Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Bill Frantz]

The AUTOINF (Tech mode) switch can have the K3(S) automatically 
send frequency data on the RS-232 interface. The manual warns 
that turning this on may not be compatible with all PC software, 
but everything I run seems happy with it being on. With this on, 
you don't need to have a program polling for this information.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 7/15/18 at 2:00 AM, elecraft@mailman.qth.net (Stephen Rector 
via Elecraft) wrote:


With this configuration, the Antenna controller has its TXD pin 
left unconnected. As many here noted, this is of necessity 
since only one TXD driver can exist on a common TXD line. So, 
for the controller to work, FLRig must be running and connected 
to the radio. Since FLRig polls the KX3 control parameters, the 
Antenna controller receives the VFO data it needs on its RXD 
line. Apparently it doesn't matter that the controller is not 
doing the polling, as long as something else is.


---
Bill Frantz| Can't fix stupid, but duct   | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | tape can muffle the sound... | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |   - Bill Liebman | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Stephen Rector via Elecraft]

I'm following up here with the verified solution to my issue.

To recap - When I used a KXSER cable to connect my KXPA/KX3 to my Ciro Mazzoni 
Magloop antenna controller, that left no port available for me to control the 
KX3 with RS232 using the program FLRig. The best solution I found was to use a 
DB9 Y-connector in conjunction with a breakout board for the DB9 branch going 
to the antenna controller. On that board, I patched only the RXD and ground 
lines: pins 2 and 5, from input to output.

With this configuration, the Antenna controller has its TXD pin left 
unconnected. As many here noted, this is of necessity since only one TXD driver 
can exist on a common TXD line. So, for the controller to work, FLRig must be 
running and connected to the radio. Since FLRig polls the KX3 control 
parameters, the Antenna controller receives the VFO data it needs on its RXD 
line. Apparently it doesn't matter that the controller is not doing the 
polling, as long as something else is.

If I wanted to return polling autonomy to the antenna controller, I would have 
to disconnect the Y-junction. But I think I will keep things in place. Just 
because FLRig is running on the computer, doesn't mean that I can't use the KX3 
standalone as I usually have in the past. So this is an acceptable solution. 
I'll probably post it on Ciro Mazzoni's user site for others' benefit.

Thanks all for the help and pointers!

73,

Steve, NU7B


> On Jul 8, 2018, at 5:07 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> Sorry about the pin typo.  Look at the cable link for the steppIR that Dick 
> K6KR sent and that will be obvious.  I was looking at that diagram when I 
> typed my response, but did not proof it.
> TXD is really pin 3.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 7/8/2018 7:24 PM, Stephen Rector wrote:
>> Don:
>> I tried a 3.5mm Y-connector at the KXPA and this did not work. But based on 
>> your feedback and also that of N6TV, I see that I have multiple TX drivers 
>> on the TXD line. Even if there is no TX from the antenna controller, the 
>> low-impedance of its TXD driver will load the line. Bob also thinks the 
>> controller may be polling for info, much like the program FLRIG does. One 
>> correction to your info Don, I think TXD is pin 3 on the DB-9, and not pin 2.
>> The KXSER cable DB9 shell appears to be molded - it's not obvious how to 
>> disassemble it. So I will need to go into the controller to disconnect TXD 
>> there. I'll report back on whether or not that works, next weekend.
>> 73,
>> Steve, NU7B
>>> On Jul 8, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> 
>>> Steve,
>>> 
>>> Yes, since you are using both the KXUSB and the KXSER cables, a "Y" at the 
>>> KXPA100 would serve you well.
>>> If your magloop controller also attempts to transmit, you can remove the 
>>> connection to pin 2 on the DE9 end of the KXSER cable (just remove the 
>>> backshell and disconnect the wire).
>>> 
>>> RS-232 multiplexors are complicated devices and require the use of the full 
>>> RS-232 bus (mainly DTR and CTS signals) to handle the handshaking signals.  
>>> The 3 conductor KX3/KXPA100 wiring will not provide the proper handshaking 
>>> signals.
>>> The handshaking signals are not provided from the data stream (as they are 
>>> in Ethernet and other communications protocols), but from the explicit 
>>> signals separate from TXD and RTS.
>>> 
>>> Note that the KX3 (and most other Elecraft products) rely only on TXD and 
>>> RTS, which are reserved for data transmission only in the RS-232 scheme of 
>>> things.
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>> 
>>> On 7/8/2018 4:56 PM, Stephen Rector wrote:
 Hi Don:
 Yes - it occurred to me after sending the post that I might be able to 
 create the split at the KXPA with a stereo Y-cable/connector. I am using a 
 KXUSB to the computer, with a KXSER cable going from the the antenna 
 controller to the KXPA. It is the KXUSB that presently has no place to 
 connect to.
 So - I think I can try a 3.5mm stereo y-junction at the KXPA. Hopefully 
 impedances won't be an issue at 38400 baud...
 I did look for RS232 multiplexers - they seem to exist for industrial 
 applications. The documentation seemed to be sparse on the web.
 Anyway - thanks for the pointer :)
 73,
 Steve NU7B
> On Jul 8, 2018, at 1:37 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Are you using the KXUSB to connect with the KXPA100/KX3, or are you using 
> the KXSER with a real computer serial port or a USB to serial adapter?
> 
> Since your magloop controller only 'sniffs', it means it should only 
> listen and never try to transmit on the RS-232 signal lines.  If it only 
> listens, there will be no collisons (RS-232 is not packet oriented, but 
> an asynchronous communications system).
> 
> If the magloop controller also transmits on the RS-232 bus, you will need 
> some external device to act as "traffic cop" - note that RS-232 is a 
> point to point 

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Ken Winterling]

Get an inexpensive RS-232 breakout box.  The LEDs and jumpers will help you
see what is happening on the data and control lines and enable you to
make/verify any cable you need.  Compact gender changers address the
male/female connector issue as well as the 25 pin/9 pin conversion.  I
still have a couple boxes that I used back in the 70s.

