Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
aa From: Richard Fjeld rpfj...@embarqmail.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, 23 December 2014, 6:30 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power Well, more good information. Maybe I stand corrected. It's been nearly 4 years since I have read the manual, and my memory may have read more into the statements than it should have. I refer to page 13, right hand column, halfway down, entitled POWER. There is a note that reads To ensure correct save of operating parameters, turn the K3 off /before/ turning the power supply off. When I read that, I thought about the short duration power failures we experience. Page 44 touches on updating the nonvolatile memory correctly before shut-down either by the power switch, or in this case a 'PS0;' command via the RS232 interface. As you saw, there was a reply from a contester who had several power outages with multiple K3's without any troubles. That was good to learn of. I thought If I only use the battery for backup to shutdown, there should be a minimum of charging. I have been using a UPS on the AC supply, but I trust a float battery I can test on the DC. I may abandon the whole idea and stay with the UPS. Sometimes rejection is a good thing. Note: As I learn more about this radio, I appreciate the thought that went into it's design. Thanks for the posts, and the bandwidth. Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to q.g.coll...@btinternet.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Oops - sorry about the previous posting belowmy cat Henry was helping me with my e-mails. Anyway, a belated Happy Christmas and best wishes for 2015 to all readers of this most interesting list. 73, Quin G3WRR From: QUENTIN COLLIER q.g.coll...@btinternet.com To: Richard Fjeld rpfj...@embarqmail.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, 26 December 2014, 9:07 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power aa From: Richard Fjeld rpfj...@embarqmail.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, 23 December 2014, 6:30 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power Well, more good information. Maybe I stand corrected. It's been nearly 4 years since I have read the manual, and my memory may have read more into the statements than it should have. I refer to page 13, right hand column, halfway down, entitled POWER. There is a note that reads To ensure correct save of operating parameters, turn the K3 off /before/ turning the power supply off. When I read that, I thought about the short duration power failures we experience. Page 44 touches on updating the nonvolatile memory correctly before shut-down either by the power switch, or in this case a 'PS0;' command via the RS232 interface. As you saw, there was a reply from a contester who had several power outages with multiple K3's without any troubles. That was good to learn of. I thought If I only use the battery for backup to shutdown, there should be a minimum of charging. I have been using a UPS on the AC supply, but I trust a float battery I can test on the DC. I may abandon the whole idea and stay with the UPS. Sometimes rejection is a good thing. Note: As I learn more about this radio, I appreciate the thought that went into it's design. Thanks for the posts, and the bandwidth. Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to q.g.coll...@btinternet.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to q.g.coll...@btinternet.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power, battery supplies
Batteries are sensitive to their electrolyte temperature, some more than others. If it is tempting to put batteries outside the shack for any reason, take care of the temperature extremes they may experience in terms of charge voltage etc. Inside a shack that is nice for us is also good for the battery. See: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_at_high_and_low_temperatures 73 David G3UNA Concerns about outgassing notwithstanding, I've never used anything more than the voltage regulator on the power supply to limit the charge, and I've always used ordinary deep cycle batteries. The key is to limit that voltage to what the battery expects, and to limit the charging current to what the battery will take as a trickle once it's reached full charge. Those are not difficult to do if you simply monitor battery voltage and charge current. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Interesting presentation and I certainly understand the principal of supply voltage vs IMD. There are some transmitters that I would not run at 12vsome are worse than others. Im looking specifically at K3 performance as this is what I have, and as Don points out it is one of if not the cleanest out there and as pointed out droping my power by 30% would have little effect at the receiving end but would certainly reduce IMD and may get me an hour more operating time to boot. What transmitter you were using on page 43Seems to be an ICOM 7600 for most samples and what were the actual high, nominal, and low voltages. just a guess would be the rigs spec High, 13.8, and spec minimum. Also I wonder if I could get the authors permission to use this in a presentation at a club meeting. David Moes dm...