:43 -0500
 X-Message-Number: 1
 

People are spending e-gold at Wall Mart all the time 
with their Cash Card. Works at Wallgreens too!


Yours in Success,

Steve Renner, Founder
Cash Cards International, Ltd
Basseterre, St.Kitts West Indies

US Exchange Offices:
250 Second Ave S #110
Minneapolis, MN 55401
PH: (612) 333-3893
FX: (612) 673-0883

~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.cashcards.net

~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:



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[e-gold-list] The color of platinum

2002-05-06 Thread G. Adam Stanislav

Now I have a platinum image, but again, I have never seen
platinum in real life, so someone who has, please tell me
if I got the color/finish right, so I can submit it:

http://www.goldcowboy.com/temp/platinum.jpg

Thanks,
Adam

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[e-gold-list] Mbox.com.au

2002-05-06 Thread Michael Moore

www.mbox.com.au  is currently down as they have suffered storms which have
interfered with their servers

This means I have been unable to access my mbox or gold-today.com emails.
which routes to mbox.

If you have sent any emails to those two addresses please be patient which
mbox works on restoring the service.

Thank you  :)


Kind regards,

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
A Member of the Gaithman Group of Companies
An Accredited Founding Member of the
eCurrency Trade Association Inc
http://www.gold-today.com

The only man who never makes a mistake is the man who never does anything.
- Theodore Roosevelt



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[e-gold-list] Automated egold to osgold exchange

2002-05-06 Thread promoter

Can anybody direct me to an exchange site with automated egold to osgold and
viceversa??

thanks
marco


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[e-gold-list] Pleanty of Gold for Everyone!

2002-05-06 Thread Eric Wilson

Yes...that is right: www.quickmetal.com and www.e-forexgold.net have pleanty
of gold for everyone, at a 4% flat fee for select countries!

I wanted to take this chance to let everyone know that www.quickmetal.com
and www.e-forexgold.net have teamed up (or rather have been teamed up) to
provide you with many options to fund your digital currency account or to
exchange between digital currencies.

Right now, we are offering a flat fee of 4% on all buy orders when buying
e-gold, OSGold, and e-bullion from the U.S., U.K., and Australia.  If you
need rate information for other countries, please view our websites for
details.

We are also exchanging digital currencies for low fees.  For a limited time
you can exchange e-gold to OSGold for 0%, and we are offering e-gold to
EVOCash, and OSGold to EVOCash for only 1%.  For other currency exchanges,
please see our websites.

We will be glad to buy your digital currency from you and pay you in
national currency.  Also, our new and popular debit cards are still
available.  Our debit cards are completely anonymous and you can fund them
with e-gold, OSGold, EVOcash, e-bullion, GoldMoney, Technocash, or WebMoney.

We deal in all digital currencies and have bank accounts in 18 different
countries.

We invite anyone and everyone to surf over to our websites.

Thanks for your time, and best wishes to you and your's.

http://www.e-forexgold.net/
http://www.quickmetal.com/
Becuase you need your gold Now!

Eric Wilson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1 (662) 719-7189


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[e-gold-list] Re: The color of platinum

2002-05-06 Thread Patrick Chkoreff

5/6/2002 2:55:31 AM, G. Adam Stanislav [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Now I have a platinum image, but again, I have never seen
platinum in real life, so someone who has, please tell me
if I got the color/finish right, so I can submit it:

http://www.goldcowboy.com/temp/platinum.jpg

Thanks,
Adam


Adam:

Platinum coins are much more shiny and lustrous than your picture shows.  Of 
course, any proof coin is going to have a mirror finish, but personally I 
would advise making your platinum picture much more shiny.  I guess I would 
say make it look like gold, but without the yellow.  :-)

-- Patrick



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[e-gold-list] Re: The color of platinum

2002-05-06 Thread James M. Ray

On Monday, May 6, 2002, at 09:22 AM, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:

 ...
 Platinum coins are much more shiny and lustrous than your picture shows.

...

One Oz. Platinum Eagles have both mirror-shiny and satin finishes on them,
and they are widely considered one of the most beautiful US coins ever 
struck.
I sure think so, and I'm into coins! (Of course, the ultimate is a St. 
Gaudens!)

The problem is that aside from gold and copper (that I can think of anyway)
most metals are probably best described as 'silvery.' Hmm. And both gold 
and
copper are known to occasionally appear in pure or almost-pure form 
naturally,
though I don't know what that weird factoid has to do with anything.
JMR


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[e-gold-list] Re: The color of platinum

2002-05-06 Thread Jay W.

