Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Ed Muns]

This RTTY system configuration is the worst one I can think of (sorry!).
The RTTY receive will be great for you and transmit will be greatly
compromised, for both you and your QSO partners.  Once you have a PC/modem
interfaced to the K3S for receive it is trivial to use it for transmit as
well.  The whole reason for the Elecraft built-in feature is for
configurations where there is no PC and RTTY modem.

The Elecraft CW-RTTY feature is a tremendous benefit for working one or, at
most, a very few contacts without the complication of a PC and RTTY modem
hardware or software.  The caveat is few people can send good CW at 60 WPM
so the copy by the QSO partner will be frustratingly slow.

In a contest, for a few contacts, this feature can work well using the K3S
CW/RTTY memories as long as the contest exchange is not unique, e.g., serial
numbers.  You can have one message with your call sign for answering CQing
stations and second message with your exchange.  You just press the K3S
message buttons and the RTTY is sent out at the normal 60 wpm.

Ed W0YK
__

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don
Pomplun
Sent: 08 March, 2017 19:43
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

I'm hoping hat I can use the K3S sound card hardware & PC software for 
the receive side, and use the paddle CW interface as the transmit side.  
Any experience in the group with doing that?

Don   K2BIO



On 03/08/2017 07:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> > For those using the K3, get an external soundcard, even an inexpensive
> > one and use the K3's VOX - it will perform better and with lower noise
> > than the Signalink.
>
> And it will not require that the sound car transmit level be turned to
> the maximum as is the case with Signalink (read their instructions).
> By running the sound card transmit level at no more than 80% the TX
> audio is generally *significantly* cleaner because the sound card audio
> chain is not being driven into clipping.
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 3/8/2017 6:50 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Actually, the K3 has isolation for the Line In and Line Out signals, and
>> no interface is required for digital modes.  Just a computer soundcard
>> and good quality audio cables so they do not pick up hum, buzz and
>> noise.  PTT is not required either, use VOX.  Actually, the Signalink
>> PTT is derived from the audio stream - so in effect, the Signalink has
>> its own simplistic VOX which activates its PTT output.
>>
>> For those using the K3, get an external soundcard, even an inexpensive
>> one and use the K3's VOX - it will perform better and with lower noise
>> than the Signalink.
>>
>> For the K3S and a K3 that has the new KIO3B option installed, everything
>> is the same, except the "external soundcard" (as seen by the computer
>> application) is built into the K3/K3S and no audio cables are involved.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 3/8/2017 6:18 PM, Don Pomplun wrote:
>> like the SignalLink USB.
>>> Am I correct so far?
>>> So then fig 10-14 (Fred's book) gives me the impression that with this
>>> hookup, I can then run any RTTY software on the PC and the PC to K3S
>>> interfacing is all taken care of, right?
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[w7aqk]

Rick and All,

The Sherwood performance chart is strictly about RX, not TX!!!  If you want 
TX info, you need to go elsewhere.  That's what reviews like the ones in QST 
can give you.


Rob has been doing this for a lot of years now, and on a strictly volunteer, 
no pay, basis.  It has become somewhat "iconic", as a guide, but it's just 
another set of data that may, or may not, be helpful to you.  It's not the 
only thing you need, or should rely on, in evaluating a purchase.


you are right to be concerned about how clean a transmitter is, but there 
are regulatory requirements about that.  If you don't meet those standards, 
you supposedly can't sell it!!!  Besides, every rig is a QRP rig in part. 
The higher power rigs start out with a low power generation section, and 
step it up internally.  So, a K3, or a KX3, both start out at QRP levels. 
If that low power section isn't proper, everything after that will be crap 
as well.  So, everything in the chain needs to be operating within design 
limits.  whether the step up is internal, or external, it still needs to be 
in compliance with requirements.  You can hook a KX2 up to a KXPA100 up to a 
KPA500, and it sounds just fine--provided you don't get greedy!


Most of the bad signals I hear are, I think, because someone is running 
things at "maximum'!  There just seems to be a thirst for squeezing out the 
last watt, running the audio gain too high, or too much compression, 
whatever.  Maybe the regulatory limits aren't severe enough, but if you 
don't push things too hard, I don't think you hear much of a problem.  These 
days I don't hear that many rigs that sound bad unless there is some 
operator error involved.  You used to hear a lot more of it that was not 
self imposed.  Then again, some folks want a level of perfection that may 
not be all that realistic.


Dave W7AQK





From: Rick WA6NHC 

You're correct.  But in fairness, those items should be based on a
standard output power (not everyone wants QRP) and we already know that
you're the only company concerned about those points and you're the
clear winner.  ;-)

As I had said, it's more than numbers.  There are many other factors
involved in the 'test'.  Sheer numbers only tell the science side of the
operation; useless if you have to go through layers of menu to make a
frequent adjustment.

To me, knowing how clean a transmitter is should be on the list as well,
what crud does it produce at a given output, in all modes. While some
don't care they spread all over the band, I'd rather put the energy into
a CLEAN signal to concentrate that one extra erg to make the contact.
It's also about being a good neighbor; do unto others...  ;-)

Rick nhc 


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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Support email

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

I have a helper at my computer. He is a little corduroy pig called Pablo. He
has been with me since my Hewlett-Packard days in the 1980's. He squeaks
when squeezed. He fits in my hand. Whenever something on the internet isn't
working I go to Pablo, pick him up, squeeze him for a few squeaks, perhaps
toss him in the air a few times. Rub his ears. 

I have always been amazed at how often he 'fixes' whatever was plugging up
the system because when I set him down everything works. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Eric
Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2017 4:51 PM
To: Doug Person; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Support email

supp...@elecraft.com was down for 5-10 minutes mid-day today for
maintenance.

If you got a bounce message, or we have nor replied within 24 hours, please
resend your message. (Or also, feel free to call us at 831-763-4211.)

73,
Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 3/8/2017 2:37 PM, Doug Person wrote:
> My emails to supp...@elecraft.com are bouncing.
>
> "The response from the remote server was:
>
> The partner did not specify the domain to relay the email"
>
>
> Doug -- K0DXV
>
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> eric.swa...@elecraft.com

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Jim Brown]

I can tell you that being on the other side of that kind of QSO can be 
painful, even with something as simple as a contest exchange.  From that 
point of view, the paddle is acceptable only if you can send about as 
fast as RTTY.  Not a lot of hams can. :)


73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,3/8/2017 7:42 PM, Don Pomplun wrote:
I'm hoping hat I can use the K3S sound card hardware & PC software for 
the receive side, and use the paddle CW interface as the transmit 
side.  Any experience in the group with doing that? 



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Don Pomplun]

I'm hoping hat I can use the K3S sound card hardware & PC software for 
the receive side, and use the paddle CW interface as the transmit side.  
Any experience in the group with doing that?


Don   K2BIO



On 03/08/2017 07:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


> For those using the K3, get an external soundcard, even an inexpensive
> one and use the K3's VOX - it will perform better and with lower noise
> than the Signalink.

