Re: [Elecraft] Ouch - An Update

2014-06-30 Thread mcduffie
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 20:40:45 -0600, Mike Lewis wrote:

> He removed the
> transformer, counted the turns, removed the old wire, found some new magnet
> wire of the proper gauge, rewound the toroid, and replaced both it and the
> straight through portion (which had gotten pretty hot from the proximity to
> the core.)

>From experience, I can tell you that it is likely that the toroid was ruined by
the heat.  Once you heat it, the value changes, permanently, even if you replace
the wire.  I cooked a few in antenna tuners back in the 80s, before I learned
the cause.

I'd recommend you order a replacement (probably not expensive) and replace it at
your earliest convenience.  Also check with Elecraft about what other parts you
should check.  Be sure to tell them what happened, so they can accurately
estimate what issues you could have caused.

Gary - AG0N
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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch - An Update

2014-06-30 Thread Robert Friess
Congrats Mike,

Bob, N6CM


On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Jim Brown 
wrote:

> On 6/30/2014 7:56 PM, Matt VK2RQ wrote:
>
>> I'd suggest to replace the toroid core, as the high temperatures to which
>> it was subjected may have altered the characteristics of the material.
>>
>
> Ferrite materials have to get pretty hot for that to happen. My guess is
> that the thermal mass might be large enough that the wire fried before that
> point. It might be worth asking Elecraft, but I'd take the approach that if
> it ain't broke, don't fix it. :)
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch - An Update

2014-06-30 Thread Jim Brown

On 6/30/2014 7:56 PM, Matt VK2RQ wrote:

I'd suggest to replace the toroid core, as the high temperatures to which it 
was subjected may have altered the characteristics of the material.


Ferrite materials have to get pretty hot for that to happen. My guess is 
that the thermal mass might be large enough that the wire fried before 
that point. It might be worth asking Elecraft, but I'd take the approach 
that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. :)


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch - An Update

2014-06-30 Thread Matt VK2RQ
I'd suggest to replace the toroid core, as the high temperatures to which it 
was subjected may have altered the characteristics of the material.

73,
Matt VK2RQ

> On 1 Jul 2014, at 12:40 pm, "Mike Lewis"  wrote:
> 
> So brought the K3 in to work this morning to our lab area where we have
> static benches, blowers, wrist straps etc. and opened it up. Sure enough,
> the T4 transformer was pretty crispy looking. My boss who is also an avid
> ham (dream job setup :) ) then sprang into action. He removed the
> transformer, counted the turns, removed the old wire, found some new magnet
> wire of the proper gauge, rewound the toroid, and replaced both it and the
> straight through portion (which had gotten pretty hot from the proximity to
> the core.) Prior to stripping the burned turns off of T4 we looked at it
> under a microscope and saw that the windings had burned open in one place,
> effectively acting as a fuse of sorts. There didn't seem tpo be any other
> parts, connectors, or board traces that looked to have been stressed. I
> brought the radio home and hooked it up to a dummy load and a reasonably
> accurate external wattmeter. It seems to be fine, both on receive and
> transmit. 
> 
> 
> 
> I was hoping there was a built in SWR bridge cal procedure, but I didn't see
> anything like that in the manual. The SWR values reported though seem to
> match the LP-100A I am using externally pretty closely. I did try to follow
> the Wattmeter calibration and ran into some confusion on the procedure as
> written in the manual. I think I was able to puzzle it all out except for
> one item - how do you change the config menu item from CONFIG:WTMR LP to
> CONFIG:WTMR HP? It doesn't seem to change just by having the tune power
> changed to 50 watts, so I am at a loss on how to change it.
> 
> 
> 
> So perhaps my K3 is now alright again, although I would appreciate any other
> comments on other things to check or calibrate. And thanks to all on the
> list who helped me out. After this the next project is to fuse the DC supply
> cables to my DC blocks with some rationally small value of fast blow fuse :)
> 
> 
> 
> de Mike/KE0MF
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch - An Update

2014-06-30 Thread Tony Estep
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 9:40 PM, Mike Lewis  wrote:

> My boss... then sprang into action. He removed the
> transformer, counted the turns, removed the old wire, found some new
> magnet wire.
>
==
Mike, you have the right job, or at least the right boss!

