RE: [Elecraft] ARRL 160
Dale, You make some great points on propagation, worth keeping in mind this weekend... Just did some propagation plots and 80M looks like it will be the place to be... Good chance to add to your DXCC totals. Ya say no one has a beam on the low low bands, you know 80 and 160? I know there are a couple JA stations with 3 elements on 80M, but check out pages 35 and 36 here: http://www.helsinki.fi/~korpela/PU/PU3_2008.pdf 5 (yes, five) full size elements on 80 AND 3 (!) full size elements on 160!!! many probably have logged OH8X in past contests, but these monsters should open up a whole new bunch of opportunities for folks with less than competitive antennas on 160/80! Julius Fazekas N2WN Tennessee Contest Group TnQP http://www.tnqp.org/ Elecraft K2/100 #3311 Elecraft K2/100 #4455 Elecraft K3/100 #366 --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Dale Putnam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dale Putnam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Elecraft] ARRL 160 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], elecraft@mailman.qth.net elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 7:46 PM Very good points, Julius, One of the mistakes that I make, and I hear being made is the feeling of not being able to be heard. That just works against us. Qro has the advantage of thinking powerful.. qrp, knows the power is in the operator and the props. Now.. we also know we can't control the props.. so.. the best we can do is take advantage of, and use to the best the props as they are. The second most important tool that we all have is the quality of operator... if you aren't as good as you want to be.. then that is correctable... but we must not feel poor op... feel GOOD op.. One doesn't have to work through a pile, with out learning a lot.. how did the successful ones do it different? How did they get through and you didn't? How did you and they didn't.. and one thing to note... as you get better take a not of how many QRO ops you pass it is a real blast to blow through the pileup, leaving stations calling, by being there at the right time, and with the exact set of skills to getter done. Oh.. and one last thing one may not assume that all signals are reciprical. He is loud, therefore I am loud.. ok... he is weak, therefore I will be weak to him... not true.. he is loud, I am weak... WHAT?? He is weak, I may be loud, if his beam is looking the other way and you say no one has beams on the low bands? Don't assume that one either... or I will miss you, and so will a number of other ops. --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy _ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_112008 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] ARRL 160
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:elecraft- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julius Fazekas Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:53 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; Dale Putnam Subject: RE: [Elecraft] ARRL 160 Dale, I know there are a couple JA stations with 3 elements on 80M, but check out pages 35 and 36 here: http://www.helsinki.fi/~korpela/PU/PU3_2008.pdf My buddy VE7SZ in Canada has a nice 80m Yagi. Only 3 elements though. Still bigger than the lot I live on! :) Forth picture from the top here: http://ka7ark.com/STOC/2006CanSTOC2/CanSTOC_2006.htm Adam - ka7ark ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] ARRL 160
Congrats Dale! There were, at least, two other K2s in the winner circle ;o) Gene, KB7Q and I both placed in the Top 10 SOLP... My certificate was waiting for me when I went home. Look forward to logging you and many other QRPers this year as well. A couple of suggestions for any new QRP Top Band Contesters: 1) Don't sign /QRP. It slows things down. 2) Don't repeat the 5NN exchange if asked for a repeat, particularly if band conditions are poor. 3) Don't QRS, except as a last resort, a fast exchange is easier to catch if there is a lot of QSB. 4) Do QSY around the guy you're calling if they don't come back to you. By this I mean use your RIT or XIT as you may be out of the passband. This is not unique to QRP, but can be to newbies. I usually run with my filters pretty wide (700 hz or so), but still have folks call well out of that range and they usually have decent signal. 5) Do try again. If someone is running, they will either come back to the loudest signal or the distinct one by pitch. My hearing does better with lower pitched signals. I've watched John, K4BAI, copy signals with ease ata much higher pitch. This goes hand in hand with item 4. If not, check back on your next sweep, when things slow down or on the second night of a contest like ARRL 160 or CQ WW DX. Running QRP is challenging and fun. It does require a bit more thought and different strategies. 