And it will not require that the sound car transmit level be turned to
the maximum as is the case with Signalink (read their instructions).
By running the sound card transmit level at no more than 80% the TX
audio is generally *significantly* cleaner because the sound card audio
chain is not being driven into clipping.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/8/2017 6:50 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Actually, the K3 has isolation for the Line In and Line Out signals, and
no interface is required for digital modes.  Just a computer soundcard
and good quality audio cables so they do not pick up hum, buzz and
noise.  PTT is not required either, use VOX.  Actually, the Signalink
PTT is derived from the audio stream - so in effect, the Signalink has
its own simplistic VOX which activates its PTT output.

For those using the K3, get an external soundcard, even an inexpensive
one and use the K3's VOX - it will perform better and with lower noise
than the Signalink.

For the K3S and a K3 that has the new KIO3B option installed, everything
is the same, except the "external soundcard" (as seen by the computer
application) is built into the K3/K3S and no audio cables are involved.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/8/2017 6:18 PM, Don Pomplun wrote:
like the SignalLink USB.

Am I correct so far?
So then fig 10-14 (Fred's book) gives me the impression that with this
hookup, I can then run any RTTY software on the PC and the PC to K3S
interfacing is all taken care of, right?

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Re: [Elecraft] Birdies

[Ken G Kopp]

Obvious questions 

Do the birdies (mostly) go away when the antenna is disconnected?  Could
they be coming from in-house sources?

Are they there when the receiver is operated (on a battery) away from
potential sources?

73!

K0PP

On Mar 8, 2017 18:38, "GRANT YOUNGMAN"  wrote:

> I LOVE my K3 … It’s the best radio I’ve owned (and I’ve owned
> many/most/all of the very best)., except on AM where my old Orion/Orion II
> (the ones I sold to buy the K3) were much better … but that’s a different
> issue.  (And E’craft won’t “formally" deal with it).   Everything else
> about the K3 is FAR superior.
>
> After, I don’t know 8-9 years of ownership ..  ALL (and I do mean ALL)
> hardware/software updates have been applied, including the new K3S boards
> that have been made available.  So it’s as up to date as possible.
> Still — the age old issue of “birdies” has been an elusive problem to
> solve.
>
> Just for the record .. I have 2x KYSYN3A’s installed, a subreciever, and
> the other usual updated stuff.  I’ve fiddled for hours with the birdie
> removal routines in firmware.  And yet — they’re everywhere.  Most are low
> enough in signal strength to ignore — but there are many LOUD ones here and
> there on 80/4020/and elsewhere that are just “there”.  Nothing really
> helps.  I just spent an evening fiddling with cable placement AGAIN, to no
> avail.
>
> I’ve followed carefully all of the cable routing instructions provided by
> Elecraft.  To no real effect.
>
> So my question is — has anyone found a SOLUTION??  I’m considering sending
> my radio to CA, but I'm concerned that after spending the $$$ to do that I
> won’t be any better off.
>
> To be clear — this isn’t a deal killer by any stretch  … just looking for
> input.
>
> Grant NQ5T
> K3 #2091, KX3 #8342
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Birdies

[ab2tc]

Hi,

Can you give me a list (frequencies) of your worst birdies and I will check
if I have them. In general I have not found many bothersome birdies in the
K3S, but there are some. If I don't have them, there is clearly something
wrong with your radio which may warrant a return to Elecraft. BTW, I don't
have much faith in firmware birdie removal. It certainly doesn't remove
birdies in the panadapter display (LP-Pan and NaP3 in my case).

AB2TC - Knut


Grant Youngman-2 wrote
> I LOVE my K3 … It’s the best radio I’ve owned (and I’ve owned
> many/most/all of the very best)., except on AM where my old Orion/Orion II
> (the ones I sold to buy the K3) were much better … but that’s a different
> issue.  (And E’craft won’t “formally" deal with it).   Everything else
> about the K3 is FAR superior.
>  
> After, I don’t know 8-9 years of ownership ..  ALL (and I do mean ALL)
> hardware/software updates have been applied, including the new K3S boards
> that have been made available.  So it’s as up to date as possible.  
> Still — the age old issue of “birdies” has been an elusive problem to
> solve.
> 
> Just for the record .. I have 2x KYSYN3A’s installed, a subreciever, and
> the other usual updated stuff.  I’ve fiddled for hours with the birdie
> removal routines in firmware.  And yet — they’re everywhere.  Most are low
> enough in signal strength to ignore — but there are many LOUD ones here
> and there on 80/4020/and elsewhere that are just “there”.  Nothing really
> helps.  I just spent an evening fiddling with cable placement AGAIN, to no
> avail.
> 
> I’ve followed carefully all of the cable routing instructions provided by
> Elecraft.  To no real effect.
> 
> So my question is — has anyone found a SOLUTION??  I’m considering sending
> my radio to CA, but I'm concerned that after spending the $$$ to do that I
> won’t be any better off.
> 
> To be clear — this isn’t a deal killer by any stretch  … just looking for
> input.
> 
> Grant NQ5T
> K3 #2091, KX3 #8342
> 





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[Elecraft] Birdies

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

I LOVE my K3 … It’s the best radio I’ve owned (and I’ve owned many/most/all of 
the very best)., except on AM where my old Orion/Orion II (the ones I sold to 
buy the K3) were much better … but that’s a different issue.  (And E’craft 
won’t “formally" deal with it).   Everything else about the K3 is FAR superior.
 
After, I don’t know 8-9 years of ownership ..  ALL (and I do mean ALL) 
hardware/software updates have been applied, including the new K3S boards that 
have been made available.  So it’s as up to date as possible.  
Still — the age old issue of “birdies” has been an elusive problem to solve.

Just for the record .. I have 2x KYSYN3A’s installed, a subreciever, and the 
other usual updated stuff.  I’ve fiddled for hours with the birdie removal 
routines in firmware.  And yet — they’re everywhere.  Most are low enough in 
signal strength to ignore — but there are many LOUD ones here and there on 
80/4020/and elsewhere that are just “there”.  Nothing really helps.  I just 
spent an evening fiddling with cable placement AGAIN, to no avail.

I’ve followed carefully all of the cable routing instructions provided by 
Elecraft.  To no real effect.

So my question is — has anyone found a SOLUTION??  I’m considering sending my 
radio to CA, but I'm concerned that after spending the $$$ to do that I won’t 
be any better off.

To be clear — this isn’t a deal killer by any stretch  … just looking for input.

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342



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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Walter Underwood]

> On Mar 8, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> Looking at the fundamentals (not often learned by some RF engineers, and 
> almost never by digital engineers)...

Somewhat related story, I studied DSP at Rice University. When interviewing for 
a job (which I got), my future boss asked why on Earth I had taken an analog 
filters course. I told him that I knew how digital filters worked, and I wanted 
to know the analog side. I guess that was good enough for him, even though he 
had worked to make that course non-required when he was a professor.

Also, my digital circuits prof was a working engineer at TI. His mantra was 
“digital circuits are made of analog components”.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Support email

[Doug Person]

Bad timing I guess.

Thanks Eric.

Doug -- K0DXV

On 3/8/2017 5:51 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
supp...@elecraft.com was down for 5-10 minutes mid-day today for 
maintenance.


If you got a bounce message, or we have nor replied within 24 hours, 
please resend your message. (Or also, feel free to call us at 
831-763-4211.)