@nexicom.net VE3DVY, VE3SD On 12/23/2014 02:24, Jim Brown wrote: On Mon,12/22/2014 2:50 PM, david Moes wrote: I'm just curios is there any real test data available showing what IMD may be present at various supply voltages? The link below is for a presentation that K6XX and I did to NCCC a year or so ago. See slide #42 for some measurements that Bob did. http://k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf The measurements I posted a day or two ago were done at supply voltages between about 12.5V and 12.9V. It's hard to find the IMD -- there's some, but it's WAY down. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to dm...@nexicom.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
My setup is charging a 33 AH AGM battery via a West Mountain Radio PowerGate PG40S that feeds a distribution panel for the K3, P3 and other 12v accessories. The power supply input to the PowerGate is a PowerWerx SPS-30DM. The system can handle short power outages and keeps the battery correctly charged. I only turn the P/S on when using the rigs unless the PowerGate indicates a need for 'bulk' charging. When it goes to float, I turn the P/S off. I really see this as an uninterruptible P/S protection for the station. It was also helpful when I was chasing down an interference signal I was seeing by eliminating any source in the house (cut the AC mains and ran the K3/P3 form the battery.) 73 ..mike AI6II -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-13-8-VDC-power-tp7596240p7596302.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
On Tue,12/23/2014 4:54 AM, david Moes wrote: Interesting presentation and I certainly understand the principal of supply voltage vs IMD. There are some transmitters that I would not run at 12vsome are worse than others. Im looking specifically at K3 performance as this is what I have, and as Don points out it is one of if not the cleanest out there and as pointed out droping my power by 30% would have little effect at the receiving end but would certainly reduce IMD and may get me an hour more operating time to boot. What transmitter you were using on page 43 I don't know -- that part of the program was prepared by K6XX. You can identify his measurement slides by their screen display, which were made using a Rigol Spectrum Analyzer. My measurements were those done using the P3, looking at signals on the air. Seems to be an ICOM 7600 for most samples and what were the actual high, nominal, and low voltages. just a guess would be the rigs spec High, 13.8, and spec minimum. Also I wonder if I could get the authors permission to use this in a presentation at a club meeting. Sorry, no, because much of the content of the presentation depends on Bob's oral talk, and it was not recorded. You are, however, welcome to pass around the link. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
It IS possible to send the K3 off to never-never land by removing the 12 volt input before shutting the radio off with the power switch. I've had it happen whilst mucking around behind my desk and accidentally pulling out the Anderson power-pole connector. If you've saved the settings using the K3 utility, you can reset everything using the procedure on page 63 of the K3 manual. NOTE: This did not work with my rotor control plugged into the ACC socket! If you didn't save the parameters, you will have to manually reset everything! SAVE! 73, Roger On 12/23/2014 1:30 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Well, more good information. Maybe I stand corrected. It's been nearly 4 years since I have read the manual, and my memory may have read more into the statements than it should have. I refer to page 13, right hand column, halfway down, entitled POWER. There is a note that reads To ensure correct save of operating parameters, turn the K3 off /before/ turning the power supply off. When I read that, I thought about the short duration power failures we experience. __ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Thanks Roger, that information is rewarding. Imagine what would happen if a power outage occurs during a firmware upload. The odds are slim, but my middle name is 'Murphy'. I want a good battery in my laptop as well. It has to finish the upload. Dick, n0ce On 12/23/2014 10:09 AM, Roger D Johnson wrote: It IS possible to send the K3 off to never-never land by removing the 12 volt input before shutting the radio off with the power switch. I've had it happen whilst mucking around behind my desk and accidentally pulling out the Anderson power-pole connector. If you've saved the settings using the K3 utility, you can reset everything using the procedure on page 63 of the K3 manual. NOTE: This did not work with my rotor control plugged into the ACC socket! If you didn't save the parameters, you will have to manually reset everything! SAVE! 73, Roger __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