Ken
WA2LBI

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 08:30 George Danner  wrote:

> In broadcasting - we learned very quickly interfacing equipment with
> RS232,
> that if it worked once it would continue to work.
>
> Back in the beginning of using RS232 interfaces (cira. 70s) one of our the
> engineers made a box with input/output pigtails in both male and female
> with
> a rotary switch that switched between straight through and "reverse" for
> all
> the various signals. Later we added 9 pin pigtails. Using that box quickly
> let us know what would work and how to make the interface cable.
>
> 73
> George AI4VZ
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Walter Underwood
> I never really understood RS-232 until I read “Technical Aspects of Data
> Communication” by John McNamara. Very clear. Not sure it is worth getting
> the book just for that, but you might check a library.
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to wa2...@gmail.com

-- 

Ken
WA2LBI

Sent from one of my mobile devices
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[George Danner]

In broadcasting - we learned very quickly interfacing equipment with RS232, 
that if it worked once it would continue to work.


Back in the beginning of using RS232 interfaces (cira. 70s) one of our the 
engineers made a box with input/output pigtails in both male and female with 
a rotary switch that switched between straight through and "reverse" for all 
the various signals. Later we added 9 pin pigtails. Using that box quickly 
let us know what would work and how to make the interface cable.


73
George AI4VZ


-Original Message- 
From: Walter Underwood
I never really understood RS-232 until I read “Technical Aspects of Data 
Communication” by John McNamara. Very clear. Not sure it is worth getting 
the book just for that, but you might check a library.


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Walter Underwood]

I never really understood RS-232 until I read “Technical Aspects of Data 
Communication” by John McNamara. Very clear. Not sure it is worth getting the 
book just for that, but you might check a library.

https://smile.amazon.com/Technical-Aspects-Data-Communication-McNamara-ebook/dp/B01H5GQK78/
https://www.oldcomputerbooks.com/pages/books/M460/john-e-mcnamara/technical-aspects-of-data-communication

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Jul 9, 2018, at 6:45 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> Bill,
> 
> No, DCE is Data Communications Equipment and that means Modem which does 
> connect to a phone line or other communications carrier medium.
> DTE means Data Terminal Equipment and connects to a modem.
> 
> Those designations have been in place since 1960 or earlier.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 7/9/2018 5:12 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>> I think the correct acronym expansion of DTE is "Data Carrier Equipment". 
>> Remember, this whole area was designed by telephone companies who thought 
>> they would be a part of every connection.
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Don Wilhelm]

Bill,

No, DCE is Data Communications Equipment and that means Modem which does 
connect to a phone line or other communications carrier medium.

DTE means Data Terminal Equipment and connects to a modem.

Those designations have been in place since 1960 or earlier.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/9/2018 5:12 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
I think the correct acronym expansion of DTE is "Data Carrier 
Equipment". Remember, this whole area was designed by telephone 
companies who thought they would be a part of every connection.

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Bill Frantz]

I think the correct acronym expansion of DTE is "Data Carrier 
Equipment". Remember, this whole area was designed by telephone 
companies who thought they would be a part of every connection.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 7/9/18 at 10:20 AM, k6...@foothill.net (Fred Jensen) wrote:

The flaw is naming them "transmit" and "receive."  "DTE2DCE" 
and vice versa might have been a better choice so many years 
ago.  "Data Terminal" and "Data Communications" were probably 
equally poor naming choices, but it seemed so obvious then.


---
Bill Frantz| Truth and love must prevail  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | over lies and hate.  | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |   - Vaclav Havel | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Fred Jensen]

The flaw is naming them "transmit" and "receive."  "DTE2DCE" and vice 
versa might have been a better choice so many years ago.  "Data 
Terminal" and "Data Communications" were probably equally poor naming 
choices, but it seemed so obvious then.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 7/8/2018 6:21 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Andy,

No TXD is TXD all the way through the path.  Yes, the DTE TXD will 
have the drivers, and the DCE will have receivers, but it is TXD from 
end to end.  RXD is the other way around because the DCE drives that 
line.

Trsnsmit and receive are named with respect to the DTE.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/8/2018 8:39 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote:

"TXD is really pin 3."


One end's TXD is the other end's RXD. That's obvious to those who 
have used RS-233 for a while but if someone needs to ask then it may 
not be obvious. Find the TXD pin on the source and connect it the RXD 
pin on the destination. Sometimes it's easier to look with a scope 
than to try to understand the documentation.




__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Bill Frantz]

Back in the day, I worked for Tymshare, a time sharing company 
(AKA early cloud computing). We used Bell 103 protocol modems to 
provide full duplex connections for our users who were using 
ASCII terminals, both CRT and teleprinter. They could type at 
the same time the computer was sending data, so the modem was 
supporting full duplex.


I note the Wikipedia article 
 mentions:


  "The Bell 103 modem used audio frequency-shift keying to 
encode data. Different pairs of audio

  frequencies were used by each station:

The originating station used a mark tone of 1,270 Hz and a 
space tone of 1,070 Hz.
The answering station used a mark tone of 2,225 Hz and a 
space tone of 2,025 Hz."


So the modem can both send and receive at the same time if the 
communication link supports it.


Other terminals, such as the IBM 2741, could only handle data in 
one direction and needed the RTS/CTS lines to support their needs.


And, radio applications would need separate transmit frequencies 
and good filtering to support full duplex.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 7/9/18 at 8:07 AM, fc...@montana.edu (Cady, Fred) wrote:

The Bell 103 could send data only in one direction at a time so 
RTS and CTS were included to control the flow of the data.


---
Bill Frantz| Re: Computer reliability, performance, and security:
408-356-8506   | The guy who *is* wearing a parachute is 
*not* the

www.pwpconsult.com | first to reach the ground.  - Terence Kelly

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Ronnie Hull]

I still use a black box brand breakout box!! Indispensable to a field 
communications technician!

