[Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Andy Durbin]

"Tell them politely and hope they listen, but most will just continue."

That's not my experience.  Several times I have emailed screen shots showing 
dirty digital mode signals and offered to help resolve the problem.  In most 
case the operator was pleased to have been notified and fixed the problem.

73,
Andy, k3wyc
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Re: [Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Hal Massey]

Training shouldn’t be overlooked. When did it become ok to not know what your 
transmitter was doing? 

> On Jun 14, 2021, at 16:32, Julia Tuttle  wrote:
> 
> I'd say all of these are true:
> 
> Radios may be faulty in ways that cause problems, stations with functional 
> radios be configured in ways that cause problems, and functional stations may 
> operated in ways that cause problems.
> 
> Hams should be *held responsible*, but should not be *condemned*, if  their 
> stations are causing problems and they're not aware.
> 
> Hams should inform each other politely if their stations are causing 
> problems, and should fix their stations if so informed.
> 
> Hams may condemn each other if they knowingly continue to operate a station 
> that is causing problems.
> 
> You can't always point a finger at the radio, station configuration, or 
> operator in isolation, and it's not generally helpful anyway.
> 
> "What constitutes a problem?" is still a pretty open question though.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Julie
> 
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 18:01 Hal Massey  > wrote:
> Aren’t the radios inanimate objects?  Therefore it must be the operators that 
> are accountable.
> 
> > On Jun 14, 2021, at 12:49, David Gilbert  > > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I'm not ignoring that at all, and I don't know what in my post makes you 
> > think I am.I've been in lots of contests where the operator is either 
> > unwittingly or intentionally putting trash on the band (there are hams on 
> > the Contesting reflector who have publicly admitted intentionally creating 
> > clicks to give themselves more elbow room), but it doesn't change the fact 
> > that there are also some pretty poor transmitters out there that were 
> > purchased by people who either didn't know it or didn't care.
> > 
> > Dave  AB7E
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 6/14/2021 8:46 AM, Hal Massey wrote:
> >> You may be ignoring the fact that there are far more bad operators than 
> >> bad radios...
> >> 
> >>> On Jun 13, 2021, at 14:26, David Gilbert  >>>   >>> >> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> I think you're ignoring that what might not be "bad" for the user could 
> >>> still be bad for everyone else.
> >>> 
> >>> In my opinion, poorly designed radios shouldn't be supported by the user 
> >>> base, period ... and that includes the people who make recommendations.
> >>> 
> >>> Dave  AB7E
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On 6/13/2021 12:10 PM, Geoffrey Feldman wrote:
>  Having worked retailing amateur radios, people often ask which is best.
>  Also often they are absolutely convinced they know the answer because 
>  their
>  Elmer said so.   When I review what someone actually wants to do with the
>  hobby and get a sense of their budget, I can advise them.  A new Ham 
>  often
>  hasn't a clear idea what they want to do.  Knowing most of what is
>  available, there are no truly "bad radios" that would be unsuited for 
>  anyone
>  at all.  Not everyone can afford "the best".  Not everyone can use the 
>  best.
>  New operators may not even be able to manage a ton of fancier features. 
>  New
>  Hams may not know there is more to the hobby than whatever their Elmer 
>  has
>  locked on to (20+ years ago).   Life in an HOA or a city with much RFI
>  directs from most expensive and top of the line towards something 
>  portable.
>  The visibility provided by  a Pan Adapter function is especially 
>  important.
>  Personally I have a KX3, PX3, KXPA100.  I also own an IC 7300.  My
>  recommendations at work would tend to what I can sell of course.  If 
>  someone
>  knows what they want, they buy it.   I find too that upselling the radio 
>  is
>  not productive either.  Once someone has a radio they will need antennas,
>  feed lines, maybe a tuner, wire, rope, books, power poles, antenna 
>  analyzer
>  - all that stuff is the really great stuff J  Also, if someone gets a 
>  lot of
>  books, they will learn other aspects of the hobby and  get another radio 
>  and
>  the cycle repeats.
>  
>   
>  Geoff
>  
>  W1GCF
>  
>  __
>  Elecraft mailing list
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>   
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Re: [Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Don Wilhelm]

The 50s and the 60s had a lot of radios that did not meet the current 
FCC requirements.  Clicks and chirps were quite evident on the bands.  
Some were gradually culled out as those radios were taken out of 
service, but I think it was not until the 90s that we saw a great 
reduction in those radios.

