[e-gold-list] Re: Exchange between GoldMoney and e-gold!

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 01:32 AM 9/4/2002 +1000, Ian Green wrote:
>>0.1% (one TENTH of a percent)* on ALL exchanges!!
>>
>>http://metal-escrow.com/c_c.cfm
>
>On attempting to exchange e-gold to GoldMoney I see that Metal Escrow has 
>very little GoldMoney for exchange to e-gold (which would enable people 
>with e-gold to buy GoldMoney).
>
>Who else is able to exchange GoldMoney for e-gold at such great rates? I 
>think with the recent fees restructure at GoldMoney the direction for all 
>of the big money is towards GoldMoney, however, maybe there could be a lot 
>of small balances transferred in the opposite direction?

Interesting!  It always used to be the other way around, both at Metal 
Escrow and Cambist.net.  They always seemed to have a great deal more 
GoldMoney than e-gold, and now it's reversed at both sites.

It might not mean anything profound, but I've never seen a GM/EG ratio less 
than 1 before.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: MD Raffle for nice rifle accepts e-gold

[Patrick Chkoreff]

>Thanks, JP! Hey, I forgot to mention, but you can
>also win cool stuff at ANOTHER pro-gun site that
>takes e-gold: http://www.citizensofamerica.org/ ...

Thanks for the reminder about COA, Jim.  I had almost forgotten about 
them.  It's great that they take e-gold!  I just pitched in a gram.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: debit cards and popular branding ...

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Jonathan wrote:
>I know that there are plenty of Maestro based cash cards,
>but these are not the same. Any market makers moving
>towards a branded debit card? I'd love to earn in e-gold
>and flush the funds into an account that can be used to
>purchase things online from most major vendors ...

Or use a regular credit card and pay it off using e-gold.  I've had Omnipay 
send checks to my credit card company, but it seems like there'd be a more 
direct, digital way of doing this.  Are there any exchange agents out there 
who issue direct credits to your card in exchange for gold?

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: New Planet Gold Interview - Direct-Action

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 03:03 PM 9/10/2002 -0400, Fred Michaelis wrote:
>My great grandfather was a gun-smith living at Round Top Texas during the
>end of the war between the states.  At the end of the war, the Yanks came
>to his ranch to kill him ...

>E-gold is anonymous.  So is the auction I hold power of attorney for.  The
>transactions happen offshore so even I do not have access to who is doing
>what on the Zauction Offshore Inc. Web Site.  If they put bamboo spikes
>under my nails I still coundn't tell the feds anything.

You sure know how to tell a story, Fred!  Even though it's non-fiction, you 
have plot and character development, denouement, the whole literary 
kit-and-kaboodle.  :-)

That was great!

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: New Planet Gold Interview - Direct-Action

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Bryan Allerdice:
>Am I the only one who finds spelling mistakes extremely annoying, and an
>absolute turn off when it comes to solicitations for goods or services?

No, you're not the only one.  I got so caught up in the good story line I 
didn't bother mentioning the numerous spelling errors.  Good spelling 
indicates conscientiousness and discipline, and bad spelling often 
indicates the opposite.  Careful, Fred!

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Tip Jars

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 09:26 PM 9/12/2002 +, Sidd wrote:
>Fred you're a hoot! [LOL]
>
>You should have a http://2cw.org link on your e-mails.
>
>: "heirloom," not "air loom,"?

The guy does tell a funny story even though his spelling's atrocious.  :-)

I recommend that we all put our tip jars at the bottom of every 
email.  Some of us are loathe to do it because it looks like were trollin' 
for tips for even the stupidest little comment and that's embarrassing.  So 
everybody should just do it every time!

Come to think of it, Bryan Allerdice didn't even put his tip jar links on 
his latest security update!

-- Patrick

http://fexl.2cw.org
http://fexl.clicktwocents.com





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[e-gold-list] RE: Tip Jars

[Patrick Chkoreff]

>I don't have a 2cw account or link or whatever the right term is.
>
>Perhaps I should get one. Nobody pays me until it's too late usually.
>
>Thanks for the idea Patrick.
>
>BRYAN


It's probably easier than you think.  I don't think you have to "sign up" 
unless you want a specialized name like I have ("fexl").

You can just slap down these links, using your account numbers:

http://2cw.org?306260&EG(for e-gold)
http://2cw.org?500654T&GM(for goldmoney)

-- Patrick





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[e-gold-list] Re: Maybe they're winning

[Patrick Chkoreff]

>Jonathan
>P.S. - PayPal is not winning the race. They won the race!
>Why do you think Ebay bought them, and not E-Gold?

The first time I saw Paypal I figured it would be pretty successful because 
it had that nice happy conventional white-bread look and attitude, kind of 
like an AOL, Microsoft, or Disney.  That stuff really sells, though 
personally I don't find it attractive.  I like the strong stuff.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Maybe they're winning

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Patrick wrote:
> > The first time I saw Paypal I figured it would be pretty successful
>because
> > it had that nice happy conventional white-bread look and attitude, kind of
> > like an AOL, Microsoft, or Disney.  That stuff really sells, though
> > personally I don't find it attractive.  I like the strong stuff.

JP wrote:
>that's very astute!

David Hillary wrote:
>very well said Patrick. Remember, however that strong stuff can and does
>become conventional white bread stuff.

Bryan Allerdice wrote:
>Millions of dollars will buy you any image you want. It will also result
>in a company that takes plenty more years, of ever, to actually make
>money.


I think JP's May Scale of Monetary Hardness works against the widespread 
use of internet gold.
http://interestingsoftware.com/mayscale.html

I'm not saying it's a death sentence for gold, but it's a simple fact of 
nature that it's difficult to go "uphill" on the monetary hardness 
scale.  People have to go out of their way to climb that hill.  Once you're 
up there, the view is great though.

Bryan also makes a good point.  E-gold, Goldmoney, and E-Bullion have not 
spent huge sums on advertising.  The result is lower market share but 
actual profits in hand now.

A friend of mine read an excellent book that talked about this strategy of 
growing a web business up on its own merits, with steady increases in 
profitability and market share, instead of through massive force-feeding of 
venture capital.  I forgot the title, but when I get it I'll let you all know.

Perhaps Paypal and E-Gold are both growing exponentially, but Paypal's 
growth function has been multiplied by a constant factor of 20 due to 
massive advertising and incentives.  On the surface that makes e-gold's 
growth curve look relatively humble.  But in the long run only the 
exponential factor matters.  If E-gold can maintain a higher exponent than 
Paypal, it will overtake Paypal regardless of any initial constant multiplier.

Now the question is:  can they do it?  From what Doug Jackson was saying at 
the Gold Economy Conference in Atlanta, it appears that the international 
market may be one key.  After all, gold is money in any nation.  You can't 
say that about a Paypal based on the decomposing dollar and US banking 
system.  How much growth in Paypal usage can you expect in Argentina and 
China?  Answer:  zero.  How much growth in e-gold usage can you expect in 
those areas?  Answer:  a lot.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Maybe they're winning

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Patrick wrote:
>A friend of mine read an excellent book that talked about this strategy of 
>growing a web business up on its own merits, with steady increases in 
>profitability and market share, instead of through massive force-feeding 
>of venture capital.  I forgot the title, but when I get it I'll let you 
>all know.


OK, it was "Under The Radar," by Arnold Kling.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: just a sapling

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 06:02 PM 9/18/2002 -0400, Kenneth C. Griffith wrote:
>Dave Brooks makes an excellent point.  The gold economy is like a sapling in
>a forest of oak trees.Very little light gets down to the forest floor
>because the big oaks shade it out.
>
>Right now we are putting out a root system.  The sapling doesn't look like
>much but the network is developing.
>
>When a hurricane comes along and knocks down the oak trees sunlight will
>reach the forest floor.


This reminds me of the Peter Sellers movie "Being There", where he played 
the character of Chauncey Gardener.  :-)  Everything he said was a 
gardening analogy.

The big difference is, Ken Griffith actually knows what he's talking about 
and is not just blowing smoke.   :-)

Funny you used the oak tree analogy.  A couple of days ago a friend of mine 
mentioned "golden acorns."

Please forgive my rambling.  My wife just made me a stiff margarita.  :-)

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: A Hacker nearly go me...This is a Neighborhood watch report

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 06:15 PM 9/19/2002 -0400, Fred Michaelis wrote:
>It has been a wild day, gang.
>
>I opened up my hotvoice Email to find what looked like a message from
>E-gold.  It had a very authenic look about it.  It said that some of my
>information in my personal section was incorrect  and must be corrected
>imeatately.  The email even had a place where I could sign into my account
>directly from the E-mail.  How convenient.

Fred!  Either I missed something or you forgot to mention that you changed 
your password.  You DID change your password, didn't you?

Also, never, EVER log into any gold account from an email form, and NEVER 
log into a website that you reached by clicking a LINK in an email.

-- Patrick
P.S.  You did change your password, didn't you?  :-)


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[e-gold-list] Re: A Hacker nearly go me...This is a Neighborhood watch report

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 06:26 PM 9/19/2002 -0400, uberhacker wrote:

>As Triumph the Insult Comic Dog would say...
>
>"The Gold Economy needs more people like you... for me to poop on."

LOL!  Ah yes, Triumph is by far the funniest canine on the planet.  Too bad 
you couldn't convey his unique Hispanic accent in your email.  :-)

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: why paypal wins and e-gold not.....

[Patrick Chkoreff]

JP wrote:
>Right, there will never be an easy way to 'change between'  USD and egold.
>
>They are different currencies.   there will never be an easy wayto change 
>between USD and Euros or between USD and Canadian dollars.


That's primarily because of the lack of a firm, reliable, non-repudiable, 
instantaneous payment system in national currencies, right?  The problem is 
not that they're national currencies, but that the payment system is 
inadequate, am I right?

Bryan mentioned Australia's BPay.  If BPay is as solid as Bryan suggests, 
it sounds like a market maker might be able to set up an automated exchange 
between Australian currency and e-gold, similar to Metal-Escrow.com and 
Cambist.net.

Of course, BPay may not have the automation features you need for this, but 
it sounds like Bryan is suggesting that BPay is low risk for market 
makers.  In other words, you could receive a BPayment and feel completely 
confident in spending gold in return, knowing that the payment was real and 
non-repudiable.

Is that true, Bryan?

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Why would anyone need Pay Pal?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 04:21 PM 9/20/2002 -0400, George Matyjewicz wrote:

>Me thinks we need something similar to check cashing services.

I think you're onto something there, George.  You have to "be the bank," 
figuratively or maybe someday even literally.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Why would anyone need Pay Pal?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 04:31 PM 9/20/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>There IS NO WAY, and there will never be a way, for it to be "easy" to 
>convert from national currencies to GOLD
>
>(Here's why:
>http://interestingsoftware.com/mayscale.html )
>
>It will not, cannot and never will be easy.

I didn't say it would ever be easy.  I'm just wondering if it can be easier 
than it is today.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Why would anyone need Pay Pal?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

JP wrote:
>>There IS NO WAY, and there will never be a way, for it to be "easy" to 
>>convert from national currencies to GOLD
>>
>>(Here's why:
>>http://interestingsoftware.com/mayscale.html )
>>
>>It will not, cannot and never will be easy.

Patrick wrote:
>I didn't say it would ever be easy.  I'm just wondering if it can be 
>easier than it is today.


Let me pose a specific scenario.

Imagine how cool it would be if I could tell an employer to direct-deposit 
my paycheck into a certain "bank," and unbeknownst to my employer the funds 
would actually go to a market maker acting "as" a bank who would then dump 
gold into my account.

I mean, we're kind of getting there with Gaithman's and other MM's ability 
to direct deposit funds into their accounts and receive gold in 
return.  All we need is a direct deposit route.