Ronnie W5SUM

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 9, 2018, at 11:04 AM, Dave Fugleberg  wrote:
> 
> As a ‘field engineer ‘ for a global company in the 80s, I’d occasionally
> find one of those RS232 breakout boxes tucked behind some production
> system, jumpered to make the connection work, blinking away, because some
> technician finally hit upon the magic combination and then left it in place
> rather than building a proper cable.
> I’ve seen lots of devices whose designers took great liberty with the RS232
> standard...a breakout box and some gender changers was indispensable in
> working with a variety of serial devices. Sometimes even that plus a
> healthy amount of experience wasn’t sufficient, as when marginal voltage
> swings, extra long cables, and different ground potential at each end
> conspired against you.
> Lots of fun!
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:10 AM Cady, Fred  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Don.  It must have been interesting working all that out.  I used
>> to enjoy giving my students a history lesson explaining the control and
>> handshaking signals in the RS232 connector from basic principles, starting
>> with the Bell 103 modem.  That didn't help  explain the terminology and
>> signal naming problem that Andy had. Manufacturers were terrible at keeping
>> to the standard.  And really, in isolation, it doesn't make sense that a
>> signal named TxD would be a input and not an output.  Documentation was
>> scanty and so the scope, or my favorite test tool -- the RS232 Blinky Box
>> -- had to be gotten out to tell what was what.
>> 
>> The now  used for other purposes signals are:
>> DTR -- from the terminal to the modem to tell the modem the Data Terminal
>> was ready.  Now used for CW or PTT.
>> 
>> DSR -- From the modem to the terminal to indicate the modem was ready
>> (generally power on).
>> 
>> The Bell 103 could send data only in one direction at a time so RTS and
>> CTS were included to control the flow of the data.
>> 
>> RTS -- Request to Send from the terminal to the modem to request the line.
>> 
>> CTS -- Clear to send from the modem to the terminal to say the line was
>> not busy and to go ahead with sending the data.
>> 
>> RTS and CTS were also used to control the data flow from a fast device to
>> a slow device.  I think there were some kenwood radios that used this
>> scheme.
>> 
>> DCD -- Data Carrier Detected was used for the modem to tell the terminal
>> that the carrier from the other data set was being generated (the phone
>> line was working).
>> 
>> RI -- Ring Indicator asserted by the modem when it heard a ringing signal
>> at the other end of the telephone line.
>> 
>> As I remember it.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Fred KE7X
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
>> on behalf of Don Wilhelm 
>> Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:04 PM
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are
>> occupied
>> 
>> The computer is the DTE device, and those devices designed to connect to
>> the computer via the serial port are normally wired as DCE devices.
>> 
>> The original thought when the IBM PC serial port was designed was that
>> the PC would be used as a terminal connected to a modem, thus the
>> decision was that the PC should be a DTE - and for the first several
>> years the PC was used only as a terminal device.  Yes, I was involved
>> during those early days, but not as a part of that decision making
>> process - I was involved with the IBM PC modems.  My manager said I had
>> "M" engraved on my forehead.
>> 
>> Now we have the situation where the computer is the controller.  It
>> would be very confusing to change the wiring of the computer, so it
>> remains as a DTE, and connecting devices (while not modems) are
>> configured as a DCE,
>> 
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>> 
>>> On 7/8/2018 10:15 PM, Cady, Fred wrote:
>>> Hi Andy,
>>> 
>>> Don is correct.
>>> 
>>> Here is a little blurb that might help.
>>> 
>>> 
>> http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information/unexpected-agc-behavior/rs232-interfaces-1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
>> on behalf of Don Wilhelm 
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:21 PM
>>> To: A

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Dave Fugleberg]

As a ‘field engineer ‘ for a global company in the 80s, I’d occasionally
find one of those RS232 breakout boxes tucked behind some production
system, jumpered to make the connection work, blinking away, because some
technician finally hit upon the magic combination and then left it in place
rather than building a proper cable.
I’ve seen lots of devices whose designers took great liberty with the RS232
standard...a breakout box and some gender changers was indispensable in
working with a variety of serial devices. Sometimes even that plus a
healthy amount of experience wasn’t sufficient, as when marginal voltage
swings, extra long cables, and different ground potential at each end
conspired against you.
Lots of fun!
On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:10 AM Cady, Fred  wrote:

> Thanks Don.  It must have been interesting working all that out.  I used
> to enjoy giving my students a history lesson explaining the control and
> handshaking signals in the RS232 connector from basic principles, starting
> with the Bell 103 modem.  That didn't help  explain the terminology and
> signal naming problem that Andy had. Manufacturers were terrible at keeping
> to the standard.  And really, in isolation, it doesn't make sense that a
> signal named TxD would be a input and not an output.  Documentation was
> scanty and so the scope, or my favorite test tool -- the RS232 Blinky Box
> -- had to be gotten out to tell what was what.
>
> The now  used for other purposes signals are:
> DTR -- from the terminal to the modem to tell the modem the Data Terminal
> was ready.  Now used for CW or PTT.
>
> DSR -- From the modem to the terminal to indicate the modem was ready
> (generally power on).
>
> The Bell 103 could send data only in one direction at a time so RTS and
> CTS were included to control the flow of the data.
>
> RTS -- Request to Send from the terminal to the modem to request the line.
>
> CTS -- Clear to send from the modem to the terminal to say the line was
> not busy and to go ahead with sending the data.
>
> RTS and CTS were also used to control the data flow from a fast device to
> a slow device.  I think there were some kenwood radios that used this
> scheme.
>
> DCD -- Data Carrier Detected was used for the modem to tell the terminal
> that the carrier from the other data set was being generated (the phone
> line was working).
>
> RI -- Ring Indicator asserted by the modem when it heard a ringing signal
> at the other end of the telephone line.
>
> As I remember it.
>
> Cheers,
> Fred KE7X
>
>
>
>
> 
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> on behalf of Don Wilhelm 
> Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:04 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are
> occupied
>
> The computer is the DTE device, and those devices designed to connect to
> the computer via the serial port are normally wired as DCE devices.
>
> The original thought when the IBM PC serial port was designed was that
> the PC would be used as a terminal connected to a modem, thus the
> decision was that the PC should be a DTE - and for the first several
> years the PC was used only as a terminal device.  Yes, I was involved
> during those early days, but not as a part of that decision making
> process - I was involved with the IBM PC modems.  My manager said I had
> "M" engraved on my forehead.
>
> Now we have the situation where the computer is the controller.  It
> would be very confusing to change the wiring of the computer, so it
> remains as a DTE, and connecting devices (while not modems) are
> configured as a DCE,
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/8/2018 10:15 PM, Cady, Fred wrote:
> > Hi Andy,
> >
> > Don is correct.
> >
> > Here is a little blurb that might help.
> >
> >
> http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information/unexpected-agc-behavior/rs232-interfaces-1
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> on behalf of Don Wilhelm 
> > Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:21 PM
> > To: ANDY DURBIN; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are
> occupied
> >
> > Andy,
> >
> > No TXD is TXD all the way through the path.  Yes, the DTE TXD will have
> > the drivers, and the DCE will have receivers, but it is TXD from end to
> > end.  RXD is the other way around because the DCE drives that line.
> > Trsnsmit and receive are named with respect to the DTE.
> >
> > 73,
> > Don W3FPR
> >
> > On 7/8/2018 8:39 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote:
> >> "TXD is really pin 3."
> >

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Cady, Fred]

Thanks Don.  It must have been interesting working all that out.  I used to 
enjoy giving my students a history lesson explaining the control and 
handshaking signals in the RS232 connector from basic principles, starting with 
the Bell 103 modem.  That didn't help  explain the terminology and signal 
naming problem that Andy had. Manufacturers were terrible at keeping to the 
standard.  And really, in isolation, it doesn't make sense that a signal named 
TxD would be a input and not an output.  Documentation was scanty and so the 
scope, or my favorite test tool -- the RS232 Blinky Box -- had to be gotten out 
to tell what was what.

The now  used for other purposes signals are:
DTR -- from the terminal to the modem to tell the modem the Data Terminal was 
ready.  Now used for CW or PTT.

DSR -- From the modem to the terminal to indicate the modem was ready 
(generally power on).

The Bell 103 could send data only in one direction at a time so RTS and CTS 
were included to control the flow of the data.

RTS -- Request to Send from the terminal to the modem to request the line.

CTS -- Clear to send from the modem to the terminal to say the line was not 
busy and to go ahead with sending the data.

RTS and CTS were also used to control the data flow from a fast device to a 
slow device.  I think there were some kenwood radios that used this scheme.

DCD -- Data Carrier Detected was used for the modem to tell the terminal that 
the carrier from the other data set was being generated (the phone line was 
working).

RI -- Ring Indicator asserted by the modem when it heard a ringing signal at 
the other end of the telephone line.

As I remember it.

Cheers,
Fred KE7X





From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
behalf of Don Wilhelm 
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:04 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

The computer is the DTE device, and those devices designed to connect to
the computer via the serial port are normally wired as DCE devices.

The original thought when the IBM PC serial port was designed was that
the PC would be used as a terminal connected to a modem, thus the
decision was that the PC should be a DTE - and for the first several
years the PC was used only as a terminal device.  Yes, I was involved
during those early days, but not as a part of that decision making
process - I was involved with the IBM PC modems.  My manager said I had
"M" engraved on my forehead.

Now we have the situation where the computer is the controller.  It
would be very confusing to change the wiring of the computer, so it
remains as a DTE, and connecting devices (while not modems) are
configured as a DCE,

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/8/2018 10:15 PM, Cady, Fred wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
> Don is correct.
>
> Here is a little blurb that might help.
>
> http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information/unexpected-agc-behavior/rs232-interfaces-1
>
>
> 
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
> behalf of Don Wilhelm 
> Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:21 PM
> To: ANDY DURBIN; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are 
> occupied
>
> Andy,
>
> No TXD is TXD all the way through the path.  Yes, the DTE TXD will have
> the drivers, and the DCE will have receivers, but it is TXD from end to
> end.  RXD is the other way around because the DCE drives that line.
> Trsnsmit and receive are named with respect to the DTE.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/8/2018 8:39 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote:
>> "TXD is really pin 3."
>>
>>
>> One end's TXD is the other end's RXD. That's obvious to those who have used 
>> RS-233 for a while but if someone needs to ask then it may not be obvious. 
>> Find the TXD pin on the source and connect it the RXD pin on the 
>> destination. Sometimes it's easier to look with a scope than to try to 
>> understand the documentation.
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to fc...@ke7x.com
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to donw...@embarqmail.com
>
__

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Don Wilhelm]

The computer is the DTE device, and those devices designed to connect to 
the computer via the serial port are normally wired as DCE devices.


The original thought when the IBM PC serial port was designed was that 
the PC would be used as a terminal connected to a modem, thus the 
decision was that the PC should be a DTE - and for the first several 
years the PC was used only as a terminal device.  Yes, I was involved 
during those early days, but not as a part of that decision making 
process - I was involved with the IBM PC modems.  My manager said I had 
"M" engraved on my forehead.


Now we have the situation where the computer is the controller.  It 
would be very confusing to change the wiring of the computer, so it 
remains as a DTE, and connecting devices (while not modems) are 
configured as a DCE,


73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/8/2018 10:15 PM, Cady, Fred wrote:

Hi Andy,

Don is correct.