73,
Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 3/8/2017 2:37 PM, Doug Person wrote:

My emails to supp...@elecraft.com are bouncing.

"The response from the remote server was:

The partner did not specify the domain to relay the email"


Doug -- K0DXV

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> Wider BW in QRM will too.

Only to the extent that the QRM causes AGC pumping or overdrives the
signal chain (receiver IF, detector, sound card) causing IMD.  RTTY
decoding software like Chen's cocoaModem, David's 2-Tone and even
Mori-san's MMTTY have extremely tight MARK/SPACE filtering capable
of rejecting signals even 100 Hz away and nothing (not even tight IF
filters) will reject an overlapping signal.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/8/2017 7:35 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

Having designed digital decoders BR [Before Retirement] on various
channels including HF, we found exactly what Ed said to be true, both in
corrected and uncorrected channels.  The less AGC compression on HF
channels, the better the decode.  However, adjusting AGC parameters on
many military HF radios was a lot harder than on the K3. [:-)  And, for
what it's worth, any BW less than about 300 Hz, and better 350 Hz, is
going to degrade the decoder's capability at 45.5 baud ITA-2.  Wider BW
in QRM will too.  It's an engineering trade-off.

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/8/2017 2:39 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

This is a very interesting post Ed! I will definitely will try these AGC
settings in the next RTTY contest.

John KK9A - W4AAA


Ed Muns w0yk said:
Tue Mar 7 21:48:52 EST 2017

Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the
author
of CocoaModem.

Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15
years
concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.
If my
ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.

Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes
in DX
locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better
most of
the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
Dual-Tone filter.

Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.

Ed W0YK
__

G3YYD, 0210:

Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow.

The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time.

They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over
about
one character time before and after the character being decoded. They
then
combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on
their
individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about
half a
second).

For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or
slow AGC
makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
chewing - slow.

As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts
of a
RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal
into the
adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally
tend
to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The
filters in a
modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation
than
the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for
human
hearing limitations not that of the decoder.

73 David G3YYD
__



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> For those using the K3, get an external soundcard, even an inexpensive
> one and use the K3's VOX - it will perform better and with lower noise
> than the Signalink.

And it will not require that the sound car transmit level be turned to
the maximum as is the case with Signalink (read their instructions).
By running the sound card transmit level at no more than 80% the TX
audio is generally *significantly* cleaner because the sound card audio
chain is not being driven into clipping.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/8/2017 6:50 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Actually, the K3 has isolation for the Line In and Line Out signals, and
no interface is required for digital modes.  Just a computer soundcard
and good quality audio cables so they do not pick up hum, buzz and
noise.  PTT is not required either, use VOX.  Actually, the Signalink
PTT is derived from the audio stream - so in effect, the Signalink has
its own simplistic VOX which activates its PTT output.

For those using the K3, get an external soundcard, even an inexpensive
one and use the K3's VOX - it will perform better and with lower noise
than the Signalink.

For the K3S and a K3 that has the new KIO3B option installed, everything
is the same, except the "external soundcard" (as seen by the computer
application) is built into the K3/K3S and no audio cables are involved.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/8/2017 6:18 PM, Don Pomplun wrote:
like the SignalLink USB.

Am I correct so far?
So then fig 10-14 (Fred's book) gives me the impression that with this
hookup, I can then run any RTTY software on the PC and the PC to K3S
interfacing is all taken care of, right?

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Support email

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

supp...@elecraft.com was down for 5-10 minutes mid-day today for maintenance.

If you got a bounce message, or we have nor replied within 24 hours, please 
resend your message. (Or also, feel free to call us at 831-763-4211.)


73,
Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 3/8/2017 2:37 PM, Doug Person wrote:

My emails to supp...@elecraft.com are bouncing.

"The response from the remote server was:

The partner did not specify the domain to relay the email"


Doug -- K0DXV

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Jim Brown]

Looking at the fundamentals (not often learned by some RF engineers, and 
almost never by digital engineers) any variation in the amplitude 
response of a system is accompanied by variation in the phase response. 
Ears don't like it, and decoders don't like it. Those engineers urging 
wide bandwidth for RTTY know those fundamentals.


73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,3/8/2017 4:35 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
The less AGC compression on HF channels, the better the decode.  
However, adjusting AGC parameters on many military HF radios was a lot 
harder than on the K3. [:-)  And, for what it's worth, any BW less 
than about 300 Hz, and better 350 Hz, is going to degrade the 
decoder's capability at 45.5 baud ITA-2.  Wider BW in QRM will too.  
It's an engineering trade-off. 



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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Fred Jensen]

Having designed digital decoders BR [Before Retirement] on various 
channels including HF, we found exactly what Ed said to be true, both in 
corrected and uncorrected channels.  The less AGC compression on HF 
channels, the better the decode.  However, adjusting AGC parameters on 
many military HF radios was a lot harder than on the K3. [:-)  And, for 
what it's worth, any BW less than about 300 Hz, and better 350 Hz, is 
going to degrade the decoder's capability at 45.5 baud ITA-2.  Wider BW 
in QRM will too.  It's an engineering trade-off.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/8/2017 2:39 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

This is a very interesting post Ed! I will definitely will try these AGC
settings in the next RTTY contest.

John KK9A - W4AAA


Ed Muns w0yk said:
Tue Mar 7 21:48:52 EST 2017

Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the author
of CocoaModem.

Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15 years
concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.  If my
ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.

Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes in DX
locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better most of
the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
Dual-Tone filter.

Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.

Ed W0YK
__

G3YYD, 0210:

Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow.

The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time.

They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over about
one character time before and after the character being decoded. They then
combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on their
individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about half a
second).

For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or slow AGC
makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
chewing - slow.

As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts of a
RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal into the
adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally tend
to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The filters in a
modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation than
the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for human
hearing limitations not that of the decoder.

73 David G3YYD
__



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Don Wilhelm]

Actually, the K3 has isolation for the Line In and Line Out signals, and 
no interface is required for digital modes.  Just a computer soundcard 
and good quality audio cables so they do not pick up hum, buzz and 
noise.  PTT is not required either, use VOX.  Actually, the Signalink 
PTT is derived from the audio stream - so in effect, the Signalink has 
its own simplistic VOX which activates its PTT output.


For those using the K3, get an external soundcard, even an inexpensive 
one and use the K3's VOX - it will perform better and with lower noise 
than the Signalink.


For the K3S and a K3 that has the new KIO3B option installed, everything 
is the same, except the "external soundcard" (as seen by the computer 
application) is built into the K3/K3S and no audio cables are involved.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/8/2017 6:18 PM, Don Pomplun wrote:
like the SignalLink USB.

Am I correct so far?
So then fig 10-14 (Fred's book) gives me the impression that with this
hookup, I can then run any RTTY software on the PC and the PC to K3S
interfacing is all taken care of, right?

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Don Wilhelm]

Don,

The K3S built in soundcard will relieve you from the cabling problems 
associated with an external soundcard (or Signalink which is actually a 
single channel external soundcard).