73, Julius n2wn 6) Don't underestimate your signal. Seriously, some QRP signals are monstrous (no not just VY2ZM and his 4 Square Array hihi). Know your paths and your openings. Dale Putnam wrote: I just received the 2007 ARRL 160 1st place Single op QRP WY section certificate... The K2 does its best every day... And I don't even have the better antenna up yet. (again)(dog gone wind anyway) Thanks to everyone responsible, and to all the good ears that make this possible. C U in the next test... Listen for the other signals on the bands... not just the KILLER signals... and the K2 does that very well.. indeed.--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy _ Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the “I’m a PC” Messenger themepack now. hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/ARRL-160-tp1567274p1572087.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] ARRL 160
Very good points, Julius, One of the mistakes that I make, and I hear being made is the feeling of not being able to be heard. That just works against us. Qro has the advantage of thinking powerful.. qrp, knows the power is in the operator and the props. Now.. we also know we can't control the props.. so.. the best we can do is take advantage of, and use to the best the props as they are. The second most important tool that we all have is the quality of operator... if you aren't as good as you want to be.. then that is correctable... but we must not feel poor op... feel GOOD op.. One doesn't have to work through a pile, with out learning a lot.. how did the successful ones do it different? How did they get through and you didn't? How did you and they didn't.. and one thing to note... as you get better take a not of how many QRO ops you pass it is a real blast to blow through the pileup, leaving stations calling, by being there at the right time, and with the exact set of skills to getter done. Oh.. and one last thing one may not assume that all signals are reciprical. He is loud, therefore I am loud.. ok... he is weak, therefore I will be weak to him... not true.. he is loud, I am weak... WHAT?? He is weak, I may be loud, if his beam is looking the other way and you say no one has beams on the low bands? Don't assume that one either... or I will miss you, and so will a number of other ops. --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy _ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_112008 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] ARRL 160
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:46:54 -0700, Dale Putnam wrote: one may not assume that all signals are reciprical. He is loud, therefore I am loud This is especially true on 160M (and to some extent on 80M) where so many operators are fairly omni on transmit but may be highly directional on RX. This happens a lot early in the evening west coast time -- the East Coast is listening to EU Beverages and loops, and even though they're S7 to S9 here on the west coast, they can't hear us calling. Also remember that many of us have a lot more noise than others. I often have to run legal power to work a guy in a city who's giving me S7 with only 100 watts. 73, Jim K9YC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] ARRL 160
Dale, congratulations! Very impressive. 73 de Dave, W5SV Dale Putnam wrote: I just received the 2007 ARRL 160 1st place Single op QRP WY section certificate... The K2 does its best every day... And I don't even have the better antenna up yet. (again)(dog gone wind anyway) Thanks to everyone responsible, and to all the good ears that make this possible. C U in the next test... Listen for the other signals on the bands... not just the KILLER signals... and the K2 does that very well.. indeed. --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] ARRL 160
I just received the 2007 ARRL 160 1st place Single op QRP WY section certificate... The K2 does its best every day... And I don't even have the better antenna up yet. (again)(dog gone wind anyway) Thanks to everyone responsible, and to all the good ears that make this possible. C U in the next test... Listen for the other signals on the bands... not just the KILLER signals... and the K2 does that very well.. indeed.--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy _ Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the “I’m a PC” Messenger themepack now. hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] ARRL 160 Rx antenna