Here is a little blurb that might help.

http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information/unexpected-agc-behavior/rs232-interfaces-1



From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on behalf 
of Don Wilhelm 
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:21 PM
To: ANDY DURBIN; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

Andy,

No TXD is TXD all the way through the path.  Yes, the DTE TXD will have
the drivers, and the DCE will have receivers, but it is TXD from end to
end.  RXD is the other way around because the DCE drives that line.
Trsnsmit and receive are named with respect to the DTE.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/8/2018 8:39 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote:

"TXD is really pin 3."


One end's TXD is the other end's RXD. That's obvious to those who have used 
RS-233 for a while but if someone needs to ask then it may not be obvious. Find 
the TXD pin on the source and connect it the RXD pin on the destination. 
Sometimes it's easier to look with a scope than to try to understand the 
documentation.

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to fc...@ke7x.com
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to donw...@embarqmail.com


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Cady, Fred]

Hi Andy,

Don is correct.

Here is a little blurb that might help.

http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information/unexpected-agc-behavior/rs232-interfaces-1



From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  on 
behalf of Don Wilhelm 
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:21 PM
To: ANDY DURBIN; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

Andy,

No TXD is TXD all the way through the path.  Yes, the DTE TXD will have
the drivers, and the DCE will have receivers, but it is TXD from end to
end.  RXD is the other way around because the DCE drives that line.
Trsnsmit and receive are named with respect to the DTE.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/8/2018 8:39 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote:
> "TXD is really pin 3."
>
>
> One end's TXD is the other end's RXD. That's obvious to those who have used 
> RS-233 for a while but if someone needs to ask then it may not be obvious. 
> Find the TXD pin on the source and connect it the RXD pin on the destination. 
> Sometimes it's easier to look with a scope than to try to understand the 
> documentation.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to fc...@ke7x.com
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[ANDY DURBIN]

"No, TXD is TXD all the way through the path.  Yes, the DTE TXD will have the 
drivers, and the DCE will have receivers, but it is TXD from end to end.  RXD 
is the other way around because the DCE drives that line.  Transmit and receive 
are named with respect to the DTE."

That's great when one equipment is designed to be a DTE and the other as a DCE 
but sometimes that's nor the case.  I think I have connected more equipment 
with a 2-3 3-2 connection than with 2-2 and 3-3 connection.
Perhaps I should have said  - identify the transmit pin on the source and 
connect it to the receive pin on the destination.

73,
Andy k3wyc


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Don Wilhelm]

Andy,

No TXD is TXD all the way through the path.  Yes, the DTE TXD will have 
the drivers, and the DCE will have receivers, but it is TXD from end to 
end.  RXD is the other way around because the DCE drives that line.

Trsnsmit and receive are named with respect to the DTE.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/8/2018 8:39 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote:

"TXD is really pin 3."


One end's TXD is the other end's RXD. That's obvious to those who have used 
RS-233 for a while but if someone needs to ask then it may not be obvious. Find 
the TXD pin on the source and connect it the RXD pin on the destination. 
Sometimes it's easier to look with a scope than to try to understand the 
documentation.

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[ANDY DURBIN]

"TXD is really pin 3."


One end's TXD is the other end's RXD. That's obvious to those who have used 
RS-233 for a while but if someone needs to ask then it may not be obvious. Find 
the TXD pin on the source and connect it the RXD pin on the destination. 
Sometimes it's easier to look with a scope than to try to understand the 
documentation.


I really like my Rigol DS1054Z which not only allows the waveform to be 
examined it also decodes the data.


73,

Andy k3wyc


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Don Wilhelm]

Sorry about the pin typo.  Look at the cable link for the steppIR that 
Dick K6KR sent and that will be obvious.  I was looking at that diagram 
when I typed my response, but did not proof it.

TXD is really pin 3.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/8/2018 7:24 PM, Stephen Rector wrote:

Don:

I tried a 3.5mm Y-connector at the KXPA and this did not work. But based on 
your feedback and also that of N6TV, I see that I have multiple TX drivers on 
the TXD line. Even if there is no TX from the antenna controller, the 
low-impedance of its TXD driver will load the line. Bob also thinks the 
controller may be polling for info, much like the program FLRIG does. One 
correction to your info Don, I think TXD is pin 3 on the DB-9, and not pin 2.

The KXSER cable DB9 shell appears to be molded - it's not obvious how to 
disassemble it. So I will need to go into the controller to disconnect TXD 
there. I'll report back on whether or not that works, next weekend.

73,

Steve, NU7B



On Jul 8, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

Steve,

Yes, since you are using both the KXUSB and the KXSER cables, a "Y" at the 
KXPA100 would serve you well.
If your magloop controller also attempts to transmit, you can remove the 
connection to pin 2 on the DE9 end of the KXSER cable (just remove the 
backshell and disconnect the wire).

RS-232 multiplexors are complicated devices and require the use of the full 
RS-232 bus (mainly DTR and CTS signals) to handle the handshaking signals.  The 
3 conductor KX3/KXPA100 wiring will not provide the proper handshaking signals.
The handshaking signals are not provided from the data stream (as they are in 
Ethernet and other communications protocols), but from the explicit signals 
separate from TXD and RTS.

Note that the KX3 (and most other Elecraft products) rely only on TXD and RTS, 
which are reserved for data transmission only in the RS-232 scheme of things.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/8/2018 4:56 PM, Stephen Rector wrote:

Hi Don:
Yes - it occurred to me after sending the post that I might be able to create 
the split at the KXPA with a stereo Y-cable/connector. I am using a KXUSB to 
the computer, with a KXSER cable going from the the antenna controller to the 
KXPA. It is the KXUSB that presently has no place to connect to.
So - I think I can try a 3.5mm stereo y-junction at the KXPA. Hopefully 
impedances won't be an issue at 38400 baud...
I did look for RS232 multiplexers - they seem to exist for industrial 
applications. The documentation seemed to be sparse on the web.
Anyway - thanks for the pointer :)
73,
Steve NU7B

On Jul 8, 2018, at 1:37 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

Steve,

Are you using the KXUSB to connect with the KXPA100/KX3, or are you using the 
KXSER with a real computer serial port or a USB to serial adapter?

