subject:"\[Elecraft\] NVIS HF vs VHF line\-of\-sight"

Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-05-01 Thread Jim Brown


Bob, W4/KP4Y said:


I agree with other gentleman that Jim can be very offensive in his responses 
sometimes.


I don't mean to be offensive, but there are times when it is appropriate 
to "tell it like it is." As Clay and others have noted, the new ham in 
question was repeatedly ignoring the excellent advice he was getting, 
perhaps because it was in conflict with his already formed opinions or 
the gaps in his knowledge.  IMO, as a genuine old fart, I felt that this 
new ham needed that attitude adjustment suggested by others. FWIW, some 
of the best advice I've ever received has been when folks have corrected 
my errors, whether of fact or of ways of looking at things.


Another long time and well respected list member sent this to that ham, 
with a copy to me:



Stan,

Your response is exactly why I stopped trying to help you early on.  
IMHO, Jim"s message was spot on.


I even considered asking for a phone number to call you and trying to 
help. Now, glad I didn't.


You have an attitude problem.


And another long time list member sent me this:

I agree, though it is clear that he’s not absorbing this stuff even 
when explained. Sigh.


Non-professional (unprofessional?) emergency planning often looks like 
this. A focus on rare scenarios that require extreme measures, when 
people should be taking first aid training, replacing their out of 
date Neosporin, and strapping their water heater to the wall.



73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-05-01 Thread Clay Autery

Well sir, we'll have to agree to disagree.  The young HAM (in HAM years
anyway) was not LISTENING to those from whom he had openly solicited
advice. 

He was informed of this, perhaps lightly chastised...  Now that he is
aware, he may choose whether to modify his behavior to be more
productive or not.

I would EXPECT my "Elmer" to do nothing less should he spot a
shortcoming in my conduct within the community.

Have a wonderful day.  Please make any additional responses via private
email.  Thanks!

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G

On 4/30/2017 5:05 PM, Robert Vargas-KP4Y via Elecraft wrote:
> Clay,
>
> Do have a horse in this race? I believe Mr. Brown can defend himself. I agree 
> with other gentleman that Jim can be very offensive in his responses 
> sometimes. That has been well documented in this forum and others. It's 
> against the spirit of ham radio and you are sanctioning that type of conduct 
> with your response.
>
> 73,
> Robert-W4/KP4Y
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 30, 2017, at 5:43 PM, Walter Underwood  wrote:
>>
>> The potential Cascadia earthquake could be 9.0. That means that every tower 
>> will fall, maybe even those built like this CHP/CalOES tower.
>>
>> http://www.oesnews.com/going-towering-heights-keep-emergency-communications-flowing/
>>  
>> 
>>
>> That is why I suggested easily erected wire antennas and small beams, like a 
>> 10m Moxon. After the big one, it will be Field Day, not “flip the switch on 
>> the linear”.
>>
>> Regular practice with field antennas will be more useful preparation than a 
>> big antenna farm. Maybe some regular exercises with a Par EndFedZ antenna, 
>> or even SOTA activations.
>>
>> http://www.lnrprecision.com/endfedz/ 
>>
>> More info on the potential Cascadia earthquake.
>>
>> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one 
>> 
>>
>> wunder
>> K6WRU
>> Walter Underwood
>> CM87wj
>> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>>
>>> On Apr 30, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz  wrote:
>>>
>>> I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being able to 
>>> work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any emergency plan.
>>>
>>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>>
 On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:

 Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters.  You'll find you can cover most of the 
 state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed into trees 
 or even an old fence line.
>>> ---
>>> Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
>>> (408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave
>>> www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, CA 95032
>>>
>>> __
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>>> Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-05-01 Thread KG7FYI

Hahahahaha. It stimulates the blood and gets what's left of the fire in 
the boiler stirred up.


On 05/01/2017 01:35 AM, Edward R Cole [via Elecraft] wrote:
> I'll probably get flamed with this comment (oh what the heck): 

Joking aside, all of the State and Federal agencies are preparing for a 
pretty grim scenario. Historically these events span from 40˚N to 50˚N 
with 40-45˚ N receiving the greatest impact. At the time this was first 
discovered they were estimating a 10% chance in the next 50 years. More 
recent research has upped it to over 50% with an estimated shaking 
interval of 15 to 20 minutes. The infrastructure, especially the schools 
in rural Oregon from I-5 west will all be flat. There will be no fuel or 
power available for many areas for up to two years. Grim indeed. One 
thing most agree with is that we are not prepared. The evidence is 
overwhelming. The geological record is clear. On January 26, 1700 it 
took out the west coast and hit Japan with a huge tsunami according to 
Japanese records. On average one of these puppies goes off every 350 
years + or -. I know it's all a lot of guess work too.

Ham is the only thing I think will be available for the short and long 
term. Obviously the first few days/weeks will be total chaos. I'm on the 
local ARES and volunteer fire dept Board. When I heard about this I did 
some homework and purchased a K3. It wasn't a hobby motive at all even 
though I can see that it would be great fun time allowing. I'm here to 
serve my community and willing to learn as time allows. I respect ham 
and I respect the rules. I am also a realist and like as many options as 
I can get my hands on. It's just the way I think. No doubt there will be 
many of you assisting if this thing goes down in the next short time. 
For that I am grateful.

My hope is that I will get a handle on this K3 line up to at least get a 
signal out when it is most needed. The club an ARES does regular sets 
and I participate whenever I can. I'll be the first to admit I am behind 
the 8 ball on this one. Have a look. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tys792xlNeI
73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>




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Stan KG7FYI
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-05-01 Thread KG7FYI

Thanks Joe, I do have two of the ARRL Antenna Books but wasn't familiar 
the other references. I'll be sure to look them up.

I'm currently using a multiband dipole that has really impressed me 
given it's poor location and setup. It's obvious I need an "antenna tool 
kit". That would be very helpful for what I need.

73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>


On 05/01/2017 05:54 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV-4 [via Elecraft] wrote:
> On 5/1/2017 12:17 AM, Stanley Petrowski wrote:
>  > Thanks again Don. I'm working on that.  I agree that this skill set is
>  > fast fading. One of the interesting aspects of the ham circles I am
>  > affiliated with is that we are all well over 65 and most beyond that.
>  > I have secured many hundreds of feet of good quality coax, spools of
>  > wire to build traps and more wire to use for building antennas.
>
> Building traps is probably a waste of time.  As I learned from old
> timers 40 years ago, your best emergency antennas will be:
>
> 1) 40 and 75 meter 1/4 wave sections of wire that can be clamped
> under the bottom of the mast/whip on your mobile antenna and
> pulled over  nearby tree or up a flagpole when parked.
>
> 2) two or three parallel dipoles for 75 and 40 meters (or 80, 75
> and 40 meters if you have digital/CW nets) that can be hauled
> up a flag pole, into a tree or up a 30 to 40 foot push up mast
> (with the necessary base and temporary guying) for longer term
> "portable" operations.
>
> With the advent of 60 meter allocations (particularly if the FCC
> gets off its ass and implements the most recent WARC decisions)
> you may want to consider adding 60 meters to your arsenal.
>
> It may be worthwhile having a pair of end-fed half wave (EFHW)
> antennas in your tool kit - one for 80/40 and one for 60/30.  Put
> insulators in the middle and at 30 feed from the feed end so they
> can be pulled up a flag pole, tree, or temporary mast as either
> an inverted V or inverted L.  With transceivers  like the K3 that
> have wide range tuners, the EFHW may be easier to store and deploy
> than the parallel dipole/inverted V and will provide the same
> NVIS performance as the traditional "maypole" installations.
>
> In any case,  I recommend the ARRL Antenna Book, ARRL's book on
> portable antennas, the ARRL series "ARRL's Wire Antenna Classics"
> (particularly N0SS's article "An Easy-up and easy to store Field
> Day Dipole"), and the ARRL series "ARRL Antenna Compendium"
> (Volumes 1-8).  If you *study* the Antenna Book, you will get a
> good understanding of the theory wile the Antenna Wire Classics
> and Antenna Compendium series will provide a wealth of practical
> ideas.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-05-01 Thread Edward R Cole


