[Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Bob McGraw]

The logical explanation is from Keith, one of the K3 techs at 
Elecraft.   He said;  "avoid 5 watts and 50 watts" That's 
logical enough for me.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 1/16/2022 11:40 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 07:06:34 -0700
From: Wes
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO
Message-ID:<2bd9c23b-1ee9-0976-f88e-c4dd25080...@triconet.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

It is not in the manual, but has appeared here many times, without logical
explanation.

Wes? N7WS

On 1/16/2022 6:52 AM,j...@kk9a.com  wrote:

I have not heard this either. Is this in the manual? 5 watts would be a
tough output to avoid if you enjoy QRP.

John KK9A

KE8G wrote:

Hmm, I've never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn't be run.

73 de KE8G - Jim


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[Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Bob McGraw]

In SSB mode, until you speak into the mike, there is no output signal in 
transmit mode.  Switch to CW mode, key the radio via an external key or 
paddle and see what you have.  Or press XMIT/TUNE function for 2 
seconds.  You should have output.   Also check to see what value of PWR 
is set on the radio.    I use 20 watts for TUNE for all bands when the 
KPA500 is in OPER  mode.



73

Bob, K4TAX


On 1/16/2022 8:01 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 10:15:29 -0600
From: rikoski
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Cc: Richard Rikoski
Subject: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8

I have a K3, P3, KAT500 and KPA500. I was listening in the middle of a QSO and 
lost signal.

I tested my antenna with a back up transceiver and the antenna and coax are 
good.

The P3 still shows signals but only hiss comes out of the K3?s speaker.

Keying the k3 by pressing the attached foot pedal turns on the red Tx light on 
the K3 but the display on the KPA500 shows an asterisk to the left of the power 
out reading of zero on its display.

No signal goes to the antenna and nothing besides hiss comes out of the speaker.

What should I do next?

Thanks. W9ZD


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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Geert Jan de Groot]

On 16/01/2022 18:40, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

It is not in the manual, but has appeared here many times, without logical
explanation.


It actually is in the manual, but not very clearly: K3S rev A1 manual 
page 67 (TXGN parameter), K3 rev D10 manual page 62 (TXGN parameter).


But it is not clear, it is undesired behavior, and it's something that 
can be changed by a simple software fix.


I've added the issue to the list of Elecraft issues:
https://github.com/drewarnett/kx3-firmware-issues/issues

Unfortunately Elecraft has been less than forthcoming addressing any of 
these issues, which in most cases should not be hard to fix.


73, Geert Jan
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Rick Tavan]

At risk of error paraphrasing prior discussions, let me try to explain:
Elecraft implemented the implicit gain calibration at 5 and 50W believing
that it was a subtle and harmless way of triggering gain cal. Users could
do it intentionally (albeit tediously) and if it happened accidentally it
would be quick and transparent, all but invisible to the user. Field
testers and others objected on the grounds that they didn't want
calibration to recur if they "accidentally" or on purpose set power to the
magic levels, clearly rather common power targets. So Elecraft provided a
switch in MENU | "TX Gain Cal via TUNE". If it's ON, you get the original,
automatic, single-band, single-power level calibration at 5 or 50W
settings. If it's OFF, you need to do gain calibration yourself. N6TV
developed a *k4cal* command-line utility that automates this process, doing
5 and 50W calibration on all bands in "one swell foop." It takes about a
minute and leaves your K4 settings exactly as they were prior to execution
except that gain cal has been done thoroughly. It provides an output report
showing how much things changed, although interpreting the numbers is left
to the student.

At further risk of perhaps providing an old link, I'll suggest
https://www.kkn.net/~n6tv/K4cal.zip as a way to get Bob's utility. If
that's obsolete, eagle-eye Bob will probably catch it and provide a better
link.  ;-)  Maybe some day this and other utilities from N6TV, Elecraft,
and others could be combined into a single, GUI-controlled package
accessible from the Elecraft Web site. But that would be a while into the
future, if ever.