Since your magloop controller only 'sniffs', it means it should only listen and 
never try to transmit on the RS-232 signal lines.  If it only listens, there 
will be no collisons (RS-232 is not packet oriented, but an asynchronous 
communications system).

If the magloop controller also transmits on the RS-232 bus, you will need some external 
device to act as "traffic cop" - note that RS-232 is a point to point system 
(unlike Ethernet and others) where there is one driver device and one receiver at each 
end.

So yes, you can use a splitter - one with a 3.5mm stereo plug and two 3.5mm 
stereo jacks if using the KXUSB.
If you are using the KXSER cable instead, yes, you can connect a "Y" DB9 splitter to the 
DB9 end of the KXSER cable - the computer connects to one side and the magloop controller connects 
to the other side of the "Y".

On 7/8/2018 3:31 PM, Stephen Rector via Elecraft wrote:

Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the RS232 
port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop to the 
station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to sniff for 
frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This leaves no RS232 port 
left for remote control of the radio.
How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3 control? 
My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs for data, I 
could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the controller serial 
port location. However, packets could still collide ...does the protocol handle 
this? Is there some sort of multiplexer available?




__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Stephen Rector via Elecraft]

Don:

I tried a 3.5mm Y-connector at the KXPA and this did not work. But based on 
your feedback and also that of N6TV, I see that I have multiple TX drivers on 
the TXD line. Even if there is no TX from the antenna controller, the 
low-impedance of its TXD driver will load the line. Bob also thinks the 
controller may be polling for info, much like the program FLRIG does. One 
correction to your info Don, I think TXD is pin 3 on the DB-9, and not pin 2.

The KXSER cable DB9 shell appears to be molded - it's not obvious how to 
disassemble it. So I will need to go into the controller to disconnect TXD 
there. I'll report back on whether or not that works, next weekend.

73,

Steve, NU7B


> On Jul 8, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Yes, since you are using both the KXUSB and the KXSER cables, a "Y" at the 
> KXPA100 would serve you well.
> If your magloop controller also attempts to transmit, you can remove the 
> connection to pin 2 on the DE9 end of the KXSER cable (just remove the 
> backshell and disconnect the wire).
> 
> RS-232 multiplexors are complicated devices and require the use of the full 
> RS-232 bus (mainly DTR and CTS signals) to handle the handshaking signals.  
> The 3 conductor KX3/KXPA100 wiring will not provide the proper handshaking 
> signals.
> The handshaking signals are not provided from the data stream (as they are in 
> Ethernet and other communications protocols), but from the explicit signals 
> separate from TXD and RTS.
> 
> Note that the KX3 (and most other Elecraft products) rely only on TXD and 
> RTS, which are reserved for data transmission only in the RS-232 scheme of 
> things.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 7/8/2018 4:56 PM, Stephen Rector wrote:
>> Hi Don:
>> Yes - it occurred to me after sending the post that I might be able to 
>> create the split at the KXPA with a stereo Y-cable/connector. I am using a 
>> KXUSB to the computer, with a KXSER cable going from the the antenna 
>> controller to the KXPA. It is the KXUSB that presently has no place to 
>> connect to.
>> So - I think I can try a 3.5mm stereo y-junction at the KXPA. Hopefully 
>> impedances won't be an issue at 38400 baud...
>> I did look for RS232 multiplexers - they seem to exist for industrial 
>> applications. The documentation seemed to be sparse on the web.
>> Anyway - thanks for the pointer :)
>> 73,
>> Steve NU7B
>>> On Jul 8, 2018, at 1:37 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Steve,
>>> 
>>> Are you using the KXUSB to connect with the KXPA100/KX3, or are you using 
>>> the KXSER with a real computer serial port or a USB to serial adapter?
>>> 
>>> Since your magloop controller only 'sniffs', it means it should only listen 
>>> and never try to transmit on the RS-232 signal lines.  If it only listens, 
>>> there will be no collisons (RS-232 is not packet oriented, but an 
>>> asynchronous communications system).
>>> 
>>> If the magloop controller also transmits on the RS-232 bus, you will need 
>>> some external device to act as "traffic cop" - note that RS-232 is a point 
>>> to point system (unlike Ethernet and others) where there is one driver 
>>> device and one receiver at each end.
>>> 
>>> So yes, you can use a splitter - one with a 3.5mm stereo plug and two 3.5mm 
>>> stereo jacks if using the KXUSB.
>>> If you are using the KXSER cable instead, yes, you can connect a "Y" DB9 
>>> splitter to the DB9 end of the KXSER cable - the computer connects to one 
>>> side and the magloop controller connects to the other side of the "Y".
>>> 
>>> On 7/8/2018 3:31 PM, Stephen Rector via Elecraft wrote:
 Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the 
 RS232 port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop 
 to the station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to 
 sniff for frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This 
 leaves no RS232 port left for remote control of the radio.
 How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3 
 control? My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just 
 sniffs for data, I could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at 
 the controller serial port location. However, packets could still collide 
 ...does the protocol handle this? Is there some sort of multiplexer 
 available?

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Jack Brindle via Elecraft]

If you are looking at creating a Y splitter (actually the best way for this 
setup), then be sure to only connect ground and the signal going to the magloop 
controller. 
As someone has mentioned, you do not want to have two devices driving a data 
signal simultaneously. At some point one will go to +12V, the other to -12V. 
They will argue and one will win, the other will cease to function.