This was not operator faults, but deficiencies with the radios.

In modern times, many hams overdrive their radios resulting in bad 
performance, and that can be termed operator problems, assuming he is 
using a clean radio.


Those who intentionally produce clicks or turn the mic gain up so high 
as to splatter should be ashamed.  One can make plenty of contacts in a 
contest with a clean signal.
I have operated a K3 in crowded band conditions - Field Day - and there 
were only a few stations that could not be worked.


Now, if each radio had a hand to slap the operator in the forehead when 
he was transmitting a dirty signal, that might bring an end to this 
problem.  In the meantime, it is up to other operators to call out dirty 
signals.
Straight Key Night were some drag out their 1950s and 1960s rigs may be 
an exception to this "rule".


73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/14/2021 7:41 PM, Mark via Elecraft wrote:

Those that think there are bad radios now don’t remember those of 60s.  I hear 
the same signals that sound bad on the bands.


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Re: [Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Mark via Elecraft]

Those that think there are bad radios now don’t remember those of 60s.  I hear 
the same signals that sound bad on the bands.  I hear amplified signal with no 
thought of overdriving.  I have seen CW almost as wide as a SSB.   I worked a 
PSK-31 station that was running 100 watts when I was 20 and he’s said solid 
copy.   The audio scope showed sidebands out of the digital area.   
 The radios can be better but the operator seems to be most of the problem.  
Tell them politely and hope they listen, but most will just continue. “CQ 
Contest”
Mark.  WB7TLK


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 14, 2021, at 3:34 PM, Julia Tuttle  wrote:
> 
> I'd say all of these are true:
> 
> Radios may be faulty in ways that cause problems, stations with functional
> radios be configured in ways that cause problems, and functional stations
> may operated in ways that cause problems.
> 
> Hams should be *held responsible*, but should not be *condemned*, if  their
> stations are causing problems and they're not aware.
> 
> Hams should inform each other politely if their stations are causing
> problems, and should fix their stations if so informed.
> 
> Hams may condemn each other if they knowingly continue to operate a station
> that is causing problems.
> 
> You can't always point a finger at the radio, station configuration, or
> operator in isolation, and it's not generally helpful anyway.
> 
> "What constitutes a problem?" is still a pretty open question though.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Julie
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 18:01 Hal Massey  wrote:
>> 
>> Aren’t the radios inanimate objects?  Therefore it must be the operators
>> that are accountable.
>> 
 On Jun 14, 2021, at 12:49, David Gilbert  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I'm not ignoring that at all, and I don't know what in my post makes you
>> think I am.I've been in lots of contests where the operator is either
>> unwittingly or intentionally putting trash on the band (there are hams on
>> the Contesting reflector who have publicly admitted intentionally creating
>> clicks to give themselves more elbow room), but it doesn't change the fact
>> that there are also some pretty poor transmitters out there that were
>> purchased by people who either didn't know it or didn't care.
>>> 
>>> Dave  AB7E
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 6/14/2021 8:46 AM, Hal Massey wrote:
 You may be ignoring the fact that there are far more bad operators than
>> bad radios...
 