Tony KT0NY
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[Elecraft] Ouch - An Update

2014-06-30 Thread Mike Lewis
So brought the K3 in to work this morning to our lab area where we have
static benches, blowers, wrist straps etc. and opened it up. Sure enough,
the T4 transformer was pretty crispy looking. My boss who is also an avid
ham (dream job setup :) ) then sprang into action. He removed the
transformer, counted the turns, removed the old wire, found some new magnet
wire of the proper gauge, rewound the toroid, and replaced both it and the
straight through portion (which had gotten pretty hot from the proximity to
the core.) Prior to stripping the burned turns off of T4 we looked at it
under a microscope and saw that the windings had burned open in one place,
effectively acting as a fuse of sorts. There didn't seem tpo be any other
parts, connectors, or board traces that looked to have been stressed. I
brought the radio home and hooked it up to a dummy load and a reasonably
accurate external wattmeter. It seems to be fine, both on receive and
transmit. 

 

I was hoping there was a built in SWR bridge cal procedure, but I didn't see
anything like that in the manual. The SWR values reported though seem to
match the LP-100A I am using externally pretty closely. I did try to follow
the Wattmeter calibration and ran into some confusion on the procedure as
written in the manual. I think I was able to puzzle it all out except for
one item - how do you change the config menu item from CONFIG:WTMR LP to
CONFIG:WTMR HP? It doesn't seem to change just by having the tune power
changed to 50 watts, so I am at a loss on how to change it.

 

So perhaps my K3 is now alright again, although I would appreciate any other
comments on other things to check or calibrate. And thanks to all on the
list who helped me out. After this the next project is to fuse the DC supply
cables to my DC blocks with some rationally small value of fast blow fuse :)

 

de Mike/KE0MF

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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch

2014-06-30 Thread WILLIS COOKE via Elecraft
I did a similar thing with my TS-850.  It smoked a lot of relays in the antenna 
tuner.  I had them replaced, but have not powered it up since It was returned.
 
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart


On Sunday, June 29, 2014 10:24 PM, Mike Lewis  wrote:
 


So about 20 minutes prior to starting another successful Field Day with my
trusty K3 I powered it up for the first time after connecting everything had
just started some tests when my buddy starting yelling that I was letting
some of the magic smoke out of the radio. Sure enough, there was smoke
coming out of the back of the radio. I dived over and pulled the power. To
make a long story short, I was running an S9 31' vertical antenna base tuned
with an SG-231 autotuner, with the auto tuner powered over the coax using DC
blocks. The exact same config as I ran with last year with wonderful
results. Unfortunately this year in my excitement I carelessly installed the
DC block at the radio end BACKWARDS, sending the 13.8v from my 30 switched
supply right into the antenna jack. After the incident I powered back up
with my finger on the off switch to try to assess the level of damage. The
radio puts out some power, but the SWR is infinite even into a dummy load. I
am not sure of the status of the receiver input chain as I didn't want to
put it back onto a real antenna.



So I am just wondering before I open it up what kind of damage I might find
and what kind of options I might have for repair. Has anyone heard of this
sort of a bonehead mistake? Any ideas on what I might have fried? Given this
is a mechanical assembly only kit is there any chance any of the parts are
going to be user serviceable? I love the radio and I'm hoping it is at least
salvageable.



Thanks for any insights,

Mike/KE0MF

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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch

2014-06-30 Thread Don Wilhelm
I really was thinking of the main power connectors, but brain was sleep 
deprived after Field Day - However:


On the power source to the Bias Tee - of course!
If the bias tee was installed backwards in-line with the antenna, I 
would suggest that some thought be given to the gender of the connectors 
so it cannot be reversed.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/30/2014 1:36 AM, Michael Eberle wrote:


Anderson Power Poles on the antenna jack?

