Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Thanks, Joe, for the clear explanation. It seems that I will be able to use the diversity mode when running and the locked dual RX mode in SP to some advantage. And the unlocked dual RX mode for SO2V. I'll know lots more, of course, after the contest. I'll experiment with it some first to get more familiar with the options available. At least I'll have lots to play with if the conditions are lousy ;) 73 Craig AC0DS The balance control - if you have configured the Sub AF control as balance - will increase the audio level in one ear (e.g., main receive in the left ear) and decrease it in the other ear (e.g., sub receiver in the right ear) or vice versa in either dual Rx or Diversity mode. If you are using dual RX mode (only) and have set L - MIX - R to Ab Ab, the mix control will change the relative proportion of each signal in both ears (e.g., go from all main to all sub or vice versa). __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Hi Yes, for me it has a very real advantage. Most of the time the K3 is in 'diversity mode' although I am not strictly listening in diversity as my antennae are pointing in different directions. The advantage for me is that the receivers are locked together as well as they can be - including the filtering. I'll make up a switch box / balance control. I didn't expect this thread to grow quite the way it has! Thanks for the info. 73 Ian. W8JI Tom wrote: You are correct, that is not diversity mode but it has an advantage. We often do that on 160 meters, where my antennas have very deep wide-area nulls. We can lock one ear one direction and move the other ear to other directions to scan for signals. In this mode we often use different bandwidths and sometimes even have one channel USB and the other LSB on CW with the USB channel offset lower in frequency and the LSB channel offset higher. On SSB however it would obviously be same sideband and always same frequency, so I understand the utility in what you do. The one thing I dislike about the K3 is the location of volume controls while in that mode. I would prefer a fast balance or fader that is easy to grab to instantly fade one channel out. I think this is really what you are asking for. I have this feature on my antenna and audio selector panel. Easy to grab. Using dual audio gain controls is too cumbersome for this mode. http://www.w8ji.com/images/Shack/RX-ant-select.jpg 73 Tom - Original Message - From: g0afh g0...@g0afh.com To: d...@w3fpr.com; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:26 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question Hi Don, Imagine a system with good isolation between antennae such as you can achieve with long yagi's at VHF/UHF. In my left ear I have the main RX with stations from the UK, in my right ear I have the sub RX and stations from Europe. I have a QRM from another G in my left ear when I am called by a weak station from Europe which I hear in my right ear. As the antennae have nice patterns I can barley hear the QRM from the G on the antenna pointing at Europe. Now I want to mute or attenuate the audio from the main RX and listen to the audio from the sub RX in both ears. I know this will not be diversity any more but I'd quite like the filter controls to continue to affect both receivers without having to press BSET. After I have worked the station I need to return to diversity mode listening to both receivers again. Diversity mode almost does what I want with both receivers locked together, I just need to be able to select which audio I listen to at a given time. I can easily make up a box to switch the audio but I would have thought that what I want to do is not that uncommon. Hope this makes more sense. 73 Ian G0AFH Don Wilhelm wrote: Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each with their own antenna. I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity. Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing. 73, Don W3FPR The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
I think it is finally beginning to sink in here. Yes DIVRSTY mode would be one way to lock both receive VFOs together, with the transmit VFO on a separate frequency. (Another way would be to LINK the two VFOs and use RIT.) I can now see why you might want to use DIVRSTY mode even for non-diversity receive. As Joe described, you can use CONFIG:L-MIX-R to mix both receivers into both ears in dual receive, but not in DIVRSTY mode, and you can then use the BALANCE control to adjust the relative strengths of the two receivers. Before doing this in the heat of battle, though, you might want to experiment with it with the receivers LINKed and on the same frequency. Others have already pointed out that there will be picket-fencing in the frequency response, and you can actually see this for yourself. With both receivers having matched roofing filters and both tuned to the same frequency and LINKed, using a single antenna, I observe a fairly pronounced picket-fence effect in the audio response as I tune past a carrier. In fact, I can hear notches in the band noise as well as in signal strengths as I tune up and down the band. This suggests to me that L-MIX-R would only be useful when the two receive VFOs are tuned to different frequencies. The frequencies must differ by at least a few 10s of Hz - if they are only a few Hz apart, I hear a very annoying, more or less rapid, beat or flutter in the audio. This, of course, only confirms what has already been pointed out (which is a consequence of the basic physics of the situation), but just in case you want or need to see it for yourself, you can easily give it a try... 73, Rich VE3KI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question [Thread ends shorltly..]
Folks - Let's end this thread ASAP. I'll allow another 4-5 postings, if necessary, then let's let it rest. I count 44 postings (some a little overheated emotionally ;-) in the past 1.5 days. Wy too many on a single topic. 73, Eric WA6HHQ List moderator __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
That's NOT the case. If anyone would actually try turning on the Mix feature that Lyle gave them access to via the utility terminal they would quickly discover for themselves that it DOES work, and it works VERY WELL. Especially when using a Beverage and Vertical antenna together. It can lower the noise ratio very effectively. Furthermore if you have 2 antennas that are working perpendicular directions on the same phase the L-R mixer will help increase the signal strength. It does NOT always cancel out signals. It does NOT cause picket fencing either, and you do not need to offset your Freq. either. For goodness sake people, try the thing, Stop making all these assumptions. Things on paper aren't always what they are when you apply them to practical situations. I'm sorry that Joe feels differently, and he's welcome to it, but this opinion is coming from someone that has not even bothered to try this feature out, because his theory on paper tells him otherwise. As someone that has, and IS using this feature on the K3 (though the Elecraft utility terminal window !EEFF;) I can say with FACT that it DOES work, and it works well for SOME, not all, situations. Some times it's easier to just try something than letting others tell you something isn't going to work.. No matter how smart they are or how convincing their theory is (and yes, I am giving Joe credit for being an intelligent person). Finally, I'll only ask that Joe doesn't make any more personal attacks on here because my views differ from his. This is a discussion with more than one opinion. I have 25 years of experience using Radio, doing design work, repairs, and I've been using Diversity mode with and without mixing for MANY years, regardless of what he thinks. Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 13:10:26 -0400 From: ve3...@storm.ca To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question I think it is finally beginning to sink in here. Yes DIVRSTY mode would be one way to lock both receive VFOs together, with the transmit VFO on a separate frequency. (Another way would be to LINK the two VFOs and use RIT.) I can now see why you might want to use DIVRSTY mode even for non-diversity receive. As Joe described, you can use CONFIG:L-MIX-R to mix both receivers into both ears in dual receive, but not in DIVRSTY mode, and you can then use the BALANCE control to adjust the relative strengths of the two receivers. Before doing this in the heat of battle, though, you might want to experiment with it with the receivers LINKed and on the same frequency. Others have already pointed out that there will be picket-fencing in the frequency response, and you can actually see this for yourself. With both receivers having matched roofing filters and both tuned to the same frequency and LINKed, using a single antenna, I observe a fairly pronounced picket-fence effect in the audio response as I tune past a carrier. In fact, I can hear notches in the band noise as well as in signal strengths as I tune up and down the band. This suggests to me that L-MIX-R would only be useful when the two receive VFOs are tuned to different frequencies. The frequencies must differ by at least a few 10s of Hz - if they are only a few Hz apart, I hear a very annoying, more or less rapid, beat or flutter in the audio. This, of course, only confirms what has already been pointed out (which is a consequence of the basic physics of the situation), but just in case you want or need to see it for yourself, you can easily give it a try... 73, Rich VE3KI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
I understand that Eric has said that's it on this discussion but I will not allow outright LIES to stand. I'm sorry that Joe feels differently, and he's welcome to it, but this opinion is coming from someone that has not even bothered to try this feature out, because his theory on paper tells him otherwise. I'm not speaking opinion and I'm not speaking from theory ... I have used diversity receive in many situations both professionally and as an amateur. That first hand experience has confirmed as absolute fact what the theory predicts that mixing the two outputs creates the same fading as one is trying to overcome by using diversity. I'm not the only one who is fully aware of that fact of physics ... every commercial diversity system ever built either uses some form of switching to select the signal with a higher signal to noise ratio or employs an automatic phase compensating combiner. Mixing is appropriate and supported in DUAL RECEIVE mode - if you want to mix, use that mode - don't screw up diversity for everyone just to satisfy your own laziness and obvious lack of technical competence. Finally, I'll only ask that Joe doesn't make any more personal attacks on here because my views differ from his. Anyone who accuses people of being silicon cops has no room to ask that people refrain from personal attacks. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/7/2010 2:23 PM, The Smiths wrote: That's NOT the case. If anyone would actually try turning on the Mix feature that Lyle gave them access to via the utility terminal they would quickly discover for themselves that it DOES work, and it works VERY WELL. Especially when using a Beverage and Vertical antenna together. It can lower the noise ratio very effectively. Furthermore if you have 2 antennas that are working perpendicular directions on the same phase the L-R mixer will help increase the signal strength. It does NOT always cancel out signals. It does NOT cause picket fencing either, and you do not need to offset your Freq. either. For goodness sake people, try the thing, Stop making all these assumptions. Things on paper aren't always what they are when you apply them to practical situations. I'm sorry that Joe feels differently, and he's welcome to it, but this opinion is coming from someone that has not even bothered to try this feature out, because his theory on paper tells him otherwise. As someone that has, and IS using this feature on the K3 (though the Elecraft utility terminal window !EEFF;) I can say with FACT that it DOES work, and it works well for SOME, not all, situations. Some times it's easier to just try something than letting others tell you something isn't going to work.. No matter how smart they are or how convincing their theory is (and yes, I am giving Joe credit for being an intelligent person). Finally, I'll only ask that Joe doesn't make any more personal attacks on here because my views differ from his. This is a discussion with more than one opinion. I have 25 years of experience using Radio, doing design work, repairs, and I've been using Diversity mode with and without mixing for MANY years, regardless of what he thinks. Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 13:10:26 -0400 From: ve3...@storm.ca To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question I think it is finally beginning to sink in here. Yes DIVRSTY mode would be one way to lock both receive VFOs together, with the transmit VFO on a separate frequency. (Another way would be to LINK the two VFOs and use RIT.) I can now see why you might want to use DIVRSTY mode even for non-diversity receive. As Joe described, you can use CONFIG:L-MIX-R to mix both receivers into both ears in dual receive, but not in DIVRSTY mode, and you can then use the BALANCE control to adjust the relative strengths of the two receivers. Before doing this in the heat of battle, though, you might want to experiment with it with the receivers LINKed and on the same frequency. Others have already pointed out that there will be picket-fencing in the frequency response, and you can actually see this for yourself. With both receivers having matched roofing filters and both tuned to the same frequency and LINKed, using a single antenna, I observe a fairly pronounced picket-fence effect in the audio response as I tune past a carrier. In fact, I can hear notches in the band noise as well as in signal strengths as I tune up and down the band. This suggests to me that L-MIX-R would only be useful when the two receive VFOs are tuned to different frequencies. The frequencies must differ by at least a few 10s of Hz - if they are only a few Hz apart, I hear a very annoying, more or less rapid, beat or flutter in the audio. This, of course, only confirms what has already been pointed out (which is a consequence of the basic physics of the situation), but just in case you want or need to see it for yourself, you can easily
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Not having a perfect diversity set up here at my QTH, I can say that all of your first hand experience both as an amateur and as a professional differs from my personal findings. So we'll have to agree to disagree. As you see, I am not attacking you personally, or even saying that you are wrong, simply that I disagree with your knowledge based on my personal use with MY particular set ups. As for not wanting to screw up everyone's diversity mode, well, I would suggest that you also request that the RIT, XIT, Notch and Split button all get removed from your rig as well. After all, any one of those buttons can easily put your rig in a state where you're unable to receive or transmit on it's intended frequency. Therefore it could potentially make communications un-useable on your rig. Imagine if the Notch was accidently turned on and the selected notch freq. was sitting right in the middle of your pass band. As you already know, you would now hear NOTHING.. Just like the cancelation that you fear so much could happen with the Mixer mode enabled in the config menu, should one voluntarily and purposefully turn it on. Having an option that can be disabled by a config menu is no different than any of the above buttons I've just talked about. For those of us that will find this feature useful I would rather YOU not be the deciding factor as to whether or not it is available for my use. It fact, as I pointed out to you in private e-mail, it was Lyle in his last post to us that suggested who is he to be the Silicon police and it's not his place to decide who can do what with their rigs. I don't recall naming you directly Joe. I'm sorry that this has become such a difficult thing for you to discuss. Eric, I would suggest that this is the right time to end this thread... It's obvious that some have become so agitated they can no longer have a rational discussion on the subject, it seems this may have escalated to an emotional level for some. Thank you for allowing the extra few posts. _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question [ END of Thread]
The technical content of this thread, including the disagreements, has been fine and quite informative. But the large volume of postings on this topic, and the loss of civility by several posters, has now ended its usefulness. [Thread ended] 73, Eric WA6HHQ List Moderator - and playground monitor from time to time.. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Hi Don, Imagine a system with good isolation between antennae such as you can achieve with long yagi's at VHF/UHF. In my left ear I have the main RX with stations from the UK, in my right ear I have the sub RX and stations from Europe. I have a QRM from another G in my left ear when I am called by a weak station from Europe which I hear in my right ear. As the antennae have nice patterns I can barley hear the QRM from the G on the antenna pointing at Europe. Now I want to mute or attenuate the audio from the main RX and listen to the audio from the sub RX in both ears. I know this will not be diversity any more but I'd quite like the filter controls to continue to affect both receivers without having to press BSET. After I have worked the station I need to return to diversity mode listening to both receivers again. Diversity mode almost does what I want with both receivers locked together, I just need to be able to select which audio I listen to at a given time. I can easily make up a box to switch the audio but I would have thought that what I want to do is not that uncommon. Hope this makes more sense. 73 Ian G0AFH Don Wilhelm wrote: Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each with their own antenna. I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity. Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing. 73, Don W3FPR The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Yes... this is something I'd like to see as well In the RSGB/IARU 50mhz annual contest, the station here consists of 4 large antenna systems and 4 receivers. It would be beneficial to me if I was able to drop that down to 2 K3's! 73, Andy http://gd0tep.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of g0afh Sent: 06 July 2010 08:26 To: d...@w3fpr.com; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question Hi Don, Imagine a system with good isolation between antennae such as you can achieve with long yagi's at VHF/UHF. In my left ear I have the main RX with stations from the UK, in my right ear I have the sub RX and stations from Europe. I have a QRM from another G in my left ear when I am called by a weak station from Europe which I hear in my right ear. As the antennae have nice patterns I can barley hear the QRM from the G on the antenna pointing at Europe. Now I want to mute or attenuate the audio from the main RX and listen to the audio from the sub RX in both ears. I know this will not be diversity any more but I'd quite like the filter controls to continue to affect both receivers without having to press BSET. After I have worked the station I need to return to diversity mode listening to both receivers again. Diversity mode almost does what I want with both receivers locked together, I just need to be able to select which audio I listen to at a given time. I can easily make up a box to switch the audio but I would have thought that what I want to do is not that uncommon. Hope this makes more sense. 73 Ian G0AFH Don Wilhelm wrote: Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each with their own antenna. I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity. Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing. 73, Don W3FPR The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
...However, where I am having an issue is when my poor receiving Vertical antenna is NOT receiving a signal my Well receiving Horz antenna is, and then Some times reverse. I would like to be able to mix the main onto the sub, and the sub onto the main's earphone.. The only way this would work is to always mute the weaker side, and always feed the strong side into both headphones. As stated by several others here, true combining would not work because of the varying phase difference between the main and diversity inputs. We implemented combining for diversity digital (QAM) receivers back in my microwave days at Rockwell. The IF combiner continuously rotated the phase of the diversity receiver so as to keep the combined amplitude at a maximum. This was not a trivial process. And, of course, both receivers were fed with the same local oscillator. For analog receivers, we used a simple A/B diversity switch where we switched to the stronger side when the signal we were on was getting close to threshold and the other side had a better S/N. Couldn't do this with digital signals since a simple switch would cause a frame hit/re-sync. So the IF combiner was used for diversity reception in our digital radios. Phil - AD5X __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
You are correct, that is not diversity mode but it has an advantage. We often do that on 160 meters, where my antennas have very deep wide-area nulls. We can lock one ear one direction and move the other ear to other directions to scan for signals. In this mode we often use different bandwidths and sometimes even have one channel USB and the other LSB on CW with the USB channel offset lower in frequency and the LSB channel offset higher. On SSB however it would obviously be same sideband and always same frequency, so I understand the utility in what you do. The one thing I dislike about the K3 is the location of volume controls while in that mode. I would prefer a fast balance or fader that is easy to grab to instantly fade one channel out. I think this is really what you are asking for. I have this feature on my antenna and audio selector panel. Easy to grab. Using dual audio gain controls is too cumbersome for this mode. http://www.w8ji.com/images/Shack/RX-ant-select.jpg 73 Tom - Original Message - From: g0afh g0...@g0afh.com To: d...@w3fpr.com; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:26 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question Hi Don, Imagine a system with good isolation between antennae such as you can achieve with long yagi's at VHF/UHF. In my left ear I have the main RX with stations from the UK, in my right ear I have the sub RX and stations from Europe. I have a QRM from another G in my left ear when I am called by a weak station from Europe which I hear in my right ear. As the antennae have nice patterns I can barley hear the QRM from the G on the antenna pointing at Europe. Now I want to mute or attenuate the audio from the main RX and listen to the audio from the sub RX in both ears. I know this will not be diversity any more but I'd quite like the filter controls to continue to affect both receivers without having to press BSET. After I have worked the station I need to return to diversity mode listening to both receivers again. Diversity mode almost does what I want with both receivers locked together, I just need to be able to select which audio I listen to at a given time. I can easily make up a box to switch the audio but I would have thought that what I want to do is not that uncommon. Hope this makes more sense. 73 Ian G0AFH Don Wilhelm wrote: Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each with their own antenna. I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity. Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing. 73, Don W3FPR The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