I have noted that if you remove power it does not give the processor time to save the last frequency and other settings that it automatically saves (operating conditions). I had this happen with a defective power supply and a few times when the power was automatically removed. My dog likes to sleep under the operating desk. Lately he has been picking on my cable modem and router. Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman K5EWJ Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart From: Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power It IS possible to send the K3 off to never-never land by removing the 12 volt input before shutting the radio off with the power switch. I've had it happen whilst mucking around behind my desk and accidentally pulling out the Anderson power-pole connector. If you've saved the settings using the K3 utility, you can reset everything using the procedure on page 63 of the K3 manual. NOTE: This did not work with my rotor control plugged into the ACC socket! If you didn't save the parameters, you will have to manually reset everything! SAVE! 73, Roger On 12/23/2014 1:30 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Well, more good information. Maybe I stand corrected. It's been nearly 4 years since I have read the manual, and my memory may have read more into the statements than it should have. I refer to page 13, right hand column, halfway down, entitled POWER. There is a note that reads To ensure correct save of operating parameters, turn the K3 off /before/ turning the power supply off. When I read that, I thought about the short duration power failures we experience. __ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wrco...@yahoo.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Hi to the group I have a K3 and a KX3 with PX3 and PA100. I always keep an up to date config file on my computer. If I get an out of sequence power off I always restore the config using the Elecraft utility. If I load new firmware I also restore the good config. If I go to field day I make sure there is a good config file for each operator. This allows each operator to have their favorite settings and when I get home I can eliminate any unwanted changes by reloading my known good config file. I use a battery for camping and field day but even there a connector can come unplugged and cause trouble to the config file. Troubles in the config file do not always show up right away as any memory spot can be damaged. The config file can be spoiled by a fat finger when changing setting in the rig menu. It can also be spoiled when having trouble reloading firmware. My recommendation is to keep the config file clean and ready. Battery backup may be used for other reasons such as finishing a QSO but it should not be used just to prevent config file problems. Ken W0CZ w0cz at i29 dot net Sent from my iPad Well, more good information. Maybe I stand corrected. It's been nearly 4 years since I have read the manual, and my memory may have read more into the statements than it should have. I refer to page 13, right hand column, halfway down, entitled POWER. There is a note that reads To ensure correct save of operating parameters, turn the K3 off /before/ turning the power supply off. When I read that, I thought about the short duration power failures we experience. I thought If I only use the battery for backup to shutdown, there should be a minimum of charging. I have been using a UPS on the AC supply, but I trust a float battery I can test on the DC. I may abandon the whole idea and stay with the UPS. Sometimes rejection is a good thing. Note: As I learn more about this radio, I appreciate the thought that went into it's design. Thanks for the posts, and the bandwidth. Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
RV's all contain power supplies that are designed to use 120 volts from either generator or park power, to provide fifty-sixty-ish DC amperage to the 12 volt (13.8) rails and house batteries around the RV. RV's run a LOT of stuff on 13.8: fridge controls, Air Cond. controls, fans, furnace, lights, alarms, water pump, etc. The difference between these power supplies and an automotive changer, is that the RV supplies are designed to work with a deep cycle battery (often a pair of 6V T105's in series) floating on the 12 volt rail, and have the 14.4 v bulk charge, 13.6 v maintenance or absorbtion charge and 13.2 float settings logic built in. The power supplies are also designed to provide up to charger max current rating to the 12 volt rail once battery(s) are charged. Typical power supply size for a pair of T105's is 55 or 65 amps, which will nicely power a station with a pair of K3's plus a lot of 12v accessories. T105's are more commonly known as pro golf cart batteries, with six in series a typical battery array in a golf cart. The power supply has to match the house batteries' rated max sustained charge current. When house 12v draw plus battery charge current exceeds the rated current, the power supply voltage drops to limit the current at the rated amperage. This is what I have in my RV. Camping World prices for these units can be beaten on the internet. http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/wf-9800-series-converter-charger-55-amp/58324 My RV is a self-contained field day station that can put everything on the 12 volt rail.The generator or park power runs the microwave, the air conditioning and the aforementioned RV 12v supply. The T105 house batteries could easily handle a 2 x QRP entry for the 24 hours. Using this kind of power supply at home to run a battery float system is very easy, once the venting and safe location of batteries issue is settled. The batteries and power supply can be quite a distance from the shack if single aught copper is used to bus the current from battery to shack and distribution/fuse device. 