Sure, the funding of your gold account would not be "easy" for the market 
maker.  He would definitely have to confirm receipt of funds, wait the 
proper number of days, acquire new bars, and all the hard stuff implied by 
the May Scale.  It's just that HE'D have to do it, not YOU.  :-)   :-)

-- Patrick




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[e-gold-list] Re: why paypal wins and e-gold not.....

[Patrick Chkoreff]

>A customer can buy money orders and send it to us overnight mail and get
>funding of their gold account. That is less than 48 hours.
>
>- John Kyle

Yep.  Just 89 cents at Publix supermarkets.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: why paypal wins and e-gold not.....

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 08:41 AM 9/21/2002 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>telephone? it was meucci..
>cars? I thought it was a German, Benz..
>fax? Scottish...
>
>Or maybe you guys make confusion between 'inventing' and 'making/selling'??
>Maybe you better stick to CocaCola, McDonald's etceheheeh

That, and also inventing:

> >aircraft, spacecraft, broadcasting, television, film,
> >records, tape, the transistor, laser printers, hard drives, networks,
> >ethernet, wireless, satellites, gps, cellfones, photocopiers,
> >polaroids, ccds, lasers, microwaves, fiber optics,  post-it notes,
> >GUIs, mouse, cable tv, PGP, barcodes, plastic, petrol, kerosene,
> >ceramics, carbon fibre, leds, calculators, atomic bombs, atomic
> >power, franchizing, containerization, MLM, revolovers and cartridges,
> >4x4s, and the light bulb.

Also, the "making/selling" of practical telephone networks and 
mass-produced cars and faxes.

Oh yeah, and the McDonald's sausage, egg, and cheese McMuffin!   :-P

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Why would anyone need Pay Pal?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Patrick wrote:
> >Let me pose a specific scenario.
> >
> >Imagine how cool it would be if I could tell an employer to direct-deposit
> >my paycheck into a certain "bank," and unbeknownst to my employer the funds
> >would actually go to a market maker acting "as" a bank who would then dump
> >gold into my account.

John Kyle wrote:
>We basically do this right now. We have customers who have told their
>employers to deposit a portion of their paycheck every pay cycle directly
>into our account via ACH. Then we later credit that person's e-gold
>account.

That rocks.  It doesn't get much easier than that!

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] let's get some FACTS

[Patrick Chkoreff]

>>>(3) WHAT actually happened -- did the judge DISMISS, or STAY the case
>>
>>The judge chose to dismiss the case without prejudice, which is more than 
>>what we asked for.

James:

The original story 
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?artid=23394669 says 
that "It [e-gold] ... said it succeeded in getting a patent infringement 
action brought by GoldMoney dismissed by a US District Court in New York."

Now you're saying that outcome was more than you asked for, so I take that 
to mean it's a good thing for GoldMoney.

So both e-gold and GoldMoney are just elated that the case was 
dismissed.  Is this an example of the Keith Richard's school of 
litigation?  :-)

http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/fontova/fontova3.html

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] let's get some FACTS

[Patrick Chkoreff]

>  the Keith Richard's school of litigation ...

Correction:  the Keith Richards school of litigation.


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[e-gold-list] Re: Dismissed without Prejudice

[Patrick Chkoreff]

>Don't tell me JMP is allowed to post anything he feels! Now is the time to 
>kick him and his 1mdc out of e-gold:-)

Oh yeah, major crisis here -- JP uses a naughty word!

Relax.

PC


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[e-gold-list] Re: Request for comments: Prevent data entry errors

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 08:25 PM 9/28/2002 -0400, uberhacker wrote:

>Much like DNS poisoning in the current world, I foresee a similar tactic
>being used by hackers if such a system were to be put into place.
>
>Add to that the fact that whoever was in charge of this scheme has the
>potential to steal loads of money, since they would be able to trick
>people into thinking they are spending to an account which they weren't.
>...

I agree.  Names would get tricky and people would be easily deceived.  It's 
bad enough that we have e-qold.com (with a Q) and the like.

In a system like e-gold where accounts are numbered serially it is 
imperative that the spender always check the account name before confirming 
the spend.  Otherwise if he makes one little error he spends to the wrong 
account.  When I tell someone to spend to my account number, I always say 
"in the name of Patrick Chkoreff," assuming he'll be conscientious enough 
to check.

A Goldmoney account number ends in a letter which looks to me like a check 
sum similar to the letter at the end of an ISDN book number.  I am not 
certain of this, but it does appear that way.

Credit card numbers also have a built-in check sum redundancy with a 
well-known validation algorithm.  (I've written that code on two separate 
occasions.  :-)

I think for most purposes if you have a checksum that can detect "one wrong 
digit" and "transpose two digits" you're doing great.  That coupled with 
the account name popping up on the screen should prevent most erroneous spends.

I wonder if e-gold has many problems with erroneous spends, given that 
their account numbers do not have a checksum.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Request for comments: Prevent data entry errors

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 07:44 PM 9/28/2002 -0700, uberhacker wrote:
>Perhaps there is merit in the idea of a DGC implementing the DNS-style idea,
>which I'd prefer to call an Account Alias.

Goldmoney has this.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Scheduled e-gold down time

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Just a reminder that e-gold has a scheduled outage today from 6:00 - 10:00 
pm Eastern Time.  That starts about 15 minutes from now.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] UUNET (was: Pecunix website...)

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 11:02 PM 10/4/2002 +, Sidd wrote:

>svgisp wrote:
> > Takes a long time to perform transactions...is that the price of advance
> > security?
>
>Nope, see George's post earlier about WorldCom...

Definitely!  I have had some terribly slow times connecting to servers 
lately, even those hosted by entirely separate companies.  My primary 
hosting company confirmed that it was a uunet problem.  Results from 
tracert (the trace-route program) showed abysmally slow hops out there on 
the big pipes.

On Thu 3 Oct 2002 at about 01:30 Eastern time, the problem suddenly cleared 
up.  My hosting company said:

>Looks like uunet was having some problems. We're triple homed here (OC3's
>with uunet, savvis and sprint) so bgp probably picked up a better path at
>some point. :)

-- Patrick  


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[e-gold-list] Re: Business Idea

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 10:27 AM 10/9/2002 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Guys,
>
>I am a lover of all kinds of music and I am not able to find any online 
>merchants accepting e-gold for CDs. Will someone please take my advice and 
>start doing this. It might also be a good idea if you will ship worldwide 
>since e-gold is worldwide.

Use http://www.bananagold.com.  You can spend e-gold, 1mdc, or 
Goldmoney.  I bet they ship worldwide but I'm not 100% certain.

I just bought a CD at Bananagold yesterday, by the way.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Business Idea

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 10:35 AM 10/9/2002 -0400, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:

>Use http://www.bananagold.com.  You can spend e-gold, 1mdc, or 
>Goldmoney.  I bet they ship worldwide but I'm not 100% certain.

Well I scrolled down the page a bit and it's quite clear they ship worldwide.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Business Idea

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 10:44 AM 10/9/2002 -0400, James M. Ray wrote:

>... Over $80 million was spent by Napster not-getting this idea
>before they died, so it's definitely yet-another pile of money on the
>ground, waiting for somebody to pick it up, IMO. ...

Yes, I always thought Napster was committing suicide and needlessly 
antagonizing the artistic community by not implementing some kind of 
mini-payment system.  The artists could get a huge cut and not be 
indentured servants to the record companies.  It would probably only take 2 
or 3 cg per download.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Business Idea

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 11:20 AM 10/9/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>>... The artists could get a huge cut and not be indentured servants to 
>>the record companies.
>
>Geez, what is this ... communist day?

Let's see, what did I describe?  Artists would produce music, own music, 
sell direct to the market, bypass the "RIAA quintopoly" (thanks JMR), and 
get a huge cut.  Sounds like private property, competition, and creative 
destruction to me.  Definitely not communism.

>Whoever owns the music, owns the music, end of story.

In my scenario the artists would own the music, end of story.

>The "artists" are nothing, they can all be replaced in five 
>minutes.  They're of little more importance than minor actors in movies, 
>so what?  Architects and builders don't own buildings .. building owners 
>own buildings.

In my scenario an artist would be architect, builder, and landlord.

The record company is merely a marketing vehicle.  It can be replaced in 
five minutes.  In my scenario an artist could own the music and strike a 
deal with a record company to market the music.  Record companies would 
still serve an important purpose and thrive accordingly.

My wife is a manufacturer's representative for women's accessories.  The 
manufacturers design, produce, and own the products.  My wife markets them 
to retailers and collects a commission.  It works fine.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Business Idea

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 04:45 PM 10/9/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> From http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/napster.htm
>
>>the legal protection of a monopoly
>
>"monopoly" is a synonym for "property".

I think you're talking about one's personal "monopoly" power over one's own 
property, and I would agree with you there.  But if you're using the word 
"monopoly" in the wider sense of sole power over an entire market, I must 
disagree with you.

Ayn Rand asserted that monopolies in the latter sense of the word can only 
be maintained by coercion and therefore cannot arise under laissez-faire 
capitalism.  She meant government coercion primarily, but  I would 
generalize that to include coercion from any powerful gang.

So the next time you feel undiluted admiration for a large enterprise, keep 
in mind that their size may be due in large part to government regulations 
and subsidies designed to stifle competition.

Many of us who are critical and skeptical of big businesses may be tarred 
for using socialist "code words," when in fact we are critical and 
skeptical precisely because we are die-hard laissez faire anarcho-capitalists.

So screw Starbucks -- buy Capulin!  

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 05:01 PM 10/23/2002 +0300, Danny Van den Berghe wrote:


Offering reversible payment does not destroy the integrity of a currency.
If a merchant chooses to accept reversible payment, it is his decision.

This is the second big mistake GBC have made.
They try to make their profit as soon as the client enters the door.
It is much better to make money while he is already in the shop or when he
leaves the place.



Thanks for these excellent and cogent comments, Danny.  You've got me thinking.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 10:08 AM 10/23/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

IG systems are meant to be *monies* in the same way that USD and Euros are 
moneys.

Reversible payments in e-gold or goldmoney makes little sense.

It would be like having "reversible US dollars"

Credit cards are, of course, something that *OPERATES WITH* US 
Dollars.  Indeed, in the future, if e-gold is really popular there will be 
credit cards that operate with e-gold.
...

Yes, credit and money are two different things.

Reversible payments are a form of credit.  The merchant ships you the goods 
because he believes you will not reverse the payment.  That belief is 
credit.  The word "credit" derives from the Latin "credere," meaning to 
believe or trust.

Money does not require belief, trust, or credit.  When the merchant 
receives money (e.g. e-gold), the transaction is settled as far as he is 
concerned.

Danny makes a good case that purchasers want credit in the form of 
reversible payments.  Merchants are willing to extend that credit to drum 
up more business and establish their integrity.  Ultimately the merchants 
want money (e.g. e-gold), but in the meantime they are willing to take a 
calculated risk.

If you can devise financial systems that will satisfy both the purchasers 
and the merchants, you will make a pile of money.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 11:10 AM 10/23/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

...Merchants (who are just people too) may give the big finger to pussy 
customers who are indecisive.

(Funnliy enough, I just realized Bananagold is like this ... NO 
refunds.  I, say, just can't be bothered dealing with pussy consumers who 
dunno what "action" is.)

I believe ultimately this will make for a BETTER tighter type of merchant, 
as ultimately there is no room for everything-means-nothing slop.  A 
merchant that did do something "bad' would be more catastrophically 
punished for it; consumers would be much more choosy.

Intriguing!  Serving the customer is one thing, but prostitution is going a 
bit too far, eh?  :-)  Bad analogy though, because as I understand it the 
prostitute demands her money up front.  So I've heard.  :-)

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Gold Credit Card

[Patrick Chkoreff]

(This is a fairly long email -- in my opinion the most interesting part is 
at the very end where I address JP's  gold credit card idea.  Scan down if 
your time is limited.)