After using the diversity feature with two receiving arrays for the last season on 160 and 80, I am with Joe 100% on this one. The fades and peaks I experience in the two ears are summed in the brain far more effectively than I would have imagined. On 80 meters (our RX arrays are 800' separated), we actually hear different stations in each ear coming over different paths. The really motivated operators have trained themselves to take advantage of this pileup separation filter. You would have to add a computer programmed for Laplace Transforms to gain the summing effect you desire. The audio mixer is not capable of summing peaks and cancelling nulls. The K3 diversity feature is unique and requires a paradigm shift when you first start using it. It is like hearing surround-sound for the first time and trying to correlate the spatial positions of the various musical instruments. After a while, you can just relax and enjoy the effect without dwelling on the technology. Tom Taormina, K5RC Virginia City NV Home of W7RN and K7RC http://k5rc.cc http://k5rc.cc FOC 1760 Communication is the problem to the answer - 10cc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Tom, about the balance control - my K3 is set up like the way you describe. The inner knob (AF) controls the volume while the outer knob (SUB) determines the balance between main and sub receivers. When placed totally CCW, I have only the main RX in my phones. Fully CW yields only sub RX audio. I usually have it placed in the center position so I hear both RXs at equal volume. I can't remember how I set it up (it was added in an early firmware update) but I'm sure someone will post the answer here. 73 Glenn ON4WIX / OR4W - Original Message - From: W8JI Tom w...@w8ji.com To: g0afh g0...@g0afh.com; d...@w3fpr.com; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question You are correct, that is not diversity mode but it has an advantage. We often do that on 160 meters, where my antennas have very deep wide-area nulls. We can lock one ear one direction and move the other ear to other directions to scan for signals. In this mode we often use different bandwidths and sometimes even have one channel USB and the other LSB on CW with the USB channel offset lower in frequency and the LSB channel offset higher. On SSB however it would obviously be same sideband and always same frequency, so I understand the utility in what you do. The one thing I dislike about the K3 is the location of volume controls while in that mode. I would prefer a fast balance or fader that is easy to grab to instantly fade one channel out. I think this is really what you are asking for. I have this feature on my antenna and audio selector panel. Easy to grab. Using dual audio gain controls is too cumbersome for this mode. http://www.w8ji.com/images/Shack/RX-ant-select.jpg 73 Tom - Original Message - From: g0afh g0...@g0afh.com To: d...@w3fpr.com; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:26 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question Hi Don, Imagine a system with good isolation between antennae such as you can achieve with long yagi's at VHF/UHF. In my left ear I have the main RX with stations from the UK, in my right ear I have the sub RX and stations from Europe. I have a QRM from another G in my left ear when I am called by a weak station from Europe which I hear in my right ear. As the antennae have nice patterns I can barley hear the QRM from the G on the antenna pointing at Europe. Now I want to mute or attenuate the audio from the main RX and listen to the audio from the sub RX in both ears. I know this will not be diversity any more but I'd quite like the filter controls to continue to affect both receivers without having to press BSET. After I have worked the station I need to return to diversity mode listening to both receivers again. Diversity mode almost does what I want with both receivers locked together, I just need to be able to select which audio I listen to at a given time. I can easily make up a box to switch the audio but I would have thought that what I want to do is not that uncommon. Hope this makes more sense. 73 Ian G0AFH Don Wilhelm wrote: Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each with their own antenna. I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity. Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing. 73, Don W3FPR The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
For me, the need for the audio mixer is not to crush the stereo XY, but more to let me receive while in diversity mode BOTH of my antennas at the same time, and let the mixer route my audio to both headsets so as I don't have to listen to it fall from one over another. In your case you don't have true diversity - you are not hearing the same signal on both receivers. You could achieve the result you seek simply by using the dual receive mode and locking the two VFOs on the same frequency. Again, it does not require any programming time and does not create the possibility for operator error in diversity. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/5/2010 11:57 PM, The Smiths wrote: Okay Joe, Your point is very well taken.. I understand what you are saying very clearly. I have the scope, and I've set it to look at phase between the two channels. I guess I need to clarify something. When I'm in diversity mode I don't seem to have both signals on both antennas at the same time. This is where we are having a problem communicating. I'm not going to disagree with your theory that the signals WOULD cancel out the stereo imaging if I were to push one phase onto the other. I believe this is true, and I know it for fact. However, where I am having an issue is when my poor receiving Vertical antenna is NOT receiving a signal my Well receiving Horz antenna is, and then Some times reverse. I would like to be able to mix the main onto the sub, and the sub onto the main's earphone For me, the need for the audio mixer is not to crush the stereo XY, but more to let me receive while in diversity mode BOTH of my antennas at the same time, and let the mixer route my audio to both headsets so as I don't have to listen to it fall from one over another. Admittedly, I don't have the best diversity set up here at my QTH, so for me it's more important that I keep a constant signal in both ears rather than one at a time. Now, just for the sake of it, I would like you to tune to a signal that you are having the phasing sound with in diversity mode. Then, go to the utility and enter in !BEFF; in the terminal window. I would then like you to email me back and let me know that you didn't hear BOTH of your antennas at the same time, in both ears. I would be interested to know if you get NO signal at all from the same very station you were just listening to in both ears. Or even a reduced signal level. From my experience I've never had a signal cancel on me, I've only had it double in loudness. I'm sorry, I know this goes against what we both agree on when it comes to XY phase, but it's just the way it is. Do it for yourself and stop thinking theory.. Try reality. (I don't mean that as an insult, but rather a practical challenge.) Again, even if this was the worst idea, it's still not going to affect YOUR rig if you never turn it on. This isn't an argument.. I was merely backing up the reasoning that the other person made the request. So, other than your return email to me after you've completed my test, can we PLEASE end this thread? Were beating a dead horse. _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
The one thing I dislike about the K3 is the location of volume controls while in that mode. I would prefer a fast balance or fader that is easy to grab to instantly fade one channel out. I think this is really what you are asking for. Tom, You and others may want to consider this simple mod to the K3, that for me has made a big ergonomic difference in the operation of the K3's balance control during split operations. The balance control is now on the longer inner concentric knob by keeping the AF and RF knobs together on the same control. Keep in mind that this mod could be done through firmware and although I have not seen it as an optional menu feature, I may have overlooked it in past firmware updates. So before anyone makes the hardware change, it would be a good idea to see if Lyle had previously added it in firmware: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2009-September/115677.html Of course, a couple panel legends require new labels. I used Brother P-Touch labels that blend nicely against the existing silk-screened legends. The link above references old URLs to photos of the modified PCB. They are now at: http://72.52.250.47/images/K3-AF-1.jpg http://72.52.250.47/images/K3-AF-1.jpg Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Sorry, duplication of links. The board before modification... http://72.52.250.47/images/K3-AF-1.jpg And after... http://72.52.250.47/images/K3-AF-2.jpg Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Config: Sub AF - set to BALANCE to have the SUB AF GAIN control to become a main/sub AF balance control when the sub receiver is turned on. George AI4VZ -- Tom, about the balance control - my K3 is set up like the way you describe. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
There is a balance control on your rig, you have to assign the SUB AF Gain in the Config menu to balance mode, but without the AB BA Mixer on too, you would only have audio in the left or the right. With the mixing ON, AND balance control you can have mono audio in diversity mode with both speakers active. Obviously others are seeing my point now. It can be a VERY useful tool, even for diversity mode. From: w...@w8ji.com To: g0...@g0afh.com; d...@w3fpr.com; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:22:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question You are correct, that is not diversity mode but it has an advantage. We often do that on 160 meters, where my antennas have very deep wide-area nulls. We can lock one ear one direction and move the other ear to other directions to scan for signals. In this mode we often use different bandwidths and sometimes even have one channel USB and the other LSB on CW with the USB channel offset lower in frequency and the LSB channel offset higher. On SSB however it would obviously be same sideband and always same frequency, so I understand the utility in what you do. The one thing I dislike about the K3 is the location of volume controls while in that mode. I would prefer a fast balance or fader that is easy to grab to instantly fade one channel out. I think this is really what you are asking for. I have this feature on my antenna and audio selector panel. Easy to grab. Using dual audio gain controls is too cumbersome for this mode. http://www.w8ji.com/images/Shack/RX-ant-select.jpg 73 Tom - Original Message - From: g0afh g0...@g0afh.com To: d...@w3fpr.com; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:26 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question Hi Don, Imagine a system with good isolation between antennae such as you can achieve with long yagi's at VHF/UHF. In my left ear I have the main RX with stations from the UK, in my right ear I have the sub RX and stations from Europe. I have a QRM from another G in my left ear when I am called by a weak station from Europe which I hear in my right ear. As the antennae have nice patterns I can barley hear the QRM from the G on the antenna pointing at Europe. Now I want to mute or attenuate the audio from the main RX and listen to the audio from the sub RX in both ears. I know this will not be diversity any more but I'd quite like the filter controls to continue to affect both receivers without having to press BSET. After I have worked the station I need to return to diversity mode listening to both receivers again. Diversity mode almost does what I want with both receivers locked together, I just need to be able to select which audio I listen to at a given time. I can easily make up a box to switch the audio but I would have thought that what I want to do is not that uncommon. Hope this makes more sense. 73 Ian G0AFH Don Wilhelm wrote: Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each with their own antenna. I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity. Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing. 73, Don W3FPR The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