73,

/Rick N6XI

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 9:41 AM David Gilbert  wrote:

>
> That begs the questions of why it ISN'T in the manual or tech note
> addendum, and why it hasn't been addressed by Elecraft.
>
> Worst case, it would make more sense to have the gain calibration done
> at some odd power level like 5.3 watts and 53 watts instead of power
> levels that users would typically set.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On 1/16/2022 7:41 AM, Richard Ferch wrote:
> > You may or may not consider this logical, but: The description of the
> > transmitter gain calibration procedure in the manual does not call up any
> > special calibration menu. It just says transmit a carrier at exactly 5.0
> > watts or exactly 50 watts. Apparently the firmware uses these power level
> > settings as a trigger to do a gain calibration.
> >
> > Not wanting to do unexpected gain calibrations while operating, I have
> > always set my power to 4.9 watts when I want to operate QRP, and to 49
> > watts if I want to operate at 50 watts.
> >
> > I am fairly sure I saw a post here by one of the elecraft techs about
> this
> > not so very long ago.
> >
> > 73,
> > Rich VE3KI
> >
> >
> > N7WS wrote:
> >
> > It is not in the manual, but has appeared here many times, without
> logical
> > explanation.
> >
> > Wes   N7WS
> >
> > On 1/16/2022 6:52 AM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> >> I have not heard this either. Is this in the manual? 5 watts would be a
> >> tough output to avoid if you enjoy QRP.
> >>
> >> John KK9A
> >>
> >> KE8G wrote:
> >>
> >> Hmm, I've never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn't be run.
> >>
> >> 73 de KE8G - Jim
> >>
> > __
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-- 
--

Rick Tavan
Truckee and Saratoga, CA
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[David Gilbert]

That begs the questions of why it ISN'T in the manual or tech note 
addendum, and why it hasn't been addressed by Elecraft.


Worst case, it would make more sense to have the gain calibration done 
at some odd power level like 5.3 watts and 53 watts instead of power 
levels that users would typically set.


Dave


On 1/16/2022 7:41 AM, Richard Ferch wrote:

You may or may not consider this logical, but: The description of the
transmitter gain calibration procedure in the manual does not call up any
special calibration menu. It just says transmit a carrier at exactly 5.0
watts or exactly 50 watts. Apparently the firmware uses these power level
settings as a trigger to do a gain calibration.

Not wanting to do unexpected gain calibrations while operating, I have
always set my power to 4.9 watts when I want to operate QRP, and to 49
watts if I want to operate at 50 watts.

I am fairly sure I saw a post here by one of the elecraft techs about this
not so very long ago.

73,
Rich VE3KI


N7WS wrote:

It is not in the manual, but has appeared here many times, without logical
explanation.

Wes   N7WS

On 1/16/2022 6:52 AM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

I have not heard this either. Is this in the manual? 5 watts would be a
tough output to avoid if you enjoy QRP.

John KK9A

KE8G wrote:

Hmm, I've never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn't be run.

73 de KE8G - Jim


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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Richard Ferch]

You may or may not consider this logical, but: The description of the
transmitter gain calibration procedure in the manual does not call up any
special calibration menu. It just says transmit a carrier at exactly 5.0
watts or exactly 50 watts. Apparently the firmware uses these power level
settings as a trigger to do a gain calibration.

Not wanting to do unexpected gain calibrations while operating, I have
always set my power to 4.9 watts when I want to operate QRP, and to 49
watts if I want to operate at 50 watts.

I am fairly sure I saw a post here by one of the elecraft techs about this
not so very long ago.

73,
Rich VE3KI


N7WS wrote:

It is not in the manual, but has appeared here many times, without logical
explanation.

Wes   N7WS

On 1/16/2022 6:52 AM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> I have not heard this either. Is this in the manual? 5 watts would be a
> tough output to avoid if you enjoy QRP.
>
> John KK9A
>
> KE8G wrote:
>
> Hmm, I've never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn't be run.
>
> 73 de KE8G - Jim
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Dave (NK7Z)]

Jim,

Thank you for the reference to the post confirming the 5/50 watt issue!