I'll probably get flamed with this comment (oh what the heck):

How many of you theorizing about a 9.0 Richter earthquake have 
actually experience one!  I not talking about 5 pr 6 or 7 an actual 9+


Why don't you ask an Alaskan Ham?  In 1964 south central Alaska 
experienced a 9.2 (2nd largest ever measured in history).  I was not 
up here then, but I know several people (some are hams) who lived 
thru that.  Plenty of documents with photos of the destruction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Alaska_earthquake

But not every telephone pole and tower failed.  Yes, all phone 
connection with lower-48 was interrupted for a long time.  Military 
lost all their comms.  Only one's able to provide communication to 
outside the state were hams!  That's right.  All documented.  Power 
and phones were impacted (there was no cell back then).  Undersea 
cables broke.  The single railroad line from Anchorage to Seward on 
the Kenai Peninsula was twisted and not repaired for something like 
6-mos, single highway south of Anchorage was also damaged for a long 
period.  Homes slid into the inlet, ships were sunk and shoreline 
destroyed by the tsunami which reached Oregon and California shores 
and Hawaii 3,000 miles south.  Seward and Valdez essentially suffered 
near total destruction.


But not everything was destroyed and not everyone without utilities.

Of course a significant factor is depth of the epicenter, longitudal 
distance from you and what geologic structures the waves travel thru.


I moved to the small town of Hope (AK) when I moved here in 1979.  I 
heard from locals how the land rippled with 30-foot high waves (I 
suspect maybe not that high but certainly terrifying).  Most of the 
original townsite which lay near the shore of Turnagain Arm sunk 
16-foot and the next high tide produced 6-foot of water above the 
ground level flooding every building.  Most are gone now.  Town has 
relocated further away from the shore.


Your skills setting up a temporary station with new antennas, 
equipment relocated, emergency power and fuel for that (gas stations 
will not be able to pump without power or may have cracked 
tanks).  Your personal shelter, food, water, and sanitary facilities 
may be all impacted.  If you are lucky some part of your home station 
may work.  Possibly only the mobile station in your vehicle.


I've been thru a few earthquakes in CA (1971 Sylmar 6mi from my apt) 
and AK.  But few really have that large effect that is being 
discussed, here.  I was here for the 7.9 quake centered in the Alaska 
Range (I'm about 300 miles south of where its epicenter was 
located.  Fortunately it mostly affected uninhabited areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Denali_earthquake
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/24/magnitude-7-1-earthquake-strikes-alaska.html 
I am 8 miles north of the homes that were destroyed last year.


But doubtful that you will have beach property in Boise.

73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-05-01 Thread KG7FYI

I took it down to 5 watts pronto before I started reconfig. Roger that 
on the dementia also. One step at a time. One day at a time. My sincere 
gratitude. I'll keep you posted.

73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>


On 04/30/2017 09:39 PM, Don Wilhelm [via Elecraft] wrote:
> Turn the power down while experimenting and you should not "blow the
> finals".
> 73,
> Don W3FPR 





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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Josh

I'd say ARRL Handbook, Antenna book and Operating Manual are a must in every 
ham's library. I got a set when first licensed in the '70s. Bought an updated 
set 25 years later. It's been 15 years and I just got a new handbook. Probably 
due for the new version antenna book. These are first rate reference material. 

My .02

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:31 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> Grerald,
> 
> I would suggest that everyone obtain the ARRL Antenna Handbook.
> Ignore the sections dealing with specifics, but study the sections dealing 
> with basic antennas and transmission lines.  Once you obtain a grasp of those 
> fundamentals, you can extend that to an understanding of all antennas.
> 
> There are many other sources, but for the basic information on antenna 
> fundamentals is essential to understanding all the other antenna 
> implementations.
> 
> Do not concentrate on the specific antennas, but study the antenna principles 
> on which all those specific antenna implementations are based.
> 
> Hams often concentrate on specific antenna designs and ignore the basic 
> principles on which those designs are based.  If you start with the 
> principles, then you can better understand the "wherefore and the why" of 
> those specific designs.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Don Wilhelm


Stan,

Turn the power down while experimenting and you should not "blow the 
finals".
I am 77 and still learning, so age is not an excuse.  It is never too 
late to learn.
Besides, it exercises the brain which is known to provide a hedge to 
dementia.
That is why I am still repairing Elecraft gear.  Each problem presents a 
unique challenge and keeps my brain active.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/1/2017 12:17 AM, Stanley Petrowski wrote:
Thanks again Don. I'm working on that.  I agree that this skill set is 
fast fading. One of the interesting aspects of the ham circles I am 
affiliated with is that we are all well over 65 and most beyond that.
I have secured many hundreds of feet of good quality coax, spools of 
wire to build traps and more wire to use for building antennas. In the 
end it is all part of a huge learning curve and skill set development. 
I devote what time I can to it all but confess there isn't a lot of 
time left. I am very impressed with what antenna tuners can do and 
sincerely hope I don't blow the finals on a stupid experiment.


73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>


On 04/30/2017 08:20 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
One important thing I forget to mention is that you should learn how 
to construct your own effective antennas.
To my mind, that skill may be critical in an emergency. and with the 
proliferation (and acceptance) of ready made manufactured antennas, I 
am afraid that skill is decreasing in ham radio circles.  Yes, it 
does take a bit of studying and experimenting, but is not really that 
difficult. If you can do simple multiplication and division, you can 
calculate the length of a halfwave antenna that can be used for 
effective communications - all it takes is some wire and a feedline.


73,
Don W3FPR 





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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Don Wilhelm


Grerald,

I would suggest that everyone obtain the ARRL Antenna Handbook.
Ignore the sections dealing with specifics, but study the sections 
dealing with basic antennas and transmission lines.  Once you obtain a 
grasp of those fundamentals, you can extend that to an understanding of 
all antennas.


There are many other sources, but for the basic information on antenna 
fundamentals is essential to understanding all the other antenna 
implementations.


Do not concentrate on the specific antennas, but study the antenna 
principles on which all those specific antenna implementations are based.


Hams often concentrate on specific antenna designs and ignore the basic 
principles on which those designs are based.  If you start with the 
principles, then you can better understand the "wherefore and the why" 
of those specific designs.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/1/2017 12:14 AM, Gerald Manthey wrote:

Don
I couldn't agree with you more I am guilty of this too. What books could you 
recommend I start with?
Thanks
Gerald KC6CNN



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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Stanley Petrowski

Thanks again Don. I'm working on that.  I agree that this skill set is 
fast fading. One of the interesting aspects of the ham circles I am 
affiliated with is that we are all well over 65 and most beyond that.
I have secured many hundreds of feet of good quality coax, spools of 
wire to build traps and more wire to use for building antennas. In the 
end it is all part of a huge learning curve and skill set development. I 
devote what time I can to it all but confess there isn't a lot of time 
left. I am very impressed with what antenna tuners can do and sincerely 
hope I don't blow the finals on a stupid experiment.


73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>


On 04/30/2017 08:20 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
One important thing I forget to mention is that you should learn how 
to construct your own effective antennas.
To my mind, that skill may be critical in an emergency. and with the 
proliferation (and acceptance) of ready made manufactured antennas, I 
am afraid that skill is decreasing in ham radio circles.  Yes, it does 
take a bit of studying and experimenting, but is not really that 
difficult. If you can do simple multiplication and division, you can 
calculate the length of a halfwave antenna that can be used for 
effective communications - all it takes is some wire and a feedline.