If the Silicone Police didn't interfere, this feature that has already been programmed and ready for implementation could be turned on and this discussion would be over. Some times it's just easier to let a feature go that others don't see the use for instead of policing how others use their radios. This is NOT a feature that would affect your operation if it were made available. I know that Lyle sees this as being the case, as he's already said exactly what I just did. However, what disappoints me more is the fact that Joe, you didn't even bother to try it out like I asked you too... You're mind is just made up before you've seen what it actually does on some weak signals. There is more than just myself out here that don't have the perfect Diversity antenna set up. Many people in small QTH's have exactally what I have for a set up, and this feature would help them out greatly. You've already heard from others that have their ideas on how to use this feature too. Yes, you're right, If I wanted to operate in Dual receive mode and track my VFO's together then make sure antennas were set up the way that they need to be, adjust all the other features, make sure the Width is set together... Or, I could just turn on the Mixer! Now, this has become an argument. At this point we should STOP talking about this.. We're agreeing at the same time we're arguingEnough said. Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:17:59 -0400 From: li...@subich.com To: notforc...@hotmail.com CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question For me, the need for the audio mixer is not to crush the stereo XY, but more to let me receive while in diversity mode BOTH of my antennas at the same time, and let the mixer route my audio to both headsets so as I don't have to listen to it fall from one over another. In your case you don't have true diversity - you are not hearing the same signal on both receivers. You could achieve the result you seek simply by using the dual receive mode and locking the two VFOs on the same frequency. Again, it does not require any programming time and does not create the possibility for operator error in diversity. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/5/2010 11:57 PM, The Smiths wrote: Okay Joe, Your point is very well taken.. I understand what you are saying very clearly. I have the scope, and I've set it to look at phase between the two channels. I guess I need to clarify something. When I'm in diversity mode I don't seem to have both signals on both antennas at the same time. This is where we are having a problem communicating. I'm not going to disagree with your theory that the signals WOULD cancel out the stereo imaging if I were to push one phase onto the other. I believe this is true, and I know it for fact. However, where I am having an issue is when my poor receiving Vertical antenna is NOT receiving a signal my Well receiving Horz antenna is, and then Some times reverse. I would like to be able to mix the main onto the sub, and the sub onto the main's earphone For me, the need for the audio mixer is not to crush the stereo XY, but more to let me receive while in diversity mode BOTH of my antennas at the same time, and let the mixer route my audio to both headsets so as I don't have to listen to it fall from one over another. Admittedly, I don't have the best diversity set up here at my QTH, so for me it's more important that I keep a constant signal in both ears rather than one at a time. Now, just for the sake of it, I would like you to tune to a signal that you are having the phasing sound with in diversity mode. Then, go to the utility and enter in !BEFF; in the terminal window. I would then like you to email me back and let me know that you didn't hear BOTH of your antennas at the same time, in both ears. I would be interested to know if you get NO signal at all from the same very station you were just listening to in both ears. Or even a reduced signal level. From my experience I've never had a signal cancel on me, I've only had it double in loudness. I'm sorry, I know this goes against what we both agree on when it comes to XY phase, but it's just the way it is. Do it for yourself and stop thinking theory.. Try reality. (I don't mean that as an insult, but rather a practical challenge.) Again, even if this was the worst idea, it's still not going to affect YOUR rig if you never turn it on. This isn't an argument.. I was merely backing up the reasoning that the other person made the request. So, other than your return email to me after you've completed my test, can we PLEASE end this thread? Were beating a dead horse. _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
If the Silicone Police didn't interfere, this feature that has already been programmed and ready for implementation could be turned on and this discussion would be over. Some times it's just easier to let a feature go that others don't see the use for instead of policing how others use their radios. This is NOT a feature that would affect your operation if it were made available. I know that Lyle sees this as being the case, as he's already said exactly what I just did. However, what disappoints me more is the fact that Joe, you didn't even bother to try it out like I asked you too... You're mind is just made up before you've seen what it actually does on some weak signals. There is more than just myself out here that don't have the perfect Diversity antenna set up. Many people in small QTH's have exactally what I have for a set up, and this feature would help them out greatly. You've already heard from others that have their ideas on how to use this feature too. Yes, you're right, If I wanted to operate in Dual receive mode and track my VFO's together then make sure antennas were set up the way that they need to be, adjust all the other features, make sure the Width is set together... Or, I could just turn on the Mixer! Now, this has become an argument. At this point we should STOP talking about this.. We're agreeing at the same time we're arguingEnough said. _ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
On Tue, 6 Jul 2010 16:16:29 +, The Smiths wrote: Now, this has become an argument. That happens when some of the people talking don't know what they're talking about. Tom (JI), Tom (RC), Paul, Joe, and Guy know what they're talking about. They not only have the experience, they understand the physics. There is more to this than some folks understand. I urge them to go back and study my most early in this thread. Pete asks, Isn't the whole point of diversity reception in the K3 that the receivers **are** synchronized to the same clock? That puts them on VERY nearly the same frequency, but the RF inputs to the two RXs are from different antennas. Think about what W8JI has said, which is absolutely correct -- that is, to be effective in DIVERSITY mode, antennas must be widely separated. WHY? Because MOST fading is the result of cancellations between a direct wave and a reflected wave arriving at some particular point. This is EXACTLY the same as picket- fencing on VHF and UHF that we hear when we or the other station is mobile, or when there is a reflection from an airplane completing the path. When the signal peaks, the two delay between the two signals are some multiple of wavelengths so that they are precisely in phase AT THAT FREQUENCY. At some other frequency, they will be some degree of out of phase, and for some delay they will be 180 degrees out of phase. That fading is periodic, and is wavelength and frequency dependent. That's why it's fast at VHF/UHF, and MUCH slower on 160M -- indeed, that's what we're hearing when there's LONG, DEEP QSB on 160M. Diversity helps this by having two RXs listening to two antenna that are SPATIALLY separated from each other, so that when the null is at one antenna, the peak is more likely to be at the other (or, with less separation, the null is not so deep). But it is the TIME DIFFERENCE between these antennas, plus the delay in the feedlines of the two antennas, that produces the time offset between the two signals. And that time offset produces a phase difference that depends on the time and frequency. It is the relation of the time and frequency to phase shift that produces the ROTATION that several guys have talked about. That's the swimmy sound you hear in the headphones in diversity mode with widely separated antennas. 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
On Jul 6, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote: Because MOST fading is the result of cancellations between a direct wave and a reflected wave arriving at some particular point. HF fading is actually a very interesting phenomenon, and definitely not just a case of signal cancellation. If you decompose an RF signal into in-phase and the quadrature components, and then allow each component to go through a scattering function that has independent Gaussian statistics, the resultant signal vector has what is called the bivariate Gaussian distribution. The most interesting thing about this is the modulus of a bivariate Gaussian has a ta, da Rayleigh Distribution! [Gaussian statistics (the Bell curve) is something very common in science, being the direct consequence of something in mathematics called the Central Limit Theorem.] Phenomena such as flat fading and selective fading (the reason why we need synchronous AM detection and why we use two tones in RTTY) that we encounter on HF occurs in a Rayleigh channel even when the signal is not multi-pathed. Multipath fading (also called Rician fading) is the result of cancellation of signals from different paths. On HF, the scattering function of the ionosphere is enough to produce fading, without the need of multipath. Now, if you want very rapid fading (which we commonly classify as flutter), that is a different story -- I have only been able to produce it by introducing multiple paths. If you run an HF Channel Simulator such as PathSim (on Windows) or cocoaPath (on Mac OS X), you will notice that both flat fading and selective fading occur when the ionospheric model consists of only a single path. Both of these programs are free (and written by hams :-). Way back when, Johan KC7WW had written a channel simulator for Linux, but I haven't seen mention of it for a while now. Russ AA7QU has made some recordings of what CW and SSB sound like through an HF channel simulator (you'll need to excuse Russ for some of his proselytizing, he is a good friend and a friend of the Mac OS :-): http://adventure-radio.org/wiki/index.php?title=OOK_vs_21st_Century Indeed, one way you can lab test a receiver for HF conditions and get repeatable results, is to run a signal (CW, RTTY, etc) through an HF Channel Simulator and into an SSB transmitter (use a dummy load, or people who listens would think there is a solar flare on :-). Then tap off the transmitter output into the receiver under test. Channel simulators not only can model the ionosphere but can add a known amount of noise to model different signal-to-noise ratios. 73 Chen, W7AY Some quick references (you can find many more using Google): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_distribution http://mathworld.wolfram.com/BivariateNormalDistribution.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rician_fading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_distribution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem http://homepage.mac.com/chen/w7ay/cocoaPath/Contents/technical.html If you have access to IEEE Transactions (libraries or if you are an IEEE member) I highly recommend reading the Watterson paper that I referenced in the cocoaPath site. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
What you are trying to achieve is a (rather expensive) implementation of a, single, non-steerable, phased array antenna. If there really is no phase difference, you've effectively synthesised a diagonally polarized antenna (although I can't work out why your signal polarisations should only occupy one quadrant). You don't have a diversity system. You could achieve the same effect by summing at the input frequency after a buffer/pre-amplifier. If you actually summed both with and without a 180 degree shift between the two signals, you could feed them into the main and sub-rx and get true diversity between (for the diagonal case) the + and - 45 degree polarisations. Whether that is any better than true diversity between 0 and 90 degrees, I don't know. Top quoted through policy, not belief. The Smiths wrote: When I have phase shifting between the two antennas I don't have Phase shifting in my audio Left and right. In that I mean, if I look at the voltage on the o'scope I do not see the signal coming out of my head phones phasing from positive voltage to a negative voltage in the inverse between the two headphone outputs (L/R). Unlike AC where when one side swings negative, if you were to add the inverse you would cancel out the entire signal (as you guys keep saying is the case), this is not the case with the diversity reception here at my QTH (and no I don't live in the bermuda triangle). The phase is in the antenna reception.. Not the audio that we listen to. When my vertical is picking up a vertical phased signal it is very possible that my Horizontal antenna is not receiving any signal at all.. Therefore if I have Mix on so that the sub is placed in the Main's headphone I do not cancel out the audio in the both ears. I am simply adding AUDIO, not phase, to one side of my headphone or the other. -- David Woolley we do not overly restrict the subject matter on the list, and we encourage postings on a wide range of