At 11:55 AM 10/23/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've failed to see throughout this thread how e-gold spends aren't
reversible. Wanna reverse a spend? Spend it back to the spender!
Presto! Your spend is reversed, and each party is only out the low
spend fees.



that's an outstanding point Jim  *doh* !


Yes, but the reversal is the merchant's decision, not the purchaser's.



What we're talking about instead is *repudiable* payments.


Good word.  So a repudiable payment is one that can be reversed by a 
purchaser's decision.


Right ... a system like "credit cards" offers this ability.

Since "credit cards" work perfectoly and there's no need to reinvent the 
wheel, I believe eventually credit cards will just add "e-gold" to the 
currencies they handle.

Sure.  Just PayPal away and flash your plastic.  Then pay it off in e-gold 
using existing market makers.

This easy answer does of course avoid Danny's central point, which is to 
attack the barriers to entry to DGCs.  Problem is, this collides head-on 
with the May Scale of Monetary Hardness.

I suppose a DGC could conceivably implement a repudiable transaction if 
they put their minds to it.  But what would it gain them?  Would it gain 
them customers?  Maybe.  Would it gain them trouble?  Probably.  I'm not sure.

But Danny is correct to question why a purchaser would be motivated to pay 
a premium to a market maker to purchase hard money just for the privilege 
of making payments that he cannot repudiate.  :-)

Perhaps a DGC would be wise to stick to its role as a final settlement 
vehicle, and just say tough cookies to the, uh, kitty cat customers that JP 
describes.

The benefits of using a DGC are then limited and clear.  Anybody who has 
used the traditional banking and checking system to transfer "final" funds 
will see the advantage immediately.

For example, if there were no credit card system and every purchase had to 
be funded by bank wire or mailed check, millions of purchasers would 
immediately migrate lock stock and barrel into the DGC world.

But there is a credit card system, so the kitty cats stay away from DGCs in 
droves.

JP nails the problem squarely on the head when he talks about credit card 
companies accepting payment in e-gold.  The reason that example is so 
brilliant is that it's a perfect case of where final settlement is DEMANDED 
and only hard money will suffice.  Generally speaking you cannot pay your 
credit card bill with a credit card.  The only exception is balance 
transfers, but that just defers the time of final settlement.  All credit 
card debts must eventually be resolved in one of two ways:

1.  A final nonrepudiable payment.
2.  Default through bankruptcy or refusal to pay

SO, it is conceivable that someone could start a credit card company 
TOMORROW that took payment in NOTHING BUT e-gold.  Their expenses would be 
lower because they would not have to accept any mailed payments, wait for 
checks to clear, etc.  They would also have NO mailed 
statements.  Therefore, they would not have to hire or create a giant 
clearing house to handle all that paper.  Their paperwork and risk would be 
ENORMOUSLY reduced.

That gives the company a HUGE competitive edge.  They can now charge MUCH 
LOWER interest rates than Mastercard etc.

The result?  People flocking to e-gold in DROVES.

But before that happens, WalMart has gotta price things in ounces (or 
atoms!) of gold...

Screw WalMart.  Do the gold credit card.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Gold Credit Card

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 11:55 AM 10/23/2002 -0600, Mike McNamara wrote:

At 1:42 PM -0400 10/23/02, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:


SO, it is conceivable that someone could start a credit card company 
TOMORROW that took payment in NOTHING BUT e-gold.  Their expenses would 
be lower because they would not have to accept any mailed payments, wait 
for checks to clear, etc.  They would also have NO mailed 
statements.  Therefore, they would not have to hire or create a giant 
clearing house to handle all that paper.  Their paperwork and risk would 
be ENORMOUSLY reduced.

chop


I think that you make an excellent point Patrick!  I would also think 
however that a tremendous amount of credit card company dollars are used 
in the pursuit of recovering delinquent payments.  Recovering such funds 
in the IG world would probably be much harder given that the IGCC 
(Internet Gold Credit Card!) company probably would not be able to get 
e-gold to freeze someone's account based on the fact that they're owed 
money.  I believe that say Visa and Mastercard can fairly easily have your 
bank account frozen or put a lien against it, etc. if they're owed 
substantial money.

Just a consideration!

Beautiful!  Can you say "secured credit card"?  :-)

So the credit card company says, sure enough Joe Blow we'll give you a 
credit card with a 100gg limit.  Just spend 50gg into our escrow account 
and we'll have it right out to you!

Or if you think Joe Blow is a really serious credit risk, just require him 
to put up the entire 100gg as security deposit.

For excellent credit risks such as Mike McNamara and Patrick Chkoreff, we'd 
get a card with a 5 kilo limit and no security deposit.  The issuer would 
think to themselves "hey, come on, what's the likelihood of Mike McNamara 
or Patrick Chkoreff defaulting?"  Sure if it happens and they can't talk 
some sense into us they'd be out maybe 5 kilos tops, but that's no big deal 
considering they had profits last year of 10 metric tons.  :-)

With dynamic risk assessment models, they could eventually trickle any 
security deposit back to the customer as he establishes a better credit 
history.  Eventually the company could figure what the hell the guy put 
down a 50gg security deposit but we've already made 100gg in interest 
payments from him over the last few years, so he can just have the whole 
deposit back.  We're covered!

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Gold Credit Card

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 02:21 PM 10/23/2002 -0400, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:
...

With dynamic risk assessment models, they could eventually trickle any 
security deposit back to the customer as he establishes a better credit 
history.  Eventually the company could figure what the hell the guy put 
down a 50gg security deposit but we've already made 100gg in interest 
payments from him over the last few years, so he can just have the whole 
deposit back.  We're covered!


Oh and by the way Mike, observe that this secured credit card option 
requires NO government intervention.  No federal government seizing bank 
accounts.  Hell, we don't even need the E-gold "government" to seize e-gold 
accounts in this scenario!

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Gold Credit Card

[Patrick Chkoreff]

With dynamic risk assessment models, they could eventually trickle any 
security deposit back to the customer as he establishes a better credit 
history.  Eventually the company could figure what the hell the guy put 
down a 50gg security deposit but we've already made 100gg in interest 
payments from him over the last few years, so he can just have the whole 
deposit back.  We're covered!

Mike:

This could even go in the opposite direction!  When a customer starts 
missing payments or paying late on a regular basis, you could send him an 
email asking that in addition to his regular payment, he also put up an 
extra security deposit to be held in escrow.  That's the penalty for 
erratic payment!  If you want the deposit back, just start paying regularly 
again!

It's all probabilities and incentives.  No force involved, ever.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Gold Credit Card

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 01:32 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


the only possible problem with this is .. isn't it rather "getting rid 
of" credit cards?!?

You're essentially saying "the issuance of credit cards currently is a 
bloody shambles, with an IG credit card, it would have to be much tighter"

Most people are such scum financially (sorry, people of the world!) that 
they CAN'T EVEN get together such an in-advance amount.

Hey JP, in the traditional credit card world those very same people are 
also unlikely to have that much in their bank account when it finally gets 
seized.  :-)  Yet Mastercard continues to serve them.

So maybe there's a sweet spot you can find in the probability curve.  We'll 
give out unsecured cards to scum and charge them enough interest to 
compensate for the 30% of scum who default on us.

That interest rate, by the way, may be significantly lower than the 24% 
usury demanded by MasterCard now.  Perhaps our company is so efficient that 
we can actually make scads of money giving unsecured cards with a 15% rate 
to scum with a 30% default rate!

Or not, as the case may be.  In which case we let MasterCard have the scum 
market and they can continue to clip them for 24%.  Meantime we take the 
solid citizen market by storm.


Indeed, that's exactly what CCs thrive on right?


Partially!  So why can't we thrive on those people too?  :-)  Why can't we 
be bottom-feeding scum suckers just like the big guys?  :-)  Let's clip 
them for 15% and do them a favor in the process!


(It's a bit like those "check cashing!" businesses that are in every small 
town ... "cash your pay check 2 days ahead of time for only 12% interest!" 
... and other such businesses that cater to the walking financial shambles 
that is the populace)

Those are profitable businesses.  They love every schmuck who walks through 
their doors.


In fact, perhaps what you're REALLY saying here is the slackness of credit 
cards AS IT EXISTS would probably have to be done away with altogether if 
everything was based on IG and not USD :O

And that's --- good!

SOME of the slackness perhaps.  Or maybe we just look at it this way:

1.  MasterCard makes money at 24% on unsecured scum cards with a default 
rate of 30%

2.  JPCard makes money at 15% on unsecured scum cards with a default rate 
of 30%

OK, let's do it!  Bring on the scum!


I think the main thing I'm trying to do is address "Danny's Dilemma" 
head-on.  I state it as a sarcastic question:

"Why would a purchaser pay a premium to a market maker to purchase hard 
money just for the privilege of making payments that he cannot repudiate?"

The answer is:  no reason whatsoever.

The second part of this issue is what we might call "E-Gold's Envy":

"Why is PayPal so damn successful?"


Frankly I don't think the issue of repudiable payments enters most people's 
minds.  All they know is this:  hey wow all I have to do is open a PayPal 
account, link up my credit card, and I'm off to the races!

That's it -- the entire extent of the thinking of well over 10 million 
PayPal customers.

So why would those people use the JPCard?  Because instead of paying 19% on 
their existing credit cards, they can get the same benefits with a JPCard 
at only 9%!  The only catch is this:  they have to pay a small premium to a 
market maker to acquire e-gold.  :-)  But just think of the interest savings!

PLUS, once they get into the game they'll start to find more people with 
e-gold accounts and they'll start trading with each other 
directly.  Eventually people won't have to go to a market maker, they'll 
simply EARN some e-gold directly!

In fact, they could freakin' LINK their JPCard INTO their PayPal 
account!!  So we totally co-exist.  In fact, we end up WISHING PAYPAL 
SUCCESS, if you can imagine that.

Or maybe we do a "digital only" credit card (just a number -- no plastic) 
so that initially you can only use it online.  That way as we get off the 
ground and raise capital we have extremely low fulfillment expenses -- we 
don't have to contract with Total Systems to print and mail plastic!  That 
may actually turn out to be OUR ENTIRE BUSINESS -- we could just 
perpetually offer a no-plastic, no-paper, no-post-office online credit card 
with a super-low rate of just 5%.


SO, instead of trying to convert the scum market into a disciplined bunch 
of hard money people, you should instead focus on exploiting their 
weaknesses to your advantage!  That is, ASSUMING the business model can 
truly work.  The question of course is simply this:  is there money in it?

But of course, I don't have to tell that to JP, of all people!

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] How to Log Into Your E-gold Account

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 05:55 AM 10/18/2002 -0700, Suanlian Tombing wrote:


It seems that someone might be trying to capture  your
password/passphrase when you click the button.


There is only one really safe way to log into your e-gold account.  Follow 
these five steps:

1.  Bring up a new browser window.
2.  Type "e-gold.com" in the browser Address field and press the Enter key.
3.  When the e-gold page comes up, click "Access Your Account."
4.  When the login page comes up, check for the little lock icon at the bottom.
5.  Enter an account number, password, and the Turing number and press the 
Login button.

You must follow these five steps every time you log into your e-gold account.

Obey this rule, or you will suffer.

I have spoken.

-- Patrick

P.S.  In step 2, you might be tempted to use a bookmark to the e-gold 
site.  I do not recommend it.


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Logging in - more easy steps

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 02:09 PM 10/18/2002 -0500, Jim Davidson wrote:

...

Next, there is the issue of entering your password.  Obviously, if
you have a hidden keystroke logger on your computer about which
you know nothing, it does not matter if the connection to e-gold.com
is secure.  You still have your password logged.  A bad thing.


Correct.