Platinum coins are much more shiny and lustrous than your picture shows.

some people aren't aware that google lets you search images:

http://images.google.com/

if you enter
platinum coin
in the search box you'll see lots of eagles and other platinum coins.

fwiw, i'd agree with jray, the platinum eagle is the sharpest modern coin
i've seen, but the IOM noble is close behind.

e-gold is elemental money, including platinum:
http://fastsci.com/?100998-.02-g-PT


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[e-gold-list] Re: The color of platinum

2002-05-06 Thread Patrick Chkoreff

5/6/2002 11:07:34 AM, James M. Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The problem is that aside from gold and copper (that I can think of anyway)
most metals are probably best described as 'silvery.' Hmm. And both gold 
and
copper are known to occasionally appear in pure or almost-pure form 
naturally,
though I don't know what that weird factoid has to do with anything.
JMR


Fascinating observation.  Gold and copper are both yellowish, yet one is rare 
and the other is common.  Nobody ever finds a silver or platinum nugget, but 
they do find gold and copper nuggets.

Indeed, why would gold and copper, with atoms that absorb a lot of blue light, 
be more likely to occur in pure form than silver and platinum, with atoms that 
reflect blue light?

I bet there is some relation, albeit indirect.  Perhaps there's an underlying 
physical property that causes BOTH nuggetization and yellowness.  :-)

-- Patrick



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[e-gold-list] Re: The color of platinum

2002-05-06 Thread Patrick Chkoreff

5/6/2002 2:55:31 AM, G. Adam Stanislav [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Now I have a platinum image, but again, I have never seen
platinum in real life, so someone who has, please tell me
if I got the color/finish right, so I can submit it:

http://www.goldcowboy.com/temp/platinum.jpg

Thanks,
Adam


Here's another way to put it.  I think the platinum in your picture looks too 
much like aluminum.  Even if you go with the satin finish, you need more 
lustre and sheen.

-- Patrick




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[e-gold-list] Re: Stealing names stuff ...

2002-05-06 Thread Ian Green

Just because someone registers a domain name with GoldNow in it does not 
give one the right to every other domain name with GoldNow in it. Also I 
disagreed with e-gold's domain name demands that a year or two ago caused a 
South African exchange provider to change his domain and business name. 
There was no confusion of identity in that case, and there is none in this 
case.

I don't expect to be able to cause any of the many domains containing ao 
to change their name, even though some people occasionally ask me for 
Internet access services or misdirect email for these companies or their 
customers to my domain! They don't purport to be me and I don't purport to 
be AOL or AON or AOC or any other domain containing AO. My registration of 
ao.com.au long predates these other registrations in the com.au namespace, 
but I don't complain to them.

Even closer, ao.com is owned by a company called Alpha Omega Computers in 
the United States. I most certainly would have liked that domain, but they 
had registered it years before the Internet went commercial in Australia. 
Although the only difference in the domain names are the country code, and 
the only difference in corporation name is the jurisdiction under which it 
was created, I do not expect any conflict with the other Alpha Omega 
Computers. They don't purport to be me and I don't purport to be them. Any 
confusion is unintentional, and there is no legal or moral reason for one 
to bully the other.

I also would not contemplate challenging the owner of iangreen.com for his 
domain name, although:
   a)  I was on the Internet first
   b)  I know a lot more about the Internet than that other Ian Green (and 
maybe more than all of them!)
   c)  It is conceivable that a sufficiently gullible person may assume 
that this Ian Green and iangreen.com are one and the same (which is not the 
case).
because
   i)  He is not purporting to be me, even though his given and surname 
name are the same as mine.
   ii) I could have registered iangreen.com myself earlier, but chose not to.
   iii)I have no right to complain against another Ian Green or indeed 
anyone else who might have registered that domain name.

I'd prefer not to have to criticize the only participant on this list I've 
met (because I would like to remain on friendly terms with Graham), but it 
is clear that AnyGoldNow.com (and indeed GoldNow.com) do not damage Graham 
Kelly's GoldNow.st business, nor does Graham have property rights over the 
name or any of the components of the name.

The proper course of action is for both parties to accept each other's 
presence in the industry regardless of the name of their businesses! Any 
continued public complaints simply serve as advertising for the other.

Ian Green
http://two-cents-worth.com/?107242EG
www.107242.clicktwocents.com
e-gold estas monda mono! [Esperanto]
e-gold is world money! [English]


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[e-gold-list] reputation

2002-05-06 Thread Ian Green

Talk about damaging a business! Every time an exchange provider promotes 
osgold or evocash or some such thing, trying to get people to give them 
perfectly good e-gold or GoldMoney for them, THAT does incredible damage 
both to the credibility of the exchange provider and to the credibility of 
the entire digital gold currency industry!