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
On Sun,12/21/2014 11:44 PM, Jim Brown wrote: I run a contesting station with two K3s driving power amps with a 10A supply keeping the battery charged during the winter, and solar panels doing it during the summer. Clarification: For the 2-radio contesting system, I use two 6V 210AH Golf Cart Batteries in series. For a single radio setup, I used a single 12V battery of the biggest that Costco sells, about 80 AH. Solar is useless for me during the winter because I'm surrounded by VERY tall redwoods, whose shadows limit my sunlight at panels to a few hours per day during the winter and 6 hours during the summer. Those with more hospitable light exposure may be able to make greater use or szolar power. :) I run all the 12V gear from this system -- K3, P3, preamps for Beverages, switching for antennas, etc. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
On Dec 22, 2014, at 2:31 AM, Richard Fjeld rpfj...@embarqmail.com wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce In almost every case possible. Uninterrupted communications is a very important concept IMHO. A trick (or maybe not) that I have recently used to address the charging issue, is to use a ‘Solar Charge Controller’, of the appropriate amperage rating, of course. These devices have a solar input (suitable for a Linear type power supply. Not quite sure how it would behave connected to a switcher), a Battery Interconnect, and Load out. Many devices include charging control circuits that you can match to your batteries fairly well, and a Low Voltage Disconnect (LVD) to keep your batteries from over discharging. I have this setup on my K3 and it works great. I have the K3’s Low Voltage warning set to .3v above LVD cut-out (on the charge controller). This lets me know when the batteries are close to the bottom. This is a great feature that helps you with not destroying your batteries. Walter K3WCA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
There are some cautions in floating a battery with a mains power supply. For example, the ProAudio Engineering PAE-Kx33 4A switching power supply I am using with my KX3 specifically says not to use the power supply for directly charging batteries, and voids the warranty if you do. I had a prototype battery charge controller I was designing let the magic smoke out when the input power dropped and the battery sent current backwards through the circuit. The tantalum cap was actually in flame. (A diode was part of the fix.) Like Jim, I use a solar charge controller http://www.cirkits.com/scc3/ to charge the batteries which run my K3 station. 73 Bill AE6JV On 12/22/14 at 11:31 PM, rpfj...@embarqmail.com (Richard Fjeld) wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce --- Bill Frantz| I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the 408-356-8506 | intelligence. There's a knob called brightness, but www.pwpconsult.com | it doesn't work. -- Gallagher __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com writes: I run a contesting station with two K3s driving power amps with a 10A supply keeping the battery charged during the winter, and solar panels doing it during the summer. What do you do about the voltage being 12.5ish instead of 13.8? Run the K3s at reduced power (because of the amps you are doing anyway)? Don't worry about extra IMD? Use a DC-DC converter to get 13.8V? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
The SCC3 is in use here too. The basic 20 Amp unit can be scaled up to higher rated amperage by adding additional FETs. The instructions for this are included. 73, matt W6NIA On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:49:49 -0800, you wrote: There are some cautions in floating a battery with a mains power supply. For example, the ProAudio Engineering PAE-Kx33 4A switching power supply I am using with my KX3 specifically says not to use the power supply for directly charging batteries, and voids the warranty if you do. I had a prototype battery charge controller I was designing let the magic smoke out when the input power dropped and the battery sent current backwards through the circuit. The tantalum cap was actually in flame. (A diode was part of the fix.) Like Jim, I use a solar charge controller http://www.cirkits.com/scc3/ to charge the batteries which run my K3 station. 73 Bill AE6JV On 12/22/14 at 11:31 PM, rpfj...@embarqmail.com (Richard Fjeld) wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce --- Bill Frantz| I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the 408-356-8506 | intelligence. There's a knob called brightness, but www.pwpconsult.com | it doesn't work. -- Gallagher __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to mzil...@roadrunner.com Matt Zilmer, W6NIA -- Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. -A. Lincoln __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