Your typical keystroke logger can't do two things.  First, it
cannot do anything about data in the clipboard (Windows and
MacIntosh products both use a clipboard for temporary storage
of text or other data).  If you paste the clipboard into the
field for password, what appears there is not keystroked - the
keystroke might be ctrl+V but that's hardly revealing.  If
nothing is typed, nothing is keystroke logged.


Yes, and on that point I recommend a two-part password.  You type in the 
first part from memory using the keyboard.  You then open up a notepad file 
you have squirreled away somewhere, double-click a particular chunk of text 
in that file that only you know about, type Ctrl-C to copy it to the 
clipboard, and then type Ctrl-V in the e-gold password field.  This pastes 
in the second part of the password.

That way for somebody to Trojan your password, he would have to:

1.  Install a keystroke logger on your machine to grab the first part of 
the password that you type from memory.

2.  Somehow compromise your system so he can browse through the files on 
your hard drive.

3.  Somehow figure out which strange notepad file on your hard drive 
contains the second part of your password.

4.  Somehow figure out which exact chunk of text in that file is in fact 
the second part of your password.

[OR, he could find some way to create a "clipboard Trojan."  I don't know 
if that's ever been done.  Besides, he would need to install both the 
keyboard Trojan and the hypothetical clipboard Trojan on your machine.]

That all sounds like a very tough job to me.  Even if the hacker logged the 
first part of your password and snagged the file itself, it would still be 
difficult for him to check every possible double-clickable chunk of text in 
that file as the second part of the password.  The Turing number on the 
login screen would make this extraordinarily difficult to automate.

Plus, every month or so you could choose a different chunk to use as part 
two of your password.  There's nothing new to remember other than the 
position in the file.

Again, this sounds pretty tough to crack in my humble opinion.  For more 
expert advice, I defer to Bryan Allerdice, whose comments may be worthy of 
a tip.

Regards,
Patrick Chkoreff
http://fexl.2cw.org


You can also use the virtual keyboard, but that may be subject
to monitoring via TEMPEST or van Eck devices.

Regards,

Jim
 http://cambist.net/



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[e-gold-list] RE: [dgc.chat] Logging in - more easy steps

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 12:21 PM 10/18/2002 -0700, Bryan Allerdice wrote:

> Your typical keystroke logger can't do two things.  First, it
> cannot do anything about data in the clipboard (Windows and
> MacIntosh products both use a clipboard for temporary storage
> of text or other data).

Not in my experience. Any trojan I've run across in the past few years has
clipboard monitoring too. I think it's dangerous of people to think that
they are safe because they have a file with the alphabet in it and they drag
and drop letters.


Well darn.  I should have guessed that anyone monitoring system events like 
keyboard strokes could also monitor clipboard operations.  It's all right 
there in the process event queue.

So it sounds like once you get a Trojan you're completely screwed.  Pun 
intended.

That's why I like the CryptoCard that e-bullion and has and to a lesser
degree the PIK thing Pecunix has. Given enough monitored access attempts,
one can learn all the character positions in a PIK - nice idea, but it's
really just delaying the patient hacker. With the CryptoCard your response
is always different - well, there are 100,000,000 responses, but that's a
fair whack.


Pecunix is tough because you must have the PIK code written down or visible 
somewhere, unless you can memorize a 16-char string and pick out the 
character at any given place using mental imagery.

However, I will grant you that it is more secure to refer to parts of a 
printed PIK code than it is to type/paste a full password.  Just keep that 
piece of paper safe and you'll be fine.

I also like the "pin" concept in 1mdc.com, where you choose 4 digits from 
drop-down lists.  Bryan, is there anything you know of that can snag 
that?  I suppose you could monitor mouse movement events and detect when 
drop-down lists are pulled down and scrolled, and devise an algorithm to 
deduce the digits from relative positioning.  I guess that'll have to be in 
Trojan Version 2.0.  :-)

Anyway, that's just my take.

BRYAN


Of course you're absolutely right about the CryptoCard in e-bullion.  After 
all, the price has come down to $99.50, which is probably well worth the 
time you would otherwise spend fussing around with passphrases.  Hmm, I 
might've just talked myself into it.

With GoldMoney there's also the certificate option.  I tried that once by 
going to Thawte and generating a freebie cert, but it turned out to be a 
cheap-ass piece of junk that didn't work with the GoldMoney system.  I 
haven't revisited that experiment yet.

-- Patrick



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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Logging in - more easy steps

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 07:57 PM 10/18/2002 +, Sidd wrote:


Now take the price of the cryptocard (about $100 I think), and
compare it to the FREE PIK at Pecunix, that can be changed as
often as you like.

Let us know how frequently we need to change it :-)


Actually that's a good point, Sidd.  As brain-wracking as the PIK first 
appears, you probably don't need to change it very often if at all.

In my previous email I said this:

Pecunix is tough because you must have the PIK code written down or 
visible somewhere, unless you can memorize a 16-char string and pick out 
the character at any given place using mental imagery.

Over time this mental feat may turn out to be easier than I thought.  After 
many logins, you would probably develop a quick feel for "what is the 12th 
char in the PIK." etc.

Very interesting.  Human psychology is a deep subject.

But in any case, keeping the PIK on a printed piece of paper can be 
safe.  Even if you logged in at an Internet cafe and then like an idiot 
left the piece of paper on the table when you left, it would still be 
difficult for anyone to use it because they wouldn't have your account id.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Omnipay Wire Transfers

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 12:58 PM 10/21/2002 -0700, mainely linux wrote:


no offense to omnipay, ... the check by mail option is very slow too.


My experience has been that the check by mail option is very fast.  Pretty 
much by the next day they have mailed that sucker out.  Now if it's the 
post office you're griping about that's a different story.

I haven't use the wire service, so I can't comment there.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] another one!

[Patrick Chkoreff]

JP, here is an insanely accurate figure for the number of gold atoms in ONE 
gram of gold.

3,057,636,704,718,822,743,969


By insanely accurate, I mean way more decimal places than are justified.  I 
got the number using these physical facts:

1.  A mole is 6.02252 * 10^23 atoms.
2.  A mole of gold atoms has a mass of 196.9665 grams.

You can only really use 6 significant decimal places because the mole 
figure (Avogadro's number) only has that many.  A mole is defined as the 
number of carbon atoms in 12 grams of carbon.


Now if you want to be cute you can use the insanely accurate figure.  I 
wouldn't recommend it though, because any physicist in his or her right 
mind will think you're a dork.  So you might want to stick with this figure:

3,057,640,000,000,000,000,000(atoms / gau)

So the base unit in JP's currency will be ONE ATOM of gold.  JP's software 
will keep account balances as the number of individual gold atoms in that 
account.

If you spend ONE GRAM to somebody, JP's software will add this number to 
the account balance:

3,057,640,000,000,000,000,000


-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] India's central bank (II)

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 09:16 AM 10/22/2002 -0400, IanG wrote:

http://www.business-standard.com/today/story.asp?Menu=5&story=1067

"E-gold" was not a currency of any sovereign state, pointed
out RBI. 


What a stupid candy-assed nanny attitude.

Out of a billion or so people in India, there must be at least 1% who 
understand freedom.  Those 10 million people should round up all those 
Nehru-style micro-managing socialist nannies and force them into permanent 
exile in Bangladesh.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Cambist is better

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 10:11 AM 10/22/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Cambist's service is outstanding!


They've been GREAT for me too.  The GoldChex service works very well:

http://cambist.net/fiat/goldchex.cgi

They accept virtually every currency you can think of.  Well, I just 
noticed they don't accept Pecunix yet!  :o)

But you can use:

1mdc
Crowne Gold
American Liberty Silver
e-bullion
e-dinar
e-gold   (also e-silver, e-platinum, e-palladium)
GoldMoney goldgrams
gold, silver, platinum specie
gold, silver, platinum bullion


But you know what I really want, Cambist dudes?  I want an option where you 
can issue a credit directly to my credit card!

I could then use the credit card at bricks-and-mortar stores, have all my 
monthly bills auto-paid with the credit card, and even use things like 
Paypal where it's accepted.

Then every month I look at my statement, reconcile it, and hell if there's 
any fraud maybe even have a charge reversed.

THEN I would just spend some 1mdc or whatever to GoldChex and they would 
issue a credit DIRECTLY to my credit card!  That way they don't have to 
kill any trees or give the post office any more undeserved business.

Why NOT, Cambist dudes? !

That would enable me to be INCREDIBLY LAZY, and prevent me from having to 
worry about the Post Office doing their job!

That's what I want -- to be lazy and carefree!!!  :-)

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] India's central bank (II)

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 11:19 AM 10/22/2002 -0400, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:

At 09:16 AM 10/22/2002 -0400, IanG wrote:

http://www.business-standard.com/today/story.asp?Menu=5&story=1067

"E-gold" was not a currency of any sovereign state, pointed
out RBI. 


What a stupid candy-assed nanny attitude.

Out of a billion or so people in India, there must be at least 1% who 
understand freedom.  Those 10 million people should round up all those 
Nehru-style micro-managing socialist nannies and force them into permanent 
exile in Bangladesh.

Got a note from a friend and now I've changed my mind.  Poor little 
Bangladesh has been dumped on enough already.  I pray that the people of 
Bangladesh enjoy a bright and prosperous future.

Therefore, I recommend that the Nehru-style micro-managing socialist 
nannies of India be promptly exiled to France where they will hardly be 
noticed.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] O Capulin Where Art Thou?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

The Capulin Coffee site has been disabled.  http://capulin.com shows this:

This domain has temporarily been disabled.
To restore the domain, contact your Customer Support.

What's up, Daniel?  Or should I say, what's down?  :-(

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: O Capulin Where Art Thou?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 01:12 PM 10/28/2002 -0700, Daniel Fourwinds wrote:

Hey Patrick

I haven't bee able to post to the list? Do you mind posting the
letter I just sent for me? Just in case someone might be interested??



Sure Daniel, no problem.  Here are Daniel's reassuring words:


Oh concern, such sweet concern, how warm art thou

Not to fear sir! We're up now!!

daniel



And indeed -- they are up!  http://capulin.com

Whew!  :-P

-- Patrick



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[e-gold-list] Re: Is this really e-gold?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 09:10 AM 10/29/2002 +1100, Ian Green wrote:

It's not e-gold. Look at the "Received: from" header. The sender can write 
anything they like into the "From:" header.

Not only would something like this NEVER be from e-gold, it also DOESN'T 
MATTER if you always follow these login steps, without fail and with no 
exceptions:

1. Bring up a new browser window.
2. Type "use.e-gold.com" in the browser Address field and press the Enter key.
3. When the login page comes up, check for the little lock icon at the bottom.
4. Enter an account number, password, and the Turing number and press the 
Login button.

I'll flog that dead horse every chance I get. :-)

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Watch Where You Point That Weapon! was Re: Good Read..

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 08:50 AM 10/30/2002 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I could not agree more! Indeed today ASIO (the mini-me equivalent of the 
CIA) smashed their way armed with machine guns into the homes of 
Australians of Indonesian origin

thank goodness, Ian!


I sure hope it never happens to you, JP.

PC


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[e-gold-list] Re: Promoting the gold economy/CAPULIN for Grams

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 08:32 AM 10/31/2002 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


>> I am going to write a  letter to the the e-gold list serve and see if
 someone can tell me. at $317.70 leaving you it was 11. 8263009
>> grams. or +0.380224 of an ounce  less -0.048951 grams on the hold
then going at $311.50 through omni exchange per ounce coming out,
>> Less a Dollar for the service/check and not being adept at higher
 Calculus I am going to submit it to the gold wizards, 


Daniel:

It sounds like you're overcomplicating the problem.  From what I can tell 
all you're really after is this:

1.  What is the dollar amount of the check I receive from Omnipay?
2.  What is the dollar price of one bag of coffee?
3.  What does it cost to ship bags of coffee?