73,
Don W3FPR 


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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Gerald Manthey

Don 
I couldn't agree with you more I am guilty of this too. What books could you 
recommend I start with? 
Thanks 
Gerald KC6CNN 

> On Apr 30, 2017, at 10:20 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> One important thing I forget to mention is that you should learn how to 
> construct your own effective antennas.
> To my mind, that skill may be critical in an emergency. and with the 
> proliferation (and acceptance) of ready made manufactured antennas, I am 
> afraid that skill is decreasing in ham radio circles.  Yes, it does take a 
> bit of studying and experimenting, but is not really that difficult. If you 
> can do simple multiplication and division, you can calculate the length of a 
> halfwave antenna that can be used for effective communications - all it takes 
> is some wire and a feedline.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> -
> Stan,
> 
> While you have made your motives clear, if such an emergency does arise, just 
> powering up radios and transmitting can result in communications chaos.
> 
> I encourage you to get on the air not only to familiarize yourself with your 
> equipment, but also to experiment with a variety of antennas that can be 
> deployed easily - your home antennas will likely come down in such a disaster.
> 
> Get involved with local ECOM organizations, and if they do not exist for you, 
> form one.
> Ordered nets are the norm during emergencies, and someone has to act as net 
> control - to whom all traffic is directed.  Establish standard frequencies 
> and practice, practice, practice so that all participating know the format 
> and the rules of proper operating.
> 
> You might want to consider taking an example (and perhaps some guidance) from 
> the National Hurricane Net, which many of us are quite familiar with here on 
> the East coast.
> 
> In the event of a disaster in your area, you will likely be forced to use low 
> power to conserve battery power and depend on relays from individuals who can 
> run higher power outside the disaster area.
> 
> You may have to learn to setup and use digital modes as well as voice in 
> cooperation with your local and area Emergency Communications Center (ECO) 
> which coordinate Police, Fire, Rescue, Hospitals and other emergency services 
> during a disaster.
> That is all very organized communications.  If you are concerned about a 
> disaster, I recommend you become familiar with it and hold practice sessions 
> communicating with other concerned hams.  Many EOCs hold simulated emergency 
> drills that you might want to participate in.
> ARRL Radio Amateur Field Day is a good exercise in setting up a functional 
> station in a short order of time and operating on generators or other forms 
> of emergency power.
> 
> Communication of Health and Welfare information can occur on non-emergency 
> frequencies in the ham bands, but that still needs to be done in an orderly 
> fashion since those in the disaster area can be expected to be operating at 
> low power and depending on relays from outside the area.  There are formats 
> for messages that operators should observe so the message gets to the 
> intended recipient in an orderly fashion.  The ARRL information is quite 
> helpful for the formats and relay net operating procedures.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that the formats and operating procedures for 
> emergency communications is already in place, and you should become familiar 
> with them and practice with your own local group and/or participate in 
> national nets and exercises.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
>> On 4/30/2017 9:41 PM, KG7FYI wrote:
>> I'd like to say
>> that radio is a hobby but the fact is that my only motive was that lives
>> are at stake.  I'm learning.
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread KG7FYI

Well taken Don. The capacity to be mobile, versatile and functional is 
my primary goal. It all takes time and I am old. I'm doing my best for 
my small community.

73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>



On 04/30/2017 08:22 PM, Don Wilhelm [via Elecraft] wrote:
> One important thing I forget to mention is that you should learn how to
> construct your own effective antennas.
> To my mind, that skill may be critical in an emergency. and with the
> proliferation (and acceptance) of ready made manufactured antennas, I am
> afraid that skill is decreasing in ham radio circles.  Yes, it does take
> a bit of studying and experimenting, but is not really that difficult.
> If you can do simple multiplication and division, you can calculate the
> length of a halfwave antenna that can be used for effective
> communications - all it takes is some wire and a feedline.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR





-
Stan KG7FYI
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Don Wilhelm

One important thing I forget to mention is that you should learn how to 
construct your own effective antennas.
To my mind, that skill may be critical in an emergency. and with the 
proliferation (and acceptance) of ready made manufactured antennas, I am 
afraid that skill is decreasing in ham radio circles.  Yes, it does take 
a bit of studying and experimenting, but is not really that difficult. 
If you can do simple multiplication and division, you can calculate the 
length of a halfwave antenna that can be used for effective 
communications - all it takes is some wire and a feedline.


73,
Don W3FPR

-
Stan,

While you have made your motives clear, if such an emergency does arise, 
just powering up radios and transmitting can result in communications chaos.


I encourage you to get on the air not only to familiarize yourself with 
your equipment, but also to experiment with a variety of antennas that 
can be deployed easily - your home antennas will likely come down in 
such a disaster.


Get involved with local ECOM organizations, and if they do not exist for 
you, form one.
Ordered nets are the norm during emergencies, and someone has to act as 
net control - to whom all traffic is directed.  Establish standard 
frequencies and practice, practice, practice so that all participating 
know the format and the rules of proper operating.


You might want to consider taking an example (and perhaps some guidance) 
from the National Hurricane Net, which many of us are quite familiar 
with here on the East coast.


In the event of a disaster in your area, you will likely be forced to 
use low power to conserve battery power and depend on relays from 
individuals who can run higher power outside the disaster area.


You may have to learn to setup and use digital modes as well as voice in 
cooperation with your local and area Emergency Communications Center 
(ECO) which coordinate Police, Fire, Rescue, Hospitals and other 
emergency services during a disaster.
That is all very organized communications.  If you are concerned about a 
disaster, I recommend you become familiar with it and hold practice 
sessions communicating with other concerned hams.  Many EOCs hold 
simulated emergency drills that you might want to participate in.
ARRL Radio Amateur Field Day is a good exercise in setting up a 
functional station in a short order of time and operating on generators 
or other forms of emergency power.


Communication of Health and Welfare information can occur on 
non-emergency frequencies in the ham bands, but that still needs to be 
done in an orderly fashion since those in the disaster area can be 
expected to be operating at low power and depending on relays from 
outside the area.  There are formats for messages that operators should 
observe so the message gets to the intended recipient in an orderly 
fashion.  The ARRL information is quite helpful for the formats and 
relay net operating procedures.


What I am trying to say is that the formats and operating procedures for 
emergency communications is already in place, and you should become 
familiar with them and practice with your own local group and/or 
participate in national nets and exercises.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/30/2017 9:41 PM, KG7FYI wrote:
I'd like to say

that radio is a hobby but the fact is that my only motive was that lives
are at stake.  I'm learning.

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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Ken Talbott

Hazel left me with a downed Willow tree fort in Virginia for weeks until the 
adults arrived with saws to remove it.
Ken ke4rg

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Walter 
Underwood
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 6:36 PM
To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

I was at work during the Loma Prieta earthquake. Our HP building (now a Tesla 
building) on Deer Creek Road had hydrogen piping and  HF Waste  piping. That 
was fine, but a 4  main in the sprinkler system broke, soaking lab notebooks. I 
remember planning a route home to Mountain View that did not go under or over 
any bridges. I still had to deal with a water main break.

And then there was Hurricane Betsy when I was growing up in Baton Rouge. No 
phone for 7 days and no power for 10 days. The toppled red oak in the back yard 
was the best tree fort ever.

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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Don Wilhelm


Stan,

While you have made your motives clear, if such an emergency does arise, 
just powering up radios and transmitting can result in communications chaos.


I encourage you to get on the air not only to familiarize yourself with 
your equipment, but also to experiment with a variety of antennas that 
can be deployed easily - your home antennas will likely come down in 
such a disaster.