On Mon,12/22/2014 7:05 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com writes: I run a contesting station with two K3s driving power amps with a 10A supply keeping the battery charged during the winter, and solar panels doing it during the summer. What do you do about the voltage being 12.5ish instead of 13.8? Run the K3s at reduced power (because of the amps you are doing anyway)? Don't worry about extra IMD? Use a DC-DC converter to get 13.8V? Most of my contesting is done either at legal limit, with the K3s driving an amp or at QRP. For NAQP, of course, i run 100W. Even at 100W and 12.5V the K3 is pretty clean, and at the 40-50W level it takes to drive my Ten Tec Titans, even cleaner. The measurements in the link below were taken with my usual power setup. k9yc.com/P3_SpectrumMeasurements.pdf Someone mentioned using a solar charge controller. I'm using a GV MPPT charge controller between my solar panels and the battery. It's RF quiet. Most charge controllers make RF noise. GV makes several models for different battery types, voltages, and current ratings. They are available here. The company also seems to be a good place to buy Li batteries. http://www.batteryspace.com/140w-10a-solar-charge-controller-with-mppt-for-lithium-batteries.aspx 73, Jim K9YC 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Wow, thanks to all for the greatly informative answers. I gleaned many good ideas from them. This is my concern; I am interested in protecting my K3 from damage by not being shut down properly should a power interruption occur while the K3 is operating. For this design, I'm thinking about a worst case scenario; in transmit mode at 100 watts/20 amps, plus accessories on. I am concerned about Hydrogen gas while charging a lead-acid battery here in the furnace room. Since I don't need to operate by battery power, I'd like to know your thoughts about if a Gel-Cel battery of a 9 amp variety would handle the 20 amp load until I could go to receive mode and properly shut down? I haven't had any experience drawing that much amperage from a gel-cel momentarily. I don't know if the load voltage would be adequate to keep the K3 alive. I'd need to test it using an older style radio. I'm hoping someone has had experience related to this. Thanks in advance for comments, Dick, n0ce On 12/22/2014 1:31 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Dick, Yes, hydrogen outgassing is a potential problem, and the area containing a normal lead-acid battery should not only be protected from sparks and ignition sources, but should also be vented to the outside. I would suggest that you look at a larger gel cell or an AGM battery. If you use a normal lead acid deep cycle battery, you could enclose it in a tight battery box (often used in RVs) which has a vent hose that you could route outside. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2014 2:51 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Wow, thanks to all for the greatly informative answers. I gleaned many good ideas from them. This is my concern; I am interested in protecting my K3 from damage by not being shut down properly should a power interruption occur while the K3 is operating. For this design, I'm thinking about a worst case scenario; in transmit mode at 100 watts/20 amps, plus accessories on. I am concerned about Hydrogen gas while charging a lead-acid battery here in the furnace room. Since I don't need to operate by battery power, I'd like to know your thoughts about if a Gel-Cel battery of a 9 amp variety would handle the 20 amp load until I could go to receive mode and properly shut down? I haven't had any experience drawing that much amperage from a gel-cel momentarily. I don't know if the load voltage would be adequate to keep the K3 alive. I'd need to test it using an older style radio. I'm hoping someone has had experience related to this. Thanks in advance for comments, Dick, n0ce On 12/22/2014 1:31 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w3...@embarqmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