amateur radio related topics List Guidelines http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Hi David, The Beverage and the vertical are both vertically polarized. A single vertical is a very broad pattern with much less directivity than a Beverage. Since for receiving signal-to-noise is closely tied to directive pattern and not gain or antenna type, the vertical will have significantly less signal-to-noise ratio. By mixing them both in one channel the beverage is really being phased against the vertical, and this will almost certainly be better than the vertical alone. Anything quieter (more directive) mixed in would improve the poor S/N of the vertical. This is because the combination of the vertical and Beverage is more directional than the vertical alone, so being more directional it has to be quieter. I have no doubt the improvement seen by mixing the two is very real, but it would be better accomplished by using a noise canceller or phasing unit that allows adjustment of phase and levels, rather than random phase and level mixing. I'm not opposed in the least to having an ability to mix the main and sub channels at the audio output in diversity mode. Even though it is not diversity, it could have some uses for some people. For example, it could be used when receiving multiple directions on SSB. It would not be good for phasing two antennas, because the K3 slowly rotates phase shift between main and sub as the dial is rotated to new frequencies. It would be better to use a noise canceller to do that in front of the receivers if the receivers are not being used for split directions. I just strongly feel if allowed it should be something that can be locked out to prevent it from accidentally being applied to a system that is true diversity, since it would hurt that system. It could help people wanting to receive different directions at the same time using common bandwidths and other settings between both channels. maybe it is useful, but just under a different name (not in diversity) and way to activate. What you are trying to achieve is a (rather expensive) implementation of a, single, non-steerable, phased array antenna. It steers when the dial is turned, because main to sub phase rotates to a new difference as the dial is turned. If there really is no phase difference, you've effectively synthesised a diagonally polarized antenna (although I can't work out why your signal polarisations should only occupy one quadrant). You don't have a diversity system. You could achieve the same effect by summing at the input frequency after a buffer/pre-amplifier. Both a Beverage and vertical are vertically polarized. It would not be diagonal polarization in most directions, it would mostly be vertical in any phase combination since both antennas primarily have vertical response. 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
I've been following this discussion (at least the parts that aren't super-technical) since I recently installed the sub RX and plan to use it for CW contesting. As a new sub RX user I may not understand all the ins and outs of it, but here was my plan. When running, I like to use Split with the xmit freq on VFO B. I then tune the calling stations, if required, using VFO A. I normally use a fairly wide BW (300-500 Hz) to avoid much tuning on strong signals. I was hoping to use the diversity mode for this so that I could monitor two antennas at once, one in each ear. If copy became difficult or if the other antenna was creating more interference than help, it would be useful to use the balance control to focus my attention on the signal I was trying to copy. I understand this is not true diversity, at least in the extreme. But it does seem useful, at least to my simple-minded way of looking at things. I'm starting to prepare for the IARU contest this weekend, so if any of you more experienced sub-RX users have any suggestions please share them. 73 Craig AC0DS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
You could achieve the same effect by summing at the input frequency after a buffer/pre-amplifier. Or, I could just turn on the Mixer and do it all with one push of a button. Thank you for your input, I don't disagree with what you've said, I'm just suggesting that it's easier to push a single button on the rig instead of making buffer input mixers to do the same thing. Something tells me that Wayne or Eric will implement this function some day in the feature. Like myself, I don't think that they feel it's necessary to police how others make use of their radios. After all, it's just a matter of turning it on along with the other modes the mixer can run in now. The code has already been written... Now, Can we end this thread? (for the 4th time) _ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
If the Silicone Police didn't interfere, this feature that has already been programmed and ready for implementation could be turned on and this discussion would be over. That's about as sanctimonious and stupid as I've heard on this list for a long time. It is obviously based in the ignorance of a long time appliance operator who has no idea what he's talking about. Wayne has regularly indicated that he has a very long list of programming items for the K3 and that he does not like to spend time on items that can already be accomplished, that create added options (lock out) or opportunities to confuse most users, and most certainly can result in decreased or improper performance of the K3. Your temper tantrum meets all three of those tests. This is NOT a feature that would affect your operation if it were made available. This is most certainly a misfeature that would result in decreased performance to my receiver if it were enabled. I know that Lyle sees this as being the case, as he's already said exactly what I just did. Lyle gave you one way to achieve your desired goals, I gave you another ... both use existing capabilities of the K3 and neither represent the potential for improper operation of diversity mode. However, what disappoints me more is the fact that Joe, you didn't even bother to try it out like I asked you too... You're mind is just made up before you've seen what it actually does on some weak signals. I did not need to try it out this time. I've used diversity and I know full well from experience what happens when one MIXES audio rather than keeping each channel separate. You, on the other hand, are so hell bent on getting your own way that you will insist on a decrease in performance of the rig for every other user rather than use the dual receive function which is more appropriate in your case. Now, this has become an argument. You're right - this has become an argument. That's generally what happens when one party in a debate lacks is incapable of realizing when their position is factually incorrect and logically flawed. You're not arguing with my experience, you continue to argue with W8JI, K9YC, W7AY and many other very experienced engineers and operators. Hell, if you want to mix audio in diversity, just set Speakers = 1 and plug your headphones into the speaker jack. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/6/2010 12:23 PM, The Smiths wrote: If the Silicone Police didn't interfere, this feature that has already been programmed and ready for implementation could be turned on and this discussion would be over. Some times it's just easier to let a feature go that others don't see the use for instead of policing how others use their radios. This is NOT a feature that would affect your operation if it were made available. I know that Lyle sees this as being the case, as he's already said exactly what I just did. However, what disappoints me more is the fact that Joe, you didn't even bother to try it out like I asked you too... You're mind is just made up before you've seen what it actually does on some weak signals. There is more than just myself out here that don't have the perfect Diversity antenna set up. Many people in small QTH's have exactally what I have for a set up, and this feature would help them out greatly. You've already heard from others that have their ideas on how to use this feature too. Yes, you're right, If I wanted to operate in Dual receive mode and track my VFO's together then make sure antennas were set up the way that they need to be, adjust all the other features, make sure the Width is set together... Or, I could just turn on the Mixer! Now, this has become an argument. At this point we should STOP talking about this.. We're agreeing at the same time we're arguingEnough said. _ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Craig, What you suggest is perfectly possible, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with diversity reception. It is simply dual receive. You can use dual receive either on two separate frequencies, as you suggest (listening to the DX on one receiver and the pileup on the other), or on the same frequency (e.g. listening to two antennas non-coherently and summing or mixing the audio signals as desired). In addition to the mode you have suggested (SPLIT on, main RX listening to the DX, subRX listening to the pileup where you will be transmitting), you can also turn SPLIT off and listen to the DX on the subRX and the pileup on the main RX. With SPLIT off, the main tuning knob controls your transmitter's frequency. I find this method easier to use than the other method, but that's a personal preference. Either way, you can use the balance control and mixing options to control how much of each receiver you hear in each ear. In dual receive mode, the two VFOs run independently. If you choose, the K3 allows you to link the two VFO frequencies together by holding the SUB button to enter LINK mode. What this actually does is allow the main tuning encoder to change the two VFO frequencies in parallel. It does not phase-lock the two VFOs, which still run independently (non-coherently). If they started out on the same frequency at the time you linked them, they will continue to stay together in frequency as you turn the main tuning knob, but the VFO B knob can also be used to control VFO B separately from VFO A. To detach the main tuning knob encoder from VFO B, hold SUB again to UNLINK the two VFOs. Diversity mode is different; in effect, what it means is that both receivers are using a single VFO. The VFO B knob can control the transmitter in SPLIT when you are in diversity mode, but whether you are in SPLIT or not, the VFO B knob has no effect on either receiver. You cannot listen on two different frequencies at once in diversity mode. 73, Rich VE3KI AC0DS wrote: When running, I like to use Split with the xmit freq on VFO B. I then tune the calling stations, if required, using VFO A. I normally use a fairly wide BW (300-500 Hz) to avoid much tuning on strong signals. I was hoping to use the diversity mode for this so that I could monitor two antennas at once, one in each ear. If copy became difficult or if the other antenna was creating more interference than help, it would be useful to use the balance control to focus my attention on the signal I was trying to copy. I understand this is not true diversity, at least in the extreme. But it does seem useful, at least to my simple-minded way of looking at things. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Hi Rich ... Thanks for the response. Actually, I think I didn't explain myself well enough in my posting. I wasn't referring to a DX split situation where the xmit and rx freq are substantially different. I was referring to contest operation where I am running stations that are normally on my transmit freq but with the occasional need to fine tune the calling station if they are off frequency. Rather than do this with RIT, I am accustomed to using SPLIT, fixing my xmit freq on VFO B and fine tuning for rx with VFO A. This is what I did before installing the subRX. Now that I have the subRX, I want to do the same thing, except put the subRX in diversity mode so that I can listen with two antennas simultaneously while still reserving VFO B for the fixed xmit freq. This way I can listen at the same time to my Xmit antenna and an antenna connected to the SubRX Aux IN (usually my K9AY). These antennas have different noise levels, polarization and directionality, so it is useful to listen with both of them, at least until I find the station I want to respond to. My question revolves around how the balance control operates when set up as above. Some posters have indicated that it doesn't work when in diversity mode. I'm interested in what others have found useful when using this type of arrangement. i.e. - how to quickly emphasize one antenna or the other if needed for a particular station. 