However, my questions (finally) are these: If I have a great Rx only antenna won't I be able to hear many more stations that I probably won't be able to work? Maybe not many more, but certainly more if your Tx antenna is lacking. That would be the case no matter your power level. Okay, so there is a possibility that some of those stations will also have great Rx antennas and so between the two of us we may be able to work where previously I may not have been able to hear (and hence work) them. But does anyone have any experience with this and care to comment? Sure, my previous 160M setup I used the vertical for Rx and Tx. I though I worked KL7 (an very hopeful ESP QSO) but it wasn't solid and I doubt he really worked me. Using a decent Rx antenna and the same vertical, I now have a solid QSO. I heard 8Q7 on 80M with a Rx antenna, just could crack the pileup with 100W and keep my rate up. Propagation is a big factor. Many DXpeditions report one way propagation, and I'm sure you've experienced it as well when someone is booming in, yet hears few if any SS. The guy I worked in Greece was using a 1000' Beverage for the USA (one and the longest of 4 that he had total) and I think was running about 800W. With my Carolina Windom at about 45' that I used on both Tx Rx I was barely able to copy him initially, then as his signal finally improved so that I could copy so-so, good enough to copy his callsign after enough times of him calling CQ or a few people now and again answering him (while there was several big pileups a few kHz above). This is great DX, sounds like propagation was on your side most of all. Timing is everything as well, that window of opportunity may only have lasted 5 to 15 minutes! Catch you in the next one... 73, Julius n2wn ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] ARRL 160
If anyone needs a QSL from Orange County, NY for the ARRL 160M test (or any other QSO's for that matter) send SASE and I'll get one out to you. Tom K2TA K2/AT/100 #1117 Tom Althoff PO Box 1259 Greenwood Lake, NY 10925 - Original Message - From: J F [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:38 AM Subject: [Elecraft] ARRL 160 Greetings All, I'd like to collect QSLs from everyone using an Elecraft in the contest this past weekend. I managed to work all 50 states and thought it would be really neat it they were all Elecraft users. There are some really outstanding scores from K2 users posted on 3830 already. This was the first time I used the Rx Antenna feature and it was invaluable. Thanks to everyone for a great 'test! 73, Julius n2wn K2/100 #3311 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] ARRL 160 Rx antenna
Julius, Would you (or anyone) please elaborate on the use of an Rx antenna? Thanks Bill K3UJ This was the first time I used the Rx Antenna feature and it was invaluable. Thanks to everyone for a great 'test! 73, Julius n2wn K2/100 #3311 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] ARRL 160 Rx antenna
Bill, Often low efficiency antennas make great low noise receiving antennas - example is a multiturn loop which can be quite directional, but transmit efficincy would be almost 'zip'. Another example is traveling wave antennas such as the Beverage - which also are directional, but the efficiency is low and therefore unsuitable for transmitting. By using the K2 Rant, one can automatically select the Rx antenna on any band separate from the selection of the transmitting antenna. This is often used with great success on 160 (and 80 meters) where a low noise directional antenna is used for receiving and a vertical is used for transmitting. 73, Don W3FPR -Original Message- Julius, Would you (or anyone) please elaborate on the use of an Rx antenna? Thanks Bill K3UJ This was the first time I used the Rx Antenna feature and it was invaluable. Thanks to everyone for a great 'test! 73, Julius n2wn K2/100 #3311 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] ARRL 160 Rx antenna
On Dec 6, 2005, at 8:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would you (or anyone) please elaborate on the use of an Rx antenna? The fundamental problem on the low bands is the high noise level. A good transmitting antenna can often have S6-9 noise, or worse. It's hard to hear weak signals with all that noise. As W8JI would put it, the characteristics of a good transmitting antenna and a good receiving antenna aren't the same. A transmitting antenna should have gain in a particular direction (and angle) in order to place the most signal into the target area. For receive, at least until you get into the upper VHF region, gain isn't really important. The problem is noise -- you can pick up the ambient noise on the band with barely any antenna at all -- all that gain just brings more noise into the radio. For receive, the important thing isn't gain, but antenna pattern. An antenna with a good pattern will ignore noise (and QRM) from directions outside the target area. Less noise means better signal to noise ratio. Signals that aren't audible on the transmitting antenna are then audible on the receiving antenna. There are many designs for effective low-band receiving antennas. These are quite lossy, having gain 20-30 dB below that of a transmitting antenna. Examples include Beverage antennas, Flags, Pennants, EWEs, K9AY loops. Despite being lossy, they can have quite sharp patterns, especially the Beverage antenna. Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASELMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quote: Not within a thousand years will man ever fly! -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] ARRL 160 Rx antenna