It will not relieve you of the "level tweaking" because the K3S CODEC is 
nothing more than a soundcard built into the K3S - the same audio level 
adjustments that would be used for another external (or internal) 
soundcard still have to be manipulated.  To the computer, the K3S 
internal soundcard is "just another external (to the computer) soundcard".


The terminology depends on whether you are looking at it from the 
computer side or the K3S side.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/8/2017 6:18 PM, Don Pomplun wrote:

TNX for all the helpful replies.  A few referred to the K3S's "built-in
sound card", which I didn't think was correct.  But reading Fred's K3
book (p.165) I get the impression that this is indeed the case,
presumably eliminating all the fiddling with audio interfacing and level
tweaking that would be necessary if using either the PC's sound card, or
an external unit like the SignalLink USB.
Am I correct so far?

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Yes.  RTTY, or PSK-31, or JT65, or JT9, or AX.25, or Throb, or Olivia, 
or MFSK-16, or.


73 -- Lynn

On 3/8/2017 3:18 PM, Don Pomplun wrote:
So then fig 10-14 (Fred's book) gives me the impression that with this 
hookup, I can then run any RTTY software on the PC and the PC to K3S 
interfacing is all taken care of, right? 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Barry]

Don,

Your inference is right on. You CAN run any digital software that 
will play with a USB external sound card. The card in the K3s will show 
up as an external card. That is exactly what I do and is one of the 
reasons I bought my  K3s. I freed up some desk space by not having to 
continue to use my SignaLink USB.


73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Don Pomplun" 
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 3/8/2017 6:18:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

TNX for all the helpful replies.  A few referred to the K3S's "built-in 
sound card", which I didn't think was correct.  But reading Fred's K3 
book (p.165) I get the impression that this is indeed the case, 
presumably eliminating all the fiddling with audio interfacing and 
level tweaking that would be necessary if using either the PC's sound 
card, or an external unit like the SignalLink USB.

Am I correct so far?
So then fig 10-14 (Fred's book) gives me the impression that with this 
hookup, I can then run any RTTY software on the PC and the PC to K3S 
interfacing is all taken care of, right?


TIA
Don   K2BIO



On 03/08/2017 05:13 PM, ab4iqkf4cxo wrote:

I use the USB port on my to K3S's and MMTTY couldn't be simpler.

ED.. AB4IQ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of 
Don

Pomplun
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

I've just started playing with RTTY with my K3S using the "built-in"
capabilities for decoding and the Utility program.  I'm still at the 
stage

of fiddling with the little lines to tune in a RTTY signal properly.

For you experienced RTTY'ers, is the built-in capability considered on 
a par
with using a separate sound card interface and separate RTTY PC 
software, or

is it just a nice beginner's intro?

73,

Don   K2BIO

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Message

delivered to ab...@comcast.net



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[Elecraft] KIO3 Board

[Ed Gray W0SD]

I now have a KIO3 board!  Thanks


I have a K3 #3423 and I need a KIO3 audio board.  I don't want to go to 
the KIO3B stuff.  Does anyone have one I could buy?

You can contact me off list.

Ed W0SD
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Don Pomplun]

TNX for all the helpful replies.  A few referred to the K3S's "built-in 
sound card", which I didn't think was correct.  But reading Fred's K3 
book (p.165) I get the impression that this is indeed the case, 
presumably eliminating all the fiddling with audio interfacing and level 
tweaking that would be necessary if using either the PC's sound card, or 
an external unit like the SignalLink USB.

Am I correct so far?
So then fig 10-14 (Fred's book) gives me the impression that with this 
hookup, I can then run any RTTY software on the PC and the PC to K3S 
interfacing is all taken care of, right?


TIA
Don   K2BIO



On 03/08/2017 05:13 PM, ab4iqkf4cxo wrote:

I use the USB port on my to K3S's and MMTTY couldn't be simpler.

ED.. AB4IQ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don
Pomplun
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

I've just started playing with RTTY with my K3S using the "built-in"
capabilities for decoding and the Utility program.  I'm still at the stage
of fiddling with the little lines to tune in a RTTY signal properly.

For you experienced RTTY'ers, is the built-in capability considered on a par
with using a separate sound card interface and separate RTTY PC software, or
is it just a nice beginner's intro?

73,

Don   K2BIO

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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Support email

[Don Wilhelm]

Doug,

I don't know what is going on with that particular email address, but 
try k3supp...@elecraft.com - it all goes to the same place.
Elecraft has recently changed their email structure (should be no impact 
to the customer), but there may be a temporary glitch in the system.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/8/2017 5:37 PM, Doug Person wrote:

My emails to supp...@elecraft.com are bouncing.

"The response from the remote server was:

The partner did not specify the domain to relay the email"

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[Elecraft] K3- Separate AGC settings needed for: CW, SSB, RTTY

[ANDY NEHAN]

I agree that an AGC which can be set by mode would be useful, but I suspect 
that the chaps have multiple requests for enhancements!
Andy G4HUE
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[Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[j...@kk9a.com]

This is a very interesting post Ed! I will definitely will try these AGC
settings in the next RTTY contest.

John KK9A - W4AAA


Ed Muns w0yk said:
Tue Mar 7 21:48:52 EST 2017

Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the author
of CocoaModem.

Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15 years
concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.  If my
ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.

Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes in DX
locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better most of
the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
Dual-Tone filter.

Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.

Ed W0YK
__

G3YYD, 0210:

Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow.

The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time.

They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over about
one character time before and after the character being decoded. They then
combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on their
individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about half a
second).

For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or slow AGC
makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
chewing - slow.

As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts of a
RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal into the
adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally tend
to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The filters in a
modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation than
the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for human
hearing limitations not that of the decoder.

73 David G3YYD
__

W7AY, 1015:

If you are willing to manually ride the RF/IF gain controls, "AGC off" is
best.

As David G3YYD has pointed out, you need the "gains" of the Mark and Space
tones to be perfectly equal.  Under poor SNR but good propagation
conditions, 0.5 dB of imbalance will cause noticeable harm in the error
rates.

Basically, you want the gains between the mark (M) and space (S) bits to be
constant.  The strength of the composite signal (M+S) need not be constant.

Together with proper filters (narrow enough to avoid QRM while adding no
intersymbol interference), slicing (deciding whether mark or space has
arrived) is an equally important aspect of FSK demodulator design.  You can
easily make the case that the slicer becomes more important when conditions
are poorer.

The slicer decides whether the mark signal or the space signal is greater at
each bit period.

Good demodulators take care of slicer imbalances by the use of "automatic
threshold correction" (ATC) circuits or software code.  You can also use FM
techniques to get around mark/space imbalance, but that creates more
problems that it solves -- that is why good demodulators nowadays use two
individual "AM" demodulators.

It is always best to present to the demodulator with a signal that has as
little possible tone imbalance so that the ATC has the least amount of work
to do.

This way, you minimize the problems that the demodulator has to overcome.

Thus, you would rather have AGC that does not keep the amplitude perfectly
constant, as long as the two tones have the same amplitudes.   Remember, the
key is to have no imbalance.  The two tones must fluctuate by the same
amount.

Good A/D converters (sound cards) provide dozens of dB worth of dynamic
range to handle fading.  Just keep remembering that RTTY demodulation
depends on SNR and not on signal strength.  Receiver requirements are very
different from voice or CW modes.