On 6/29/2014 11:19 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:



'Closing the barn door after the horse is gone' is not really 
helpful, but I would advocate the use of Anderson Power Pole 
connectors with fuses right at the power supply end of the power cord 
as prevention for the future.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/29/2014 11:23 PM, Mike Lewis wrote:

 Unfortunately this year in my excitement I carelessly installed the
DC block at the radio end BACKWARDS, sending the 13.8v from my 30 
switched

supply right into the antenna jack.


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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch

2014-06-29 Thread Scott Manthe

Evangelists often do not read the fine print...

Scott, N9AA

On 6/30/14, 1:55 AM, K8JHR wrote:
I am thinking Don did not catch the use of a "bias Tee" type DC 
injector in the story...


 JHR ===

On 6/30/2014 1:36 AM, Michael Eberle wrote:


Anderson Power Poles on the antenna jack?


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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch

2014-06-29 Thread K8JHR
I am thinking Don did not catch the use of a "bias Tee" type DC injector 
in the story...


 JHR ===

On 6/30/2014 1:36 AM, Michael Eberle wrote:


Anderson Power Poles on the antenna jack?







-


-
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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch

2014-06-29 Thread Michael Eberle


Anderson Power Poles on the antenna jack?

On 6/29/2014 11:19 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:



'Closing the barn door after the horse is gone' is not really helpful, 
but I would advocate the use of Anderson Power Pole connectors with 
fuses right at the power supply end of the power cord as prevention 
for the future.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/29/2014 11:23 PM, Mike Lewis wrote:

 Unfortunately this year in my excitement I carelessly installed the
DC block at the radio end BACKWARDS, sending the 13.8v from my 30 
switched

supply right into the antenna jack.


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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch

2014-06-29 Thread Don Wilhelm

Mike,

I am sorry to hear that you had such an incident.Unfortunately, you 
may not be alone in your woes.  Such events are not uncommon among Field 
Day reports.


The basic K3 is protected by a series reverse protection diode, and 
should be OK.  Unfortunately, there is not such protection for the KPA3 
because the added 0.3 volts drop of a diode rated at 20 amps is not 
practical.


I would expect that the damage is restricted to the KPA3, and may 
require replacement or major repair.  Contact customer support at 
k3supp...@elecraft.com to review your repair options.


There may also be damage to your SG-231 autotuner as well, but Elecraft 
customer support cannot help with that.  Try the K3 working into a 50 
ohm dummy load and see what the results might be. Elecraft can help with 
analysis of the damage for that part of your problem.


'Closing the barn door after the horse is gone' is not really helpful, 
but I would advocate the use of Anderson Power Pole connectors with 
fuses right at the power supply end of the power cord as prevention for 
the future.  Properly constructed APP connectors are 'genderless' and 
can help prevent such incidents.  I just returned from Field Day 
operation with 2 of my Elecraft rigs with no problems, but I use APP 
connectors on each piece of the 12 volt supply for all my gear.


One gentleman at the Field Day site used one of my power supplies to 
power his Omni, but he did not use APP connectors in his system.  I gave 
him the power supply (with APP connectors) and allowed him to change the 
connections to the power supply output at his own peril - fortuntely, 
there were no problems.
In my system, the power supply is fused within inches of the power 
supply end (both the positive and negative leads with fuses rated for 
the wire size used in the cable - see AWG tables) and all the rest plug 
into a Rigrunner or other distribution box with fuses rated for each 
branch.  The fuses should be sized for the smaller of the wire size in 
the power cable or for protection for the gear on the 'business end' of 
the power cable.  I fuse #12 power cable to a 100 watt class transceiver 
at 25 amps.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/29/2014 11:23 PM, Mike Lewis wrote:

So about 20 minutes prior to starting another successful Field Day with my
trusty K3 I powered it up for the first time after connecting everything had
just started some tests when my buddy starting yelling that I was letting
some of the magic smoke out of the radio. Sure enough, there was smoke
coming out of the back of the radio. I dived over and pulled the power. To
make a long story short, I was running an S9 31' vertical antenna base tuned
with an SG-231 autotuner, with the auto tuner powered over the coax using DC
blocks. The exact same config as I ran with last year with wonderful
results. Unfortunately this year in my excitement I carelessly installed the
DC block at the radio end BACKWARDS, sending the 13.8v from my 30 switched
supply right into the antenna jack. After the incident I powered back up
with my finger on the off switch to try to assess the level of damage. The
radio puts out some power, but the SWR is infinite even into a dummy load. I
am not sure of the status of the receiver input chain as I didn't want to
put it back onto a real antenna.




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Re: [Elecraft] Ouch

2014-06-29 Thread Robert Friess
Hi Mike,

Probably just smoked T4, the voltage sampling transformer in the SWR
bridge.  That's probably a simple repair.

73,
Bob, N6CM


On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 8:23 PM, Mike Lewis  wrote:

> So about 20 minutes prior to starting another successful Field Day with my
> trusty K3 I powered it up for the first time after connecting everything
> had
> just started some tests when my buddy starting yelling that I was letting
> some of the magic smoke out of the radio. Sure enough, there was smoke
> coming out of the back of the radio. I dived over and pulled the power. To
> make a long story short, I was running an S9 31' vertical antenna base
> tuned
> with an SG-231 autotuner, with the auto tuner powered over the coax using
> DC
> blocks. The exact same config as I ran with last year with wonderful
> results. Unfortunately this year in my excitement I carelessly installed
> the
> DC block at the radio end BACKWARDS, sending the 13.8v from my 30 switched
> supply right into the antenna jack. After the incident I powered back up
> with my finger on the off switch to try to assess the level of damage. The
> radio puts out some power, but the SWR is infinite even into a dummy load.
> I
> am not sure of the status of the receiver input chain as I didn't want to
> put it back onto a real antenna.
>
>
>
> So I am just wondering before I open it up what kind of damage I might find
> and what kind of options I might have for repair. Has anyone heard of this
> sort of a bonehead mistake? Any ideas on what I might have fried? Given
> this
> is a mechanical assembly only kit is there any chance any of the parts are
> going to be user serviceable? I love the radio and I'm hoping it is at
> least
> salvageable.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any insights,
>
> Mike/KE0MF
>
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[Elecraft] Ouch

2014-06-29 Thread Mike Lewis
So about 20 minutes prior to starting another successful Field Day with my
trusty K3 I powered it up for the first time after connecting everything had
just started some tests when my buddy starting yelling that I was letting
some of the magic smoke out of the radio. Sure enough, there was smoke
coming out of the back of the radio. I dived over and pulled the power. To
make a long story short, I was running an S9 31' vertical antenna base tuned
with an SG-231 autotuner, with the auto tuner powered over the coax using DC
blocks. The exact same config as I ran with last year with wonderful
results. Unfortunately this year in my excitement I carelessly installed the
DC block at the radio end BACKWARDS, sending the 13.8v from my 30 switched
supply right into the antenna jack. After the incident I powered back up
with my finger on the off switch to try to assess the level of damage. The
radio puts out some power, but the SWR is infinite even into a dummy load. I
am not sure of the status of the receiver input chain as I didn't want to
put it back onto a real antenna.

 

So I am just wondering before I open it up what kind of damage I might find
and what kind of options I might have for repair. Has anyone heard of this
sort of a bonehead mistake? Any ideas on what I might have fried? Given this
is a mechanical assembly only kit is there any chance any of the parts are
going to be user serviceable? I love the radio and I'm hoping it is at least
salvageable.

 

Thanks for any insights,

Mike/KE0MF

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