On Mon,12/22/2014 11:51 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: This is my concern; I am interested in protecting my K3 from damage by not being shut down properly should a power interruption occur while the K3 is operating. For this design, I'm thinking about a worst case scenario; in transmit mode at 100 watts/20 amps, plus accessories on. You are overly concerned, but having battery backup is a good thing. Concerns about outgassing notwithstanding, I've never used anything more than the voltage regulator on the power supply to limit the charge, and I've always used ordinary deep cycle batteries. The key is to limit that voltage to what the battery expects, and to limit the charging current to what the battery will take as a trickle once it's reached full charge. Those are not difficult to do if you simply monitor battery voltage and charge current. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Another problem is that outgasing gases are corrosive and can damage electronics especially contacts, relays, connectors, pots and the like. Nick N1KMP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Dick: Unless you are looking for something to do, I also suggest you are over concerned. During the recent CQWW CW on the island of St. Croix, we had 3 K3s all driving amps. We probably had 3 or 4 outages without incident. Similarly, as a single op on the island of Montserrat during the last ARRL SSB, I had a K3 barefoot. Again, something like 3 or 4 power outages during the contest. No problems. Once that 12 volts into the K3 reaches its lower limit, the radio's off. Shutting down properly during a power interruption might be a different, and more difficult requirement, than just batter backup. 73 charlie, k1xx On 12/22/2014 2:51 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Wow, thanks to all for the greatly informative answers. I gleaned many good ideas from them. This is my concern; I am interested in protecting my K3 from damage by not being shut down properly should a power interruption occur while the K3 is operating. For this design, I'm thinking about a worst case scenario; in transmit mode at 100 watts/20 amps, plus accessories on. I am concerned about Hydrogen gas while charging a lead-acid battery here in the furnace room. Since I don't need to operate by battery power, I'd like to know your thoughts about if a Gel-Cel battery of a 9 amp variety would handle the 20 amp load until I could go to receive mode and properly shut down? I haven't had any experience drawing that much amperage from a gel-cel momentarily. I don't know if the load voltage would be adequate to keep the K3 alive. I'd need to test it using an older style radio. I'm hoping someone has had experience related to this. Thanks in advance for comments, Dick, n0ce On 12/22/2014 1:31 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k...@k1xx.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
I use one of these power supplies with a battery backup module installed (Model: SEC-1223BBM). I have a deep cycle battery attached to it.http://www.samlexamerica.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=516The hot-switches to battery is very nice when power fails. Also if you happen to draw more than 25A it uses the battery for the difference from up to 35A. It charges the battery at 5A with normal power.Tom - wa4ta Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:51:52 -0600 From: rpfj...@embarqmail.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power Wow, thanks to all for the greatly informative answers. I gleaned many good ideas from them. This is my concern; I am interested in protecting my K3 from damage by not being shut down properly should a power interruption occur while the K3 is operating. For this design, I'm thinking about a worst case scenario; in transmit mode at 100 watts/20 amps, plus accessories on. I am concerned about Hydrogen gas while charging a lead-acid battery here in the furnace room. Since I don't need to operate by battery power, I'd like to know your thoughts about if a Gel-Cel battery of a 9 amp variety would handle the 20 amp load until I could go to receive mode and properly shut down? I haven't had any experience drawing that much amperage from a gel-cel momentarily. I don't know if the load voltage would be adequate to keep the K3 alive. I'd need to test it using an older style radio. I'm hoping someone has had experience related to this. Thanks in advance for comments, Dick, n0ce On 12/22/2014 1:31 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wa...@hotmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Dick: A few more notes. Outgassing is not a normal occurrence of lead acid batteries. It occurs when there is substantial overcharge. That is why you always use a regulator so outgassing doesn't occur. Second SLA stands for sealed lead acid. These batteries are partially sealed to prevent outgassing. They do have blowout plugs to prevent explosions. Finally there are battery monitors available at reasonable cost. They will sound an alarm if your battery voltage is too high or too low thereby giving warning that something is not right. I also attach a 12vdc LED light strip to my power alarm. That way when the house lights go out I can still see the controls to shut things down if need be. 73, Fred, AE6QL -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 12:06 PM To: Richard Fjeld; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power Dick, Yes, hydrogen outgassing is a potential problem, and the area containing a normal lead-acid battery should not only be protected from sparks and ignition sources, but should also be vented to the outside. I would suggest that you look at a larger gel cell or an AGM battery. If you use a normal lead acid deep cycle battery, you could enclose it in a tight battery box (often used in RVs) which has a vent hose that you could route outside. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2014 2:51 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Wow, thanks to all for the greatly informative answers. I gleaned many good ideas from them. This is my concern; I am interested in protecting my K3 from damage by not being shut down properly should a power interruption occur while the K3 is operating. For this design, I'm thinking about a worst case scenario; in transmit mode at 100 watts/20 amps, plus accessories on. I am concerned about Hydrogen gas while charging a lead-acid battery here in the furnace room. Since I don't need to operate by battery power, I'd like to know your thoughts about if a Gel-Cel battery of a 9 amp variety would handle the 20 amp load until I could go to receive mode and properly shut down? I haven't had any experience drawing that much amperage from a gel-cel momentarily. I don't know if the load voltage would be adequate to keep the K3 alive. I'd need to test it using an older style radio. I'm hoping someone has had experience related to this. Thanks in advance for comments, Dick, n0ce On 12/22/2014 1:31 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w3...@embarqmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to fptowns...@earthlink.net - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8787 - Release Date: 12/22/14 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
I'm just curios is there any real test data available showing what IMD may be present at various supply voltages? I have heard many comments on the reflector over the years saying to keep the voltage high one member saying to keep it at 15V.The specs say 13.8 V nominal during TX. (11 V min, 15 V max) I would think that the transmit signal should be fairly clean within this range. At home its on a regulated supply 13.8 so NP but at the cottage where there is no utility power its on a battery with 6 and 10ga wiring all using solar charge. At night I will see voltages drop to about 12V after operating with lighting from the same battery for a while usually about 1:00 am in a contest. this is when I go off the air and to bed, as this is typically about when the battery reaches a 40-50% charge and I don't like to go below this. is operating approaching 12 volts (transmit) really an issue? David Moes President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club. dm...@nexicom.net VE3DVY, VE3SD On 12/22/2014 11:31, Jim Brown wrote: On Mon,12/22/2014 7:05 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com writes: I run a contesting station with two K3s driving power amps with a 10A supply keeping the battery charged during the winter, and solar panels doing it during the summer. What do you do about the voltage being 12.5ish instead of 13.8? Run the K3s at reduced power (because of the amps you are doing anyway)? Don't worry about extra IMD? Use a DC-DC converter to get 13.8V? Most of my contesting is done either at legal limit, with the K3s driving an amp or at QRP. For NAQP, of course, i run 100W. Even at 100W and 12.5V the K3 is pretty clean, and at the 40-50W level it takes to drive my Ten Tec Titans, even cleaner. The measurements in the link below were taken with my usual power setup. k9yc.com/P3_SpectrumMeasurements.pdf Someone mentioned using a solar charge controller. I'm using a GV MPPT charge controller between my solar panels and the battery. It's RF quiet. Most charge controllers make RF noise. GV makes several models for different battery types, voltages, and current ratings. They are available here. The company also seems to be a good place to buy Li batteries. http://www.batteryspace.com/140w-10a-solar-charge-controller-with-mppt-for-lithium-batteries.aspx 73, Jim K9YC 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to dm...@nexicom.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
AGM batteries can be air freighted...nuff said on safety. Gary Vk1ZZ K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3. On 23/12/2014 7:29 AM, tom armour wa...@hotmail.com wrote: I use one of these power supplies with a battery backup module installed (Model: SEC-1223BBM). I have a deep cycle battery attached to it. http://www.samlexamerica.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=516The hot-switches to battery is very nice when power fails. Also if you happen to draw more than 25A it uses the battery for the difference from up to 35A. It charges the battery at 5A with normal power.Tom - wa4ta Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:51:52 -0600 From: rpfj...@embarqmail.