73 Craig AC0DS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Craig, What you need is *not* diversity mode. Diversity mode will not allow you to fine tune one receiver differently from the other one. What you need is plain vanilla dual receive. You can either do it in SPLIT mode the way you describe, or reversed (with the transmitter on VFO A, the main receiver using the transmit antenna, and the subRX listening on the Aux antenna and playing the role of the fine tuning receiver). Using the reversed method, a simple tap of AB brings the second receiver back to your transmit frequency, whereas in SPLIT mode you have to press two buttons (A/B then AB) to bring the two receivers back together on your chosen transmit frequency. Either way, you would set the subRX to receive on its Aux input in order to listen on two antennas simultaneously. With stereo headphones, the balance control will control the relative volume in the two ears, i.e. the relative volume of the two receivers. With a mono speaker (CONFIG:SPKRS = 1), or mono headphones plugged into the rear speaker jack, you can control how much of each receiver you hear in the mono audio using the balance control. 73, Rich VE3KI Hi Rich ... Thanks for the response. Actually, I think I didn't explain myself well enough in my posting. I wasn't referring to a DX split situation where the xmit and rx freq are substantially different. I was referring to contest operation where I am running stations that are normally on my transmit freq but with the occasional need to fine tune the calling station if they are off frequency. Rather than do this with RIT, I am accustomed to using SPLIT, fixing my xmit freq on VFO B and fine tuning for rx with VFO A. This is what I did before installing the subRX. Now that I have the subRX, I want to do the same thing, except put the subRX in diversity mode so that I can listen with two antennas simultaneously while still reserving VFO B for the fixed xmit freq. This way I can listen at the same time to my Xmit antenna and an antenna connected to the SubRX Aux IN (usually my K9AY). These antennas have different noise levels, polarization and directionality, so it is useful to listen with both of them, at least until I find the station I want to respond to. My question revolves around how the balance control operates when set up as above. Some posters have indicated that it doesn't work when in diversity mode. I'm interested in what others have found useful when using this type of arrangement. i.e. - how to quickly emphasize one antenna or the other if needed for a particular station. 73 Craig AC0DS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Subject: Elecraft email List Official Guidelines 2010a Date: 07/03/2010 From: e...@elecraft.com ... 5a. Please do not post publicly or privately asking people to stop a particular thread, no matter how long, off topic or repetitive it gets. Email me instead. I will step in when I feel it is necessary to end a thread. (e...@elecraft.com) ... On 07/06/10 19:42, The Smiths wrote: Now, Can we end this thread? (for the 4th time) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Craig, The balance control - if you have configured the Sub AF control as balance - will increase the audio level in one ear (e.g., main receive in the left ear) and decrease it in the other ear (e.g., sub receiver in the right ear) or vice versa in either dual Rx or Diversity mode. If you are using dual RX mode (only) and have set L - MIX - R to Ab Ab, the mix control will change the relative proportion of each signal in both ears (e.g., go from all main to all sub or vice versa). 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/6/2010 9:36 PM, Craig D. Smith wrote: Hi Rich ... Thanks for the response. Actually, I think I didn't explain myself well enough in my posting. I wasn't referring to a DX split situation where the xmit and rx freq are substantially different. I was referring to contest operation where I am running stations that are normally on my transmit freq but with the occasional need to fine tune the calling station if they are off frequency. Rather than do this with RIT, I am accustomed to using SPLIT, fixing my xmit freq on VFO B and fine tuning for rx with VFO A. This is what I did before installing the subRX. Now that I have the subRX, I want to do the same thing, except put the subRX in diversity mode so that I can listen with two antennas simultaneously while still reserving VFO B for the fixed xmit freq. This way I can listen at the same time to my Xmit antenna and an antenna connected to the SubRX Aux IN (usually my K9AY). These antennas have different noise levels, polarization and directionality, so it is useful to listen with both of them, at least until I find the station I want to respond to. My question revolves around how the balance control operates when set up as above. Some posters have indicated that it doesn't work when in diversity mode. I'm interested in what others have found useful when using this type of arrangement. i.e. - how to quickly emphasize one antenna or the other if needed for a particular station. 73 Craig AC0DS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Hi Is there a way to get the audio from the sub receiver into both ears without external switching? Here is why I want to do it. K3 in diversity mode so that frequency and filtering is locked together. Main RX on an antenna pointing in one direction. Sub RX on an antenna pointing in different direction. If I am called by a weak station on the Sub RX and I have QRM on the main RX I'd like to switch both ears across to the Sub RX to concentrate on the weak station.. As far as I can tell I can't do this in the K3. 73 Ian G0AFH __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Is there a way to get the audio from the sub receiver into both ears without external switching? Yes. See the firmware release notes and CONFIG:L-MIX-R 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
I've asked for this feature to be implemented as well. The feature is already available in the Config menu now, but it only works with Sub receiver ON. It does not however work when Diversity mode is on.. seems a little odd, as that's the most important time to have the sub in your both ears... It's on the list I'm sure. We should see that soon hopefully. Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 21:08:31 +0100 From: g0...@g0afh.com To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question Hi Is there a way to get the audio from the sub receiver into both ears without external switching? Here is why I want to do it. K3 in diversity mode so that frequency and filtering is locked together. Main RX on an antenna pointing in one direction. Sub RX on an antenna pointing in different direction. If I am called by a weak station on the Sub RX and I have QRM on the main RX I'd like to switch both ears across to the Sub RX to concentrate on the weak station.. As far as I can tell I can't do this in the K3. 73 Ian G0AFH __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 13:15:53 -0700 From: k...@wavecable.com To: g0...@g0afh.com CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question Is there a way to get the audio from the sub receiver into both ears without external switching? Yes. See the firmware release notes and CONFIG:L-MIX-R 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... Making L-Mix-R function in diversity mode defeats the purpose of diversity mode. Placing EITHER receiver in both ears during diversity essentially disables diversity. I hate to be the one to say don't waste the programming time but this is another of those enhancements that is a complete waste of programmer time and does not make *ANY* practical sense. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/5/2010 4:41 PM, The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 13:15:53 -0700 From: k...@wavecable.com To: g0...@g0afh.com CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question Is there a way to get the audio from the sub receiver into both ears without external switching? Yes. See the firmware release notes and CONFIG:L-MIX-R 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
I'll echo W4TV's comments. The last thing anyone should do in diversity mode is mix one channel into two ears!!! The sole exception would be with perfectly phase stable relationship between channels, such as would be obtained with **one set** of master oscillators running into both receivers, where a control is available to shift phase relationships of the two channels. In this case the two channels could be mixed, and the result would be a peak or null as phase is rotated. I use a system like this for direction finding on HF signals but it requires common oscillator signals driving both receivers, so the Elecraft will not do this. http://www.w8ji.com/polarization_and_diversity.htm 73 Tom I've asked for this feature to be implemented as well. The feature is already available in the Config menu now, but it only works with Sub receiver ON. It does not however work when Diversity mode is on.. seems a little odd, as that's the most important time to have the sub in your both ears... It's on the list I'm sure. We should see that soon hopefully. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Diversity reception requires hearing both the main and the subRX, each with their own antenna. I do not understand why one would want to listen to only the subRX when doing diversity receive - it nullifies any benefit of diversity. Can you explain further, maybe there is something I am missing. 73, Don W3FPR The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Perhaps the person who wishes to hear both receivers in diversity mode is partially or fully deaf in one ear, so he or she needs the ability to listen to both receivers in the same audio transducer. My general inclination is to avoid silicon cops wherever possible as long as the result of doing so does not cause harm. Until this feature is available in the UI, you can use K3 Utility (or perhaps program a logging macro, or ? but not a K3 button macro) to send the string: !BEFF; to the K3 *after* you enter DIVRSTY mode. This will route all audio to both ears until you exit DVRSTY, at which time the A-MIX-B settings will take over. I don't know if there will be side effects you'd rather not hear when you do this, nor how often you'll have to send this string if you remain in DIVRSTY mode. But you can play with it and perhaps learn :-) Enjoy! 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:53:39 -0700, Lyle Johnson wrote: Perhaps the person who wishes to hear both receivers in diversity mode is partially or fully deaf in one ear, so he or she needs the ability to listen to both receivers in the same audio transducer. SNIP I don't know if there will be side effects you'd rather not hear when you do this, nor how often you'll have to send this string if you remain in DIVRSTY mode. The problem is that there ARE SERIOUS DESTRUCTIVE SIDE EFFECTS from mixing the audio from the two receivers in diversity mode because the two receivers are not in phase with each other! That is, they are listening to antennas that are PHYSICALLY SEPARATED, and thus are receiving the signal at different times. AND they may also be hearing a direct and reflected signal. BTW -- an important definition. Inverting the signal by reversing wires changes the POLARITY, not the phase. Phase is a continuously valued function that can have any value between -infinity degrees and +infinity degrees. The phase difference between two signals that differ in TIME is proportional to their time offset. When signals are precisely in phase AND in polarity with each other, they can be summed together in the same channel and they will add. When signals are precisely in phase and OUT of polarity, they will cancel. And when signals are out of phase and IN polarity with each other, they can add or cancel each other to varying degrees depending on the phase relationship AT EACH FREQUENCY! The result of such a summation produces a frequency response that looks like the teeth of a comb -- that is, peaks and dips of addition and cancellation. In the pro audio world, it is called comb filtering, or phasing, or flanging, depending on how the delays are generated and used. Bottom line -- it is a REALLY BAD IDEA to sum the output of both receivers into the same channel! It is a REALLY GOOD IDEA to put one RX in one ear and the other RX in the other, allowing the brain to combine them. 