Get involved with local ECOM organizations, and if they do not exist for 
you, form one.
Ordered nets are the norm during emergencies, and someone has to act as 
net control - to whom all traffic is directed.  Establish standard 
frequencies and practice, practice, practice so that all participating 
know the format and the rules of proper operating.


You might want to consider taking an example (and perhaps some guidance) 
from the National Hurricane Net, which many of us are quite familiar 
with here on the East coast.


In the event of a disaster in your area, you will likely be forced to 
use low power to conserve battery power and depend on relays from 
individuals who can run higher power outside the disaster area.


You may have to learn to setup and use digital modes as well as voice in 
cooperation with your local and area Emergency Communications Center 
(ECO) which coordinate Police, Fire, Rescue, Hospitals and other 
emergency services during a disaster.
That is all very organized communications.  If you are concerned about a 
disaster, I recommend you become familiar with it and hold practice 
sessions communicating with other concerned hams.  Many EOCs hold 
simulated emergency drills that you might want to participate in.
ARRL Radio Amateur Field Day is a good exercise in setting up a 
functional station in a short order of time and operating on generators 
or other forms of emergency power.


Communication of Health and Welfare information can occur on 
non-emergency frequencies in the ham bands, but that still needs to be 
done in an orderly fashion since those in the disaster area can be 
expected to be operating at low power and depending on relays from 
outside the area.  There are formats for messages that operators should 
observe so the message gets to the intended recipient in an orderly 
fashion.  The ARRL information is quite helpful for the formats and 
relay net operating procedures.


What I am trying to say is that the formats and operating procedures for 
emergency communications is already in place, and you should become 
familiar with them and practice with your own local group and/or 
participate in national nets and exercises.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/30/2017 9:41 PM, KG7FYI wrote:
I'd like to say

that radio is a hobby but the fact is that my only motive was that lives
are at stake.  I'm learning.

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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Phil Kane

On 4/30/2017 7:03 PM, KG7FYI wrote:

> I am planning guy wires even on the standalone to help but as you note 
> when it starts all bets are off.

Are you a structural engineer?  Even my consulting engineering company
turns to those experts when doing stations that involve antenna tower
survivability.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread KG7FYI

I am planning guy wires even on the standalone to help but as you note 
when it starts all bets are off.
73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>


On 04/30/2017 06:23 PM, Phil Kane-2 [via Elecraft] wrote:
> On 4/30/2017 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>
> > I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being 
> able
> > to work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any 
> emergency plan.
>
> Radio Station KGO(AM)  in San Francisco has its transmitting plant
> (directional array with three self-supporting towers) not too far off
> the San Andreas Fault that shook in the 1989 Loma Prieta Earthquake.
> The top section of one of the towers folded down upon itself - and those
> were big strong towers.  The entire array was rebuilt.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon 





-
Stan KG7FYI
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread KG7FYI

Duly bookmarked. Thanks.

73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>


On 04/30/2017 12:01 PM, Jim Brown-10 [via Elecraft] wrote:
>
> http://k9yc.com/AntennaPlanning.pdf addresses this with a table and
> graphs. See Fig 36 and Table 1 on page 11.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC





-
Stan KG7FYI
--
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread KG7FYI

We're at 160% or normal precipitation this year in the Cascades. The 
ground everywhere is Jello. That said, the models are saying our area 
will be to the equivalent to 7.0+ if the subduction zones goes off as 
predicted.
Winter before last there were several million board feet of large 
Douglas Fur that blocked all of the roads for days as a result of a snow 
storm.
You nailed it regarding the bridges. We have steep canyons, granitic and 
serpentine geological conditions and too many bridges. I'd like to say 
that radio is a hobby but the fact is that my only motive was that lives 
are at stake.  I'm learning.

73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>


On 04/30/2017 03:28 PM, kev...@coho.net [via Elecraft] wrote:
> When we get that 9.0 quake many of my local roads will go away. The
> gravel logging roads carved into the side of the mountain will
> collapse.  They regularly do so during our torrential rain season.  A
> quake will just make it worse.  Plus the number of trees I'll have to
> cut between here and my mailbox will take at least a 5 gallon container
> of fuel.  Luckily the CB radios will still work so I can get the local
> loggers to carve me out.
>
> However, at that point I'll have to worry about all the bridges between
> here and there.  Only the smallest ones will have a chance of remaining
> passable.  I have charged deep cycle marine batteries and reels of spare
> antenna wire.  As long as I have a roof over my head I'll be able to
> communicate.  Even then I do have a tent to live in until civilization
> rights itself again.  The local grouse, rabbit, and deer population may
> take a hit though :)
>
>  GL in the big one,
>
>   Kevin.  KD5ONS





-
Stan KG7FYI
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread KG7FYI

I agree Kevin. The one advantage here in rural Oregon is that there's a 
modicum of adaptability in peoples lives that helps them get buy. We are 
out of power, phone and satellite internet frequently in the winter. It 
sounds very much like your situation in "Coho" country.

BTW, I've spent the better part of the last 12 years doing coho habitat 
restoration projects here in the boonies. Our run this year was down to 
three adults coming back in our watershed.

Thanks for the feedback.

73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>


On 04/30/2017 05:41 PM, kev...@coho.net [via Elecraft] wrote:
> One item which rarely makes it onto the ECOM check lists is fitness.
> How many folks are prepared to actually do all the work necessary after
> a major disaster.  The majority of folks would not be able to walk to
> the nearest shelter let alone help others.  We, as a nation, are
> woefully under-prepared for disasters.  The ECOM folks talk about it,
> plan for it, but don't train the public to be in better shape to handle
> any given disaster.  While I have taught many ECOM classes I am never
> allowed to say more than a few words about fitness.  I do it for rehab
> but it has helped me stay safe in the various unsafe times I have had up
> here in the wilderness.
>
>  73 & GL,
>
>  Kevin.  KD5ONS





-
Stan KG7FYI
--
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Phil Kane

On 4/30/2017 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:

> I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being able
> to work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any emergency plan.

Radio Station KGO(AM)  in San Francisco has its transmitting plant
(directional array with three self-supporting towers) not too far off
the San Andreas Fault that shook in the 1989 Loma Prieta Earthquake.
The top section of one of the towers folded down upon itself - and those
were big strong towers.  The entire array was rebuilt.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread KG7FYI

Yep, most excellent attribute. Our club does annual field trips just for 
that purpose. To be honest I was shocked what a long wire could do with 
the right equipment. I'll the first to admit I'm just getting my legs. 
That said, radio is a fantastic tool for my needs. I've never done it as 
a hobby and always have had it as a community help tool or basic 
communication tool. I lived off the grid up in Montana for a decade and 
found radio a great way to keep sane. I had an old Kenwood TS-140s back 
then and spent a lot of time listening. I didn't have a license so never 
TX but I would have if I had to. I'm not an anarchist and totally 
respect the rules but life and limb take precedent over the rules in my 
world. I'm not even tempted to do anything but get stick to the plan. 
Maybe its my old Vietnam days but every option should be available. My 
mind set is such that I'm putting guy wires up on my free standing 
antenna. It can't hurt can it? Thanks for making contact Bill.

73
Stan
KG7FYI
  -.-  --.  --...  ..-.  -.--  .. ><º>

On 04/30/2017 01:23 PM, Bill Frantz [via Elecraft] wrote:
> I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes.
> Being able to work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute
> for any emergency plan. 

-
Stan KG7FYI
--
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread kev...@coho.net

One item which rarely makes it onto the ECOM check lists is fitness.  
How many folks are prepared to actually do all the work necessary after 
a major disaster.  The majority of folks would not be able to walk to 
the nearest shelter let alone help others.  We, as a nation, are 
woefully under-prepared for disasters.  The ECOM folks talk about it, 
plan for it, but don't train the public to be in better shape to handle 
any given disaster.  While I have taught many ECOM classes I am never 
allowed to say more than a few words about fitness.  I do it for rehab 
but it has helped me stay safe in the various unsafe times I have had up 
here in the wilderness.