It doesn't even matter how much gold the guy sent you, or what the price 
per gram was at that time, etc.  What obviously matters to you is the 
bottom line dollar figure you receive from Omnipay.

So the guy sends you a chunk of gold.  You turn right around and send that 
check to Omnipay.  Omnipay deducts $1 and sends you a check for, let's just 
say for example, ... $117.44.

You look at the check from Omnipay and it says $117.44.  Now let's say 
coffee is $9.95 per bag.  So that's 11.8 bags.

You can't just send him 11.8 bags though.  First, you can only ship whole 
bags.  Second, shipping isn't free.

Here's where you need to use a little trial and error.  I don't know the 
shipping rates, but you'll get the idea.

First you say, what happens if I ship him 11 bags?  At $9.95 per bag, that 
is $109.45 worth of coffee.  Out of the $117.44 check from Omnipay, that 
leaves me $7.99 for shipping.  Is that enough?  If so, go for it -- ship 
him 11 bags, pay the shipping, and pocket whatever spare change is left over.

Now let's say $7.99 is not enough for shipping.  Fine, what happens if we 
ship 10 bags?  At $9.95 per bag, that is $99.50 worth of coffee.  That 
leaves $17.94 for shipping.  Surely that's enough!

If your spare change is too high, just refund him the difference.  So if 
shipping is only $9.94 and you wouldn't feel right about pocketing the 
extra $8, just spend it back to him!

I've tried to simplify the problem, and I don't think I've oversimplified it.

What do you think, Daniel?

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] small wording correction

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 12:00 PM 10/31/2002 -0500, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:


So the guy sends you a chunk of gold.  You turn right around and send that 
check to Omnipay.

Oops, I meant to say "send that CHUNK to Omnipay."

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: small wording correction

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 12:27 PM 10/31/2002 -0500, James M. Ray wrote:


Daniel, at the moment isn't a pound of coffee, shipped in the US,
about the value of a gram of e-gold? Ideally, you could price it by
weight! Simplicity itself!!
JMR


That could be fun.  I was going to mention it but I just wanted to focus on 
the rounding and shipping problem.

Daniel's question is overly complex because he's trying to do too much 
"net" calculation.  Under ordinary circumstances the question is not "how 
many bags can I ship for a given amount of money," but instead the simpler 
question "how much should I charge for a given number of bags".  That's 
easy -- total up the charges for the bags and add the shipping!  Going 
backward is a little tougher.

I would understand Daniel's reluctance to show prices in terms of 
grams.  Even GoldBarter.com caved on this issue, or I think they show both now.

If Daniel priced in grams, he'd probably also want to show the dollar 
figures.  Problem is these would be fluctuating all the time, so he'd have 
to hire a CGI programmer to do this for him.  The CGI programmer might want 
to put in some "rounding bands" to prevent the prices from constantly 
jumping all over the place as exchange rates fluctuate.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Promoting the gold economy/CAPULIN for Grams

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 01:14 PM 10/31/2002 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Dear Patrick

You wrote:
> It sounds like you're overcomplicating the problem.

I wish I found it that simple however...

I did not receive a single check from Omni for the amount of the sale, it
was lumped together as a Dollar amount withdrawal and not itemized, nor
did I receive a USD amount for the grams received from e-gold, nor an
itemized list of each clients account.


OK, maybe I don't understand.  I thought the question was this:

Joe Blow just gave me X amount of gold.  How much coffee should I send him?

It sounds like (1) It's several unknown John Does, and (2) You don't know 
X.  :-)

THAT my friend sounds unsolvable.  What am I missing?

If you don't know WHO gave you WHAT, you don't know ANYTHING.  :-O

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Promoting the gold economy/CAPULIN for Grams

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 09:35 PM 10/31/2002 +, SnowDog wrote:


Now you've gotten me interested in the problem, but I can't seem to figure
out what the problem is. 


My sentiments exactly.  That's why I want to bypass all the complication 
about exchange rates, transaction fees, the $1 for the check, etc.

I want the NET bottom-line dollar amount!  Like this:

1.  Joe sent me some gold.
2.  I sent that gold to Omnipay and now I have a check for $137.50 in my hand.
3.  How many bags of coffee should I send to Joe in exchange for my net of 
$137.50?


The 137.50 is just to make things very concrete -- if you prefer to use X 
then go right ahead.


I just thought of something Daniel.  Are you saying you DO NOT YET HAVE the 
check from Omnipay?  If not, then it's pretty easy to calculate how much 
that check will be.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: g economy/CAPULIN for Grams

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 05:03 PM 10/31/2002 -0600, shupperd1 wrote:

I thought of something during this whole process too!  Why not use Fastgold
to send you a check for FREE, then you dont have to worry about that $1 .


Um, when did this deal start?  The last few times I've logged into your 
site I've seen fees of TEN DOLLARS for checks or ecount.  I guess I need to 
take another look.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Free check from Fastgold?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 05:03 PM 10/31/2002 -0600, shupperd1 wrote:


...  Why not use Fastgold
to send you a check for FREE, then you dont have to worry about that $1.



Again James, I do not see this on your web site.  I just logged into 
http://fastgold.net and clicked "To Sell Gold for Cash."

When I click the "Check" option it says:

"A $10 Fee is deducted for receiving funds by Check"

When I click the "Ecount" option it says:

"A $10 Fee is deducted for receiving funds by Ecount"


If you're sending checks for FREE then please update your website because 
you're scaring away customers.  :-)

Plus the Ecount option sounds cool because I could use my ecount debit card 
or sweep the funds to a bank account.  Is that option free also?

-- Patrick




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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Free check from Fastgold?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 09:45 AM 11/1/2002 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Again James, I do not see this on your web site.  I just logged into 
http://fastgold.net and clicked "To Sell Gold for Cash."

(Say Patrick -- isn't that a special offer James makes for 1mdcGrams 
only?  Perhaps I should butt out!)

Interesting thought, but the original context of James' message was in 
response to Daniel Fourwinds, so I assume he's talking about e-gold.

I know one way to find out -- I'll just take Mr. Shupperd up on his offer!

OK, here goes 

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] voluntary compliance

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 03:57 AM 11/2/2002 +, Graham Kelly wrote:

I LIKE the present US constitution... IMHO, I think that the US govmint
folks feel it needs to be "updated", but it appears that most US citizens
are happy with it.


Some nice words yes, but what part of "Congress shall make no law" don't 
they understand?  :-)


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[e-gold-list] Re: Watch Where You Point That Weapon! was Re: Good Read..

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 02:25 PM 11/2/2002 -0800, Ragnar wrote:


> I sure hope it never happens to you, JP.

People who support that sort of thing should have it happen to
them.


:-)  I was being too generous.


But I thought JP was talking tongue-in-cheek...


Nope.

PC


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[e-gold-list] Re: Pretty Cool

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 11:21 AM 11/9/2002 +1100, Goldtoday wrote:

If you go to:
http://www.exchangeprovider.net/ecta.cgi?page=merchant

you will be surprised how many merchants accept DGCs


That's a really nice list, Michael.

My sales rep for http://horizonfoods.com just came by to deliver some more 
food, and once again I had a little chat with him about e-gold.  Turns out 
he used to be a big Ebay guru (selling snowboards and supplies), and he 
knew about Paypal.  I discussed the advantages of e-gold with him, such as 
non-repudiable payments and lower transaction fees, and the problems with 
Paypal such as chargebacks and frozen merchant accounts.

Maybe one day he'll let me pay for my food with e-gold.  For now he just 
carries around a credit card swiper, and that's probably a big corporate 
policy thing even though he's a fairly independent rep.

In the meantime I'll just have to swipe the credit card and then pay my CC 
bill every month via http://cambist.net, http://fastgold.net, or 
http://omnipay.net.  Those are all excellent options!

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: ICK chess server accepts e-gold

[Patrick Chkoreff]

>http://chess.kiev.ua
>

Fascinating. Hey Jay, did this guy just win a prize? I forget
the requirements, and a cursory search didn't find that old
email. I have wanted a way to remotely bet on chess with
e-gold for quite a while, so thanks!
JMR


And in this case, the stilted English on the main page is probably a good 
sign!  In fact, they should keep it that way -- it makes it look more 
Russian.  :-)

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: ICK chess server accepts e-gold

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 09:26 AM 11/17/2002 -0500, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:


... it makes it look more Russian.


Oops, how dare I?  I should have said more Ukrainian.  :-)

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Liberty Dollar Debuts Online!

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 07:43 AM 11/20/2002 -0500, James M. Ray wrote:

... Silver, at the
moment, sells for less than five bucks an ounce, and the
key is that Bernard has unilaterally declared an ounce of
silver = $10 of his bucks ...


Please tell us where you can buy one ounce minted silver coins for anywhere 
near five bucks.

I believe the five buck spot price is only for bullion traders purchasing 
100 oz bars.

Regards,
Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Liberty Dollar Debuts Online!

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 09:36 AM 11/20/2002 -0500, C. Cormier - Ormetal Inc. wrote:

On 20 Nov 2002, at 9:32, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:

> Please tell us where you can buy one ounce minted silver coins for
> anywhere near five bucks.

Patrick,

The best price you can get these days for a one ounce silver coin
(Say a Silver Maple Leaf) is $6.81-$7.00

STill a lot cheaper than $10.



Thanks for the information Claude!

So now we can see that von NotHaus' "chutzpah" factor is more like 43%, not 
the 100% that Jim Ray implied.  :-)

They had to walk a difficult line when they designed the Liberty 
coin.  They decided to denominate it in dollars so it would be 
familiar.  But then the question became, how many dollars?  Any number you 
choose is somewhat arbitrary, since it will almost never equal the spot 
price of silver or the asking price of most silver bullion coins.

So what's the correct number?  Five?  Too low.  Ten?  Seems about 
right.  Twenty?  Too high.  Certainly they didn't want to use something 
like 7.50 or 8.

Some would argue that this inherent difficulty is evidence that 
denominating a precious metal coin in dollars is a bad idea to being 
with.  Personally I wouldn't go that far.

But once you decide to denominate a coin in dollars, you have to pick a 
reasonable and workable number.  I think Ten is pretty good.

The "problem" with most bullion coins is they either have no denomination 
in national units or an unreasonably low denomination -- for example, a one 
ounce gold coin denominated as Fifty Dollars.  It's a sick joke.

If you're going to have a precious metal coin denominated in familiar 
units, and you want that coin to circulate and spend as those units, I 
think you have to err a bit on the high side.

So, the $3.00 spread between the Silver Maple Leaf and the Liberty coin is 
the price you pay for having the words "Ten Dollars" stamped on the coin.  :-)

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Help with two-cents-worth.com

[Patrick Chkoreff]

A friend of mine has a problem with his two-cents-worth link and I need 
some help figuring out what's going on.

His link is:  http://str.two-cents-worth.com

Note that if you select the e-gold option and press "Donate Now," the 
e-gold payment screen says this:

Error: The PAYMENT_URL is not valid. Only "http", and "https" URLs are valid.

Error: The NOPAYMENT_URL is not valid. Only "http", and "https" URLs are 
valid.

*** 2 error(s) detected on the Entry Form ***


However, my own personal link works just fine:  http://fexl.two-cents-worth.com


I've done a View Source on the various html forms, and I've logged into my 
two-cents-worth subscriber config to see if there's any setting that might 
cause my friend's problem.  I haven't found anything yet.

Does Sidd or anybody else have any idea what the problem is?

Thanks,
Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Help with two-cents-worth.com

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 12:05 PM 11/21/2002 -0500, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:

A friend of mine has a problem with his two-cents-worth link and I need 
some help figuring out what's going on.

His link is:  http://str.two-cents-worth.com

...


Duh, the problem was he didn't have the "http://"; in front of the Return 
URL in his two-cents-worth settings.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: PressHog: Accepting E-Gold for Press Release Services

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 07:25 PM 11/25/2002 -0500, James M. Ray wrote:


Thomas, try replacing your office coffee with Capulin from Daniel.