> On Jun 13, 2021, at 14:26, David Gilbert > ab7e...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> I think you're ignoring that what might not be "bad" for the user
>> could still be bad for everyone else.
> 
> In my opinion, poorly designed radios shouldn't be supported by the
>> user base, period ... and that includes the people who make recommendations.
> 
> Dave  AB7E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/13/2021 12:10 PM, Geoffrey Feldman wrote:
>> Having worked retailing amateur radios, people often ask which is
>> best.
>> Also often they are absolutely convinced they know the answer because
>> their
>> Elmer said so.   When I review what someone actually wants to do with
>> the
>> hobby and get a sense of their budget, I can advise them.  A new Ham
>> often
>> hasn't a clear idea what they want to do.  Knowing most of what is
>> available, there are no truly "bad radios" that would be unsuited for
>> anyone
>> at all.  Not everyone can afford "the best".  Not everyone can use
>> the best.
>> New operators may not even be able to manage a ton of fancier
>> features. New
>> Hams may not know there is more to the hobby than whatever their
>> Elmer has
>> locked on to (20+ years ago).   Life in an HOA or a city with much RFI
>> directs from most expensive and top of the line towards something
>> portable.
>> The visibility provided by  a Pan Adapter function is especially
>> important.
>> Personally I have a KX3, PX3, KXPA100.  I also own an IC 7300.  My
>> recommendations at work would tend to what I can sell of course.  If
>> someone
>> knows what they want, they buy it.   I find too that upselling the
>> radio is
>> not productive either.  Once someone has a radio they will need
>> antennas,
>> feed lines, maybe a tuner, wire, rope, books, power poles, antenna
>> analyzer
>> - all that stuff is the really great stuff J  Also, if someone gets a
>> lot of
>> books, they will learn other aspects of the hobby and  get another
>> radio and
>> the cycle repeats.
>> 
>> 
>> Geoff
>> 
>> W1GCF
>> 
>> __
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>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft <
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
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>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net 

Re: [Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Julia Tuttle]

I'd say all of these are true:

Radios may be faulty in ways that cause problems, stations with functional
radios be configured in ways that cause problems, and functional stations
may operated in ways that cause problems.

Hams should be *held responsible*, but should not be *condemned*, if  their
stations are causing problems and they're not aware.

Hams should inform each other politely if their stations are causing
problems, and should fix their stations if so informed.

Hams may condemn each other if they knowingly continue to operate a station
that is causing problems.

You can't always point a finger at the radio, station configuration, or
operator in isolation, and it's not generally helpful anyway.

"What constitutes a problem?" is still a pretty open question though.

73,

Julie

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 18:01 Hal Massey  wrote:

> Aren’t the radios inanimate objects?  Therefore it must be the operators
> that are accountable.
>
> > On Jun 14, 2021, at 12:49, David Gilbert  wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm not ignoring that at all, and I don't know what in my post makes you
> think I am.I've been in lots of contests where the operator is either
> unwittingly or intentionally putting trash on the band (there are hams on
> the Contesting reflector who have publicly admitted intentionally creating
> clicks to give themselves more elbow room), but it doesn't change the fact
> that there are also some pretty poor transmitters out there that were
> purchased by people who either didn't know it or didn't care.
> >
> > Dave  AB7E
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/14/2021 8:46 AM, Hal Massey wrote:
> >> You may be ignoring the fact that there are far more bad operators than
> bad radios...
> >>
> >>> On Jun 13, 2021, at 14:26, David Gilbert  ab7e...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I think you're ignoring that what might not be "bad" for the user
> could still be bad for everyone else.
> >>>
> >>> In my opinion, poorly designed radios shouldn't be supported by the
> user base, period ... and that includes the people who make recommendations.
> >>>
> >>> Dave  AB7E
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 6/13/2021 12:10 PM, Geoffrey Feldman wrote:
>  Having worked retailing amateur radios, people often ask which is
> best.
>  Also often they are absolutely convinced they know the answer because
> their
>  Elmer said so.   When I review what someone actually wants to do with
> the
>  hobby and get a sense of their budget, I can advise them.  A new Ham
> often
>  hasn't a clear idea what they want to do.  Knowing most of what is
>  available, there are no truly "bad radios" that would be unsuited for
> anyone
>  at all.  Not everyone can afford "the best".  Not everyone can use
> the best.
>  New operators may not even be able to manage a ton of fancier
> features. New
>  Hams may not know there is more to the hobby than whatever their
> Elmer has
>  locked on to (20+ years ago).   Life in an HOA or a city with much RFI
>  directs from most expensive and top of the line towards something
> portable.
>  The visibility provided by  a Pan Adapter function is especially
> important.
>  Personally I have a KX3, PX3, KXPA100.  I also own an IC 7300.  My
>  recommendations at work would tend to what I can sell of course.  If
> someone
>  knows what they want, they buy it.   I find too that upselling the
> radio is
>  not productive either.  Once someone has a radio they will need
> antennas,
>  feed lines, maybe a tuner, wire, rope, books, power poles, antenna
> analyzer
>  - all that stuff is the really great stuff J  Also, if someone gets a
> lot of
>  books, they will learn other aspects of the hobby and  get another
> radio and
>  the cycle repeats.
> 
> 
>  Geoff
> 
>  W1GCF
> 
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> >>>
> >>> __
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> http://www.q

