[Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
I just installed the first toroid, RFC14, in my K2 kit. After winding it, I sprayed it with conformal coating, and just before installing it I put a small dab of RTV3145 (non-corrosive) silicone seal on the end next to the PC board and then soldered it in place. So I turn the page in the manual and the very next thing in bold is Do not use adhesives or fixatives of any king to secure toroids to the PC board. Would this also apply to conformal coating? Should I remove RFC14 and take the RTV off it? Thanks, Ron VE8RT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
Ron, I suggest that you indeed do that. Actually on RFC14 it will likely make little difference because the exact inductance is not critical, but once the RTV hardens, you will have a bear of a time getting it off should it ever need replacement. Do not use any fixatives on any more of the K2 toroids. Many compounds will alter the inductance, and it is just not necessary. To emphasize that point, I often refer to the K2 that I built for an OTR truck driver. That K2 lived for years in the cab of his 18 wheeler, and never suffered any toroid damage - the toroids were adequately supported by their leads. More specifics, T5 (and sometimes, but not often, the inductors in the LPF) may need tweaking by adjusting the turns spacing. The use of any fixatives will prevent that, and require you to purchase new cores and rewind the toroids. Build the K2 as specified in the manual, and you will have no problems - if you add or subtract anything, it may not work correctly. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/2/2011 9:02 PM, R Thompson wrote: I just installed the first toroid, RFC14, in my K2 kit. After winding it, I sprayed it with conformal coating, and just before installing it I put a small dab of RTV3145 (non-corrosive) silicone seal on the end next to the PC board and then soldered it in place. So I turn the page in the manual and the very next thing in bold is Do not use adhesives or fixatives of any king to secure toroids to the PC board. Would this also apply to conformal coating? Should I remove RFC14 and take the RTV off it? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
Thanks Don, I've received a few helpful responses already, which I appreciate. I could do without the RTV, except I like it at RFC14 because its jammed into a tight space, and as you mentioned, its a RF choke which wouldn't be critical. For a very long time conformal coating has been used in my field, avionics. Its great stuff to reduce board corrosion in damp environments, even if its just from condensation. That is if its applied carefully and the board and adjustable components and contacts are well masked. If it won't mess things up, when its finished I'd like to apply conformal to parts of the board, especially the underside of the board. Back to the RTV on RFC14, there is a very small dab of it on the bottom of the core, just to keep it upright. Anymore than a small dab would be a waste. OK, future cores I'll leave alone unless the manual says otherwise. And conformal coating parts of the board can wait until I look into this further. I have spare cores and wire, and an reasonably good LCR meter at work, I'll see what difference the coating makes in the value of toroidal coil. Ron On 2-Jul-11, at 7:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Ron, I suggest that you indeed do that. Actually on RFC14 it will likely make little difference because the exact inductance is not critical, but once the RTV hardens, you will have a bear of a time getting it off should it ever need replacement. Do not use any fixatives on any more of the K2 toroids. Many compounds will alter the inductance, and it is just not necessary. To emphasize that point, I often refer to the K2 that I built for an OTR truck driver. That K2 lived for years in the cab of his 18 wheeler, and never suffered any toroid damage - the toroids were adequately supported by their leads. More specifics, T5 (and sometimes, but not often, the inductors in the LPF) may need tweaking by adjusting the turns spacing. The use of any fixatives will prevent that, and require you to purchase new cores and rewind the toroids. Build the K2 as specified in the manual, and you will have no problems - if you add or subtract anything, it may not work correctly. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/2/2011 9:02 PM, R Thompson wrote: I just installed the first toroid, RFC14, in my K2 kit. After winding it, I sprayed it with conformal coating, and just before installing it I put a small dab of RTV3145 (non-corrosive) silicone seal on the end next to the PC board and then soldered it in place. So I turn the page in the manual and the very next thing in bold is Do not use adhesives or fixatives of any king to secure toroids to the PC board. Would this also apply to conformal coating? Should I remove RFC14 and take the RTV off it? Ron VE8RT ve...@xplornet.com Yellowknife, NT, Canada 62 26.765N 114 22.503W Grid Square DP22tk Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as doves to their window? Is 60:8 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