You will be impressed, and the small extra cost would be worth it
even if it weren't going to such a good cause, IMO. "Capitalism
saves the Mexican rainforests & Indian farmers," what more can
a bunch of libertarians possibly want from a company?
JMR


That's as good as it gets!!

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com



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[e-gold-list] Re: fastgold

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 03:47 PM 11/27/2002 -0500, Space Gold LLC wrote:

Good Day!

Can someone please help me locate Mr James Shupperd? How can I contact
him?

Sincerelly,
Paul



All the information you need is at http://fastgold.net/.  The contact info 
is in the gold stripe down the left side of the page.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Norfed Disclaimer

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 06:16 PM 12/1/2002 -0600, SnowDog wrote:

> >TITLE 18 , PART I , CHAPTER 25 , Sec. 486.
> >Sec. 486. - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
> >Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes,
> >or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other
> >metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money,
> >whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of
> >foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under
> >this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Fascinating, but it looks to me like the key clause is 'intended for use as
current money'. If the money is being passed-off as US Dollars, then it
looks like the law is being broken. All of Chapter 25 is concerned with
counterfeiting and forgery.



Are you sure "current money" is restricted to US dollars here?  Would 
denominating a coin in grams of gold really get you off the hook?

For example, let's say I produced a six gold gram coin, denominated only in 
grams, and issued a press release declaring "I intend these coins to be 
used as current money within the United States.  I want them to circulate 
as money.  I want people to think of them as money.  They are in fact 
money.  Spend them.  Use them in commerce."

That would seem to put me in direct violation of the strict wording of this 
law.  Of course, as Jim Davidson points out, just about every principled 
act of freedom is illegal under some law anyway.  But specifically this 
appears to be a law that outlaws the production of six gold gram coins 
intended for use as money.

Now that would be a law worthy of nothing but contempt and disobedience!

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: News about Nigerian scams

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 12:57 PM 12/5/2002 -0500, Alexis Golzman wrote:

I'm sure this will be of interest to you:

http://www.nigerianscams.org/SpecialAlert.htm




One fine lady decided to mess with the scammers and wrote up the account at:

http://www.wendywillcox.50megs.com/


Pretty funny stuff.  Here's an excerpt from one of the emails she sent to 
the scammer:

From: Wendy
To: Timothy Mobutu Sese-seko
Subject: RE: Agreement

Yes, I can travel to Amsterdam if I need to. But you did not answer my 
question in regard to whether I need to travel to The Congo. I saw the 
movie "Congo" and it was very frightening. I would be afraid of the 
gorillas if I travelled there.


Wendy kept this fish on the line for a good long time, doing her part to 
stymie the forces of evil!

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com




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[e-gold-list] Re: Trouble making spends

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 05:27 PM 1/4/2003 +1100, Dan@SydneyGoldSales wrote:

Is anyone else having trouble making spends using e-Gold at the moment?

I keep getting the "Try again in a few minutes" message and a lot of minutes
have gone by.


Gosh, I just made a spends at 22:28 and 22:38 GMT (05-Dec-02) with no 
problem whatsoever.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Another rip

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 12:07 AM 12/11/2002 -0600, Joseph Firmino wrote:


The person who received it, being somewhat taken aback, either opened an
attachment or logged in to a fake e-gold site. I'm not sure of the details.
At any rate nothing was found amiss until the next time he checked and found
nothing at all.


THE GOLDEN RULE OF SECURITY:

I guess it's hard to communicate the Golden Rule of Security to every 
single person in an organization, but here it is again for everybody's benefit:

RULE: When you log into your e-gold account, ALWAYS bring up a new browser 
window and either use a bookmark or manually type "e-gold.com" to get to 
the e-gold site.  (You can also type the shorthand "use.e-gold.com".)

If you follow this rule, it means you must NEVER log into your e-gold 
account through an email form or through any site you reach by clicking a 
link in an email.  You have to go to the login page manually EVERY time 
without exception.


YOUR CHOICE AS AN E-GOLD USER:

You have two choices as an e-gold user.  Either you obey The Golden 
Security Rule slavishly and compulsively, or you will suffer greatly.  It's 
your choice.  Choose wisely.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Dear God, Another rip?!

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Daniel wrote:

Sorry to hear of the rip for the loaves and fishes CAPULIN dropped $1400
to the same or similar scammers.. perhaps we socially conscious type,
heartfelt folks, are dumber than rocks?!?


Let's just say unaware of the dangers.  I'm very sorry these lessons have 
been so expensive.  Let's do everything we can to keep gold out of the 
hands of thieves.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Golden Rule of Security

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 03:18 PM 12/12/2002 +1100, Ian Green wrote:

I take it that (you and) this rule distrusts using the (or any) Shopping 
Cart Interface, even though you can check when you get to the login page 
that it is indeed on the e-gold secure website?

No, I don't distrust shopping cart interfaces, it just complicates the rule 
too much.  :-)  It's not that easy to describe how to verify you're on the 
true e-gold site when you're using a shopping cart interface.  Checking the 
url can be tough because of all the baggage fields obscuring things, plus 
the problem with distinguishing a "g" from a "q".  In Internet Explorer you 
can double-click the little yellow lock icon and plainly see "Issued to: 
www.e-gold.com".


RULE: When you log into your e-gold account, ALWAYS bring up a new 
browser window and either use a bookmark or manually type "e-gold.com" to 
get to the e-gold site.  (You can also type the shorthand "use.e-gold.com".)


OR get there through phenomenal shopping sites such as http://capulin.com 
and http://bananagold.com!

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com









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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] DGC safe deposit box - for sure!

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 07:51 PM 12/12/2002 +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Now here's a bizarre thing.  1mdc Lodgements cause SO MUCH CONFUSION 
(people write and say "but how can you GIVE AWAY GOLD") that we are 
probably goin to terminate it (maybe next year) and have some different 
promotional scheme (maybe giving away toasters!)

Do you mean you're going to terminate the lodgement service itself, or just 
terminate the bonuses paid on the lodgements?

If you keep the lodgement service but start paying out bonuses in toasters, 
people will still be confused, asking "but how can you GIVE AWAY 
TOASTERS?"  :-)

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Funding Fees

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Boyd Pate wrote:


> If someone deposits cash in to a MM bank account in order to fund their
> e-gold acct, isn't that a no risk transaction for the MM?  ...


SnowDog wrote:


Until the depositor calls you up and asks, "Where's my $11,000 Flat-Screen
Plasma High Density TV, for which I made the deposit?"


Tell him he's a lying sack of shit and to go pound sand.  :-)

Seriously though, I think Boyd is talking about the non-reversibility of 
the payment and the guarantee that the payment really did occur.

For example, even though I'm not a formal MM I could sell some e-gold to 
somebody by telling them to first deposit cash in my bank account.  I could 
then check my bank account online, and the instant I saw the deposit I 
could instantly spend the e-gold in complete and utter safety, knowing the 
deposit was in fact made and is mine to keep.  Right?  Or am I missing 
something, and some more savvy MMs out there can correct me?

By the way, Boyd, I really like all your questions, especially that last 
quite logical query "should
not the least risky transaction for the MM carry the least fees 
charged?"  I've heard of bank wires being reversed, but I've never heard of 
cash deposits being reversed.

Of course, it's theoretically possible that under USA "Patriot" Act (a 
tragic misnomer) and various money laundering laws, all bets are off even 
with cash deposits.  The bank might move those funds into a "questionable 
funds" account.  But I would assume that this risk is identical with bank 
wires (well, cash may actually be a tip-off ... dang this is getting 
complicated).

But assuming governmental risk is identical for both cash deposits and 
wires, it is true that cash deposits are less risky than wires?

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Strike the Root

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Just a reminder that http://strike-the-root.com accepts donations in e-gold 
and GoldMoney.  Rob Moody uses this money to pay for good writers, so if 
you like what you read, send him some gold!

http://www.strike-the-root.com/donate.html


-- Patrick 


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[e-gold-list] Re: We added HyperWallet!

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 09:44 AM 1/3/2003 +1100, Graham Kelly wrote:

Guys,

We have added the www.HyperWallet.com payment option to our "accepted"
payment options...

We can accept Canadian HyperWallet payments, or use HyperWallet to redeem
funds to ANYONE in the US or Canada.

Email me for details... or check out their site.



Thanks for the link.  At first glance it looks like HyperWallet is making a 
valiant attempt to avoid the horrors of Paypal.  In particular, there 
appears to be virtually no way for an average user to fund a HyperWallet 
with a credit card.  Instead, you have to fund it directly from a bank account.

https://www.hyperwallet.com/faqs.jsp?content=detailsfaq&LIST_ID=2354

Apparently the only way to fund a HyperWallet with a credit card is to 
register with HyperWallet as an Ebay auction seller and then start 
receiving credit card payments from buyers.  I suppose the only way a crook 
could fund a HyperWallet with a stolen credit card would be to rig an Ebay 
auction somehow.

https://www.hyperwallet.com/faqs.jsp?id=HyperWallet&content=detailsfaq&LIST_ID=2367

So Graham, it does appear at first glance that accepting HyperWallet 
payments for gold is fairly safe as long as you wait for the funds to clear 
before you send out the gold.  But I'm sure you already know that.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: HyperWallet vs PP vs BrightPay

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 11:10 AM 1/3/2003 +1100, Graham Kelly wrote:


Similar to PayPal. GoldNow does NOT accept a CC funded PP transfer, from
even preferred customers.


I didn't know there was a way for a Paypal merchant to distinguish between 
bank-funded and cc-funded transfers.  Very interesting.

As far as I'm concerned, the BrightPay.com option is the BEST PayPal
replacement, as the spends are GUARANTEED irrevocable! Those 20 million
PP users may just end up at BrightPay.com instead...


BrightPay includes some "soft" funding options such as checks, PayPal, and 
eventually credit cards.  I wonder how they will manage the risk with all 
that?  They do vow to absorb losses and never to freeze entire 
accounts.  Well, I'm sure there are some tried and true techniques to 
manage the odds.  Again, very interesting.

Interesting times ahead... I'm glad to be alive!


As the old Chinese "curse" goes, "May you live in interesting 
times."  Sometimes it's a blessing!

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Return to gold standard

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 12:14 PM 1/6/2003 -0500, George Matyjewicz wrote:

Hi:

I'm researching a paper and came across some interesting stats.  Can 
anybody verify and/or comment?

Why not return to the gold standard?  One of the major issues with this 
premise is the fact that there simply isn't enough gold in existence to 
back all currencies with gold. At the end of 2001, it is estimated that 
all the gold ever mined amounts to about 145,000 metric tons .  As of 31 
December, 2001 the price of gold  was $278.10 a troy ounce.  Hence, the 
total value of gold ever mined and in use is $1,296,462,780,007 ($1.3 
trillion).  This means the value of gold has to increase to match the 
backing of currency.

Comments?

Interesting.  I just had another thought.  Let's say all the central banks 
suddenly decided to back their currencies with gold.  Now, when they go 
into the market to buy gold, how do they pay for it?  Damn, that one's got 
me stumped!

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Return to gold standard

[Patrick Chkoreff]

George Matyjewicz wrote:


Why not return to the gold standard?  One of the major issues with this 
premise is the fact that there simply isn't enough gold in existence to 
back all currencies with gold. At the end of 2001, it is estimated that 
all the gold ever mined amounts to about 145,000 metric tons .  As of 31 
December, 2001 the price of gold  was $278.10 a troy ounce.  Hence, the 
total value of gold ever mined and in use is $1,296,462,780,007 ($1.3 
trillion).  This means the value of gold has to increase to match the 
backing of currency.