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you. Apparently you have not used diversity mode, or you haven't enjoyed it with an AB - BA (or AB- B) Mix mode on. The point behind diversity is NOT to have one antenna in one ear and another in the other.. The purpose of Diversity is to enable the user to hear a signal from TWO different sources (Main and Sub Receiver with Horz/Vertical antennas) at the same time. If you've ever used Diversity on a weak signal, or on a station that is phasing from Horz. to vertical polarization (as they do coming over the ocean all the time), then you would know that the signal SWIMS from your left ear to your right ear. This effect is NOT desirable when the frequency of the swimming becomes constant. The effect in fact can cause one to feel like they are on a rocking boat. For this reason alone it is nice to be able to add the Sub (or Vertical phase) to the Main (Horz. phase) thereby canceling out the swimming effect on the listener. This allows for easy reception and a single signal that fills the ears with a constant audio even as the phase shifts from one polarity to the other. In the AB - B mix mode the user can still ascertain which antenna the signal is coming from because even though the both phases are filling both ears, there is a slight leaning effect to the signal in the right ear when phasing to the Sub receiver. Diversity mode has NOTHING to do with being forced to listen to 2 signals in one ear or the other. In any case, if this is the effect you want, feel free to keep the mixer off. For others, like myself who may have a beverage antenna and a vertical set up, we would like not to have to feel like we're sitting on the high seas while listening to a signal. I completely understand why this other user in the group would request this feature. I was simply correcting Lyle that it was not available in the diversity mode as he suggested that it was. (or so it read) Again, this Mix mode option IS available for Sub mode only, but it has not been implemented in the Diversity mode yet. I'm only asking that the switch gets flipped to allow it to be turned on while in Diversity mode. Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 17:43:29 -0400 From: li...@subich.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... Making L-Mix-R function in diversity mode defeats the purpose of diversity mode. Placing EITHER receiver in both ears during diversity essentially disables diversity. I hate to be the one to say don't waste the programming time but this is another of those enhancements that is a complete waste of programmer time and does not make *ANY* practical sense. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/5/2010 4:41 PM, The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 13:15:53 -0700 From: k...@wavecable.com To: g0...@g0afh.com CC: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question Is there a way to get the audio from the sub receiver into both ears without external switching? Yes. See the firmware release notes and CONFIG:L-MIX-R 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you. Apparently you have not used diversity mode, or you haven't enjoyed it with an AB - BA (or AB- B) Mix mode on. I'm sorry, you're wrong. If you MIX the two audio sources instead of hearing them swim from ear to ear, you will hear them FADE out completely as the phase differences cause them to cancel. Swim is the mind's interpretation of the difference in phase and amplitude between the PATH taken by the two signals. What you accomplish by mixing is to undo all the benefits of diversity. You have simply moved the point of phase cancellation from the single antenna to the single headphone. You have gone to the great expense of building/buying/installing a second antenna and buying/installing a second, identical receiver so you can simply combine two non-coherent audio sources instead of two non-coherent RF sources. The only way one can mix the feeds from a diversity receive system is to provide a voting/switching system that evaluates the signal to noise ratio (in FM it's called quieting) and selects the better signal - not mixes the two. Again, this Mix mode option IS available for Sub mode only, but it has not been implemented in the Diversity mode yet. I'm only asking that the switch gets flipped to allow it to be turned on while in Diversity mode. Mixing is appropriate when one has two completely different signals. It is NOT appropriate when one has the same signal with a randomly varying phase and amplitude difference. With two independent signals there is no cancellation. Again, enabling L - MIX - R in diversity is to waste programming resources on something that is not only useless but will actually result in decreased performance. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/5/2010 7:34 PM, The Smiths wrote: I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you. Apparently you have not used diversity mode, or you haven't enjoyed it with an AB - BA (or AB- B) Mix mode on. The point behind diversity is NOT to have one antenna in one ear and another in the other.. The purpose of Diversity is to enable the user to hear a signal from TWO different sources (Main and Sub Receiver with Horz/Vertical antennas) at the same time. If you've ever used Diversity on a weak signal, or on a station that is phasing from Horz. to vertical polarization (as they do coming over the ocean all the time), then you would know that the signal SWIMS from your left ear to your right ear. This effect is NOT desirable when the frequency of the swimming becomes constant. The effect in fact can cause one to feel like they are on a rocking boat. For this reason alone it is nice to be able to add the Sub (or Vertical phase) to the Main (Horz. phase) thereby canceling out the swimming effect on the listener. This allows for easy reception and a single signal that fills the ears with a constant audio even as the phase shifts from one polarity to the other. In the AB - B mix mode the user can still ascertain which antenna the signal is coming from because even though the both phases are filling both ears, there is a slight leaning effect to the signal in the right ear when phasing to the Sub receiver. Diversity mode has NOTHING to do with being forced to listen to 2 signals in one ear or the other. In any case, if this is the effect you want, feel free to keep the mixer off. For others, like myself who may have a beverage antenna and a vertical set up, we would like not to have to feel like we're sitting on the high seas while listening to a signal. I completely understand why this other user in the group would request this feature. I was simply correcting Lyle that it was not available in the diversity mode as he suggested that it was. (or so it read) Again, this Mix mode option IS available for Sub mode only, but it has not been implemented in the Diversity mode yet. I'm only asking that the switch gets flipped to allow it to be turned on while in Diversity mode. Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 17:43:29 -0400 From: li...@subich.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... Making L-Mix-R function in diversity mode defeats the purpose of diversity mode. Placing EITHER receiver in both ears during diversity essentially disables diversity. I hate to be the one to say don't waste the programming time but this is another of those enhancements that is a complete waste of programmer time and does not make *ANY* practical sense. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/5/2010 4:41 PM, The Smiths wrote: Lyle, As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
I hesitate to jump in here, because there are some strong passions running -- but I'm quite confused about what the disagreements are in this thread. Isn't the whole point of diversity reception in the K3 that the receivers **are** synchronized to the same clock? And if you're in diversity, and want to listen to just one receiver, can't you make a macro to switch out to one receiver or the other? Or is the disagreement about something else entirely? Peter W0LLN __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you. Apparently you have not used diversity mode, or you haven't enjoyed it with an AB - BA (or AB- B) Mix mode on. I've been using stereo diversity and other forms of diversity receiving since around 1970 or so. After almost 40 years of using it, I can't imagine why anyone would want to mix one channel into both ears unless they didn't have the antenna spacing to actually produce true diversity. . The point behind diversity is NOT to have one antenna in one ear and another in the other.. The purpose of Diversity is to enable the user to hear a signal from TWO different sources (Main and Sub Receiver with Horz/Vertical antennas) at the same time. The phase continually rotates in the phase relationship from one antenna to another. The only exception to this is when the antenna are unable to provide diversity, and act like a single antenna. So if you have the proper configuartion to provide diversity, and you directly mix the signals, the result will always be something between no change at all to MORE fading and reduced S/N ratio. It will never be better without and equal or longer time being worse. If you've ever used Diversity on a weak signal, or on a station that is phasing from Horz. to vertical polarization (as they do coming over the ocean all the time), then you would know that the signal SWIMS from your left ear to your right ear. This effect is NOT desirable when the frequency of the swimming becomes constant. The effect in fact can cause one to feel like they are on a rocking boat. Your brain will probably get used to it, and eventually process it correctly. For this reason alone it is nice to be able to add the Sub (or Vertical phase) to the Main (Horz. phase) thereby canceling out the swimming effect on the listener. This allows for easy reception and a single signal that fills the ears with a constant audio even as the phase shifts from one polarity to the other. In the AB - B mix mode the user can still ascertain which antenna the signal is coming from because even though the both phases are filling both ears, there is a slight leaning effect to the signal in the right ear when phasing to the Sub receiver. If you add A to B in one ear, that channel will have reduced S/N and increased fading at least 50% of the time or more. The other channel, being just B, will be unaffected. Diversity mode has NOTHING to do with being forced to listen to 2 signals in one ear or the other. In any case, if this is the effect you want, feel free to keep the mixer off. For others, like myself who may have a beverage antenna and a vertical set up, we would like not to have to feel like we're sitting on the high seas while listening to a signal. I completely understand why this other user in the group would request this feature. I was simply correcting Lyle that it was not available in the diversity mode as he suggested that it was. (or so it read) Again, this Mix mode option IS available for Sub mode only, but it has not been implemented in the Diversity mode yet. I'm only asking that the switch gets flipped to allow it to be turned on while in Diversity mode. I have no opinion one way or another on programming requests, but I do know very well how diversity works and how the K3 works. The K3 has a stable phase relationship from channel to channel (main to sub) on any given frequency but the exact phase difference from main to sub changes as the frequency is varied. You can hear this if you mix both channels into mono and listen to background noise as you tune the VFO up and down the band. What you will hear is peaks and nulls in background noise as the phase rotates with the VFO setting. This is because you are changing the combined antenna array PATTERN as the VFO is moved up or down the band. If you directly mix two antennas with any significant spacing as processed through the main and sub into one channel, be it one ear or both ears, you absolutely will have a random changing antenna pattern as you tune the VFO. Since the K3 has no controlled way to vary channel to channel phase, we would have a random uncontrolled pattern null or nulls moving around in different directions as the VFO knob is rotated. Changing phase from channel to channel in the receiver is exactly like mixing the two antennas together before they get to the rig and varying the phase delay on one antenna prior to RF mixing. So when we mix A and B at audio is like adding a noise canceller and mixing two channels with a random spin of the knob. No difference at all. Noneand this is etched in stone. It is how phase meters like the old HP vector voltmeters work so it is a well-established process. The second issue is the arriving signals will have significant phase shift from antenna to antenna that changes over time if the antennas are far enough apart or enough different in polarization