Ron, Forget the LCR meter with the K2 kit - other than to evaluate the effects of various fixatives for toroids. Wind the toroids with the number of turns specified and all will be OK. As far as conformal coating, again, it makes repair or rework a pain - but if you insist ... What I can say is that I have worked on many K2s (over 600 to date), and some have been subjected to extreme environmental conditions (salt spray, high humidity, etc.), and on all of those, even though the exterior of the K2 shows signs of corrosion from that environment, all those I have seen look pristine on the surfaces of the boards. Based on that, I would discourage using any conformal coating, it is just not necessary unless you intend to dip your boards in salt water. I have no idea what problems may occur if you would use a conformal coating, other than that the coating must be worked through if any repairs or upgrades are needed in the future. When measuring with an LCR meter, be certain it is working at the frequency that the toroid will actually be used. Many LCR meters work at a low fixed frequency, and the results obtained from those meters can be misleading when the toroid is used at the frequency that it was designed for. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/2/2011 9:48 PM, Ron VE8RT wrote: Thanks Don, I've received a few helpful responses already, which I appreciate. I could do without the RTV, except I like it at RFC14 because its jammed into a tight space, and as you mentioned, its a RF choke which wouldn't be critical. For a very long time conformal coating has been used in my field, avionics. Its great stuff to reduce board corrosion in damp environments, even if its just from condensation. That is if its applied carefully and the board and adjustable components and contacts are well masked. If it won't mess things up, when its finished I'd like to apply conformal to parts of the board, especially the underside of the board. Back to the RTV on RFC14, there is a very small dab of it on the bottom of the core, just to keep it upright. Anymore than a small dab would be a waste. OK, future cores I'll leave alone unless the manual says otherwise. And conformal coating parts of the board can wait until I look into this further. I have spare cores and wire, and an reasonably good LCR meter at work, I'll see what difference the coating makes in the value of toroidal coil. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
Thanks Don, good point on the LCR meter, it measures values at 1KHz. The remaining coils are being installed as per the manual. I service avionics for living, the better gear has conformal coated boards. The coating is very thin, applied as an aerosol, and hasn't been a problem for repairs, a soldering iron will melt through it no problem. Older coatings, which were applied very thick, were a headache. Its hard not to want to use it, I've had my gear end up in puddle at Field Day after a gust of wind blew over the tent, tables, and all. First things first, I'll finish it as per the manual. The help here has been wonderful, and fast! Thanks everyone, and enjoy your long weekend! Ron VE8RT On Sat, 2011-07-02 at 22:14 -0400, Don Wilhelm wrote: Ron, Forget the LCR meter with the K2 kit - other than to evaluate the effects of various fixatives for toroids. Wind the toroids with the number of turns specified and all will be OK. As far as conformal coating, again, it makes repair or rework a pain - but if you insist ... What I can say is that I have worked on many K2s (over 600 to date), and some have been subjected to extreme environmental conditions (salt spray, high humidity, etc.), and on all of those, even though the exterior of the K2 shows signs of corrosion from that environment, all those I have seen look pristine on the surfaces of the boards. Based on that, I would discourage using any conformal coating, it is just not necessary unless you intend to dip your boards in salt water. I have no idea what problems may occur if you would use a conformal coating, other than that the coating must be worked through if any repairs or upgrades are needed in the future. When measuring with an LCR meter, be certain it is working at the frequency that the toroid will actually be used. Many LCR meters work at a low fixed frequency, and the results obtained from those meters can be misleading when the toroid is used at the frequency that it was designed for. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/2/2011 9:48 PM, Ron VE8RT wrote: Thanks Don, I've received a few helpful responses already, which I appreciate. I could do without the RTV, except I like it at RFC14 because its jammed into a tight space, and as you mentioned, its a RF choke which wouldn't be critical. For a very long time conformal coating has been used in my field, avionics. Its great stuff to reduce board corrosion in damp environments, even if its just from condensation. That is if its applied carefully and the board and adjustable components and contacts are well masked. If it won't mess things up, when its finished I'd like to apply conformal to parts of the board, especially the underside of the board. Back to the RTV on RFC14, there is a very small dab of it on the bottom of the core, just to keep it upright. Anymore than a small dab would be a waste. OK, future cores I'll leave alone unless the manual says otherwise. And conformal coating parts of the board can wait until I look into this further. I have spare cores and wire, and an reasonably good LCR meter at work, I'll see what difference the coating makes in the value of toroidal coil. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