73 & GL,

Kevin.  KD5ONS


On 4/30/2017 5:05 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
The 1964 Alaska earthquake was a 9.2 centered SSE of Anchorage.  I was 
at Galena AFS at the time, on the Yukon River in the northern interior 
just south of the Arctic Circle. It's fairly flat up there and after 
we realized there was an earthquake, we could watch to the south and 
it appeared that there were ground waves moving rapidly toward us.  It 
ultimately broke off the wooden flag pole in front of the chow hall.


The WW2-era wooden hanger and control tower survived just fine, some 
bookcases toppled and spilled coffee was about all that happened.  The 
reinforced concrete alert hangars ... not so well. Much of the damage 
in Anchorage was the result of liquification of the ancient stream bed 
beneath it.


The effects of any given magnitude earthquake are almost completely 
determined by the conditions at any given place.  We had a couple of 
not-high dipoles and one of those humongous LP arrays for the MARS 
station.  ACS went down, our dipoles worked just fine.  That LP 
monster is basically a poorly optimized 3 element yagi on any given 
frequency and didn't work all that well.


Were I in the EMCOMM business and planning for a major widespread 
disaster situation, I'd focus on the physical aspects of the antennas 
... transportability, survivability, ease of deployment, weight, and 
the like.  The rest will be what it will be, and it will likely be 
enough ... at least until better can be arranged.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 4/30/2017 4:15 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:
Right, an NVIS antenna is effectively a Yagi pointed at the sky. So 
put a reflector on the dirt.


The Loma Prieta was a 6.9. The Cascadia area could produce a 9.0. 
Richter is a log10 scale, so that is 100X as strong.


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)



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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Fred Jensen

The 1964 Alaska earthquake was a 9.2 centered SSE of Anchorage.  I was 
at Galena AFS at the time, on the Yukon River in the northern interior 
just south of the Arctic Circle. It's fairly flat up there and after we 
realized there was an earthquake, we could watch to the south and it 
appeared that there were ground waves moving rapidly toward us.  It 
ultimately broke off the wooden flag pole in front of the chow hall.


The WW2-era wooden hanger and control tower survived just fine, some 
bookcases toppled and spilled coffee was about all that happened.  The 
reinforced concrete alert hangars ... not so well. Much of the damage in 
Anchorage was the result of liquification of the ancient stream bed 
beneath it.


The effects of any given magnitude earthquake are almost completely 
determined by the conditions at any given place.  We had a couple of 
not-high dipoles and one of those humongous LP arrays for the MARS 
station.  ACS went down, our dipoles worked just fine.  That LP monster 
is basically a poorly optimized 3 element yagi on any given frequency 
and didn't work all that well.


Were I in the EMCOMM business and planning for a major widespread 
disaster situation, I'd focus on the physical aspects of the antennas 
... transportability, survivability, ease of deployment, weight, and the 
like.  The rest will be what it will be, and it will likely be enough 
... at least until better can be arranged.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 4/30/2017 4:15 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:

Right, an NVIS antenna is effectively a Yagi pointed at the sky. So put a 
reflector on the dirt.

The Loma Prieta was a 6.9. The Cascadia area could produce a 9.0. Richter is a 
log10 scale, so that is 100X as strong.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)



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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Peter LaBissoniere

I better order a K3S quick as Elecraft will be toast.

Peter LaBissoniere
k...@wi.rr.com



> On Apr 30, 2017, at 5:36 PM, Walter Underwood  wrote:
> 
> I was at work during the Loma Prieta earthquake. Our HP building (now a Tesla 
> building) on Deer Creek Road had hydrogen piping and “HF Waste” piping. That 
> was fine, but a 4” main in the sprinkler system broke, soaking lab notebooks. 
> I remember planning a route home to Mountain View that did not go under or 
> over any bridges. I still had to deal with a water main break.
> 
> And then there was Hurricane Betsy when I was growing up in Baton Rouge. No 
> phone for 7 days and no power for 10 days. The toppled red oak in the back 
> yard was the best tree fort ever.
> 
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
> 
>> On Apr 30, 2017, at 3:26 PM, kev...@coho.net wrote:
>> 
>> When we get that 9.0 quake many of my local roads will go away. The gravel 
>> logging roads carved into the side of the mountain will collapse.  They 
>> regularly do so during our torrential rain season.  A quake will just make 
>> it worse.  Plus the number of trees I'll have to cut between here and my 
>> mailbox will take at least a 5 gallon container of fuel.  Luckily the CB 
>> radios will still work so I can get the local loggers to carve me out.
>> 
>> However, at that point I'll have to worry about all the bridges between here 
>> and there.  Only the smallest ones will have a chance of remaining passable. 
>>  I have charged deep cycle marine batteries and reels of spare antenna wire. 
>>  As long as I have a roof over my head I'll be able to communicate.  Even 
>> then I do have a tent to live in until civilization rights itself again.  
>> The local grouse, rabbit, and deer population may take a hit though :)
>> 
>>   GL in the big one,
>> 
>>Kevin.  KD5ONS
>> 
>> On 4/30/2017 2:43 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:
>>> The potential Cascadia earthquake could be 9.0. That means that every tower 
>>> will fall, maybe even those built like this CHP/CalOES tower.
>>> 
>>> http://www.oesnews.com/going-towering-heights-keep-emergency-communications-flowing/
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> That is why I suggested easily erected wire antennas and small beams, like 
>>> a 10m Moxon. After the big one, it will be Field Day, not “flip the switch 
>>> on the linear”.
>>> 
>>> Regular practice with field antennas will be more useful preparation than a 
>>> big antenna farm. Maybe some regular exercises with a Par EndFedZ antenna, 
>>> or even SOTA activations.
>>> 
>>> http://www.lnrprecision.com/endfedz/ 
>>> 
>>> More info on the potential Cascadia earthquake.
>>> 
>>> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> wunder
>>> K6WRU
>>> Walter Underwood
>>> CM87wj
>>> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>>> 
 On Apr 30, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz  wrote:
 
 I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being able 
 to work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any emergency plan.
 
 73 Bill AE6JV
 
 On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:
 
> Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters.  You'll find you can cover most of 
> the state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed into 
> trees or even an old fence line.
 ---
 Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
 (408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave
 www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, CA 95032
 
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>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Fred Jensen

FWIW:  When we moved here in 2015, I joined the W7RN crew and began to 
use the station remotely.  Very high Coefficient of Aerial Aluminum on 7 
or so towers, very low noise levels.  I had been checking into the 
NorCal traffic net on 80 and wanted to continue.  The main 80 meter 
antenna at W7RN is a near-full-size 3-el yagi at about 160 ft [~48 m].  
It fires flames at Mongolia very nicely, however the NorCal stations at 
80-150 mi [130-240 km] from me were around S5-S7.


Here at home, we are members of an HOA, everyone can fill in the blanks 
from that.  Just for grins, I installed an end-fed wire I got on-line on 
the wood fence.  It runs on electric fence insulators and is about 6 ft 
[1.8 m] high, with a 90 deg bend about 1/3 of the way down.  CA stations 
on 80 are 10 to 20 dB over S9 on it.  I have discovered that it actually 
works way better than I expected for NA contacts, and hits KH6 pretty 
well on 20. I make a lot of Q's with it in the Wednesday CWOps Tests 
when I manage to get on.  I won't make Honor Roll with it, but it is 
very surprising at 100 W from my K3.  I bought another and will use it 
into a tree from Pershing County NV in the 7QP next weekend.