We were very careful when designing the devices that need to “sniff” the RS-232 
cable. The KRC2 has an internal multiplexer that allows it to share driving the 
signal to the radio in parallel to the one from the computer.
Even still, we advice folks to set one or the other for sending commands to the 
radio. The KPA500 has an internal relay to enable or disable the data being 
sent out the PC port. this is controlled by the menu system, allowing
the KPA to perform serial polling (PC port TxD will be enabled) or pure 
sniffing (TxD disabled).

Note that enabling both devices (computer and antenna controller) to poll the 
radio can be problematic, even with a multiplexing device. There are some PC 
applications that can be greatly surprised if they receive a response they 
didn’t specifically ask for. The surprise generally ends in a crash. Most 
programs have been rewritten to accept whatever comes there way. I won’t 
embarrass the problematic program’s authors, but they are aware.

There is one other thing to consider. If you always use the radio and magloop 
with the computer running, then you are fine. But at some point if you don’t 
want to use the radio then you will need a source to poll the data. In that 
case just set the radio to output changes as they occur. That should do the job 
quite nicely, keeping the magloop controller happy with more data than probably 
needs to get the job done.

73,
Jack, W6FB


> On Jul 8, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Stephen Rector via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Dick:
> 
> Thanks - the diagram makes things very clear. I initially didn't think of 
> accomplishing the split at the KXPA 3.5mm connector, but it makes sense.
> 
> Thanks,  73,
> 
> Steve NU7B
> 
> 
>> On Jul 8, 2018, at 1:38 PM, d...@elecraft.com wrote:
>> 
>> Typically "sniffers" don't have the TX side connected.  RS-232 can't have
>> multiple transmitters on either wire.
>> 
>> This is done with SteppIR controller, for similar reasons.  SteppIR
>> describes a splitter cable for DE-9 connectors. The same principle (with a
>> much simpler cable, just tip and ring) applies to the 3.5mm connector to the
>> KXPA100.
>> 
>> http://www.steppir.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Y-Cable.pdf
>> 
>> 73 de Dick, K6KR
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
>> Behalf Of Stephen Rector via Elecraft
>> Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 12:31
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied
>> 
>> Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the
>> RS232 port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop to
>> the station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to sniff
>> for frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This leaves no
>> RS232 port left for remote control of the radio.
>> 
>> How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3
>> control? My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs
>> for data, I could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the
>> controller serial port location. However, packets could still collide
>> ...does the protocol handle this? Is there some sort of multiplexer
>> available?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> NU7B
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
>> delivered to d...@elecraft.com
>> 
> 
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to jackbrin...@me.com

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Don Wilhelm]

Steve,

Yes, since you are using both the KXUSB and the KXSER cables, a "Y" at 
the KXPA100 would serve you well.
If your magloop controller also attempts to transmit, you can remove the 
connection to pin 2 on the DE9 end of the KXSER cable (just remove the 
backshell and disconnect the wire).


RS-232 multiplexors are complicated devices and require the use of the 
full RS-232 bus (mainly DTR and CTS signals) to handle the handshaking 
signals.  The 3 conductor KX3/KXPA100 wiring will not provide the proper 
handshaking signals.
The handshaking signals are not provided from the data stream (as they 
are in Ethernet and other communications protocols), but from the 
explicit signals separate from TXD and RTS.


Note that the KX3 (and most other Elecraft products) rely only on TXD 
and RTS, which are reserved for data transmission only in the RS-232 
scheme of things.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/8/2018 4:56 PM, Stephen Rector wrote:

Hi Don:

Yes - it occurred to me after sending the post that I might be able to create 
the split at the KXPA with a stereo Y-cable/connector. I am using a KXUSB to 
the computer, with a KXSER cable going from the the antenna controller to the 
KXPA. It is the KXUSB that presently has no place to connect to.

So - I think I can try a 3.5mm stereo y-junction at the KXPA. Hopefully 
impedances won't be an issue at 38400 baud...

I did look for RS232 multiplexers - they seem to exist for industrial 
applications. The documentation seemed to be sparse on the web.

Anyway - thanks for the pointer :)

73,

Steve NU7B



On Jul 8, 2018, at 1:37 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

Steve,

Are you using the KXUSB to connect with the KXPA100/KX3, or are you using the 
KXSER with a real computer serial port or a USB to serial adapter?

Since your magloop controller only 'sniffs', it means it should only listen and 
never try to transmit on the RS-232 signal lines.  If it only listens, there 
will be no collisons (RS-232 is not packet oriented, but an asynchronous 
communications system).

If the magloop controller also transmits on the RS-232 bus, you will need some external 
device to act as "traffic cop" - note that RS-232 is a point to point system 
(unlike Ethernet and others) where there is one driver device and one receiver at each 
end.

So yes, you can use a splitter - one with a 3.5mm stereo plug and two 3.5mm 
stereo jacks if using the KXUSB.
If you are using the KXSER cable instead, yes, you can connect a "Y" DB9 splitter to the 
DB9 end of the KXSER cable - the computer connects to one side and the magloop controller connects 
to the other side of the "Y".

On 7/8/2018 3:31 PM, Stephen Rector via Elecraft wrote:

Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the RS232 
port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop to the 
station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to sniff for 
frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This leaves no RS232 port 
left for remote control of the radio.
How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3 control? 
My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs for data, I 
could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the controller serial 
port location. However, packets could still collide ...does the protocol handle 
this? Is there some sort of multiplexer available?




__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Stephen Rector via Elecraft]

Hi Dick:

Thanks - the diagram makes things very clear. I initially didn't think of 
accomplishing the split at the KXPA 3.5mm connector, but it makes sense.