It looks like in December 2001 the US Adjusted Monetary Base was about $650 
billion.  So at that time the Fed would need to store about half the gold 
in the world to redeem all those dollars on demand at the prevailing market 
price.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/usfd/page2.pdf

Since we have figures for Dec 2001, I'll stick with them.

There's no way the Fed is going to get hold of 72,500 metric tons of gold, 
park it in a vault somewhere, and say "Come and get it -- for every $278.10 
face value green paper you give us, we'll give you 1 troy ounce of gold for 
it on demand, guaranteed, no questions asked."  It ain't gonna happen 
because they can't get that much gold.

Maybe the best they could do is scrounge up about 8,000 metric tons -- the 
Fed might have that much on its balance sheet in the form of certificates 
and drawing rights.  Right now it's probably all listed as equity of the 
Fed shareholders.  The Fed would have to reclassify the entire amount as a 
liability to all people holding dollars.  That won't make the shareholders 
too happy.  So this ain't gonna happen either.

But anyway, in this hypothetical scenario they'd have 8,000 metric tons 
backing $650 billion.  So here's their redemption offer for the new gold 
standard:

"Come and get it -- for every $2500 face value green paper you give us, 
we'll give you 1 troy ounce of gold for it on demand, guaranteed, no 
questions asked."

So there's another reason why it ain't gonna happen.  You're not going to 
pay $2500 for an ounce of gold at the Fed window when you can get it from a 
dealer for $350.  For now, anyway.

But if the price of gold hits $2500 and the adjusted monetary base is still 
$650 billion, then maybe the Fed can consider a gold standard.  All they 
have to do is take the lid off the gold market, stop increasing the money 
supply for a while, and become honest human beings with integrity ... but 
as I said, it ain't gonna happen.  :-)

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Return to gold standard

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 02:55 AM 1/7/2003 -0500, Robert S.Z. wrote:

Does this figure of 650 Billion include both, paper and book money?
I mean, how exactly would they calculate the book money in "circulation"
when billions are zipping around globe every second?


Don't know much about book money.  I know there's MZM, M1, M2, M3, etc. and 
it makes my eyes glaze over.  I tried to choose a figure that represents 
"the stuff that would be backed in a gold standard."

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/usfd/page2.pdf

The exact figures aren't that important.  In any proposed US dollar gold 
standard, you have to come up with two numbers:  the total number of 
dollars D, and the total number of gold grams in reserve G.

My point is that D is very large and G is very small.  So if you pledge to 
redeem all D dollars for all the gold G on demand, the price of gold at the 
Fed window is going to be way too high by current market standards.

I just arbitrarily picked D = 650 billion using the Adjusted Monetary Base 
figure from the St. Louis Fed because it was the best I could do for free.

I scrounged up the G = 8 billion figure in a really messy way, looking at 
an old Fed balance sheet from 1996 included in Jim Ewart's "Money" 
book.  They value their gold at $42. / oz on the books, and they show a 
total value of $11 billion.  That's a little over 8 billion grams (about 
8000 metric tons).  I don't think you can count all the stolen gold in Ft. 
Knox because a lot of that has probably already been paid to other 
countries.  Too late.  No reparations.  Tough shit.  History is written by 
the victors.  That kind of thing.

So D/G gives you a redemption price at the Fed window of $81.25 per gram, 
about $2500 per oz.  That's over seven times the current market price.  So 
if the Fed instituted this gold standard today and the market price 
remained at $350, nobody in his right mind would ever redeem gold at the 
Fed window for $2500 per oz.!  That gold standard would be totally 
meaningless and would not fly.

So, I'd say that the real and perceived volumes of dollars in circulation
[ie. notes and book] is likely to be well of above the trillion mark.


A more informed analyst than I will almost certainly say that the actual 
figures are much worse than I suggest.  Perhaps D is more like 1000 billion 
if you include all the fractional reserve stuff, and G is much lower 
because the Fed could only muster a 4 billion gram reserve at best.

I'm just pulling those figures out of the air for the sake of example, but 
that would give you a D/G of 250.  That means $250 per gram, or almost 
$7800 per oz.  So there's another gold standard that won't work.

The point is, I believe that using any reasonable numbers for D and G, the 
redemption price of gold D/G is way too high compared to the market 
price.  A Fed window redemption price of $81.25 or $250 per gram won't fly 
if the market price is only $11.25.  Hell, people bitch enough already 
about paying $10 for a Norfed one ounce silver piece.

But who knows?  That's just a static analysis.  Maybe if the Fed declared a 
gold standard at $81.25 per gram and all the central banks and bullion 
banks around the world stopped playing games with the gold market, the 
market price of gold would rise to $81.25 per gram and that would be 
that.  But that presupposes that a large group of powerful but amoral 
people suddenly acquire a measure of integrity.

You see, as Todd Boyle once pointed out to me, a gold standard cannot 
impose rectitude and integrity on a people.  A gold standard is a symptom 
of integrity, not a cause of it.

I concur with Jim Davidson.  My personal motto is "Don't wait for the 
State, it's way too late."  Let's face it:  the Fed, FDR, some other Skull 
and Bones Master-of-the-Universe types, and an ignorant, gullible, and 
cowering public permanently ruined the integrity of the U.S. 
dollar.  Pandora is free, the cat's out of the bag, and "wh let the 
dogs out?"  Now the free market, also known as "Chaos," must reign.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com

"Life is full of risk. If you let fear of the government hold you back you 
won't contribute one useful thing to the world." -- David Mueller 



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[e-gold-list] Re: Help with E-gold Exchange Rate

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 02:25 AM 1/8/2003 +1100, Ian Green wrote:


Spends can be made (denominated) in units of currency or in grams or 
ounces, but the actual transactions are in ounces.

This is a royal pain to me because I keep a Quicken account denominated in 
AUG and the e-gold transaction history only shows weight in ounces.

Right after you make a payment the batch confirmation screen does show the 
gram figure, so if I grab it right then and enter it in Quicken I'm 
ok.  But to go back and enter transactions after the fact -- well, I just 
have to whip out the old calculator and type 31.1034 a lot.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Return to gold standard

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 11:21 AM 1/7/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


"Why no talk of $32,567/oz ?" by Jason Hommel
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/hommel010203.html


Cool!  Look at this little snippet:


... U.S. Gold www.fms.treas.gov/gold/index.html 261 million oz.


I derived that exact figure independently using the Fed's 1996 balance 
sheet -- $11 billion book value at the artificially low price of $42. / 
oz yields 261 million oz, about 8100 metric tons.

Very cool.  They can keep consistent books, and I can use a calculator.  :-)

Now this here is very grim:

... M3 http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/Current/ $8.5 Trillion


As I suggested, if you start counting all kinds of fractional reserve book 
money (e.g. M3), the probability of a viable Fed gold standard drops even 
closer to zero.  I was hoping to stick to the more "concrete" money 
(Adjusted Monetary Base) 
 .

But maybe that's not possible.  The Fed is complicit in the creation of the 
fractional reserve money, so why should they be let off the hook in 
redeeming it for gold as well as the printed paper stuff?  I really wanted 
to avoid saying D = M3, but I think I was trying too hard to be nice to the 
bastards.  :-)

So anyway, to Gary North and Lew Rockwell who want to institute a national 
dollar gold standard, I think we just have to say "get real."  The dollar 
will float all the way down to hell.  The gold standard will just have to 
be gold itself.

And when I say "gold standard," I don't mean some Lawrence Kudlow pablum 
like "Greenspan pulls levers to keep gold hovering around $350."  I mean 
FULL GUARANTEED REDEMPTION.  Nothing less.  I mean notes that say "There 
have been deposited in the U.S. Treasury 20 Dollars in Gold Coin Payable to 
the Bearer on Demand."  The problem we're seeing in this discussion is that 
under that standard, 20 Dollars is likely to get you about 2 centigrams at 
the Fed window.  Don't sneeze.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Return to gold standard

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 07:12 PM 1/8/2003 +1100, David Hillary wrote:


The approach of comparing gold reserves and money is so totally wrong I
can't understand why it would afflict so many people on this list.


I was wondering when somebody was going to say something like this.


The value money held at a bank must be the lesser of its redemption value
and the value of the bank's total assets to total liabilities (assuming all
liabilities are equal). ...


... Ho boy here we go.  :-)  David, I'll get back to you on your math and 
concepts, but let me ask you this.

I thought that in a strict gold standard you had to maintain a constant 
ratio between the number of monetary units in circulation and the amount of 
gold in reserve (i.e., deposited by people who accept your units in return).

GoldMoney and e-gold maintain this ratio at exactly 1 digital gram / 1 
physical gram.  The old US gold standard maintained this ratio at exactly 1 
dollar / 23.22 physical grains.

Now you seem to be saying that these kinds of ratios are too 
simplistic.  In particular, the reserve requirements are too strict.  You 
are saying that a bank can just borrow the gold when it needs it by just 
issuing bonds.  Ah yes, good old debt!

Let's just go ahead right now and give GoldMoney and E-gold permission to 
do that too.  Why should they have strict reserve requirements?  When they 
get more successful and can float bonds, we'll let them spend some of the 
physical gold for their own business needs and then if there's a massive 
redemption they can just borrow the gold back.

Problem is, if there's a massive redemption, who's going to buy the 
bonds?  I say that any issuer of digital gold currency should be prepared 
for a full-scale "run on the bank," with 100% redemption of every gold bar 
in reserve.  If that happens, they should graciously and politely fork over 
all the gold, and then graciously and politely go out of business if that's 
necessary.

Please remember that in a gold standard, the gold in reserve does not 
belong to the bank.  It belongs to those who deposited it there in return 
for currency units.  The bank is not free to use that gold for any purpose 
other than redemption of currency units.  I know, DGCs are not banks, but 
the principle is the same.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Return to gold standard

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 07:11 AM 1/8/2003 -0600, SnowDog wrote:


A gold standard, and fractional reserve banking are two different things.
The US has always had fractional reserve banking. I can't imagine that any
future gold standard would restrict banks from loaning out money. If banks
loan money, there's going to be fractional reserve banking, because the
people who borrow the money will put it in a bank and increase the reserves
in the second bank, though the money also exists in the accounts in the
first bank.


Fractional reserve lending of e-gold grams themselves is not possible.

Let's say I want to start a company that lends out actual e-gold grams on a 
fractional reserve basis.  I take in e-gold deposits, and I then I lend out 
ten times as much e-gold as I have on deposit.

I can't really do this, can I?  That's because I cannot create e-gold grams 
out of thin air the way lending banks can create dollars out of thin 
air.  Unless E-gold gives me the ability to create e-gold grams 
electronically without depositing more gold, it is impossible for me to 
lend out any more e-gold grams than I actually have on deposit.  Sure, I 
could lend out some of my own personal e-gold grams, but then that would be 
yet another deposit.

Now consider the E-gold Trust themselves.  They are not allowed to create 
more digital grams than they have in reserve.  They are not allowed to lend 
out their gold bars.  So clearly they cannot be a fractional reserve 
lending company either.

That is why I conclude that it is not possible to lend e-gold grams 
themselves on a fractional reserve basis.  The only way to approximate it 
would be to create derivative units based on e-gold grams and lend those 
derivative units.  But then you wouldn't be lending the e-gold grams.  When 
you made the loan, you wouldn't be spending e-gold grams to an e-gold 
account, you'd be spending derivative units to a derivative account.

In the case of dollars, the Fed has merely declared that the derivative 
units are counted as actual dollars themselves.  They have set up an 
equivalence that is not possible to set up within the e-gold 
system.  Fractional reserve lending of e-gold grams themselves is not possible.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Gold / Oil

[Patrick Chkoreff]

With the price of gold at $353.80 per troy ounce and the price of crude oil 
at $30.44 per barrel, we have a gold / oil ratio of about 11.6 right now.