Our fan dipoles in SE Asia were 20-30 ft high at most and worked just 
fine, even to the Philippines.  For emergency uses, I'd worry less about 
the mathematics of antenna radiation and attempting to precisely 
optimize it, and much more about ease of installation and survivability.


If it isn't buried and you can cram power into it [and Elecraft ATU's 
are very good at that], it will radiate.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 4/30/2017 3:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

Ground losses mount rapidly as a horizontal antenna is lowered closer to the
earth. So, while the pattern may show the main lobe straight up, the amount
of RF lost in the earth below increases.

EZNEC confirmed to me that about 0.2 wavelengths up is the optimum height
for the strongest vertical lobe (NVIS pattern). That fits with the fact that
0.2 wavelength spacing between the driven element and reflector of a Yagi
produces the maximum gain. Running a wire near the ground helps too, since
the earth is, at best, a poor dielectric instead of an efficient reflector.

Well supported towers have withstood some serious quakes, including our
land-mobile repeater towers in the Loma Prieta earthquake that broke the
S.F. Bay bridge and knocked down a good part of downtown Santa Cruz back in
the 80's.



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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Walter Underwood

Right, an NVIS antenna is effectively a Yagi pointed at the sky. So put a 
reflector on the dirt.

The Loma Prieta was a 6.9. The Cascadia area could produce a 9.0. Richter is a 
log10 scale, so that is 100X as strong. 

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Apr 30, 2017, at 3:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <r...@cobi.biz> wrote:
> 
> Ground losses mount rapidly as a horizontal antenna is lowered closer to the
> earth. So, while the pattern may show the main lobe straight up, the amount
> of RF lost in the earth below increases. 
> 
> EZNEC confirmed to me that about 0.2 wavelengths up is the optimum height
> for the strongest vertical lobe (NVIS pattern). That fits with the fact that
> 0.2 wavelength spacing between the driven element and reflector of a Yagi
> produces the maximum gain. Running a wire near the ground helps too, since
> the earth is, at best, a poor dielectric instead of an efficient reflector. 
> 
> Well supported towers have withstood some serious quakes, including our
> land-mobile repeater towers in the Loma Prieta earthquake that broke the
> S.F. Bay bridge and knocked down a good part of downtown Santa Cruz back in
> the 80's. 
> 
> However a tower, no matter how robust, is of little use if operations need
> to move elsewhere. They are darn clumsy to move by hand in an emergency. 
> 
> 73, Ron AC7AC
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
> kev...@coho.net
> Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 1:40 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB
> 
> I lose my antennas about once each year to straight line winds. Flying
> branches knock them down.  But if the wires are still intact I can run the
> nets with the lowered antennas.  Using less than optimal antennas works;
> just not as well as perfect antennas.  In an emergency I really don't care
> about perfect performance, I simply want to contact someone for assistance.
> By all means put up the best antenna you can just remember any antenna can
> make contacts.
> 
> Years ago I wrote some software to display antenna propagation patterns as a
> half wave dipole was lowered from 1 wavelength above ground until it was on
> the ground.  The results were pretty interesting.  By using the program I
> found many heights would work well depending on where I wanted to contact.
> At less than 1/10 wavelength above the ground the radiation patterns got
> rather odd but still worked for in-state comms.  
> Once I had modeled what was going to happen I tested it by dropping my
> antennas to different heights and tested comms.  Theory and practice
> correlated quite nicely.
> 
> Kevin.  KD5ONS
> 
> P. S. The application also modeled 1/4 wave verticals and loop antennas.  I
> never found the time to model the Yagi-Uda, the math got too hairy.  Using
> Euler's equation a few times got me through the three antenna types I was
> able to model.  Beating on the Bessel functions would have taken longer than
> the time I had allotted to me.
> 
>  K.
> 
> 
> On 4/30/2017 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>> I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being 
>> able to work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any 
>> emergency plan.
>> 
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>> 
>> On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:
>> 
>>> Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters. You'll find you can cover most of 
>>> the state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed 
>>> into trees or even an old fence line.
>> ---
>> Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
>> (408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave
>> www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, CA 95032
>> 
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email 
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
>> kev...@coho.net
>> 
> 
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Ron D'Eau Claire

Ground losses mount rapidly as a horizontal antenna is lowered closer to the
earth. So, while the pattern may show the main lobe straight up, the amount
of RF lost in the earth below increases. 

EZNEC confirmed to me that about 0.2 wavelengths up is the optimum height
for the strongest vertical lobe (NVIS pattern). That fits with the fact that
0.2 wavelength spacing between the driven element and reflector of a Yagi
produces the maximum gain. Running a wire near the ground helps too, since
the earth is, at best, a poor dielectric instead of an efficient reflector. 

Well supported towers have withstood some serious quakes, including our
land-mobile repeater towers in the Loma Prieta earthquake that broke the
S.F. Bay bridge and knocked down a good part of downtown Santa Cruz back in
the 80's. 

However a tower, no matter how robust, is of little use if operations need
to move elsewhere. They are darn clumsy to move by hand in an emergency. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
kev...@coho.net
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 1:40 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

I lose my antennas about once each year to straight line winds. Flying
branches knock them down.  But if the wires are still intact I can run the
nets with the lowered antennas.  Using less than optimal antennas works;
just not as well as perfect antennas.  In an emergency I really don't care
about perfect performance, I simply want to contact someone for assistance.
By all means put up the best antenna you can just remember any antenna can
make contacts.

Years ago I wrote some software to display antenna propagation patterns as a
half wave dipole was lowered from 1 wavelength above ground until it was on
the ground.  The results were pretty interesting.  By using the program I
found many heights would work well depending on where I wanted to contact.
At less than 1/10 wavelength above the ground the radiation patterns got
rather odd but still worked for in-state comms.  
Once I had modeled what was going to happen I tested it by dropping my
antennas to different heights and tested comms.  Theory and practice
correlated quite nicely.

 Kevin.  KD5ONS

P. S. The application also modeled 1/4 wave verticals and loop antennas.  I
never found the time to model the Yagi-Uda, the math got too hairy.  Using
Euler's equation a few times got me through the three antenna types I was
able to model.  Beating on the Bessel functions would have taken longer than
the time I had allotted to me.

  K.

On 4/30/2017 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being 
> able to work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any 
> emergency plan.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:
>
>> Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters. You'll find you can cover most of 
>> the state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed 
>> into trees or even an old fence line.
> ---
> Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
> (408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave
> www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, CA 95032
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email 
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
> kev...@coho.net
>

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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread Walter Underwood

I was at work during the Loma Prieta earthquake. Our HP building (now a Tesla 
building) on Deer Creek Road had hydrogen piping and “HF Waste” piping. That 
was fine, but a 4” main in the sprinkler system broke, soaking lab notebooks. I 
remember planning a route home to Mountain View that did not go under or over 
any bridges. I still had to deal with a water main break.