Thanks,  73,

Steve NU7B


> On Jul 8, 2018, at 1:38 PM, d...@elecraft.com wrote:
> 
> Typically "sniffers" don't have the TX side connected.  RS-232 can't have
> multiple transmitters on either wire.
> 
> This is done with SteppIR controller, for similar reasons.  SteppIR
> describes a splitter cable for DE-9 connectors. The same principle (with a
> much simpler cable, just tip and ring) applies to the 3.5mm connector to the
> KXPA100.
> 
> http://www.steppir.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Y-Cable.pdf
> 
> 73 de Dick, K6KR
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
> Behalf Of Stephen Rector via Elecraft
> Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 12:31
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied
> 
> Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the
> RS232 port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop to
> the station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to sniff
> for frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This leaves no
> RS232 port left for remote control of the radio.
> 
> How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3
> control? My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs
> for data, I could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the
> controller serial port location. However, packets could still collide
> ...does the protocol handle this? Is there some sort of multiplexer
> available?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve
> 
> NU7B
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to d...@elecraft.com
> 

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Stephen Rector via Elecraft]

Hi Don:

Yes - it occurred to me after sending the post that I might be able to create 
the split at the KXPA with a stereo Y-cable/connector. I am using a KXUSB to 
the computer, with a KXSER cable going from the the antenna controller to the 
KXPA. It is the KXUSB that presently has no place to connect to.

So - I think I can try a 3.5mm stereo y-junction at the KXPA. Hopefully 
impedances won't be an issue at 38400 baud...

I did look for RS232 multiplexers - they seem to exist for industrial 
applications. The documentation seemed to be sparse on the web.

Anyway - thanks for the pointer :)

73,

Steve NU7B


> On Jul 8, 2018, at 1:37 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Are you using the KXUSB to connect with the KXPA100/KX3, or are you using the 
> KXSER with a real computer serial port or a USB to serial adapter?
> 
> Since your magloop controller only 'sniffs', it means it should only listen 
> and never try to transmit on the RS-232 signal lines.  If it only listens, 
> there will be no collisons (RS-232 is not packet oriented, but an 
> asynchronous communications system).
> 
> If the magloop controller also transmits on the RS-232 bus, you will need 
> some external device to act as "traffic cop" - note that RS-232 is a point to 
> point system (unlike Ethernet and others) where there is one driver device 
> and one receiver at each end.
> 
> So yes, you can use a splitter - one with a 3.5mm stereo plug and two 3.5mm 
> stereo jacks if using the KXUSB.
> If you are using the KXSER cable instead, yes, you can connect a "Y" DB9 
> splitter to the DB9 end of the KXSER cable - the computer connects to one 
> side and the magloop controller connects to the other side of the "Y".
> 
> On 7/8/2018 3:31 PM, Stephen Rector via Elecraft wrote:
>> Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the 
>> RS232 port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop to 
>> the station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to sniff 
>> for frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This leaves no 
>> RS232 port left for remote control of the radio.
>> How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3 
>> control? My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs 
>> for data, I could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the 
>> controller serial port location. However, packets could still collide 
>> ...does the protocol handle this? Is there some sort of multiplexer 
>> available?

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[dick]

Typically "sniffers" don't have the TX side connected.  RS-232 can't have
multiple transmitters on either wire.

This is done with SteppIR controller, for similar reasons.  SteppIR
describes a splitter cable for DE-9 connectors. The same principle (with a
much simpler cable, just tip and ring) applies to the 3.5mm connector to the
KXPA100.

 http://www.steppir.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Y-Cable.pdf

73 de Dick, K6KR


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Stephen Rector via Elecraft
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 12:31
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the
RS232 port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop to
the station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to sniff
for frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This leaves no
RS232 port left for remote control of the radio.

How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3
control? My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs
for data, I could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the
controller serial port location. However, packets could still collide
...does the protocol handle this? Is there some sort of multiplexer
available?

Thanks,

Steve

NU7B
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to d...@elecraft.com

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Don Wilhelm]

Steve,

Are you using the KXUSB to connect with the KXPA100/KX3, or are you 
using the KXSER with a real computer serial port or a USB to serial adapter?


Since your magloop controller only 'sniffs', it means it should only 
listen and never try to transmit on the RS-232 signal lines.  If it only 
listens, there will be no collisons (RS-232 is not packet oriented, but 
an asynchronous communications system).


If the magloop controller also transmits on the RS-232 bus, you will 
need some external device to act as "traffic cop" - note that RS-232 is 
a point to point system (unlike Ethernet and others) where there is one 
driver device and one receiver at each end.


So yes, you can use a splitter - one with a 3.5mm stereo plug and two 
3.5mm stereo jacks if using the KXUSB.
If you are using the KXSER cable instead, yes, you can connect a "Y" DB9 
splitter to the DB9 end of the KXSER cable - the computer connects to 
one side and the magloop controller connects to the other side of the "Y".


On 7/8/2018 3:31 PM, Stephen Rector via Elecraft wrote:

Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the RS232 
port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop to the 
station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to sniff for 
frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This leaves no RS232 port 
left for remote control of the radio.

How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3 control? 
My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs for data, I 
could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the controller serial 
port location. However, packets could still collide ...does the protocol handle 
this? Is there some sort of multiplexer available?


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

[Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[ANDY DURBIN]

"My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs for data, I 
could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the controller serial 
port location. However, packets could still collide ...does the protocol handle 
this? Is there some sort of multiplexer available?"


If only one device is doing the interrogating then there cannot be any conflict 
and there is nothing to multiplex. Typically the listening device will only 
need a 2 wire interface (TXD and GND). My KPA500 just listens to my TS-590 
responses to Omni-Rig. Multiple receivers can listen to an RS-232 transmitter, 
just be careful not to try to make a TX talk to a TX and that may happen if you 
make a poor choice of Y cable.


73,

Andy k3wyc
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

[Elecraft] [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

[Stephen Rector via Elecraft]

Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the RS232 
port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop to the 
station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to sniff for 
frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This leaves no RS232 port 
left for remote control of the radio.

How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3 control? 
My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs for data, I 
could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the controller serial 
port location. However, packets could still collide ...does the protocol handle 
this? Is there some sort of multiplexer available?

Thanks,

Steve

NU7B 
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com