The rule of thumb I've heard is that when this ratio is lower than 12, 
generally speaking gold is a bargain.  It seems like every time over the 
last several months I have tracked this ratio it has been fairly close to 11.5.

By the way, this figure of 12 barrels per troy ounce maps neatly into James 
Turk's observation that the price of a barrel of oil tends to stay around 
2.5 grams, even going back to the 1950's.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com 


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[e-gold-list] Re: Return to gold standard

[Patrick Chkoreff]

SnowDog wrote


That's not fractional reserve banking, (nor any kind of banking that I've
ever heard). In fractional reserve banking, you take in deposits, and then
loan-out 90% of those deposits, (say). The borrowers deposit the money in a
bank, (either same bank, or another bank), allowing THAT bank to loan-out
90% of the redeposited money, etcetera... Pretty soon, you have numerous
multiples of actual deposited money, held in various accounts.


DOH!  Yeah, I messed up big time.  Strange, since I'm the same guy who 
posted a full description of this process with balance sheets and 
everything last June, showing how with an 8% reserve ratio yields a money 
multiplier of 12.5, turning a $1000 into $12,500 when it's lent out to 
infinity.

So basically, you're right, and I knew better.  But still, something seems 
fundamentally different when you apply the process to e-gold accounts, but 
I may be mistaken there too.  I'll figure it out.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: I saw Gold Dinar and e-dinar mentioned in

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 03:17 PM 1/8/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

this article online
http://www.islam-online.net/english/news/2003-01/08/article08.shtml
which might be of interest here. They say they have 600,000 users
at e-dinar.com. Wow!
HR


Wow is right -- much better than the Euro idea.  Interesting that they have 
600,000 accounts and that's about how many e-gold has too.  How the heck 
could they grow that fast?

Maybe now with the e-dinar the Islamic countries can start creating and 
innovating again like the good old days and stop spending their energy 
fuming at the U.S., justified or not.  Much better to ignore the U.S. than 
to attack it head on.  Much better for all of us, including us innocent 
civilians living here in the U.S.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: I saw Gold Dinar and e-dinar mentioned in

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 12:26 AM 1/9/2003 +0100, marco wrote:

I think the account numbers are the same as e-gold, in that the 2 dbases
seem integrated with each other. I just opened an e-dinar account, 709426,
from the edinar website, now if you try and make a spend to that account
from egold, you will see it is there as well (feel free to spend if you
wish.. LOL)


Also, the e-dinar account agreement is essentially a copy of e-gold's.  It 
contains both the phrases "e-dinar" and "e-gold" thoroughout.

If you go to the history page you see this little blurb too:

1999 First business contacts with e-gold
Feb 2000 1st work session with e-gold in Florida
May 2000 2nd work session with e-gold in London


Evidently the e-dinar site is a new interface built on top of the existing 
e-gold database.  Very wise, of course, to use such a nice already existing 
wheel.

The e-kiosk idea for on the spot exchanges between E-dinar and dinar 
(physical gold coins) is pretty neat too.  They have an interesting profit 
model for independent e-kiosk operators.  Scroll way down in:

http://www.e-dinar.com/en/main_parts/8/e-kiosk.pdf


-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: US President Bush opens E-gold account!

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 09:00 PM 1/9/2003 +0100, marco wrote:

DO NOT GO TO THIS PAGE, IT IS ANOTHER TRICK TO STEAL PASSWORDS!!!

> US President Bush has openned an e-gold account. See what the President
had to say about the future of digital currency and the world. Remember, you
heard it from us first!http://hft.hypermart.net/ecurrency-news/


Thanks for the alert.  However, I personally use one simple rule to protect 
me against all of these scams.

Every time I log into e-gold, I bring up a new browser window and manually 
type the url "use.e-gold.com."

I make no exceptions to this rule.  The only time I ever type my e-gold 
password is about two seconds after typing "use.e-gold.com."

But of course you don't have to be this strict if you don't want to.  After 
all, maybe you can afford to lose more gold than I can.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Don't go there

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 03:28 PM 1/9/2003 -0500, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:


At 09:00 PM 1/9/2003 +0100, marco wrote:

DO NOT GO TO THIS PAGE, IT IS ANOTHER TRICK TO STEAL PASSWORDS!!!

> US President Bush has openned an e-gold account. See what the President
had to say about the future of digital currency and the world. Remember, you
heard it from us first!http://  hft.hypermart.net/ecurrency-news/


Marco, do you know if this page is exploiting one of those unbelievably 
obscure IE flaws we occasionally hear about, installing a trojan just by 
visiting it?  If so, is it addressed by any of the Microsoft patches?  I 
didn't click it or anything, I was just wondering if this link is 
super-devious.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Don't go there

[Patrick Chkoreff]

At 04:11 PM 1/9/2003 -0800, Matthew Schlegel wrote:


My guess is that it is exploiting well known vulnerabilities in IE.  That 
leaves all of us that don't use IE safe, at least from this one.  Those of 
us running a non-windows platform (particularly a unix based platform) are 
generally safe from most all of these types of attacks as well.

What about IE running on OSX?  That's how the Apple iBooks ship these 
days.  Does IE on OSX share some of the same vulnerabilities as IE on Windoze?

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Fractional Reserve Lending is Always Possible

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Fractional reserve lending is always possible using any countable 
entity.  You can use physical cash, physical gold, electronic gold, or even 
seashells if you want.  If you can recognize and count it, you can lend it 
on a fractional reserve basis.

I know that this is stating the obvious, but sometimes the obvious gets 
buried under a sea of obscure terminology, causing people to argue and draw 
inaccurate conclusions.  People start talking about money multipliers and 
pretty soon they're asserting that banks can somehow create money out of 
thin air.  I believe the following example clearly demonstrates that even 
on a remote island with just a few people trading seashells, fractional 
reserve lending is distinctly possible.

In this example, I use dollars in the form of physical cash -- actual 
pieces of green paper.  No electronic transfers or checks are needed to 
make it work.  It works even if all you do is tote pieces of green paper 
around.

To clarify the process I use a formal notation, but I decided not to use 
standard balance sheets because they are very dry and not compelling to the 
imagination.  However, the notation I use can easily be translated into 
balance sheets.

Instead, I describe the status of the process as a collection of 
facts.  Each fact has one of these forms:

- X has $N in cash.
- X has $N deposit from Y at P% monthly interest.
- X owes $N to Y at P% monthly interest.
- X has net worth $N.

Note that we only mention the cases where N > 0.

Then there are the operations that map each process status into the 
next.  Each operation has one of these forms:

- X deposits $N with Y at P% monthly rate.
- X lends $N to Y at P% monthly rate.
- X withdraws $N from Y.
- X pays Y $A principal and $B interest.
- X credits Y $B interest.
- X earns $N.


So without further ado, here's the example:

Initial Status:
- Alice has $1000 cash.
- Alice has net worth $1000.

Operation:  Alice deposits $1000 with Ivan at 0.2% monthly rate.

Status:
- Ivan has $1000 cash.
- Ivan has $1000 deposit from Alice at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Alice has net worth $1000.

Operation:  Ivan lends $900 to Bob at 0.8% monthly rate.

Status:
- Ivan has $100 cash.
- Ivan has $1000 deposit from Alice at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Bob has $900 in cash.
- Bob owes $900 to Ivan at 0.8% monthly interest.
- Alice has net worth $1000.

Operation:  Bob deposits $900 with Ivan at 0.2% monthly rate.

Status:
- Ivan has $1000 cash.
- Ivan has $1000 deposit from Alice at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Ivan has $900 deposit from Bob at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Bob owes $900 to Ivan at 0.8% monthly interest.
- Alice has net worth $1000.

Operation:  Alice withdraws $70 from Ivan.
Operation:  Bob withdraws $80 from Ivan.

Status:
- Ivan has $850 cash.
- Alice has $70 cash.
- Bob has $80 cash.
- Ivan has $930 deposit from Alice at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Ivan has $820 deposit from Bob at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Bob owes $900 to Ivan at 0.8% monthly interest.
- Alice has net worth $1000.

Operation:  Bob pays Ivan $20 principal and $8 interest.

Status:
- Ivan has $878 cash.
- Alice has $70 cash.
- Bob has $52 cash.
- Ivan has $930 deposit from Alice at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Ivan has $820 deposit from Bob at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Bob owes $880 to Ivan at 0.8% monthly interest.
- Alice has net worth $1000.
- Bob has net worth -$8.
- Ivan has net worth $8.

Operation:  Ivan credits Alice $2 interest.
Operation:  Ivan credits Bob $2 interest.

Status:
- Ivan has $878 cash.
- Alice has $70 cash.
- Bob has $52 cash.
- Ivan has $932 deposit from Alice at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Ivan has $822 deposit from Bob at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Bob owes $880 to Ivan at 0.8% monthly interest.
- Alice has net worth $1002.
- Bob has net worth -$6.
- Ivan has net worth $4.

Operation:  Bob earns $1000.

Status:
- Ivan has $878 cash.
- Alice has $70 cash.
- Bob has $1052 cash.
- Ivan has $932 deposit from Alice at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Ivan has $822 deposit from Bob at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Bob owes $880 to Ivan at 0.8% monthly interest.
- Alice has net worth $1002.
- Bob has net worth $994.
- Ivan has net worth $4.

Operation:  Bob pays Ivan $880 principal and $0 interest.

(NOTE:  This represents a complete loan payoff.)

Status:
- Ivan has $1758 cash.
- Alice has $70 cash.
- Bob has $172 cash.
- Ivan has $932 deposit from Alice at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Ivan has $822 deposit from Bob at 0.2% monthly interest.
- Alice has net worth $1002.
- Bob has net worth $994.
- Ivan has net worth $4.

Operation:  Alice withdraws $932 from Ivan.
Operation:  Bob withdraws $822 from Ivan.

Status:
- Ivan has $4 cash.
- Alice has $1002 cash.
- Bob has $994 cash.
- Alice has net worth $1002.
- Bob has net worth $994.
- Ivan has net worth $4.

SUMMARY:

Bob borrowed $900, paid $8 interest on his loan and earned $2 interest on 
his deposit.  His net interest payment was $6, of which Ivan received $4 
and Alice received $2.

CONCLUSION:

Fractional reser

[e-gold-list] Re: IRS Offers Amnesty to Foreign Credit Card Holders

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Dale Pond wrote:


WASHINGTON (AP) - The Internal Revenue Service is offering a 
get-out-of-jail-free card: Declare any offshore credit cards that you 
have used to hide income and you'll receive only minor penalties or no 
punishment at all.

Ian Green wrote:


ROTFLOL!


Yeah!  Is this kind of like that time Saddam Hussein invited his 
sons-in-law back to Iraq with full amnesty and then summarily shot them?

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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[e-gold-list] Re: Paypal vs e-gold: Similar services?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

Annelie wrote:


I'm new to the whole concept of e-businesses, and I'm not sure if it such
a good idea to use e-gold in the place of Paypal. Is doing business online
more difficult with e-gold than Paypal?


I think you'll be happy using e-gold, and it won't be any more difficult 
than setting up Paypal.

Here's a starting point:

http://e-gold.com/unsecure/sci_home.html

If you go there and click the "Shopping Cart Interface" link you'll see 
some useful information.  On the left side they actually have a working 
"Click to Spend Now" button to demonstrate how it's done.

Right below that, they show you the html code you need to put on your web 
page.  You can just copy and paste that right in and just change the stuff 
that's shown in red:

- your account number
- your company name
- your email address
- what web page to show when a payment is successful
- what web page to show when a payment is not successful
- what to put in the memo field on the payment screen (you can put an order 
number, a thank you, or whatever)

That's it really.  Oh sure, you can get really fancy and do the fully 
automatic stuff shown on the right, but you probably don't need to.

Let us know if you have any questions.  I'm sure a lot of us will be happy 
to chime in with any answers you need.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com


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