Reminds me of a story that I heard years ago while on an assignment in England. Seems that the Rolls Royce company didn't have an automatic transmission in their cars. Since automatic transmissions were the up-and-coming thing they decided that they needed one to offer in the Roolls Royce. Rather than design one from scratch they surveyed the field and decided that the best of breed was one made by General Motors. They entered into an agreement with GM to use theirs. They took a GM automatic transmission into their shop and tore it down completely. They wanted any transmission that was going into a Rolls Royce to be top quality, inside and out. Everything passed muster except for one part. It had a rough surface. That just wouldn't do so they machined the surface to a Rolls Royce standard. The trouble was that when the transmission was assembled it wouldn't work. They contacted GM and found out that the surface in question had to be rough or the transmission wouldn't work. Best to trust the judgment of the design engineers. 72, Jim - W4BQP K2 #2268 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
Hi Jim, I've worked on aircraft for over 30 years and know what engineers can do :-) There are many airworthiness directives issued after the engineers have finished their work. I'd better not get something started, as I really do appreciate the work of the engineers. More field experience would help some of them. Ron VE8RT On Sat, 2011-07-02 at 22:47 -0400, Jim Campbell wrote: Reminds me of a story that I heard years ago while on an assignment in England. Seems that the Rolls Royce company didn't have an automatic transmission in their cars. Since automatic transmissions were the up-and-coming thing they decided that they needed one to offer in the Roolls Royce. Rather than design one from scratch they surveyed the field and decided that the best of breed was one made by General Motors. They entered into an agreement with GM to use theirs. They took a GM automatic transmission into their shop and tore it down completely. They wanted any transmission that was going into a Rolls Royce to be top quality, inside and out. Everything passed muster except for one part. It had a rough surface. That just wouldn't do so they machined the surface to a Rolls Royce standard. The trouble was that when the transmission was assembled it wouldn't work. They contacted GM and found out that the surface in question had to be rough or the transmission wouldn't work. Best to trust the judgment of the design engineers. 72, Jim - W4BQP K2 #2268 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
And you have found where a page break was inadvertently put in the wrong place. That caution about not securing the toroids belongs on the previous page. It will be moved. Thanks Ron IIRC from numerous threads asking the same question over the past decade, there is concern that *some* compounds can alter the inductance enough to have a deleterious effect on performance. Since (literally) thousands of K2's are out there, bouncing around in vehicles and otherwise being used in the field without any reports of a toroid breaking loose, it has always been recommended to simply leave them standing on their leads. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron VE8RT Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 6:48 PM To: d...@w3fpr.com Cc: Elecraft Subject: Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not? Thanks Don, I've received a few helpful responses already, which I appreciate. I could do without the RTV, except I like it at RFC14 because its jammed into a tight space, and as you mentioned, its a RF choke which wouldn't be critical. For a very long time conformal coating has been used in my field, avionics. Its great stuff to reduce board corrosion in damp environments, even if its just from condensation. That is if its applied carefully and the board and adjustable components and contacts are well masked. If it won't mess things up, when its finished I'd like to apply conformal to parts of the board, especially the underside of the board. Back to the RTV on RFC14, there is a very small dab of it on the bottom of the core, just to keep it upright. Anymore than a small dab would be a waste. OK, future cores I'll leave alone unless the manual says otherwise. And conformal coating parts of the board can wait until I look into this further. I have spare cores and wire, and an reasonably good LCR meter at work, I'll see what difference the coating makes in the value of toroidal coil. Ron On 2-Jul-11, at 7:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Ron, I suggest that you indeed do that. Actually on RFC14 it will likely make little difference because the exact inductance is not critical, but once the RTV hardens, you will have a bear of a time getting it off should it ever need replacement. Do not use any fixatives on any more of the K2 toroids. Many compounds will alter the inductance, and it is just not necessary. To emphasize that point, I often refer to the K2 that I built for an OTR truck driver. That K2 lived for years in the cab of his 18 wheeler, and never suffered any toroid damage - the toroids were adequately supported by their leads. More specifics, T5 (and sometimes, but not often, the inductors in the LPF) may need tweaking by adjusting the turns spacing. The use of any fixatives will prevent that, and require you to purchase new cores and rewind the toroids. Build the K2 as specified in the manual, and you will have no problems - if you add or subtract anything, it may not work correctly. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/2/2011 9:02 PM, R Thompson wrote: I just installed the first toroid, RFC14, in my K2 kit. After winding it, I sprayed it with conformal coating, and just before installing it I put a small dab of RTV3145 (non-corrosive) silicone seal on the end next to the PC board and then soldered it in place. So I turn the page in the manual and the very next thing in bold is Do not use adhesives or fixatives of any king to secure toroids to the PC board. Would this also apply to conformal coating? Should I remove RFC14 and take the RTV off it? Ron VE8RT ve...@xplornet.com Yellowknife, NT, Canada 62 26.765N 114 22.503W Grid Square DP22tk Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as doves to their window? Is 60:8 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
And then there's the Armstrong approach to engineering exhibited in the American Packard V12 of the 1930's.The big V12 engine had so much torque one could leave the transmission in high gear and start from a dead stop with no strain. Many owners never shifted gears. I do second-guess engineers at times, but when I do and modify their design I give up all excuse to go back to the designer to find out why the product doesn't work as advertised. So one of the first questions I have when contemplating an 'improvement' is, Do I have the means to determine the impact of my change? Ron AC7AC -Original Message- Reminds me of a story that I heard years ago while on an assignment in England. Seems that the Rolls Royce company didn't have an automatic transmission in their cars. Since automatic transmissions were the up-and-coming thing they decided that they needed one to offer in the Roolls Royce. Rather than design one from scratch they surveyed the field and decided that the best of breed was one made by General Motors. They entered into an agreement with GM to use theirs. They took a GM automatic transmission into their shop and tore it down completely. They wanted any transmission that was going into a Rolls Royce to be top quality, inside and out. Everything passed muster except for one part. It had a rough surface. That just wouldn't do so they machined the surface to a Rolls Royce standard. The trouble was that when the transmission was assembled it wouldn't work. They contacted GM and found out that the surface in question had to be rough or the transmission wouldn't work. Best to trust the judgment of the design engineers. 72, Jim - W4BQP K2 #2268 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
U don't need all those adhesive for all toroids. 73 Johnny Sent from my iPhone 4 R Thompson ve...@xplornet.com 於 2011年7月3日 上午9:02 寫道： I just installed the first toroid, RFC14, in my K2 kit. After winding it, I sprayed it with conformal coating, and just before installing it I put a small dab of RTV3145 (non-corrosive) silicone seal on the end next to the PC board and then soldered it in place. So I turn the page in the manual and the very next thing in bold is Do not use adhesives or fixatives of any king to secure toroids to the PC board. Would this also apply to conformal coating? Should I remove RFC14 and take the RTV off it? Thanks, Ron VE8RT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
Hi Jim Good story! I think that was a few years ago. Rolls-Royce acquired a license to produce the HydraMatic in 1952! I remember 1952 well, as that was the year we got our first TV, The last ones on the block to do so. 73, Rick Dettinger K7MW Reminds me of a story that I heard years ago while on an assignment in England. Seems that the Rolls Royce company didn't have an automatic transmission in their cars. Since automatic transmissions were the up-and-coming thing they decided that they needed one to offer in the Roolls Royce. Rather than design one from scratch they surveyed the field and decided that the best of breed was one made by General Motors. They entered into an agreement with GM to use theirs. They took a GM automatic transmission into their shop and tore it down completely. They wanted any transmission that was going into a Rolls Royce to be top quality, inside and out. Everything passed muster except for one part. It had a rough surface. That just wouldn't do so they machined the surface to a Rolls Royce standard. The trouble was that when the transmission was assembled it wouldn't work. They contacted GM and found out that the surface in question had to be rough or the transmission wouldn't work. Best to trust the judgment of the design engineers. 72, Jim - W4BQP K2 #2268 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] securing toroids in K2, why not?