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 1/16/22 06:27, Jim McCook wrote:

FYI once again.  You can confirm this with Elecraft support.  Jim

https://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg252041.html
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Jim McCook]

FYI once again.  You can confirm this with Elecraft support.  Jim

https://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg252041.html
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Mike Markowski]

I will dangerously rely on memory.  I recall a discussion, no doubt one 
of many similar, simply describing the amp as most efficient at full 
power, not that any output power level should be avoided.  After all, 
every amp is designed around some quiescent current.


73,

Mike ab3ap

On 1/16/22 9:06 AM, Wes wrote:
It is not in the manual, but has appeared here many times, without 
logical explanation.


Wes  N7WS

On 1/16/2022 6:52 AM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

I have not heard this either. Is this in the manual? 5 watts would be a
tough output to avoid if you enjoy QRP.

John KK9A

KE8G wrote:

Hmm, I've never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn't be run.

73 de KE8G - Jim 

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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Wes]

It is not in the manual, but has appeared here many times, without logical 
explanation.


Wes  N7WS

On 1/16/2022 6:52 AM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

I have not heard this either. Is this in the manual? 5 watts would be a
tough output to avoid if you enjoy QRP.

John KK9A

KE8G wrote:

Hmm, I've never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn't be run.

73 de KE8G - Jim



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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Dave (NK7Z)]

See:

https://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2022-January/288276.html

for a reference to the original post, which I can not locate...

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 1/16/22 05:02, Dave (NK7Z) wrote:

Hopefully someone remembers the thread title, I don't.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 1/16/22 04:52, KE8G wrote:

Hmm, I’ve never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn’t be run.

73 de KE8G - Jim


On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 18:54 Dave (NK7Z) > wrote:


    If I remember correctly, 5 watts is a power level to avoid...  As 
is 50

    Watts.  I believe it messes with the TX calibration.

    73, and thanks,
    Dave (NK7Z)
    https://www.nk7z.net 
    ARRL Volunteer Examiner
    ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
    ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

    On 1/15/22 14:39, KE8G wrote:
 > Back the power off below the 12 watts, and see if you get 
anything.

 >
 > Same thing had happened to me today, so running K3s at 5 watts,
    and the
 > Kpa500 is putting out 80-90wstts
 >
 > 73 de KE8G - Jim
 >
 > On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 13:04 Ronnie Hull mailto:w5...@comcast.net>> wrote:
 >
 >> I had the exact same problem! It’s been Elecraft for a few
    months now.
 >> Hopefully I will get it back before summer
 >> W5SUM
 >>
 >> Sent from my iPhone
 >>
 >>> On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 AM, Linda M mailto:wa6...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >>>
 >>> 
 >>> __
 >>> Elecraft mailing list
 >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
    
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 >>
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[john]

I have not heard this either. Is this in the manual? 5 watts would be a
tough output to avoid if you enjoy QRP.  

John KK9A

KE8G wrote:

Hmm, I've never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn't be run.

73 de KE8G - Jim

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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Dave (NK7Z)]

Hopefully someone remembers the thread title, I don't.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 1/16/22 04:52, KE8G wrote:

Hmm, I’ve never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn’t be run.

73 de KE8G - Jim


On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 18:54 Dave (NK7Z) > wrote:


If I remember correctly, 5 watts is a power level to avoid...  As is 50
Watts.  I believe it messes with the TX calibration.

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net 
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 1/15/22 14:39, KE8G wrote:
 > Back the power off below the 12 watts, and see if you get anything.
 >
 > Same thing had happened to me today, so running K3s at 5 watts,
and the
 > Kpa500 is putting out 80-90wstts
 >
 > 73 de KE8G - Jim
 >
 > On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 13:04 Ronnie Hull mailto:w5...@comcast.net>> wrote:
 >
 >> I had the exact same problem! It’s been Elecraft for a few
months now.
 >> Hopefully I will get it back before summer
 >> W5SUM
 >>
 >> Sent from my iPhone
 >>
 >>> On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 AM, Linda M mailto:wa6...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >>>
 >>> 
 >>> __
 >>> Elecraft mailing list
 >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

 >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

 >>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

 >>>
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http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
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 >>
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[KE8G]

Hmm, I’ve never heard that 5 or 50 watts of power shouldn’t be run.