The ATC circuit has to work really, really hard (and fails often) when the
AGC is fast enough to be affected by the tone amplitudes fluctuating
independently.  The AGC time constant must therefore be much longer than a
bit period.  Even an AGC time constant that is around 176 ms (character
period of RTTY) already pose problems.

Thus "AGC off" is the best, and if you are not willing to constantly ride
the 

[Elecraft] Elecraft Support email

[Doug Person]

My emails to supp...@elecraft.com are bouncing.

"The response from the remote server was:

The partner did not specify the domain to relay the email"


Doug -- K0DXV

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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Peter Lambert]

Do you not like the KX2 compressor ?, don't use it ?, so much so that you
take the TT-715 along portable or at home strictly ?.

Interested in your observations.  If there is such a huge difference in
compressors I think certain gents that monitor this list might see that as a
challenge.

73's Peter VK4JD

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ignacy
Sent: Thursday, 9 March 2017 7:12 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

I think the Sherwood ranking to KX2 means nothing unless you have a KW amp
(e.g., Expert 1.3k after mods) and run it in a contest or DXpeditions. After
all, nobody will hear you. Also nobody will hear your IMD3 except your next
door neighbor. 

The biggest values of a QRP radio are:
1) convenience including good antenna tuner
2) well compressed signal on SSB if on phone

If KX2 is like KX3, big yes to 1) and not much to 2). But you can always buy
TT-715 and increase the punch of KX2 in SSB by 2-4 times.

Ignacy, NO9E






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View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/KX2-and-Sherwood-Eng-RX-Performance-Ran
king-tp7627760p7627775.html
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[Elecraft] K3- Separate AGC settings needed for: CW, SSB, RTTY

[Dick via Elecraft]

Ed's message is another confirmation on why it would be really great  if 
Elecraft would modify the K3 software so the MENU would allow  us to select 
separate AGC settings for: CW, SSB, and RTTY.  
 
I realize this may be a first, but Elecraft is good at leading the  pack!
 
73,
Dick- K9OM
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/8/2017 3:54:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net writes:

Below is  a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks,  G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the 
author
of  CocoaModem. 

Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over  the past 15 years
concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder  performance.  If 
my
ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't  tolerate AGC Off, then I use
AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or  higher.

Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz  except in
extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter  sometimes in 
DX
locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz  decodes better most of
the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also  implies turning off the K3
Dual-Tone filter.

Both of these points  (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
intuitive, especially for  an experienced CW operator.

Ed  W0YK

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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Scott Mcdonald via Elecraft]

The KX2 was pretty thoroughly reviewed by Peter Hart in the January 2017 
edition of RadCom.

Without trying to reproduce the receiver data tables, some representative 
numbers are:

3.5 MHz close in IMD (500 Hz bandwidth, 2 kHz spacing with preamp off) yielded 
a 3rd order intercept of +15 dBm and 2 tone dynamic range of 91dB.

Same thing at 50 khz spacing was 28.5 dBm and 100 dB preamp off with numbers 
dropping to 9 dBm and 96 dB with preamp on.

Mine seems pretty much like my KX3.

Maybe Wayne or Eric can get permission to post the review on the site if they 
have had a chance to vet it by now. 
  
Apologies to anyone if I didn't get something exactly right or if the 
spellchecker got it, I'm literally at the park with my KX2 catching up on some 
reading in 50 mph wind gusts, but it's 52 and sunny!

73 Scott Ka9p
Make something good happen!

> On Mar 8, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Mike Morrow  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Can't say for sure but doubt it has been reviewed yet. It is still 
>> pretty new.
> 
> It's been on the market for ten months...long enough for a popular rig to be 
> reviewed.
> 
> There's been nothing in QST's product reviews either.
> 
> But then, Elecraft has not released much technical information either...still 
> no schematics for the typical customer.
> 
> Mike / KK5F
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Phil Hystad]

I have ONLY operated QRP and 10 watts with my KX3 and that is all I plan to do 
with my KX2.
Operating QRP with a compromise antenna is a challenge and it is fun.  I am 
surprised that more
people do not love this.

Of course CW only!

73, phil, K7PEH

> I think the Sherwood ranking to KX2 means nothing unless you have a KW amp
> (e.g., Expert 1.3k after mods) and run it in a contest or DXpeditions. After
> all, nobody will hear you. Also nobody will hear your IMD3 except your next
> door neighbor. 
> 
> The biggest values of a QRP radio are:
> 1) convenience including good antenna tuner
> 2) well compressed signal on SSB if on phone
> 
> If KX2 is like KX3, big yes to 1) and not much to 2). But you can always buy
> TT-715 and increase the punch of KX2 in SSB by 2-4 times.
> 
> Ignacy, NO9E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/KX2-and-Sherwood-Eng-RX-Performance-Ranking-tp7627760p7627775.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Ignacy]

I think the Sherwood ranking to KX2 means nothing unless you have a KW amp
(e.g., Expert 1.3k after mods) and run it in a contest or DXpeditions. After
all, nobody will hear you. Also nobody will hear your IMD3 except your next
door neighbor. 

The biggest values of a QRP radio are:
1) convenience including good antenna tuner
2) well compressed signal on SSB if on phone

If KX2 is like KX3, big yes to 1) and not much to 2). But you can always buy
TT-715 and increase the punch of KX2 in SSB by 2-4 times.

Ignacy, NO9E






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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Phil Hystad]

> You're correct.  But in fairness, those items should be based on a standard 
> output power (not everyone wants QRP) and we already know that you're the 
> only company concerned about those points and you're the clear winner.  ;-)
> 

Actually, I think many if not most ham operators want the opposite.  The 
biggest and heaviest rig.  Look at what Icom did with their 7800, look at that 
Yaesu Beast of a radio, what is it, the FT-DX9000 or is that 9.  Putting a 
brick on the back of a KX2 might be good for a sales gimmick  “Buy me, I’m 
heavy".

By the way, my KX2 is on order — still waiting for Elecraft to say “its 
shipped”.

73, phil, K7PEH



> As I had said, it's more than numbers.  There are many other factors involved 
> in the 'test'.  Sheer numbers only tell the science side of the operation; 
> useless if you have to go through layers of menu to make a frequent 
> adjustment.
> 
> To me, knowing how clean a transmitter is should be on the list as well, what 
> crud does it produce at a given output, in all modes. While some don't care 
> they spread all over the band, I'd rather put the energy into a CLEAN signal 
> to concentrate that one extra erg to make the contact.  It's also about being 
> a good neighbor; do unto others...  ;-)
> 
> Rick nhc
> 
> 
> On 3/8/2017 12:45 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Too bad Rob's table doesn't have columns for size, weight, or current drain. 
>> I think the KX2 might have the lowest numbers in all three categories.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Rick WA6NHC  wrote:
>> 
>>> Remember that Rob is usually LOANed a radio (by an individual or 
>>> manufacturer) for an extended period of time.  In a very few cases, he 
>>> buys/owns the radio.
>>> 
>>> I know of few that would loan out their brand new radio for a month or more 
>>> instead of actually using it.
>>> 
>>> So if someone wants to loan Rob their KX2, I'm sure he's happy to test it, 
>>> try it out etc.  It's not just a simple bench test, he uses it and makes 
>>> comments based on science as well as being a DXer/contester user of the 
>>> radio.  Testing alone doesn't determine control placement or ease for 
>>> example.
>>> 
>>> Rick wa6nhc
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 3/8/2017 12:27 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:
> Can't say for sure but doubt it has been reviewed yet. It is still
> pretty new.
 It's been on the market for ten months...long enough for a popular rig to 
 be reviewed.
 