Re: [Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Hal Massey]

Aren’t the radios inanimate objects?  Therefore it must be the operators that 
are accountable.

> On Jun 14, 2021, at 12:49, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm not ignoring that at all, and I don't know what in my post makes you 
> think I am.I've been in lots of contests where the operator is either 
> unwittingly or intentionally putting trash on the band (there are hams on the 
> Contesting reflector who have publicly admitted intentionally creating clicks 
> to give themselves more elbow room), but it doesn't change the fact that 
> there are also some pretty poor transmitters out there that were purchased by 
> people who either didn't know it or didn't care.
> 
> Dave  AB7E
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/14/2021 8:46 AM, Hal Massey wrote:
>> You may be ignoring the fact that there are far more bad operators than bad 
>> radios...
>> 
>>> On Jun 13, 2021, at 14:26, David Gilbert >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I think you're ignoring that what might not be "bad" for the user could 
>>> still be bad for everyone else.
>>> 
>>> In my opinion, poorly designed radios shouldn't be supported by the user 
>>> base, period ... and that includes the people who make recommendations.
>>> 
>>> Dave  AB7E
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 6/13/2021 12:10 PM, Geoffrey Feldman wrote:
 Having worked retailing amateur radios, people often ask which is best.
 Also often they are absolutely convinced they know the answer because their
 Elmer said so.   When I review what someone actually wants to do with the
 hobby and get a sense of their budget, I can advise them.  A new Ham often
 hasn't a clear idea what they want to do.  Knowing most of what is
 available, there are no truly "bad radios" that would be unsuited for 
 anyone
 at all.  Not everyone can afford "the best".  Not everyone can use the 
 best.
 New operators may not even be able to manage a ton of fancier features. New
 Hams may not know there is more to the hobby than whatever their Elmer has
 locked on to (20+ years ago).   Life in an HOA or a city with much RFI
 directs from most expensive and top of the line towards something portable.
 The visibility provided by  a Pan Adapter function is especially important.
 Personally I have a KX3, PX3, KXPA100.  I also own an IC 7300.  My
 recommendations at work would tend to what I can sell of course.  If 
 someone
 knows what they want, they buy it.   I find too that upselling the radio is
 not productive either.  Once someone has a radio they will need antennas,
 feed lines, maybe a tuner, wire, rope, books, power poles, antenna analyzer
 - all that stuff is the really great stuff J  Also, if someone gets a lot 
 of
 books, they will learn other aspects of the hobby and  get another radio 
 and
 the cycle repeats.
 
  
 Geoff
 
 W1GCF
 
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>>> 
>>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[David Gilbert]

I'm not ignoring that at all, and I don't know what in my post makes you 
think I am.    I've been in lots of contests where the operator is 
either unwittingly or intentionally putting trash on the band (there are 
hams on the Contesting reflector who have publicly admitted 
intentionally creating clicks to give themselves more elbow room), but 
it doesn't change the fact that there are also some pretty poor 
transmitters out there that were purchased by people who either didn't 
know it or didn't care.