Ron, Not diminishing your field experience, but speaking only from my experience with the K2 ... Consider in the case of the K2, the engineer's decisions have been scrubbed by first the Field Testers - ranging from experienced builders (including other engineers) to those who are building a kit for the first time - plus 12 years of positive customer experience. That covers a LOT of field experience. I have been with the K2 experience for 12 years now (yes, I am an electrical engineer and understand the design), and have found that the design decisions of the K2 designers have been correct for the most part. Any minor problems have been worked out between the designers and the testers and customers. The K2 is a mature product, and all the bugs have been worked out - I challenge you to find a new one (but if you do, it will be definitely addressed). The K2 designer(s) have had a goodly share of field experience themselves, plus a lot of prior successful transceiver designs. Wayne Burdick designed the Wilderness Sierra and several other successful transceivers before embarking on the K2 journey. Transceivers that are still held in high esteem many years later. I am quite familiar with the pride of the designer syndrome, having spent 14 years of my professional career evaluating products prior to announcement for a large corporation. My task was to assure that the product met its specifications, and was achieved through extensive testing under extreme conditions. Many products did not make the grade, but others were modified as a result of the efforts of my test team in order to provide the customer with a product that worked as specified. In other words, I am well experienced in evaluating product designs as well as creating test procedures to verify and support the product. I can say that the K2 meets its specifications without embellishment. Again, there is no need to apply any fixatives to the K2 (or K1 or KX1) toroids, If you prefer conformal coating, so be it, but understand that it is at your own peril - some techniques could void your warranty. The instructions to produce a working K2 are in the manual. Follow them, and do not add or subtract anything, and you will be rewarded with a very good transceiver - 12 years of experience by both testers and customers is behind your efforts, and it is all documented in the manual. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/2/2011 11:12 PM, R Thompson wrote: Hi Jim, I've worked on aircraft for over 30 years and know what engineers can do :-) There are many airworthiness directives issued after the engineers have finished their work. I'd better not get something started, as I really do appreciate the work of the engineers. More field experience would help some of them. Ron VE8RT On Sat, 2011-07-02 at 22:47 -0400, Jim Campbell wrote: Reminds me of a story that I heard years ago while on an assignment in England. Seems that the Rolls Royce company didn't have an automatic transmission in their cars. Since automatic transmissions were the up-and-coming thing they decided that they needed one to offer in the Roolls Royce. Rather than design one from scratch they surveyed the field and decided that the best of breed was one made by General Motors. They entered into an agreement with GM to use theirs. They took a GM automatic transmission into their shop and tore it down completely. They wanted any transmission that was going into a Rolls Royce to be top quality, inside and out. Everything passed muster except for one part. It had a rough surface. That just wouldn't do so they machined the surface to a Rolls Royce standard. The trouble was that when the transmission was assembled it wouldn't work. They contacted GM and found out that the surface in question had to be rough or the transmission wouldn't work. Best to trust the judgment of the design engineers. 72, Jim - W4BQP K2 #2268 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