 There's been nothing in QST's product reviews either.
 
 But then, Elecraft has not released much technical information 
 either...still no schematics for the typical customer.
 
 Mike / KK5F
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>>> Message delivered to n...@elecraft.com
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Rick WA6NHC]

You're correct.  But in fairness, those items should be based on a 
standard output power (not everyone wants QRP) and we already know that 
you're the only company concerned about those points and you're the 
clear winner.  ;-)


As I had said, it's more than numbers.  There are many other factors 
involved in the 'test'.  Sheer numbers only tell the science side of the 
operation; useless if you have to go through layers of menu to make a 
frequent adjustment.


To me, knowing how clean a transmitter is should be on the list as well, 
what crud does it produce at a given output, in all modes. While some 
don't care they spread all over the band, I'd rather put the energy into 
a CLEAN signal to concentrate that one extra erg to make the contact.  
It's also about being a good neighbor; do unto others...  ;-)


Rick nhc


On 3/8/2017 12:45 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Too bad Rob's table doesn't have columns for size, weight, or current drain. I 
think the KX2 might have the lowest numbers in all three categories.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Rick WA6NHC  wrote:


Remember that Rob is usually LOANed a radio (by an individual or manufacturer) 
for an extended period of time.  In a very few cases, he buys/owns the radio.

I know of few that would loan out their brand new radio for a month or more 
instead of actually using it.

So if someone wants to loan Rob their KX2, I'm sure he's happy to test it, try 
it out etc.  It's not just a simple bench test, he uses it and makes comments 
based on science as well as being a DXer/contester user of the radio.  Testing 
alone doesn't determine control placement or ease for example.

Rick wa6nhc


On 3/8/2017 12:27 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:

Can't say for sure but doubt it has been reviewed yet. It is still
pretty new.

It's been on the market for ten months...long enough for a popular rig to be 
reviewed.

There's been nothing in QST's product reviews either.

But then, Elecraft has not released much technical information either...still 
no schematics for the typical customer.

Mike / KK5F

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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Wayne Burdick]

Too bad Rob's table doesn't have columns for size, weight, or current drain. I 
think the KX2 might have the lowest numbers in all three categories. 

73,
Wayne
N6KR



On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:40 PM, Rick WA6NHC  wrote:

> Remember that Rob is usually LOANed a radio (by an individual or 
> manufacturer) for an extended period of time.  In a very few cases, he 
> buys/owns the radio.
> 
> I know of few that would loan out their brand new radio for a month or more 
> instead of actually using it.
> 
> So if someone wants to loan Rob their KX2, I'm sure he's happy to test it, 
> try it out etc.  It's not just a simple bench test, he uses it and makes 
> comments based on science as well as being a DXer/contester user of the 
> radio.  Testing alone doesn't determine control placement or ease for example.
> 
> Rick wa6nhc
> 
> 
> On 3/8/2017 12:27 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:
>>> Can't say for sure but doubt it has been reviewed yet. It is still
>>> pretty new.
>> It's been on the market for ten months...long enough for a popular rig to be 
>> reviewed.
>> 
>> There's been nothing in QST's product reviews either.
>> 
>> But then, Elecraft has not released much technical information 
>> either...still no schematics for the typical customer.
>> 
>> Mike / KK5F
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Rick WA6NHC]

Remember that Rob is usually LOANed a radio (by an individual or 
manufacturer) for an extended period of time.  In a very few cases, he 
buys/owns the radio.


I know of few that would loan out their brand new radio for a month or 
more instead of actually using it.


So if someone wants to loan Rob their KX2, I'm sure he's happy to test 
it, try it out etc.  It's not just a simple bench test, he uses it and 
makes comments based on science as well as being a DXer/contester user 
of the radio.  Testing alone doesn't determine control placement or ease 
for example.


Rick wa6nhc


On 3/8/2017 12:27 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:

Can't say for sure but doubt it has been reviewed yet. It is still
pretty new.

It's been on the market for ten months...long enough for a popular rig to be 
reviewed.

There's been nothing in QST's product reviews either.

But then, Elecraft has not released much technical information either...still 
no schematics for the typical customer.

Mike / KK5F


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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Mike Morrow]

> Can't say for sure but doubt it has been reviewed yet. It is still 
> pretty new.

It's been on the market for ten months...long enough for a popular rig to be 
reviewed.

There's been nothing in QST's product reviews either.

But then, Elecraft has not released much technical information either...still 
no schematics for the typical customer.

Mike / KK5F
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[Elecraft] For Sale RemoteRig 1258 MkII

[Brian D. Comer]

For Sale: RemoteRig  1258 MkII set with wifi added + Cables and RRC Micro
Client.  Like new condition  used very little  total cost was $909.75  from
Elecraft and HRO Asking $720. Will break out parts if there is interest.

If interested please contact me directly, off the reflector. 

73 

Brian 

KF6C

 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Bill Frantz]

In the CQ WPX RTTY contest I ran RUMlog's contest logger which 
uses the K3 programming interface to encode and decode RTTY*. I 
also ran cocoaModem using the KIO3B's "sound card"#. I used its 
crossed loop indicator for tuning and occasionally looked at its 
decode. The combination worked quite well.


In summary, the internal decode works quite well. I haven't 
tried the internal encode, not having room on my desk for 
another keyboard and being terrible with a paddle.


73 Bill AE6JV

* When using the internal K3 decoder through the programming 
interface, it is necessary to turn off the decode display on the 
P3's SVGA display. Some part of the Elecraft system runs out of 
CPU horsepower and the result is severe character loss on both 
the PC and on the SVGA.


# My K3 has all the upgrade boards Elecraft has released. It is 
almost a K3S.


---
Bill Frantz| If the site is supported by  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | ads, you are the product.| 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Matt Murphy]

I would guess that it will perform nearly identically to a high serial
number KX3, but it would be great to see some actual test results.

73, Matt NQ6N

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Mike Rhodes  wrote:

> Can't say for sure but doubt it has been reviewed yet. It is still pretty
> new.
>
> Mike / W8DN
>
> On 3/8/2017 12:58 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>
>> I looked and I couldn’t find it.  The KX2 being covered by the Sherwood
>> Engineering Performance Rank table.  Does anyone know if this is purposely
>> skipped over for some reason, not covered yet, or is it there and I can’t
>> find it sort of thing?
>>
>> Thanks for any comments.
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Mike Rhodes]

Can't say for sure but doubt it has been reviewed yet. It is still 
pretty new.


Mike / W8DN

On 3/8/2017 12:58 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

I looked and I couldn’t find it.  The KX2 being covered by the Sherwood 
Engineering Performance Rank table.  Does anyone know if this is purposely 
skipped over for some reason, not covered yet, or is it there and I can’t find 
it sort of thing?