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Peter, Let me try - If one listens to only one receiver in both ears, there is no diversity reception (one receiver cannot do diversity). If both receivers are mixed in any one headphone, the result will be cancellations in that headphone due to the varying effects from both receivers. The best way to use diversity reception is to hear one receiver in one ear and the other in the second ear, and let the brain do the deciphering. Lyle has provided a means to allow the mixing requested. Whether it will be beneficial to the person(s) requesting it or not remains to be seen. You may use Lyle's mixing parameters and see for yourself if you want. The K3 receivers are the same, but they each use their own synthesizer - that means they are not fully phased locked. The diversity comes from having two antennas that are physically separated, and perhaps have different polarizations. 73, Don W3FPR Peter Wollan wrote: I hesitate to jump in here, because there are some strong passions running -- but I'm quite confused about what the disagreements are in this thread. Isn't the whole point of diversity reception in the K3 that the receivers **are** synchronized to the same clock? And if you're in diversity, and want to listen to just one receiver, can't you make a macro to switch out to one receiver or the other? Or is the disagreement about something else entirely? Peter W0LLN __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
When I have phase shifting between the two antennas I don't have Phase shifting in my audio Left and right. In that I mean, if I look at the voltage on the o'scope I do not see the signal coming out of my head phones phasing from positive voltage to a negative voltage in the inverse between the two headphone outputs (L/R). Unlike AC where when one side swings negative, if you were to add the inverse you would cancel out the entire signal (as you guys keep saying is the case), this is not the case with the diversity reception here at my QTH (and no I don't live in the bermuda triangle). The phase is in the antenna reception.. Not the audio that we listen to. When my vertical is picking up a vertical phased signal it is very possible that my Horizontal antenna is not receiving any signal at all.. Therefore if I have Mix on so that the sub is placed in the Main's headphone I do not cancel out the audio in the both ears. I am simply adding AUDIO, not phase, to one side of my headphone or the other. There is no magic audio or Voltage that is swinging in a negative polarity in my headphones from an antenna that is not receiving an opposite polarity signal. If that were the case than I would just build an automatic audio phase reverser and listen to my horizontal antenna as the signal phased into a vertical polarity. I would never need diversity reception in the first place. I could just flip the phase of the audio input to the receiver when I stopped hearing the signal on my horizontal antenna assuming it was now phased in the vertical field. If you use Lyle's Utility based Mixer mode for Diversity (IE. Enter the code he gave you here on the reflector) you will hear that it keeps the signal stable as it travels from one antenna to the other. It doesn't cause the audio in both my headsets to cancel itself out. I've used it before (both with Lyle's code, and with another rigs, and mixing boards) and have NEVER had the canceling affect. I would urge you to at least try it and see for yourself before you continue to draw conclusions. Now, if this defies all principals of electronics and audio, then so be it.. but I can tell you with certainty that mixing the two antenna phases in one headset makes for BOTH signals to be heard at the same time. So once again, I completely disagree with your reasoning not to implement it. Sorry, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.. The code already exists, as you have already seen by the fact that Lyle has already writing it, and given you the knowledge how to turn it on. The only missing key here is Wayne, or Eric's adding it to the Config menu. Furthermore, there is no need to panic, if you don't want this feature on your rig, simply DON'T TURN IT ON.. This already exists for other modes, and if you haven't already figured out how to turn it on, than you needn't worry about it affecting your diversity mode reception as it already works. I believe this should conclude this Post as I (the person that started this portion of the discussion) has nothing further to add I beg you not to let this drag this subject on for days.. That's NOT what this reflector is about. Thank you. _ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
menu. Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 20:29:55 -0400 From: li...@subich.com To: notforc...@hotmail.com CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you. Apparently you have not used diversity mode, or you haven't enjoyed it with an AB - BA (or AB- B) Mix mode on. I'm sorry, you're wrong. If you MIX the two audio sources instead of hearing them swim from ear to ear, you will hear them FADE out completely as the phase differences cause them to cancel. Swim is the mind's interpretation of the difference in phase and amplitude between the PATH taken by the two signals. What you accomplish by mixing is to undo all the benefits of diversity. You have simply moved the point of phase cancellation from the single antenna to the single headphone. You have gone to the great expense of building/buying/installing a second antenna and buying/installing a second, identical receiver so you can simply combine two non-coherent audio sources instead of two non-coherent RF sources. The only way one can mix the feeds from a diversity receive system is to provide a voting/switching system that evaluates the signal to noise ratio (in FM it's called quieting) and selects the better signal - not mixes the two. Again, this Mix mode option IS available for Sub mode only, but it has not been implemented in the Diversity mode yet. I'm only asking that the switch gets flipped to allow it to be turned on while in Diversity mode. Mixing is appropriate when one has two completely different signals. It is NOT appropriate when one has the same signal with a randomly varying phase and amplitude difference. With two independent signals there is no cancellation. Again, enabling L - MIX - R in diversity is to waste programming resources on something that is not only useless but will actually result in decreased performance. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/5/2010 7:34 PM, The Smiths wrote: I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you. Apparently you have not used diversity mode, or you haven't enjoyed it with an AB - BA (or AB- B) Mix mode on. The point behind diversity is NOT to have one antenna in one ear and another in the other.. The purpose of Diversity is to enable the user to hear a signal from TWO different sources (Main and Sub Receiver with Horz/Vertical antennas) at the same time. If you've ever used Diversity on a weak signal, or on a station that is phasing from Horz. to vertical polarization (as they do coming over the ocean all the time), then you would know that the signal SWIMS from your left ear to your right ear. This effect is NOT desirable when the frequency of the swimming becomes constant. The effect in fact can cause one to feel like they are on a rocking boat. For this reason alone it is nice to be able to add the Sub (or Vertical phase) to the Main (Horz. phase) thereby canceling out the swimming effect on the listener. This allows for easy reception and a single signal that fills the ears with a constant audio even as the phase shifts from one polarity to the other. In the AB - B mix mode the user can still ascertain which antenna the signal is coming from because even though the both phases are filling both ears, there is a slight leaning effect to the signal in the right ear when phasing to the Sub receiver. Diversity mode has NOTHING to do with being forced to listen to 2 signals in one ear or the other. In any case, if this is the effect you want, feel free to keep the mixer off. For others, like myself who may have a beverage antenna and a vertical set up, we would like not to have to feel like we're sitting on the high seas while listening to a signal. I completely understand why this other user in the group would request this feature. I was simply correcting Lyle that it was not available in the diversity mode as he suggested that it was. (or so it read) Again, this Mix mode option IS available for Sub mode only, but it has not been implemented in the Diversity mode yet. I'm only asking that the switch gets flipped to allow it to be turned on while in Diversity mode. Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 17:43:29 -0400 From: li...@subich.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question As you know, this is NOT working in the Diversity mode as this person wants to use it. It is ONLY available with SUB mode at the time. Perhaps you can Stress to Wayne that he should finally make it available for use when in Diversity... Making L-Mix-R function in diversity mode defeats the purpose of diversity mode. Placing EITHER receiver in both ears during diversity essentially disables diversity. I hate to be the one to say don't waste the programming time but this is another of those enhancements that is a complete waste of programmer time and does not make *ANY* practical sense. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 7/5/2010 4:41 PM, The Smiths wrote
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio routing question
Okay Joe, Your point is very well taken.. I understand what you are saying very clearly. I have the scope, and I've set it to look at phase between the two channels. I guess I need to clarify something. When I'm in diversity mode I don't seem to have both signals on both antennas at the same time. This is where we are having a problem communicating. I'm not going to disagree with your theory that the signals WOULD cancel out the stereo imaging if I were to push one phase onto the other. I believe this is true, and I know it for fact. However, where I am having an issue is when my poor receiving Vertical antenna is NOT receiving a signal my Well receiving Horz antenna is, and then Some times reverse. I would like to be able to mix the main onto the sub, and the sub onto the main's earphone For me, the need for the audio mixer is not to crush the stereo XY, but more to let me receive while in diversity mode BOTH of my antennas at the same time, and let the mixer route my audio to both headsets so as I don't have to listen to it fall from one over another. Admittedly, I don't have the best diversity set up here at my QTH, so for me it's more important that I keep a constant signal in both ears rather than one at a time. Now, just for the sake of it, I would like you to tune to a signal that you are having the phasing sound with in diversity mode. Then, go to the utility and enter in !BEFF; in the terminal window. I would then like you to email me back and let me know that you didn't hear BOTH of your antennas at the same time, in both ears. I would be interested to know if you get NO signal at all from the same very station you were just listening to in both ears. Or even a reduced signal level. From my experience I've never had a signal cancel on me, I've only had it double in loudness. I'm sorry, I know this goes against what we both agree on when it comes to XY phase, but it's just the way it is. Do it for yourself and stop thinking theory.. Try reality. (I don't mean that as an insult, but rather a practical challenge.) Again, even if this was the worst idea, it's still not going to affect YOUR rig if you never turn it on. This isn't an argument.. I was merely backing up the reasoning that the other person made the request. So, other than your return email to me after you've completed my test, can we PLEASE end this thread? Were beating a dead horse. _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