Bill and others, The explanations by Don Ron were as always right on and very helpful. I already knew the answers but enjoyed reading the replies anyway. I still have questions, though, too, so please continue to read on (we get there eventually). I would like to point out a couple of resources for more info on the topic. First is a book by John Devoldere, ON4UN called 80m DXing, oops, sorry, I'm showing my age, it is now called Low Band DXing or Antennas and Techniques on Low Band DXing. I did a quick Google search and guess I should pick up a more up to date version of the book. The copy I have is from 1978 and was an excellent resource at that time. Recently looking through it some info is obviously dated (comparison of different radios now considered to be vintage although still excellent rigs even compared to today's newer radios, such as the Drake R4B/C, Kenwood TS820, Collins S-Line/KWM2, Signal One CX7, Collins R390, Heath SB101, etc) while other information is timeless (theoretical and practical info on the antennas for the most part as well as operating practices). It gives lots of great info on these subjects with practical examples from a time honored expert. Another book that is about 10 years newer for the copy I have which is a 2nd edition, although it looks like the latest release that is still available is the 3rd edition, but I'm not sure when it came out, is called The Beverage Antenna Handbook by Victor Misek, W1WCR. This book includes topics on single wire Travelling Wave Antennas multiple wire Steerable Wave Antennas. As is the case for most ham related books it is mostly practical and only moderately theoretical. Both of the above examples require a bit of real estate, or at least a cooperative neighbor. I convinced my neighbor at one time that the wire I proposed to run out onto his property was only used for Rx and I guaranteed to him that *it* would not cause interference. This negotiation worked and my neighbor and I still have a good relationship to this day (long after I've moved away, although my moving away is not the reason for our good relationship these days!). I've seen other installations that have also taken advantage of a good neighbor policy. Try it, it works! Other Rx antennas that are popular lately and work almost as well without nearly as much real estate which you should be able to find more info on the web include the EWE Array or K9AY loops. I'm currently investigating the latter along with a small magnetic loop (oh, I thought it was small for 160m at about 12' diameter, maybe I should make it smaller yet!). Okay, now for the questions that I have. Having recently worked several stations surprisingly easily with my K2 at 5W during the recent Top Band contests (both the ARRL as well as the less active QRP ARCI a few days before) I am intrigued with possibilities of a Rx Only antenna. I know the old saying that You gotta hear 'em before you can work 'em surely applies, however, I think that especially when running QRP the station on the other end has much more work to be able to hear your signal, so they need to likely have an even better Rx station than you have. There were several stations which I couldn't work that had moderate (not strong and not weak) signals during this past weekend. Maybe if they had better Rx antennas I could have worked them. I tried several different times hoping that conditions maybe had improved. Generally this was on Friday night while at my QTH Saturday night didn't seem as good. However, my questions (finally) are these: If I have a great Rx only antenna won't I be able to hear many more stations that I probably won't be able to work? Okay, so there is a possibility that some of those stations will also have great Rx antennas and so between the two of us we may be able to work where previously I may not have been able to hear (and hence work) them. But does anyone have any experience with this and care to comment? I'm not trying to gather this information to discourage the attemps, just looking for some practical experience on this as part of a reality check. I have only so far worked one European station and heard very few on 160m, but my experiences on 160m with the K2 are just beginning. The guy I worked in Greece was using a 1000' Beverage for the USA (one and the longest of 4 that he had total) and I think was running about 800W. With my Carolina Windom at about 45' that I used on both Tx Rx I was barely able to copy him initially, then as his signal finally improved so that I could copy so-so, good enough to copy his callsign after enough times of him calling CQ or a few people now and again answering him (while there was several big pileups a few kHz above). Finally when I was sure of his call I called him and he came back and fairly quickly the QSO was in the logbook! I remember giving him a 559, which was