Thanks for any comments.

73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Jim Brown]

I can't comment on the quality of the K3S USB interface, because I don't 
own one. The decoder built into the K3 is pretty good, often as good or 
better than the software decoder.  When used with a keyboard and P3/SVGA 
setup, it's pretty good for casual operation, and even for a DX pileup. 
My neighbor, W6GJB, uses that setup for casual operation and is quite 
happy with it. He also says that he thinks the decoder built into the 
KX3 is even better!


There are several advantages though to using software decoders running 
on a computer attached to the audio stream. The major one is that you 
can choose decoder settings optimized for distortion produced by 
different kinds of propagation -- like selective fading, multi-path, and 
so on. The freeware MMTTY and 2Tone decoders are often used 
simultaneously to decode the same signal. When one decoder misses 
characters, the other often copies them fine. Contest logging programs 
WriteLog and N1MM Logger Plus make it easy to do this. Winwarbler does 
the same for non-contest operation.


I use N1MM for contest logging and WinWarbler for non-contest operation. 
Many top RTTY contesters prefer WriteLog for RTTY.


73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,3/8/2017 10:51 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



For you experienced RTTY'ers, is the built-in capability considered
on a par with using a separate sound card interface and separate RTTY
PC software,


Not even close!

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

There is a lot of great RTTY software out there, and it works with 
standard sound cards -- like the one built-in to the K3S.


73 -- Lynn

On 3/8/2017 9:10 AM, Don Pomplun wrote:
For you experienced RTTY'ers, is the built-in capability considered on 
a par with using a separate sound card interface and separate RTTY PC 
software, or is it just a nice beginner's intro?


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Dave Fugleberg]

I'm not a huge RTTY guy, but I do operate it on occasion. The big
performance difference with using a PC is that there are several decoders
available, each with different strengths. These decoders typically have a
lot of options that can be tweaked to optimize them for conditions. It's
also possible to run multiple different decoders in parallel to see which
one decodes the best at any moment.
Having said that, I typically run whatever decoder is the default in
whatever software I'm using, and seldom adjust the parameters. And, when
the K3 is set to decode RTTY on its display, it generally does a remarkable
job on its own, at least on strong signals.
So, the built in stuff works well, but doesn't provide nearly the same
flexibility as computer based software.
On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 12:52 PM Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

>
> > For you experienced RTTY'ers, is the built-in capability considered
> > on a par with using a separate sound card interface and separate RTTY
> > PC software,
>
> Not even close!
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 3/8/2017 12:10 PM, Don Pomplun wrote:
> > I've just started playing with RTTY with my K3S using the "built-in"
> > capabilities for decoding and the Utility program.  I'm still at the
> > stage of fiddling with the little lines to tune in a RTTY signal
> properly.
> >
> > For you experienced RTTY'ers, is the built-in capability considered on a
> > par with using a separate sound card interface and separate RTTY PC
> > software, or is it just a nice beginner's intro?
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Don   K2BIO
> >
> > __
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> >
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

For you experienced RTTY'ers, is the built-in capability considered
on a par with using a separate sound card interface and separate RTTY
PC software,


Not even close!

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/8/2017 12:10 PM, Don Pomplun wrote:

I've just started playing with RTTY with my K3S using the "built-in"
capabilities for decoding and the Utility program.  I'm still at the
stage of fiddling with the little lines to tune in a RTTY signal properly.

For you experienced RTTY'ers, is the built-in capability considered on a
par with using a separate sound card interface and separate RTTY PC
software, or is it just a nice beginner's intro?

73,

Don   K2BIO

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[Elecraft] KX2 and Sherwood Eng. RX Performance Ranking?

[Phil Hystad]

I looked and I couldn’t find it.  The KX2 being covered by the Sherwood 
Engineering Performance Rank table.  Does anyone know if this is purposely 
skipped over for some reason, not covered yet, or is it there and I can’t find 
it sort of thing?

Thanks for any comments.

73, phil, K7PEH

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[Elecraft] K3S's built-in RTTY

[Don Pomplun]

I've just started playing with RTTY with my K3S using the "built-in" 
capabilities for decoding and the Utility program.  I'm still at the 
stage of fiddling with the little lines to tune in a RTTY signal properly.


For you experienced RTTY'ers, is the built-in capability considered on a 
par with using a separate sound card interface and separate RTTY PC 
software, or is it just a nice beginner's intro?


73,

Don   K2BIO

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Re: [Elecraft] Augment KX3 or buy K3?

[David Anderson via Elecraft]

Morgan, you make some good points about the pros and cons, but I would take 
issue with one point, the IC-7300 is very easy to change CW speed - one click 
of the multi knob and twist it to the speed you want when you are in CW mode. 

Like all radios you have to spend a bit of time learning how to drive it to 
full, it also depends if you have used one from the same stable before, though 
the touch interface of the 7300 is slightly different and I am not sure I 
prefer it to hard buttons, but clearly that is the way future radios are going, 
viz the pre-announced but unavailable IC-7610. 

I have the KX3 with PX3 and the IC-7300 and a recent, but used, hence less 
expensive than a K3,  IC-7600 which was available at the right price, and I 
have to say that the IC-7300 has many things that make its ergonomics just 
great, in many ways better than the older IC-7600. I am in the U.K. and that 
colours my choices as Elecraft are doubly expensive here compared to the USA 
unfortunately. I paid more in the UK for my KX3 maxed out than a base K3 would 
cost in the USA, you get the picture.

They are all great rigs, it all depends how much you expect to pay for a radio 
and what you want to do with it. No manufacturer is going to sell a top end 
contest radio for $1000, so whether it the big 3 from JA or Elecraft you have 
to spend the dollar to get the best. For the money the IC-7300 is excellent and 
a  pointer to how Icom is going with their mid range , and I still prefer to 
have an IC-7300 than the money in the bank as it is such a good radio on 6m and 
4m. 

If you post on an Elecraft forum asking about another manufacturer's product 
you will get a certain reaction, same if you you posted to an Icom forum about 
the Elecraft K3S. So always take anything you read pro or con with a punch of 
salt. Best advice is to actually try the radio you think that you want to buy, 
every 2nd ham you speak to on the air appears to have an IC-7300 so it 
shouldn't be hard to find one to try out.