And then there was Hurricane Betsy when I was growing up in Baton Rouge. No 
phone for 7 days and no power for 10 days. The toppled red oak in the back yard 
was the best tree fort ever.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Apr 30, 2017, at 3:26 PM, kev...@coho.net wrote:
> 
> When we get that 9.0 quake many of my local roads will go away. The gravel 
> logging roads carved into the side of the mountain will collapse.  They 
> regularly do so during our torrential rain season.  A quake will just make it 
> worse.  Plus the number of trees I'll have to cut between here and my mailbox 
> will take at least a 5 gallon container of fuel.  Luckily the CB radios will 
> still work so I can get the local loggers to carve me out.
> 
> However, at that point I'll have to worry about all the bridges between here 
> and there.  Only the smallest ones will have a chance of remaining passable.  
> I have charged deep cycle marine batteries and reels of spare antenna wire.  
> As long as I have a roof over my head I'll be able to communicate.  Even then 
> I do have a tent to live in until civilization rights itself again.  The 
> local grouse, rabbit, and deer population may take a hit though :)
> 
>GL in the big one,
> 
> Kevin.  KD5ONS
> 
> On 4/30/2017 2:43 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:
>> The potential Cascadia earthquake could be 9.0. That means that every tower 
>> will fall, maybe even those built like this CHP/CalOES tower.
>> 
>> http://www.oesnews.com/going-towering-heights-keep-emergency-communications-flowing/
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> That is why I suggested easily erected wire antennas and small beams, like a 
>> 10m Moxon. After the big one, it will be Field Day, not “flip the switch on 
>> the linear”.
>> 
>> Regular practice with field antennas will be more useful preparation than a 
>> big antenna farm. Maybe some regular exercises with a Par EndFedZ antenna, 
>> or even SOTA activations.
>> 
>> http://www.lnrprecision.com/endfedz/ 
>> 
>> More info on the potential Cascadia earthquake.
>> 
>> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one 
>> 
>> 
>> wunder
>> K6WRU
>> Walter Underwood
>> CM87wj
>> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>> 
>>> On Apr 30, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being able to 
>>> work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any emergency plan.
>>> 
>>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>> 
>>> On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:
>>> 
 Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters.  You'll find you can cover most of the 
 state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed into trees 
 or even an old fence line.
>>> ---
>>> Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
>>> (408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave
>>> www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, CA 95032
>>> 
>>> __
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>> 
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org
>> __
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> 
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB in 9.0 quakes

2017-04-30 Thread kev...@coho.net

When we get that 9.0 quake many of my local roads will go away. The 
gravel logging roads carved into the side of the mountain will 
collapse.  They regularly do so during our torrential rain season.  A 
quake will just make it worse.  Plus the number of trees I'll have to 
cut between here and my mailbox will take at least a 5 gallon container 
of fuel.  Luckily the CB radios will still work so I can get the local 
loggers to carve me out.


However, at that point I'll have to worry about all the bridges between 
here and there.  Only the smallest ones will have a chance of remaining 
passable.  I have charged deep cycle marine batteries and reels of spare 
antenna wire.  As long as I have a roof over my head I'll be able to 
communicate.  Even then I do have a tent to live in until civilization 
rights itself again.  The local grouse, rabbit, and deer population may 
take a hit though :)


GL in the big one,

 Kevin.  KD5ONS

On 4/30/2017 2:43 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:

The potential Cascadia earthquake could be 9.0. That means that every tower 
will fall, maybe even those built like this CHP/CalOES tower.

http://www.oesnews.com/going-towering-heights-keep-emergency-communications-flowing/ 


That is why I suggested easily erected wire antennas and small beams, like a 
10m Moxon. After the big one, it will be Field Day, not “flip the switch on the 
linear”.

Regular practice with field antennas will be more useful preparation than a big 
antenna farm. Maybe some regular exercises with a Par EndFedZ antenna, or even 
SOTA activations.

http://www.lnrprecision.com/endfedz/ 

More info on the potential Cascadia earthquake.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)


On Apr 30, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz  wrote:

I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being able to 
work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any emergency plan.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:


Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters.  You'll find you can cover most of the 
state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed into trees or 
even an old fence line.

---
Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Robert Vargas-KP4Y via Elecraft

Clay,

Do have a horse in this race? I believe Mr. Brown can defend himself. I agree 
with other gentleman that Jim can be very offensive in his responses sometimes. 
That has been well documented in this forum and others. It's against the spirit 
of ham radio and you are sanctioning that type of conduct with your response.

73,
Robert-W4/KP4Y

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 30, 2017, at 5:43 PM, Walter Underwood  wrote:
> 
> The potential Cascadia earthquake could be 9.0. That means that every tower 
> will fall, maybe even those built like this CHP/CalOES tower.
> 
> http://www.oesnews.com/going-towering-heights-keep-emergency-communications-flowing/
>  
> 
> 
> That is why I suggested easily erected wire antennas and small beams, like a 
> 10m Moxon. After the big one, it will be Field Day, not “flip the switch on 
> the linear”.
> 
> Regular practice with field antennas will be more useful preparation than a 
> big antenna farm. Maybe some regular exercises with a Par EndFedZ antenna, or 
> even SOTA activations.
> 
> http://www.lnrprecision.com/endfedz/ 
> 
> More info on the potential Cascadia earthquake.
> 
> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one 
> 
> 
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
> 
>> On Apr 30, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz  wrote:
>> 
>> I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being able to 
>> work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any emergency plan.
>> 
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>> 
>>> On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters.  You'll find you can cover most of the 
>>> state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed into trees or 
>>> even an old fence line.
>> ---
>> Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
>> (408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave
>> www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, CA 95032
>> 
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Walter Underwood

The potential Cascadia earthquake could be 9.0. That means that every tower 
will fall, maybe even those built like this CHP/CalOES tower.

http://www.oesnews.com/going-towering-heights-keep-emergency-communications-flowing/
 


That is why I suggested easily erected wire antennas and small beams, like a 
10m Moxon. After the big one, it will be Field Day, not “flip the switch on the 
linear”.

Regular practice with field antennas will be more useful preparation than a big 
antenna farm. Maybe some regular exercises with a Par EndFedZ antenna, or even 
SOTA activations.

http://www.lnrprecision.com/endfedz/ 

More info on the potential Cascadia earthquake.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Apr 30, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz  wrote:
> 
> I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being able to 
> work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any emergency plan.
> 
> 73 Bill AE6JV
> 
> On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:
> 
>> Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters.  You'll find you can cover most of the 
>> state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed into trees or 
>> even an old fence line.
> ---
> Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
> (408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave
> www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, CA 95032
> 
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Carl Clawson

True dat. Once I accidentally worked Mexico on a dummy load from here in
the valley below Kevin's mountain in NW Oregon.

73 -- WS7L

On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 1:40 PM, kev...@coho.net  wrote:

> ... just remember any antenna can make contacts.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread kev...@coho.net

I lose my antennas about once each year to straight line winds. Flying 
branches knock them down.  But if the wires are still intact I can run 
the nets with the lowered antennas.  Using less than optimal antennas 
works; just not as well as perfect antennas.  In an emergency I really 
don't care about perfect performance, I simply want to contact someone 
for assistance.  By all means put up the best antenna you can just 
remember any antenna can make contacts.


Years ago I wrote some software to display antenna propagation patterns 
as a half wave dipole was lowered from 1 wavelength above ground until 
it was on the ground.  The results were pretty interesting.  By using 
the program I found many heights would work well depending on where I 
wanted to contact.  At less than 1/10 wavelength above the ground the 
radiation patterns got rather odd but still worked for in-state comms.  
Once I had modeled what was going to happen I tested it by dropping my 
antennas to different heights and tested comms.  Theory and practice 
correlated quite nicely.


Kevin.  KD5ONS

P. S. The application also modeled 1/4 wave verticals and loop 
antennas.  I never found the time to model the Yagi-Uda, the math got 
too hairy.  Using Euler's equation a few times got me through the three 
antenna types I was able to model.  Beating on the Bessel functions 
would have taken longer than the time I had allotted to me.


 K.


On 4/30/2017 1:22 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. Being 
able to work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute for any 
emergency plan.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:

Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters. You'll find you can cover most of 
the state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed 
into trees or even an old fence line.

---
Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Bill Frantz

I have always wondered how towers hold up during earthquakes. 
Being able to work with ad-hoc antennas seems a good attribute 
for any emergency plan.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/30/17 at 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:

Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters.  You'll find you can cover 
most of the state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad 
hoc - tossed into trees or even an old fence line.

---
Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | internet. I have DSL.| 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |  | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread Jim Brown


On Sun,4/30/2017 11:34 AM, kev...@coho.net wrote:
Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed into trees or even an old 
fence line.