You would not want e-gold to be associated with floos or beans or paypal, 
so why promote ANY currency that is set up by unknown persons and with 
unknown backing and talk about them AS IF they were on a par with reputable 
gold currencies?!

(Conflict of interest and a lack of moral fibre is the only explanation I 
can identify. One should always be prepared to recommend the best solution 
for your customer even if that means doing yourself out of some short term 
profit!)

Ian Green
http://two-cents-worth.com/?107242EG
www.107242.clicktwocents.com
e-gold estas monda mono! [Esperanto]
e-gold is world money! [English]


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[e-gold-list] Re: Biometrics and e-gold

2002-05-06 Thread Patrick Chkoreff

5/5/2002 10:25:19 AM, Steven T. Cramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

With a Biometric Point of Sale system one could easily accept e-gold and
the end user would not feel as concerned about the theft of his or her
password.  Given the current system one would have to enter their account
number and password and a spying eye, from say a security camera, could
monitor the keystrokes and steal such a password.

A finger print is much more difficult to steal.  And with the cost of a
Biometric system nearing $50 one could easily justify the cost based on
the savings from normal CC transaction fees.

Any ideas on this?


Interesting idea, but you'll get lots of resistance from people who distrust 
the government, and also from Christians, who have a good point when they say 
at some point you will not be able to buy or sell without the mark.  Just 
imagine what the government could do to you by simply turning off your 
ability to buy groceries.

We need something that identifies your ACCOUNT without identifying YOU.

I think we need to migrate toward something like the Cryptocard technology.  
This is basically the one-time pad cipher method, in which no permanent 
passwords are involved.

Imagine that you have a piece of plastic called an e-gold card (or 1mdc, 
goldmoney, e-bullion, whatever).  You swipe this card through the point-of-
sale terminal and enter the card's 4-digit pin number.  Perhaps your e-gold 
account number is stored on the card; perhaps not.  If not, then you enter 
your e-gold account number, too.

The POS terminal then sends your e-gold account number, the purchase amount, 
and the store's e-gold account number to the e-gold Point-of-Sale Server.  
The e-gold server makes up a random number and issues it as a challenge to 
the card.  The card runs the challenge number through some strenous 
mathematical formulas unique to that card, producing a response number.  The 
POS terminal then resends the purchase details, along with the challenge-
response pair, to the e-gold server.  If everything looks kosher, the e-gold 
server makes the spend.

With this technology, even someone watching the whole event on a surveillance 
camera does not have enough information to make fraudulent charges to your 
account.  He might know your pin and even your account number, but without the 
physical card to map a challenge into a response, he is sunk.

Even if the POS terminal had fraudulent SOFTWARE (i.e. a virus) installed on 
it, it would not help a digital thief get your money.  The e-gold server would 
issue a new challenge each time, and without the card there is no way to come 
up with the correct response.

I think this is much better than fingerprints.  Who knows?  Eventually someone 
might come up with a way to counterfeit your fingerprint.  They could simply 
lift a print off your car door handle and transmit the print to some nifty 
thin-film printer.  Then they wrap this film around their index finger and 
help themselves to your funds.

In fact, I almost wish some black hat would invent this technology just so we 
could nail down the coffin lid on this fingerprint idea once and for all.  ;)  
I suppose the biometrics people would then counter with GSR (galvanic skin 
response) detection, and the black hats would counter back with a new sweaty 
oily film, etc. etc. like Spy vs. Spy.  But I really can't think of 
anything that could counter the one-time pad technology.  Then again, I'm no 
expert on security.  Any ideas?

Regards,
Patrick Chkoreff





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[e-gold-list] EGold to Ebullion

2002-05-06 Thread shupperd1

We have some extra EB and so we will exchange  Egold to Ebullion for free if
anyone needs this service today.

Spend to our egold 157585   in the memo put your Ebullion account #   then
send us an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]we will do the transfer within an
hour

Thank You

James Shupperd


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[e-gold-list] Re: Biometrics and e-gold

2002-05-06 Thread jpm


Imagine that you have a piece of plastic called an e-gold card (or 1mdc,
goldmoney, e-bullion, whatever).  You swipe this card through the point-of-
sale terminal and enter the card's 4-digit pin number.  Perhaps your e-gold
account number is stored on the card; perhaps not.  If not, then you enter
your e-gold account number, too.


I agree thats the way to do POS for IGs, IMHO, Patrick



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[e-gold-list] Re: reputation

2002-05-06 Thread Eric Wilson

I thought I might respond to this.