Dave  AB7E



On 6/14/2021 8:46 AM, Hal Massey wrote:
You may be ignoring the fact that there are far more bad operators 
than bad radios...


On Jun 13, 2021, at 14:26, David Gilbert > wrote:



I think you're ignoring that what might not be "bad" for the user 
could still be bad for everyone else.


In my opinion, poorly designed radios shouldn't be supported by the 
user base, period ... and that includes the people who make 
recommendations.


Dave  AB7E




On 6/13/2021 12:10 PM, Geoffrey Feldman wrote:

Having worked retailing amateur radios, people often ask which is best.
Also often they are absolutely convinced they know the answer 
because their
Elmer said so.   When I review what someone actually wants to do 
with the
hobby and get a sense of their budget, I can advise them.  A new Ham 
often

hasn't a clear idea what they want to do.  Knowing most of what is
available, there are no truly "bad radios" that would be unsuited 
for anyone
at all.  Not everyone can afford "the best".  Not everyone can use 
the best.
New operators may not even be able to manage a ton of fancier 
features. New
Hams may not know there is more to the hobby than whatever their 
Elmer has

locked on to (20+ years ago).   Life in an HOA or a city with much RFI
directs from most expensive and top of the line towards something 
portable.
The visibility provided by  a Pan Adapter function is especially 
important.

Personally I have a KX3, PX3, KXPA100.  I also own an IC 7300.  My
recommendations at work would tend to what I can sell of course.  If 
someone
knows what they want, they buy it.   I find too that upselling the 
radio is
not productive either.  Once someone has a radio they will need 
antennas,
feed lines, maybe a tuner, wire, rope, books, power poles, antenna 
analyzer
- all that stuff is the really great stuff J  Also, if someone gets 
a lot of
books, they will learn other aspects of the hobby and  get another 
radio and

the cycle repeats.


Geoff

W1GCF

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Re: [Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Hal Massey]

You may be ignoring the fact that there are far more bad operators than bad 
radios...

> On Jun 13, 2021, at 14:26, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> 
> I think you're ignoring that what might not be "bad" for the user could still 
> be bad for everyone else.
> 
> In my opinion, poorly designed radios shouldn't be supported by the user 
> base, period ... and that includes the people who make recommendations.
> 
> Dave  AB7E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/13/2021 12:10 PM, Geoffrey Feldman wrote:
>> Having worked retailing amateur radios, people often ask which is best.
>> Also often they are absolutely convinced they know the answer because their
>> Elmer said so.   When I review what someone actually wants to do with the
>> hobby and get a sense of their budget, I can advise them.  A new Ham often
>> hasn't a clear idea what they want to do.  Knowing most of what is
>> available, there are no truly "bad radios" that would be unsuited for anyone
>> at all.  Not everyone can afford "the best".  Not everyone can use the best.
>> New operators may not even be able to manage a ton of fancier features. New
>> Hams may not know there is more to the hobby than whatever their Elmer has
>> locked on to (20+ years ago).   Life in an HOA or a city with much RFI
>> directs from most expensive and top of the line towards something portable.
>> The visibility provided by  a Pan Adapter function is especially important.
>> Personally I have a KX3, PX3, KXPA100.  I also own an IC 7300.  My
>> recommendations at work would tend to what I can sell of course.  If someone
>> knows what they want, they buy it.   I find too that upselling the radio is
>> not productive either.  Once someone has a radio they will need antennas,
>> feed lines, maybe a tuner, wire, rope, books, power poles, antenna analyzer
>> - all that stuff is the really great stuff J  Also, if someone gets a lot of
>> books, they will learn other aspects of the hobby and  get another radio and
>> the cycle repeats.
>> 
>>  
>> Geoff
>> 
>> W1GCF
>> 
>> __
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>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>> Message delivered to ab7e...@gmail.com 
> 
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[David Gilbert]

I think you're ignoring that what might not be "bad" for the user could 
still be bad for everyone else.