There's a bit of fiction in the belief that antennas must be very low 
for NVIS. Fact is that higher is better, up to a quarter wave. The 
optimum height for a horizontal antenna for NVIS is a quarter wave 
length, and performance declines only slightly (1 dB) up to 3/8 
wavelength. High angle radiation for an antenna a quarter wave high is 
4dB stronger than for one at one-tenth wavelength high. Thus, optimum 
heights are 30 ft for 40M, 60 ft for 80M, and high angle radiation is 
only 1dB down for 45 ft on 40M and 90 ft on 80M.


http://k9yc.com/AntennaPlanning.pdf  addresses this with a table and 
graphs. See Fig 36 and Table 1 on page 11.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight & CB

2017-04-30 Thread kev...@coho.net

I live in Oregon's Northern Coast Range.  2 meters has the same problems 
up here as it does in the Southern regions.  Because most of the locals 
have CB radios it is how we communicate in an emergency.  The local 
repeaters are dead other than during net times or drive times.  If you 
really need help CB radio works much better than our amateur bands.  We 
also use it to avoid the many log trucks.


Please try NVIS on 40 or 80 meters.  You'll find you can cover most of 
the state with its use.  Plus the antennas can be ad hoc - tossed into 
trees or even an old fence line.


73 & GL,

Kevin.  KD5ONS


On 4/30/2017 8:30 AM, KG7FYI wrote:

Thanks Bill. Yes it is a very nice area. This is us
http://www.singingfalls.com

Right now the antenna plan is thus. :

Two towers spanning 380 feet. The foundations are poured and towers
staged. Working on refurbishing a used KT34XA to current '36XA specs. I
will have a 2M yagi pointed and our ARES relay tower and a 2M vertical
for general purposes to access other available bands. I will have a 11M
yagi up to communicate with unlicensed locals. Most folks have a cb base
out here. I've got a multiband dipole and a long wire to span the two
towers. ( I named the towers Sauron and Saruman :) )

73
Stan KG7FYI

On 04/30/2017 03:04 AM, Bill W4ZV [via Elecraft] wrote:

Hi Stan,

Responding to excerpts below:

 KG7FYI wrote
 Our very local scenario is filled with mountains and valleys. We
 are the
 land of “One Hundred Valleys”. Actually there are thousands of
 them! 2M
 is very spotty.

 Our ARES group requires go bags for all vehicles. Few people but a
 lot
 of livestock and gardens here.

 My only concern was availability of frequency bandwidth. We have a
 least
 two Extra Class licenses in the community and one MARS certified.
 Unfortunately they are many 15+ miles away deep in a valley.

Sounds like a beautiful area!  You probably know this but NVIS would
be a perfect solution for you.  40 meters would be the easiest NVIS
antenna (very low dipole) to implement.  "Military NVIS communications
mostly take place on 2-4 MHz at night and on 5-7 MHz during daylight."

Here's a link explaining:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_vertical_incidence_skywave

However this would require General Class licenses or higher for voice
modes.

73 and Good Luck!

Bill  W4ZV


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the
discussion below:
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To unsubscribe from K3 P3 and KAT500, click here
.
NAML







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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight

2017-04-30 Thread KG7FYI

P.S. I have my General Class license with my eye on Extra some time in 
the not too distant future.

s


On 04/30/2017 03:04 AM, Bill W4ZV [via Elecraft] wrote:
> Hi Stan,
>
> Responding to excerpts below:
>
> KG7FYI wrote
> Our very local scenario is filled with mountains and valleys. We
> are the
> land of “One Hundred Valleys”. Actually there are thousands of
> them! 2M
> is very spotty.
>
> Our ARES group requires go bags for all vehicles. Few people but a
> lot
> of livestock and gardens here.
>
> My only concern was availability of frequency bandwidth. We have a
> least
> two Extra Class licenses in the community and one MARS certified.
> Unfortunately they are many 15+ miles away deep in a valley.
>
> Sounds like a beautiful area!  You probably know this but NVIS would 
> be a perfect solution for you.  40 meters would be the easiest NVIS 
> antenna (very low dipole) to implement.  "Military NVIS communications 
> mostly take place on 2-4 MHz at night and on 5-7 MHz during daylight."
>
> Here's a link explaining:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_vertical_incidence_skywave
>
> However this would require General Class licenses or higher for voice 
> modes.
>
> 73 and Good Luck!
>
> Bill  W4ZV
>
> 
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the 
> discussion below:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-P3-and-KAT500-tp7629969p7630119.html 
>
> To unsubscribe from K3 P3 and KAT500, click here 
> .
> NAML 
> 
>  
>





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Stan KG7FYI
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Re: [Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight

2017-04-30 Thread KG7FYI

Thanks Bill. Yes it is a very nice area. This is us 
http://www.singingfalls.com

Right now the antenna plan is thus. :

Two towers spanning 380 feet. The foundations are poured and towers 
staged. Working on refurbishing a used KT34XA to current '36XA specs. I 
will have a 2M yagi pointed and our ARES relay tower and a 2M vertical 
for general purposes to access other available bands. I will have a 11M 
yagi up to communicate with unlicensed locals. Most folks have a cb base 
out here. I've got a multiband dipole and a long wire to span the two 
towers. ( I named the towers Sauron and Saruman :) )

73
Stan KG7FYI

On 04/30/2017 03:04 AM, Bill W4ZV [via Elecraft] wrote:
> Hi Stan,
>
> Responding to excerpts below:
>
> KG7FYI wrote
> Our very local scenario is filled with mountains and valleys. We
> are the
> land of “One Hundred Valleys”. Actually there are thousands of
> them! 2M
> is very spotty.
>
> Our ARES group requires go bags for all vehicles. Few people but a
> lot
> of livestock and gardens here.
>
> My only concern was availability of frequency bandwidth. We have a
> least
> two Extra Class licenses in the community and one MARS certified.
> Unfortunately they are many 15+ miles away deep in a valley.
>
> Sounds like a beautiful area!  You probably know this but NVIS would 
> be a perfect solution for you.  40 meters would be the easiest NVIS 
> antenna (very low dipole) to implement.  "Military NVIS communications 
> mostly take place on 2-4 MHz at night and on 5-7 MHz during daylight."
>
> Here's a link explaining:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_vertical_incidence_skywave
>
> However this would require General Class licenses or higher for voice 
> modes.
>
> 73 and Good Luck!
>
> Bill  W4ZV
>
> 
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the 
> discussion below:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-P3-and-KAT500-tp7629969p7630119.html 
>
> To unsubscribe from K3 P3 and KAT500, click here 
> .
> NAML 
> 
>  
>





-
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[Elecraft] NVIS HF vs VHF line-of-sight

2017-04-30 Thread Bill W4ZV

Hi Stan,

Responding to excerpts below:


KG7FYI wrote
> Our very local scenario is filled with mountains and valleys. We are the 
> land of “One Hundred Valleys”. Actually there are thousands of them! 2M 
> is very spotty. 
> 
> Our ARES group requires go bags for all vehicles. Few people but a lot 
> of livestock and gardens here.
> 
> My only concern was availability of frequency bandwidth. We have a least 
> two Extra Class licenses in the community and one MARS certified. 
> Unfortunately they are many 15+ miles away deep in a valley.

Sounds like a beautiful area!  You probably know this but NVIS would be a
perfect solution for you.  40 meters would be the easiest NVIS antenna (very
low dipole) to implement.  "Military NVIS communications mostly take place
on 2-4 MHz at night and on 5-7 MHz during daylight."

Here's a link explaining:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_vertical_incidence_skywave 

However this would require General Class licenses or higher for voice modes.

73 and Good Luck!

Bill  W4ZV



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