It may indeed be true that e-gold and GoldMoney have credibility and
verification that other DGC's just don't have.  Personally, I would not feel
comfortable putting my money into a currency that would not discolse the
how's or why's of their operation.  I would complete due diligence on any
investment, so a DGC would be no different.

However, my website still deals in OSGold and EVOCash.  To say that it
damages a business and hurts the credibility of the company offering it, I
believe is an unfair statement.

When someone comes to my website, and asks for OSGold or EVOCash, I am
giving them what they want.  I give them their OSGold or EVOCash.  If they
had come to my website and asked for e-gold or GoldMoney, I equally would
have given them e-gold or GoldMoney.  Why my customer chose a given currency
over another, or what they choose to do with that currency after they
recieve it from me, is none of my business.  Part of the appeal of DGC's is
the partial anonymity.

There is a need to supply people with these currencies, and I help fill the
void.  I do not promote one over the other, or push one over the other.  My
website clearly says that we deal in all digital currencies, and indeed we
do.

Now, it may appear that I am pushing OSGold over e-gold, becuase of a
reduction in exchange fees, but that is simply not the case.  We have a
surplus of OSGold right now and we are willing to part with it for e-gold at
0% to even out the ammount of each currency we have on hand.  Now, if that
is a conflict of intrest or a lack of moral fibre, than I guess I still
don't understand.

http://www.quickmetal.com/
http://www.e-forexgold.net/

Eric Wilson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1 (662) 719-7189




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[e-gold-list] PayPalGoldNow debit card

2002-05-06 Thread Graham Kelly

Guys,

We can now accept a PayPal payment for the purchase of the GoldNow anonymous
debit card. $50 until 1st June. (then $99)

My PayPal account is [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Please note that this applies to the purchase of the debit card. Any
future funding is via GBC or cash.

PS This is an anonymous card. However, I need YOUR real name, address,
and phone number,  email address.

Funding is also free from GoldMoney and/or e-gold. Check my site...
https://www.goldnow.st/debit_card_order.asp

Cheers!

Graham Kelly CEO
GoldNow Corporation http://www.GoldNow.St
US FreeFax +1(866)302-5775
US Phone +1(817)238-9955
Direct Dial +371 781-4090 (Latvia), ask for GoldNow Admin.

Apply for your GoldNow anonymous debit card, now! This will let you transfer
your gold into cash! See my site for details.
 

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[e-gold-list] RE: PayPalGoldNow debit card

2002-05-06 Thread Fidex Marketing

 
 PS This is an anonymous card. However, I need YOUR real name, address,
 and phone number,  email address.
 

We can offer an anonymous card... it costs $25 more but we do NOT need
to know anything except a name and address for delivery (an email
address would be useful but is not obligatory)

Regards
Nick
http://e-fidex.com




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[e-gold-list] Platinum poster

2002-05-06 Thread G. Adam Stanislav

Thanks for everyone's input on the look and feel of platinum.
I have spent all day today trying to make it look right, and
finally decided not to do it. It just makes no sense to try to
create an image of something I have never seen.

I'll stick with gold. I have seen plenty of that in my life. :)

Adam

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[e-gold-list] Interview With a Thief - New Planet Gold Interview

2002-05-06 Thread Ragnar

Hear ye, Hear ye!

Read all about it.

Interview With a Thief is the latest interview available on:

http://planetgold.com

http://planetgold.com



__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Interview With a Thief - New Planet Gold Interview

2002-05-06 Thread jpm

Hear ye, Hear ye!

Read all about it.

Interview With a Thief is the latest interview available on:

http://planetgold.com

incredible!  We want part 2 !

that's amazing!




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[e-gold-list] Last banking entities for sale!

2002-05-06 Thread Banker


Montenegro bank:
---
Type of licence: A-licence.
Activites allowed: All kind of banking operations, offered to the public
(see below for details). Capital requirement: 10.000 US$.
Price: 85.000 US$.

Swedish Credit Union:

Type of licence: Excempt from licence requirement, if services are offered
to members only. Maximum of  1000 members. Activities allowed: Can take
deposits (may offer all types of accounts, certificates, bonds and other 
banking instruments) and give loans to members. Capital requirement: None.
Price: 45.000 US$.

Nauru Bank:
--
Type of license: B-licence ('in-house' bank). A Nauru in-house bank is
prohibited from dealing with  anybody other than associated companies and
individuals. Therefore the Bank can not raise deposits from  the public.
Activities allowed: All kind of operations, as long as the bank only
services the 'associated  companies'.
Capital requirement: 100.000 US$.
Price: 25.000 US$.