73 de KE8G - Jim


On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 18:54 Dave (NK7Z)  wrote:

> If I remember correctly, 5 watts is a power level to avoid...  As is 50
> Watts.  I believe it messes with the TX calibration.
>
> 73, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)
> https://www.nk7z.net
> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>
> On 1/15/22 14:39, KE8G wrote:
> > Back the power off below the 12 watts, and see if you get anything.
> >
> > Same thing had happened to me today, so running K3s at 5 watts, and the
> > Kpa500 is putting out 80-90wstts
> >
> > 73 de KE8G - Jim
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 13:04 Ronnie Hull  wrote:
> >
> >> I had the exact same problem! It’s been Elecraft for a few months now.
> >> Hopefully I will get it back before summer
> >> W5SUM
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 AM, Linda M  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Dave (NK7Z)]

If I remember correctly, 5 watts is a power level to avoid...  As is 50 
Watts.  I believe it messes with the TX calibration.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 1/15/22 14:39, KE8G wrote:

Back the power off below the 12 watts, and see if you get anything.

Same thing had happened to me today, so running K3s at 5 watts, and the
Kpa500 is putting out 80-90wstts

73 de KE8G - Jim

On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 13:04 Ronnie Hull  wrote:


I had the exact same problem! It’s been Elecraft for a few months now.
Hopefully I will get it back before summer
W5SUM

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 AM, Linda M  wrote:


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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[KE8G]

Back the power off below the 12 watts, and see if you get anything.

Same thing had happened to me today, so running K3s at 5 watts, and the
Kpa500 is putting out 80-90wstts

73 de KE8G - Jim

On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 13:04 Ronnie Hull  wrote:

> I had the exact same problem! It’s been Elecraft for a few months now.
> Hopefully I will get it back before summer
> W5SUM
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 AM, Linda M  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
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> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to w5...@comcast.net
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Ronnie Hull]

I had the exact same problem! It’s been Elecraft for a few months now. 
Hopefully I will get it back before summer 
W5SUM

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 15, 2022, at 11:22 AM, Linda M  wrote:
> 
> 
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Linda M]

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Re: [Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[Dave]

Hi,

If it were me, I would bypass everything and feed the antenna directly 
to the K3.  If things work after that step, it is not the K3.


Again, if it were me, I would begin adding things back, one at a time, 
until the failure returns.  At that point, I would conclude that the 
last device added was failed, and look there.


If it is the K3, I would then come back from my last backup of the 
settings and see if that fixes things...


If that fails to bring the K3 back, I would re-post my question, with 
all the test info I have gathered above.


I would call support, but the last time I called, I got a message, not a 
person.


73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 1/15/22 08:15, rikoski wrote:

I have a K3, P3, KAT500 and KPA500. I was listening in the middle of a QSO and 
lost signal.

I tested my antenna with a back up transceiver and the antenna and coax are 
good.

The P3 still shows signals but only hiss comes out of the K3’s speaker.

Keying the k3 by pressing the attached foot pedal turns on the red Tx light on 
the K3 but the display on the KPA500 shows an asterisk to the left of the power 
out reading of zero on its display.

No signal goes to the antenna and nothing besides hiss comes out of the speaker.

What should I do next?

Thanks. W9ZD
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[Elecraft] K Line: Signal loss in a QSO

[rikoski]

I have a K3, P3, KAT500 and KPA500. I was listening in the middle of a QSO and 
lost signal.

I tested my antenna with a back up transceiver and the antenna and coax are 
good. 

The P3 still shows signals but only hiss comes out of the K3’s speaker.

Keying the k3 by pressing the attached foot pedal turns on the red Tx light on 
the K3 but the display on the KPA500 shows an asterisk to the left of the power 
out reading of zero on its display. 

No signal goes to the antenna and nothing besides hiss comes out of the speaker.

What should I do next? 

Thanks. W9ZD
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