In my opinion, poorly designed radios shouldn't be supported by the user 
base, period ... and that includes the people who make recommendations.


Dave  AB7E




On 6/13/2021 12:10 PM, Geoffrey Feldman wrote:

Having worked retailing amateur radios, people often ask which is best.
Also often they are absolutely convinced they know the answer because their
Elmer said so.   When I review what someone actually wants to do with the
hobby and get a sense of their budget, I can advise them.  A new Ham often
hasn't a clear idea what they want to do.  Knowing most of what is
available, there are no truly "bad radios" that would be unsuited for anyone
at all.  Not everyone can afford "the best".  Not everyone can use the best.
New operators may not even be able to manage a ton of fancier features. New
Hams may not know there is more to the hobby than whatever their Elmer has
locked on to (20+ years ago).   Life in an HOA or a city with much RFI
directs from most expensive and top of the line towards something portable.
The visibility provided by  a Pan Adapter function is especially important.
Personally I have a KX3, PX3, KXPA100.  I also own an IC 7300.  My
recommendations at work would tend to what I can sell of course.  If someone
knows what they want, they buy it.   I find too that upselling the radio is
not productive either.  Once someone has a radio they will need antennas,
feed lines, maybe a tuner, wire, rope, books, power poles, antenna analyzer
- all that stuff is the really great stuff J  Also, if someone gets a lot of
books, they will learn other aspects of the hobby and  get another radio and
the cycle repeats.

  


Geoff

W1GCF

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Re: [Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Nate Bargmann]

Yes!

Heathkit HW-5400--run away

After that they're all fairly decent.

New ops will benefit most from understanding and learning to use the
attenuator, when to use the RF preamp (if controllable) or not, and
understanding and learning to use the RF gain effectively.  These are
the basics of about any receiver on the market today and should be
mastered.  After that other aspects of the receiver can be mastered.

73, Nate, N0NB

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819

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Re: [Elecraft] [ELECRAFT] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Brian Maynard]

Great thoughts on radio purchases Geoff. I have owned all the major brands - 
kenwood, icom, yaesu, ten tec - at least 2x each - and got both great contacts 
and valuable learning time on every one. I now own a K3, KPA500, P3 and KAT500, 
which could be my last radio and that would be fine with me. If I can resist 
the pull of a K4!

Brian, K1NW
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[Elecraft] Are there any "bad radios"?

[Geoffrey Feldman]

Having worked retailing amateur radios, people often ask which is best.
Also often they are absolutely convinced they know the answer because their
Elmer said so.   When I review what someone actually wants to do with the
hobby and get a sense of their budget, I can advise them.  A new Ham often
hasn't a clear idea what they want to do.  Knowing most of what is
available, there are no truly "bad radios" that would be unsuited for anyone
at all.  Not everyone can afford "the best".  Not everyone can use the best.
New operators may not even be able to manage a ton of fancier features. New
Hams may not know there is more to the hobby than whatever their Elmer has
locked on to (20+ years ago).   Life in an HOA or a city with much RFI
directs from most expensive and top of the line towards something portable.
The visibility provided by  a Pan Adapter function is especially important.
Personally I have a KX3, PX3, KXPA100.  I also own an IC 7300.  My
recommendations at work would tend to what I can sell of course.  If someone
knows what they want, they buy it.   I find too that upselling the radio is
not productive either.  Once someone has a radio they will need antennas,
feed lines, maybe a tuner, wire, rope, books, power poles, antenna analyzer
- all that stuff is the really great stuff J  Also, if someone gets a lot of
books, they will learn other aspects of the hobby and  get another radio and
the cycle repeats.

 

Geoff

W1GCF

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