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power Wow, thanks to all for the greatly informative answers. I gleaned many good ideas from them. This is my concern; I am interested in protecting my K3 from damage by not being shut down properly should a power interruption occur while the K3 is operating. For this design, I'm thinking about a worst case scenario; in transmit mode at 100 watts/20 amps, plus accessories on. I am concerned about Hydrogen gas while charging a lead-acid battery here in the furnace room. Since I don't need to operate by battery power, I'd like to know your thoughts about if a Gel-Cel battery of a 9 amp variety would handle the 20 amp load until I could go to receive mode and properly shut down? I haven't had any experience drawing that much amperage from a gel-cel momentarily. I don't know if the load voltage would be adequate to keep the K3 alive. I'd need to test it using an older style radio. I'm hoping someone has had experience related to this. Thanks in advance for comments, Dick, n0ce On 12/22/2014 1:31 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wa...@hotmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to vk1zzg...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
David, I think the answer to your question is a matter of degree. I do not have any specific test data on the IMD increase as the DC voltage is reduced, but it is a fact that the IMD with 'nominal 12 volt' transceivers will worsen as the voltage drops. The fact that the K3 IMD is better than most other transceivers also says that the IMD as the voltage goes down is better on the K3 than others. If you are concerned about it, I suggest you reduce the power to something like 75 or 80 watts when your power source voltage decreases. The difference between that power and 100 watts is likely not to be noticed by the receiving stations. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/22/2014 5:50 PM, david Moes wrote: I'm just curios is there any real test data available showing what IMD may be present at various supply voltages? I have heard many comments on the reflector over the years saying to keep the voltage high one member saying to keep it at 15V.The specs say 13.8 V nominal during TX. (11 V min, 15 V max) I would think that the transmit signal should be fairly clean within this range. At home its on a regulated supply 13.8 so NP but at the cottage where there is no utility power its on a battery with 6 and 10ga wiring all using solar charge. At night I will see voltages drop to about 12V after operating with lighting from the same battery for a while usually about 1:00 am in a contest. this is when I go off the air and to bed, as this is typically about when the battery reaches a 40-50% charge and I don't like to go below this. is operating approaching 12 volts (transmit) really an issue? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Well, more good information. Maybe I stand corrected. It's been nearly 4 years since I have read the manual, and my memory may have read more into the statements than it should have. I refer to page 13, right hand column, halfway down, entitled POWER. There is a note that reads To ensure correct save of operating parameters, turn the K3 off /before/ turning the power supply off. When I read that, I thought about the short duration power failures we experience. Page 44 touches on updating the nonvolatile memory correctly before shut-down either by the power switch, or in this case a 'PS0;' command via the RS232 interface. As you saw, there was a reply from a contester who had several power outages with multiple K3's without any troubles. That was good to learn of. I thought If I only use the battery for backup to shutdown, there should be a minimum of charging. I have been using a UPS on the AC supply, but I trust a float battery I can test on the DC. I may abandon the whole idea and stay with the UPS. Sometimes rejection is a good thing. Note: As I learn more about this radio, I appreciate the thought that went into it's design. Thanks for the posts, and the bandwidth. Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
On Mon,12/22/2014 2:50 PM, david Moes wrote: I'm just curios is there any real test data available showing what IMD may be present at various supply voltages? The link below is for a presentation that K6XX and I did to NCCC a year or so ago. See slide #42 for some measurements that Bob did. http://k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf The measurements I posted a day or two ago were done at supply voltages between about 12.5V and 12.9V. It's hard to find the IMD -- there's some, but it's WAY down. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Dick, n0ce __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 13.8 VDC power
On Sun,12/21/2014 11:31 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Is anyone floating a battery across their power distribution? Sure. I've done it for ten years. A fundamental requirement is a regulated supply set to a voltage that is matched to the battery's desired charging or float voltage. You want to keep the battery charged while not overcharging it. I run a contesting station with two K3s driving power amps with a 10A supply keeping the battery charged during the winter, and solar panels doing it during the summer. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