DETAILS OF MONTENEGRO LICENCE:
=

The activities of the company is rendering banking and other financial
services outside Yugoslavia  including the following: 1. acceptance of all
kinds of money deposits (deposit transactions) 2. granting and taking
loans (credit transactions), 3. exchange, foreign currency and foreign
exchange transactions, 4. issuance of securities and credit cards 5.
safekeeping assets and securities, and managing them, purchase and sale of
securities, 6. issuance of sureties of various kind (guarantee
transactions) 7. mediation in securities dealing 8. payment operations
(opening of the accounts for legal entities and natural persons and
?nostro? and  ?loro? accounts), and 9. rendering other financial services

We recommend Montenegro as the first choice (because of the comprehensive
scope of the license,  together with the low capital requirement), the
Swedish Credit Union being the second best. We have only a few Montenegro
banks left, if you are interested we can complete the transaction in a 
very short time.

Please indicate which bank you prefer, and I will give you all details
needed for the purchase  (documents included, documentation and signatures
needed from you), and for your due diligence (for the
purpose of independent validation of our offer).

Kind Regards

Yuri Bulovich
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[e-gold-list] e-Currency Trade Association - the cat is out of the bag

2002-05-06 Thread Ragnar

I guess the cat is out of the bag.

 On another matter, there have also been numerous public
 postings alluding to
 the creation of a copycat eCTA style organization. Personally,
 I think that
 working within the eCTA, the existing organization, is a much
 better and
 positive way to go.

Why is that a better and positive way to go?  For whom? Another
way to go is to wait a few weeks and see whether the GDCA
(Global Digital Currency Association) is a better alternative or
not.  If it is not, then, and only then, would going with the
eCTA be a better and positive way to go.

Further, there is nothing copycat about the GDCA.  In fact, I
submit that the eCTA will be doing most of the copying once the
GDCA launches. Mark my words.

 The bottom line is, that we do not need another organization,

The facts contradict that statement.

Further, I may be incorrect, but there is usually nothing wrong
with choice and competition. In fact, competition is, indeed, a
positive and better way to go. One of anything is usually bad
in a market economy.  Or perhaps you thought the eCTA was going
to gouge the market makers with $250 annual fees forever? ;)

Regards,

Ragnar
Chairman, GDCAonline.com
editor, Planetgold.com
editor, Libertyimpact.com

=
Liberty Impact!

Check out this free, hard-hitting weekly newsletter about
privacy, liberty, offshore banking, tax avoidance  digital currencies.

http://www.libertyimpact.com

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[e-gold-list] The eCTA? No thanks

2002-05-06 Thread Tristan Petersen

On another matter, there have also been numerous public postings alluding to
the creation of a copycat eCTA style organization. Personally, I think that
working within the eCTA, the existing organization, is a much better and
positive way to go. Creation of another organization would only confirm any
public feeling about lack of professionalism in the industry, create
confusion for the public and would simply demonstrate that we cannot agree
to forge ahead for the betterment of all with a united purpose. having half
a dozen associations would simply show a Mickey mouse approach. Hardly
conducive to an industry striving to display a professional and responsible
face to the financial world

...

Words spoken by a true politician. Sorry, Mike.

Suppose we were to apply the above concepts to the cambist industry. Do
we need only one cambist because if we don't have just one, all the
customers suddenly become confused? Further, why should one even
suggest to speak for a group, especially that group called consumers,
since it is they who decide what they want and not you. Businesses exist
to serve their customers, and not the other way around. Only that breed
of animal (not human) called politicians decide for their customers what
they want. I'm sure I don't need to explain how well that works, here.

I have one more comment about the eCTA. It has become very apparent to
me, and I'm sure others, that the eCTA's only function is political in
nature. GBH will not join any such group that engages in political
squabble and racketeering.

Regards,
Tristan


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[e-gold-list] Re: The eCTA? No thanks

2002-05-06 Thread Patrick Chkoreff

5/6/2002 7:41:42 PM, Tristan Petersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Suppose we were to apply the above concepts to the cambist industry. Do
we need only one cambist because if we don't have just one, all the
customers suddenly become confused?

Interesting you bring this up, Tristan.  I have heard from some otherwise 
intelligent people that they looked into gold currencies but when they saw all 
the stuff about cambios their eyes glazed over.

You know what?  The heck with them.  Life is confusing sometimes.  Buying a 
car is confusing.  If you don't want to be confused when you buy a car, you 
can move to India where they only make the Hindustan.  I understand they're 
actually pretty solid cars.

PC



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