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 8 Mar 2017, at 14:29, Morgan Bailey  wrote:
> 
> If you are even marginally serious about operating around other rigs (field
> day), forget using the 7300. It does not have the necessary filtering to be
> useful in that environment. Forget CW pileups with the 7300. The comment on
> buttons is rather laughable when you mention the 7300, one knob and
> infinite menus even to just change the CW speed. 1200$ for a 7300 is best
> spent sitting in the bank. The KX3 blows it away. If you can pick up a 7300
> for 750$ then go for it but understand it is not an Elecraft. You are
> buying a bells and whistles radio and not a contest grade by any means
> communication grade radio.
> 
> As for the 7610, it is all promises and yet to be totally revealed. If it
> is even half the rig that people are saying it is, well, good stuff does
> not come cheap. Expect a 3500-4000 dollar price point. And if it breaks,
> forget having the rig faster than a 3 month turn around. Call up Elecraft
> and you get a guy who speaks the Kings English and knows the rig and most
> likely can tell you what needs to be replaced over the phone.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, The 7300 is a nice package. It is a very beginner
> radio. It does a lot of stuff and is one of the easiest rigs to get
> computer control interfaced with. Especially, if you want to do psk modes
> then it is very nice and just by plugging in a USB cable, you are on the
> air. That and HRD and you are cooking.  For a contest grade radio, no. For
> a beginner radio, it has many bells and whistles that are nice but
> filtering is not one of them, unfortunately, because their front end
> selectivity is weak.
> 
> Right now I have seen many TS590s / SG for sale for under 1k. These radios
> are easily computer linked. Using a K1EL winkeyer and N1MM, what a great
> combination. I found one outstanding feature is their internal antenna
> tuner. It matches stuff that easily a 10:1 SWR mismatch and does not fold
> back the power after the match. I have personally used one on Field Day at
> least 2 times and they worked great for CW and SSB. Their menu is intuitive
> and easily addressed. For a beater radio, it is great. They have really
> good front ends for their price point and excellent selectivity. They run
> 100 watts off the line and recently QRZ had one for sale for $750. Now that
> is where I would spend my sheckles. If I were looking for a second rig and
> wanted less cabledom problems for the best radio and the least dollars,
> done deal. Does it compare to a K3S, not even marginally, but most people
> if you sat them down in front of a radio would know enough to know the
> difference.
> 
> In the end, truth be told, most ops will never realize the capability of a
> KX3, KX2 or K3S and would be just as happy with any rig that would let them
> get on and talk to their good buddies, give weather reports or talk about
> hog farming on 160 at 11pm at 

Re: [Elecraft] Augment KX3 or buy K3?

[Morgan Bailey]

If you are even marginally serious about operating around other rigs (field
day), forget using the 7300. It does not have the necessary filtering to be
useful in that environment. Forget CW pileups with the 7300. The comment on
buttons is rather laughable when you mention the 7300, one knob and
infinite menus even to just change the CW speed. 1200$ for a 7300 is best
spent sitting in the bank. The KX3 blows it away. If you can pick up a 7300
for 750$ then go for it but understand it is not an Elecraft. You are
buying a bells and whistles radio and not a contest grade by any means
communication grade radio.

As for the 7610, it is all promises and yet to be totally revealed. If it
is even half the rig that people are saying it is, well, good stuff does
not come cheap. Expect a 3500-4000 dollar price point. And if it breaks,
forget having the rig faster than a 3 month turn around. Call up Elecraft
and you get a guy who speaks the Kings English and knows the rig and most
likely can tell you what needs to be replaced over the phone.

Don't get me wrong, The 7300 is a nice package. It is a very beginner
radio. It does a lot of stuff and is one of the easiest rigs to get
computer control interfaced with. Especially, if you want to do psk modes
then it is very nice and just by plugging in a USB cable, you are on the
air. That and HRD and you are cooking.  For a contest grade radio, no. For
a beginner radio, it has many bells and whistles that are nice but
filtering is not one of them, unfortunately, because their front end
selectivity is weak.

Right now I have seen many TS590s / SG for sale for under 1k. These radios
are easily computer linked. Using a K1EL winkeyer and N1MM, what a great
combination. I found one outstanding feature is their internal antenna
tuner. It matches stuff that easily a 10:1 SWR mismatch and does not fold
back the power after the match. I have personally used one on Field Day at
least 2 times and they worked great for CW and SSB. Their menu is intuitive
and easily addressed. For a beater radio, it is great. They have really
good front ends for their price point and excellent selectivity. They run
100 watts off the line and recently QRZ had one for sale for $750. Now that
is where I would spend my sheckles. If I were looking for a second rig and
wanted less cabledom problems for the best radio and the least dollars,
done deal. Does it compare to a K3S, not even marginally, but most people
if you sat them down in front of a radio would know enough to know the
difference.

In the end, truth be told, most ops will never realize the capability of a
KX3, KX2 or K3S and would be just as happy with any rig that would let them
get on and talk to their good buddies, give weather reports or talk about
hog farming on 160 at 11pm at night. Only when you are a discriminating op
would you want or need better than a $700 to $1300 radio. I love my K3S and
each time I run in a contest, I learn something new about some feature that
I had not used before. On the other hand, I also own a Yeasu 450 and it is
my test radio for antenna building and recently I put it in my truck as a
mobile. It works great. going down the road running CW or a casual SSB QSO,
it works great. It puts out 100 watts and works for me. For a contest grade
radio, no so much. Its front end is easily over loaded in a pileup and it
is selectivity is more than some what lacking. For casual operation, it is
a great deal. The major downfall of the radio for casual operation and temp
set ups is that the internal antenna tuner is severely lacking. It is
limited to a 3 to 1 miss match.

Knowing what is possible in radioland and having the money to buy what ever
one wants with out so much as blinking, that is not me. Would I love to
have a Flex 6700 with full second rx and Maestro interface to run SO2R...Oh
Hell yes. Am I willing to invest $10,000 to get there...oh hell NO. What
happens if is get a virus in the software that runs the radio? Im done.
What happens if some part for the main box goes down, Im done. There is
always a better mouse trap over the horizon. One can live well if one lives
with in their means...providing they are not starving to death and have a
warm place to sleep that is clean dry and disease free.

Vy 73,

Morgan NJ8M

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Harry White  wrote:

> Gareth,
>
> Why buy either?
>
> A K3s/10-K is $2049.95. A K3s/100-K is $2599.95 (To be equivalent to the
> KX3
> with the amplifier) and then you need the ATU at $379.95 for a total of
> $2979.90. And that is before you add any extra filters, a second receiver,
> DVR, etc., etc.
>
> A KXPA100-K is $749.95 and the tuner is $379.95. Then add the PX3 at
> $474.95
> and you are up to $1604.85. And that is before you buy all the cables and
> other goodies.
>
> With either radio you end up with a rat's nest of cables to make them
> anywhere near useful. And they both have the antiquated orange display and
> way, way too few controls. 

Re: [Elecraft] Augment KX3 or buy K3?

[John Dolan]

I tried the Icom 7300.  it is a good budget rig.  As they say it is an
"Entry Level" ham rig.  My advice: Stay with Elecraft, you already know how
good those rigs are.

*Many of life's problems can be solved by simply deciding what we can do
without. -John Dolan *
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Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Digest, Vol 155, Issue 8

[Barry]

Hello Gareth,
	 I was in the same position as you about 3 years ago as I was left 
some money. I thought about the options for about 2 months and went for 
the KX3, PX3 & 100W linear and the ATU. I have not regretted my choice. 
Having a caravan and using just the KX3 I have never had any problems of 
running the caravan battery down even after two weeks with no 230volt 
supply to charge the battery. There are some very wise heads on this 
reflector who will add further comments to help you make a decision.


73 de Barry G4DBS

On 07/03/2017 21:13, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:


Message: 20
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 20:54:42 +
From: Gareth - M5KVK 
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
Subject: [Elecraft] Augment KX3 or buy K3?
Message-ID: