Re: [Elecraft] Re K3 Audio

2018-03-31 Thread Nr4c 
Don’t forget that rear Mic is not same as Lin In!

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 31, 2018, at 8:14 AM, Richard Ferch  wrote:
> 
> I suspect that what you most likely need is for Line In to be used during
> digital mode operation (with the microphone muted), and the microphone to
> be used during voice mode operation.
> 
> The audio input settings for voice modes and digital modes are stored
> independently, so this is easy. With the radio in SSB, you set MIC SEL to
> wherever your microphone is plugged in, with the appropriate bias and level
> settings. With the radio in DATA A or AFSK A mode, set MIC SEL to LINE IN
> and adjust the Mic gain control to get the required 4-5 bars of ALC meter
> reading in digital modes.
> 
> The only reason you might need MIC+LIN to be set to ON is if you were using
> the computer sound card as a digital voice keyer in voice modes, in which
> case you might want both microphone and line in to be active while
> operating in voice modes. In this case, set MIC+LIN to ON with the radio in
> SSB, and OFF with the radio in DATA A or AFSK A.
> 
> In both cases, you will only need to set this up once; the settings are
> remembered independently in the two modes from then on.
> 
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
> 
> W7HSG wrote:
> 
> Does any one know the command for both Mike in Front Panel and Line in rear
> panel?
> 
> I need both at the same time,  Mike for voice and Line in for digital.
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Re: [Elecraft] Re K3 Audio

2018-03-31 Thread Richard Ferch 
I suspect that what you most likely need is for Line In to be used during
digital mode operation (with the microphone muted), and the microphone to
be used during voice mode operation.

The audio input settings for voice modes and digital modes are stored
independently, so this is easy. With the radio in SSB, you set MIC SEL to
wherever your microphone is plugged in, with the appropriate bias and level
settings. With the radio in DATA A or AFSK A mode, set MIC SEL to LINE IN
and adjust the Mic gain control to get the required 4-5 bars of ALC meter
reading in digital modes.

The only reason you might need MIC+LIN to be set to ON is if you were using
the computer sound card as a digital voice keyer in voice modes, in which
case you might want both microphone and line in to be active while
operating in voice modes. In this case, set MIC+LIN to ON with the radio in
SSB, and OFF with the radio in DATA A or AFSK A.

In both cases, you will only need to set this up once; the settings are
remembered independently in the two modes from then on.

73,
Rich VE3KI

W7HSG wrote:

Does any one know the command for both Mike in Front Panel and Line in rear
panel?

I need both at the same time,  Mike for voice and Line in for digital.
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Re: [Elecraft] Re K3 Audio

2018-03-30 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 


> I need both at the same time,  Mike for voice and Line in for digital.

This is absolutely a terrible idea. I doubt that your shack is silent
while working data modes and any noise - you talking, someone else
yelling at your, a TV/radio/computer running in the background, or even
fan noise will be picked up by the open mic.

That said ...

Does any one know the command for both Mike in Front Panel and Line 
in rear panel?

Assuming you will be using USB *with CMP set to zero*, set MENU:MIC SEL
as needed for your mic and MENU:MIC+LIN = ON.

Note: you will first need to set MENU:MIC SEL=LINE and adjust the mic
gain/sound card output for four to five bars of ALC.  This sets the Line
IN gain.  Then switch to MENU:MIC SEL as needed for your mic (FP.h or
FP.L) and again adjust the mic gain for ALC peaking between 5 to 7 bars.
Now you can select MENU:MIC+LINE and set it to ON to enable both inputs.
Adjusting the mic gain with MENU:MIC+LINE = ON will adjust *ONLY* the
mic gain for the *MICROPHONE* input, in order to change the Line In
(digital) level, you will need to adjust the sound card output *or*
change MENU:MIC SEL to LINE before adjusting the mic gain.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 2:09 PM, Ralph S. Turk wrote:

Does any one know the command for both Mike in Front Panel and Line in rear 
panel?

I need both at the same time,  Mike for voice and Line in for digital.


Ralph, W7HSG/AFA9RT
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Re: [Elecraft] Re K3 Audio

2018-03-30 Thread GRANT YOUNGMAN 
Look at the latest K3/K3S manual on the Elecraft website, page 55.  The menu 
settings you need are “MIC SEL” and “MIC+LIN”.  They interact with each other.


> 
>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:09 PM, Ralph S. Turk  wrote:
>> 
>> Does any one know the command for both Mike in Front Panel and Line in rear 
>> panel?
>> 
>> I need both at the same time,  Mike for voice and Line in for digital.
>> 
>> 
>> Ralph, W7HSG/AFA9RT
>> __

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342



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Re: [Elecraft] Re K3 Audio

2018-03-30 Thread Nr4c 
LIN IN and LIN OUT are both on the rear panel. No use mic for this. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 30, 2018, at 2:09 PM, Ralph S. Turk  wrote:
> 
> Does any one know the command for both Mike in Front Panel and Line in rear 
> panel?
> 
> I need both at the same time,  Mike for voice and Line in for digital.
> 
> 
> Ralph, W7HSG/AFA9RT
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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-08 Thread Andrew Forrest 

Alexandr Kobranov made an interesting post showing a spurious response
in the line out audio

   I just made two basic samples using K3 and TS-850 using Firebox
   external soundcard and Winrad SW.

   You can see screenshot from K3 line-out audio on

   http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_firebox_winrad.jpg

   This is K3 with 400Hz roofing filter on some stable carrier.
   LINE OUT setting on level 9. 


Looking at the plot the spurious cannot be harmonics because the
frequency scale of the ghost response is the same as that of the normal
response. It is not doubled or tripled as would be the case with
harmonics. I posted similar results in March which I noticed using PSK
on a computer. Quoting myself:

   The second thing I am
   noticing is ghosts in the waterfall display of MixW. I assumed that I
   was driving the audio card too hard and getting harmonics, but this is
   not the case. The ghost signals do move faster across the waterfall
   than
   the tuning rate implying harmonics but I can decode the ghosts, so the
   bandwidth of the ghost signals has not changed which it would do with a
   harmonic. Ghosts are about 20-30db down on the correct signals

It appears that this effect is nothing to do with clipping or
transformer saturation but some kind of mixing. On the positive side I
have not manged to make a ghost appear in the passband where it would
damage the decoding efficiency, although it may still be there under the
noise. This is an unusual effect that I have not seen before. Anybody
any ideas of how these ghost signals are being generated?

Andrew Forrest
M1KAZ (K2 #3679,K3 #0499)
--




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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-08 Thread Jim Brown 
On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:30:55 +0100, Andrew Forrest wrote:

It appears that this effect is nothing to do with clipping or
transformer saturation but some kind of mixing. 

I'm also not convinced that this particular screen shot is non-
linear distortion. It could be aliasing in the FFT software that's 
part of the decoder. 

On the other hand, the pdf below DOES show both harmonic distortion 
and IM distortion on the Line Output when the Line Out level is set 
too high (driving the transformer being driven beyond it's ratings). 

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/K3FilterStudy.pdf 

73,

Jim Brown K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-08 Thread n4lq 
I see the same extra stripe using mixw  and an RF generator. I had to turn 
down the line out of the K3 to 001 and crank up the sound card to max 
inorder to eliminate it. The level is a bit weak now and needs more gain. 
There is something not quiet right here.

Steve Ellington
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Jim Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio



On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:30:55 +0100, Andrew Forrest wrote:


It appears that this effect is nothing to do with clipping or
transformer saturation but some kind of mixing.


I'm also not convinced that this particular screen shot is non-
linear distortion. It could be aliasing in the FFT software that's
part of the decoder.

On the other hand, the pdf below DOES show both harmonic distortion
and IM distortion on the Line Output when the Line Out level is set
too high (driving the transformer being driven beyond it's ratings).

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/K3FilterStudy.pdf

73,

Jim Brown K9YC



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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1601 - Release Date: 8/8/2008 
9:02 AM






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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-08 Thread Alexandr Kobranov 

Hello,

last test to test possible AGC influence on ghost signals is here

http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_agc_off_500Hz.JPG

K3 has AGC OFF and signals are shortly invoked on/off by RF GAIN knob.
Line out is on 4, BW 400Hz (as roofing filter)
Spectrum is wider to see 500Hz original and then signals around 1.5, 
2.5 etc kHz.


Without changing of soundcard input gain the same performed with TS-850

http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_agc_off.JPG

Also AGC OFF and af signal invoked by RF GAIN knob.
There are no ghosts visible.

(please ignore some permanent birdies on both pictures, look for 
signal on/off and ghosts on the right from original signals)


So as AGC was completely OFF, signal generator was used and in both 
cases the same soundcard setting was used and the same SW, there is 
probably some source of K3´s ghost signals in DSP demodulator itself.


Using so wide specrum (up to 5kHz) is only to illustrate how many and 
where all ghosts are...

Hope somebody with less amateur approach can comment/explain.

73!
Lexa, ok1dst
K3/10 #727
K3 GhostBusters Club


n4lq napsal(a):
I see the same extra stripe using mixw  and an RF generator. I had to 
turn down the line out of the K3 to 001 and crank up the sound card to 
max inorder to eliminate it. The level is a bit weak now and needs more 
gain. There is something not quiet right here.

Steve Ellington
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - From: Jim Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio



On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:30:55 +0100, Andrew Forrest wrote:


It appears that this effect is nothing to do with clipping or
transformer saturation but some kind of mixing.


I'm also not convinced that this particular screen shot is non-
linear distortion. It could be aliasing in the FFT software that's
part of the decoder.

On the other hand, the pdf below DOES show both harmonic distortion
and IM distortion on the Line Output when the Line Out level is set
too high (driving the transformer being driven beyond it's ratings).

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/K3FilterStudy.pdf

73,

Jim Brown K9YC



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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1601 - Release Date: 
8/8/2008 9:02 AM






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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-08 Thread Jim Brown 
On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:56:41 +0200, Alexandr Kobranov wrote:

last test to test possible AGC influence on ghost signals is here

When you turn off the AGC, you are likely to overload the audio 
system in any radio. The trace below is nothing more of less than 
harmonic distortion caused by the overload of an audio stage. Could 
be the K3, could be the sound card. 

http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_agc_off_500Hz.JPG

Without changing of soundcard input gain the same performed with 
TS-850

http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_agc_off.JPG

The second trace shows that the audio system is not being 
overdriven. The difference could be nothing more than how levels are 
set or how much gain there is between the detector and the audio 
system. 

You've excited the audio system with a single frequency. If you 
excited it with broadband noise, as I did, you would also see the IM 
components of distortion. 

73,

Jim Brown K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-08 Thread Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU 
I have noticed this effect in recent beta firmware revisions as well.  I 
spent quite some time looking at a busy band and chasing ghosts 
everywhere, trying to find out what was up.  I searched the archives and 
saw others had the same problem; the harmonics do seem to be recent, as 
I've not been troubled by this effect before.  Before I wrote I was 
waiting to see if someone did just this experiment you describe.


One point: I have the HAGC mod on my desk still, though, so it's 
possible, especially after Lyle KK7P's last email about the HAGC mod, 
that my problem is related to the undone HAGC mod.  However, if others 
with more recent K3s have the problem, then it isn't just that.

Leigh/WA5ZNU
K3#51
I see the same extra stripe using mixw  and an RF generator. I had to 
turn down the line out of the K3 to 001 and crank up the sound card to 
max inorder to eliminate it. The level is a bit weak now and needs 
more gain. There is something not quiet right here.

Steve Ellington
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - From: Jim Brown 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio



On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:30:55 +0100, Andrew Forrest wrote:


It appears that this effect is nothing to do with clipping or
transformer saturation but some kind of mixing.


I'm also not convinced that this particular screen shot is non-
linear distortion. It could be aliasing in the FFT software that's
part of the decoder.

On the other hand, the pdf below DOES show both harmonic distortion
and IM distortion on the Line Output when the Line Out level is set
too high (driving the transformer being driven beyond it's ratings).

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/K3FilterStudy.pdf

73,

Jim Brown K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-07 Thread Alexandr Kobranov 

Hi Joe,

no - Winrad was in both channels - R+L mode, no I/Q.
AFX is off.
How the output is if I/Q input choosed to test how it looks you can see on
http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_IQ.JPG
This is quite different.
73!
L. -dst-


Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):
Do you have AFX on and are you looking at I/Q (left/right) from 
the K3?  The capture - including the small spike directly between 
the real and ghost signals looks like you are trying to process 
an unbalanced I/Q signal with the resulting improperly nulled image. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
Alexandr Kobranov

Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:53 PM
Cc: 'elecraft Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio


I just made two basic samples using K3 and TS-850 using Firebox 
external soundcard and Winrad SW.


You can see screenshot from K3 line-out audio on

http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_firebox_winrad.jpg

This is K3 with 400Hz roofing filter on some stable carrier. 
LINE OUT setting on level 9.


Then the same signal with the same af level (no change in Firebox 
input mixer settings) with TS-850


http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_af_firebox_winrad.jpg

This is my TS-850 with 400Hz inrad filter and output from 
phones jack. There are also some ghosts in af spectrum, 
generaly more noisy, but 
no image of passband af signal visible.


As I do not believe in overloding of the Firebox soundcard (the same 
conditions for both RIGs so if overloded so in both cases...), there 
is something to explain.


Comments?

Thanks for your attention,
73!
Lexa, OK1DST
K3/10 #727




Alexandr Kobranov napsal(a):

I can confirm cca 20dB lower level of 3rd harmonics on front panel
phones output against rear panel line out. Main versus 3rd 
harmonics is 

50dB resp. 7OdB on line-out resp. phones output here.
Just tried with on-board sound card od my Dell workstation.
(using Spectran SW and output level adjusted for the same 
peak out level 

on Spectran screen).
Maybe later will try with Firebox sound card which has 

better parameters.

Lexa, ok1dst

Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):

There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio.  This has been
there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics.  The 3rd 
harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable.  I used HRD to show 
this on the waterfall after a conversation with a friend. You can 
clearly see the harmonic at..
You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer in 
the
K3. 
I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3.  Until 
the level 
becomes excessive ( .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third 
harmonic is 
more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down 
(headphones). 

73,
   ... Joe, W4TV  




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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-07 Thread Brett Howard 
Could you try this test again and just turn down your RF gain a bit?

Or try turning down your AGC threshold.  I found that if your an
automatic kinda guy that a threshold of 2 with a slope of 10 works
pretty good.

I found that when listening to a CW station if the AGC was threshold was
set to high and the RF gain was maxed out that I did get a lot of
harmonic distortion.  I found that turning down the RF gain helped a
little bit but once you hit a certain point poof most of it goes away.
It seems like there is a stage being driven into clipping even before
the audio and thats where the harmonics are coming from. 

Even from the two previous recordings that I did where I preferred the
K1 because the narrower filter settings sounded very harsh on the ears
well it just so turns out that some better AGC settings (or simply
turning the RF gain down) results in a MUCH more pleasant sounding rig.
Another one of those places where the ultimate adjustibility of the K3
caused me some grief but I learned something about the rig and had fun
with the hobby so still yet color me happy! 

Hope the rest of you are having as much fun finding and figuring out
things as I... :)  

New K3 tagline.

Elecraft K3  Its not an appliance!

~Brett (KC7OTG)


On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 23:53 +0200, Alexandr Kobranov wrote:
 I just made two basic samples using K3 and TS-850 using Firebox 
 external soundcard and Winrad SW.
 
 You can see screenshot from K3 line-out audio on
 
 http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_firebox_winrad.jpg
 
 This is K3 with 400Hz roofing filter on some stable carrier.
 LINE OUT setting on level 9.
 
 Then the same signal with the same af level (no change in Firebox 
 input mixer settings) with TS-850
 
 http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_af_firebox_winrad.jpg
 
 This is my TS-850 with 400Hz inrad filter and output from phones jack.
 There are also some ghosts in af spectrum, generaly more noisy, but 
 no image of passband af signal visible.
 
 As I do not believe in overloding of the Firebox soundcard (the same 
 conditions for both RIGs so if overloded so in both cases...), there 
 is something to explain.
 
 Comments?
 
 Thanks for your attention,
 73!
 Lexa, OK1DST
 K3/10 #727
 
 
 
 
 Alexandr Kobranov napsal(a):
  I can confirm cca 20dB lower level of 3rd harmonics on front panel 
  phones output against rear panel line out. Main versus 3rd harmonics is 
  50dB resp. 7OdB on line-out resp. phones output here.
  Just tried with on-board sound card od my Dell workstation.
  (using Spectran SW and output level adjusted for the same peak out level 
  on Spectran screen).
  Maybe later will try with Firebox sound card which has better parameters.
  Lexa, ok1dst
  
  Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):
 
  There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio.  This has been 
  there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics.  The 3rd 
  harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable.  I used HRD to show 
  this on the waterfall after a conversation with a friend. You can 
  clearly see the harmonic at..
 
  You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer in the 
  K3. 
  I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
  at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3.  Until the level 
  becomes excessive ( .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third harmonic is 
  more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down (headphones). 
  73,
 ... Joe, W4TV  
 
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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-07 Thread Alexandr Kobranov 

Hi Brett,

yes, I can play with it today evening I hope.
Now having AGC-F, SLP 13 and TRSHLD 6, RF MAX
On TS-850 I have AGC Fast, RF max
All testing on relatively strong signals(more then S7).

But I am not sure possible if clipping is before final AF output as 
there are differencies between LINE OUT and PHONES output. But who 
knows...


Generally having some leakage -50dB and 3f out of desired signal is 
not seriuos problem for CW/SSB (imho), maybe only for us we use af out 
for some post-processing (Spectran, Winrad,...) or digital decoder 
(PSK, WSJT, WSPR, CW Skimmer,...) can such ghosts make some confusions.
Not sure if there can be problem with weak digital signals like WSJT 
(but decoding K2UYH on 23cm some week ago without any problems and 
shortly tested WSPR on 30m band and no problems od decoder recognized 
also).

Maybe all this is more academic but still interesting :-)
Maybe somebody else can report more serious problems with this 
phenomena, I am not using digital modes intensively.


As I am leaving for holiday I am afraid I will not be able to make 
more tests/screenshots during next days - maybe somebody else can 
spend next weekend with some testing :-)

(But taking my K3 and some HF wires with - surely :-))

73!
Lexa, ok1dst
K3/10 #727

Brett Howard napsal(a):

Could you try this test again and just turn down your RF gain a bit?

Or try turning down your AGC threshold.  I found that if your an
automatic kinda guy that a threshold of 2 with a slope of 10 works
pretty good.

I found that when listening to a CW station if the AGC was threshold was
set to high and the RF gain was maxed out that I did get a lot of
harmonic distortion.  I found that turning down the RF gain helped a
little bit but once you hit a certain point poof most of it goes away.
It seems like there is a stage being driven into clipping even before
the audio and thats where the harmonics are coming from. 


Even from the two previous recordings that I did where I preferred the
K1 because the narrower filter settings sounded very harsh on the ears
well it just so turns out that some better AGC settings (or simply
turning the RF gain down) results in a MUCH more pleasant sounding rig.
Another one of those places where the ultimate adjustibility of the K3
caused me some grief but I learned something about the rig and had fun
with the hobby so still yet color me happy! 


Hope the rest of you are having as much fun finding and figuring out
things as I... :)  


New K3 tagline.

Elecraft K3  Its not an appliance!

~Brett (KC7OTG)


On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 23:53 +0200, Alexandr Kobranov wrote:
I just made two basic samples using K3 and TS-850 using Firebox 
external soundcard and Winrad SW.


You can see screenshot from K3 line-out audio on

http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_firebox_winrad.jpg

This is K3 with 400Hz roofing filter on some stable carrier.
LINE OUT setting on level 9.

Then the same signal with the same af level (no change in Firebox 
input mixer settings) with TS-850


http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_af_firebox_winrad.jpg

This is my TS-850 with 400Hz inrad filter and output from phones jack.
There are also some ghosts in af spectrum, generaly more noisy, but 
no image of passband af signal visible.


As I do not believe in overloding of the Firebox soundcard (the same 
conditions for both RIGs so if overloded so in both cases...), there 
is something to explain.


Comments?

Thanks for your attention,
73!
Lexa, OK1DST
K3/10 #727




Alexandr Kobranov napsal(a):
I can confirm cca 20dB lower level of 3rd harmonics on front panel 
phones output against rear panel line out. Main versus 3rd harmonics is 
50dB resp. 7OdB on line-out resp. phones output here.

Just tried with on-board sound card od my Dell workstation.
(using Spectran SW and output level adjusted for the same peak out level 
on Spectran screen).

Maybe later will try with Firebox sound card which has better parameters.
Lexa, ok1dst

Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):
There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio.  This has been 
there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics.  The 3rd 
harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable.  I used HRD to show 
this on the waterfall after a conversation with a friend. You can 
clearly see the harmonic at..
You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer in the 
K3. 
I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3.  Until the level 
becomes excessive ( .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third harmonic is 
more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down (headphones). 
73,
   ... Joe, W4TV  


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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-07 Thread Brett Howard 
I'm pretty much mostly a CW op and I find that making sure that I don't
get too high in the RF gains to be important as I found that the sound
is a LOT harsher when you are in this area.  It definitely sounds like
clipping and now that I've looked at it it looks like it too.  

Also I found that I ran into this issue more often when I was using the
narrower filters.  Well I found that the filter setup that I had on my
rig when it came back from repair was to have a +7dB gain on my 250Hz
filter.  I went in and  later fooled around with those and setup my
250Hz filter to kick in around 350 or so and that is about where I
started to notice this get a little worse.  But once I started going to
wider filters not only did that turn down the gain a bit but it also
opened things up so that it was a bit harder to see the harmonic
spurs.  

Anyway I'm glad that you started posting your pics as it made me start
to look at things using baudline and after looking at my recordings and
fiddling with the radio for a bit I've got things sounding MUCH
better.  

I should also note that my line out setting was at 5 when I was doing my
tests and I find that to be more than enough signal to keep the sound
card happy. 

Thanks much...

~Brett 

On Thu, 2008-08-07 at 11:09 +0200, Alexandr Kobranov wrote:
 Hi Brett,
 
 yes, I can play with it today evening I hope.
 Now having AGC-F, SLP 13 and TRSHLD 6, RF MAX
 On TS-850 I have AGC Fast, RF max
 All testing on relatively strong signals(more then S7).
 
 But I am not sure possible if clipping is before final AF output as 
 there are differencies between LINE OUT and PHONES output. But who 
 knows...
 
 Generally having some leakage -50dB and 3f out of desired signal is 
 not seriuos problem for CW/SSB (imho), maybe only for us we use af out 
 for some post-processing (Spectran, Winrad,...) or digital decoder 
 (PSK, WSJT, WSPR, CW Skimmer,...) can such ghosts make some confusions.
 Not sure if there can be problem with weak digital signals like WSJT 
 (but decoding K2UYH on 23cm some week ago without any problems and 
 shortly tested WSPR on 30m band and no problems od decoder recognized 
 also).
 Maybe all this is more academic but still interesting :-)
 Maybe somebody else can report more serious problems with this 
 phenomena, I am not using digital modes intensively.
 
 As I am leaving for holiday I am afraid I will not be able to make 
 more tests/screenshots during next days - maybe somebody else can 
 spend next weekend with some testing :-)
 (But taking my K3 and some HF wires with - surely :-))
 
 73!
 Lexa, ok1dst
 K3/10 #727
 
 Brett Howard napsal(a):
  Could you try this test again and just turn down your RF gain a bit?
  
  Or try turning down your AGC threshold.  I found that if your an
  automatic kinda guy that a threshold of 2 with a slope of 10 works
  pretty good.
  
  I found that when listening to a CW station if the AGC was threshold was
  set to high and the RF gain was maxed out that I did get a lot of
  harmonic distortion.  I found that turning down the RF gain helped a
  little bit but once you hit a certain point poof most of it goes away.
  It seems like there is a stage being driven into clipping even before
  the audio and thats where the harmonics are coming from. 
  
  Even from the two previous recordings that I did where I preferred the
  K1 because the narrower filter settings sounded very harsh on the ears
  well it just so turns out that some better AGC settings (or simply
  turning the RF gain down) results in a MUCH more pleasant sounding rig.
  Another one of those places where the ultimate adjustibility of the K3
  caused me some grief but I learned something about the rig and had fun
  with the hobby so still yet color me happy! 
  
  Hope the rest of you are having as much fun finding and figuring out
  things as I... :)  
  
  New K3 tagline.
  
  Elecraft K3  Its not an appliance!
  
  ~Brett (KC7OTG)
  
  
  On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 23:53 +0200, Alexandr Kobranov wrote:
  I just made two basic samples using K3 and TS-850 using Firebox 
  external soundcard and Winrad SW.
 
  You can see screenshot from K3 line-out audio on
 
  http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_firebox_winrad.jpg
 
  This is K3 with 400Hz roofing filter on some stable carrier.
  LINE OUT setting on level 9.
 
  Then the same signal with the same af level (no change in Firebox 
  input mixer settings) with TS-850
 
  http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_af_firebox_winrad.jpg
 
  This is my TS-850 with 400Hz inrad filter and output from phones jack.
  There are also some ghosts in af spectrum, generaly more noisy, but 
  no image of passband af signal visible.
 
  As I do not believe in overloding of the Firebox soundcard (the same 
  conditions for both RIGs so if overloded so in both cases...), there 
  is something to explain.
 
  Comments?
 
  Thanks for your attention,
  73!
  Lexa, OK1DST
  K3/10 #727
 
 
 
 
  Alexandr Kobranov napsal(a):
  I can

Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Ian Maude 

Bob Cunnings wrote:

If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state that
the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a low
impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say, powered
speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.
  

There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio.  This has been there
for some time and exists in the form of harmonics.  The 3rd harmonic is
quite easy to see and repeatable.  I used HRD to show this on the
waterfall after a conversation with a friend.
You can clearly see the harmonic at..

http://www.gb7mbc.net/docs/K3Audiotrace.doc

73 Ian

So that might explain your observations.

Bob NW8L

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood said, but I
agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds cleaner, brighter
and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even before
applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple of small
external computer speakers.

73 to all

Geoff
G3UCK

- Original Message - From: Dave G4AON [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio





Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on commission
from Elecraft!

73 Dave, G4AON
K3/100 #80
  

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--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #455


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RE: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 


 On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:32:55 +0200, Koppendorfer Klaus wrote:
  did you use the line out ?? The Line Output
  transformers of the K3, saturate at normal program levels
  try Headphone out on Frontplate and you will see no Harmonic´s

Having heard this several times I did some research: 

Yes, it is possible to force the Line output into distortion 
but you literally have to force the K3 to distort.  If AGC is 
turned on, I do not see distortion/saturation at any level of 
input signal or any level of Line Out.  If I turn off the AGC 
and crank the Line Out setting to 100, audio will be distorted 
with the 50 uV signal from an XG-2.  

Adjusting the Line Out level while watching the audio output 
with a scope and audio spectrum analyzer shows that there is 
no issue as long as the audio level remains below 1V peak (.7V 
RMS).  With an S9 signal (50 uV, preamp off), the Line Out 
voltage reaches .7V RMS with CONFIG:Line Out set to about 12. 

All of this is consistent with the K3 Manual which says: 

  | LIN OUT settings above 10 are usually not necessary, 
  | and can in some cases cause overloading of either the 
  | K3’s output transformers or the PC soundcard inputs
  | (typically on noise peaks). Either could degrade the 
  | performance of digital demodulation software.

For the benefit of W8JI ... saturation is a good description of 
the behavior.  When adjusting the Line Out level above 1V peak, 
any single tone in the audio spectrum appears to be clipped 
at the 1V level. Although this could be due to clipping in the 
audio amplifier, given the manual warning, transformer saturation
appears to be the more likely explanation. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 

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RE: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 


 There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio.  This has 
 been there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. 
  The 3rd harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable.  I 
 used HRD to show this on the waterfall after a conversation 
 with a friend. You can clearly see the harmonic at..

You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer 
in the K3.  

I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3.  Until the level 
becomes excessive ( .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third harmonic is 
more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down (headphones).  

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 

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RE: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Trevor Smithers 
All of this is consistent with the K3 Manual which says: 

  | LIN OUT settings above 10 are usually not necessary, 
  | and can in some cases cause overloading of either the 
  | K3’s output transformers or the PC soundcard inputs
  | (typically on noise peaks). Either could degrade the 
  | performance of digital demodulation software.

This is news to me - when did this rather crucial change take place, and more 
importantly what else has changed. My manual says the default for Line Out is 
30.

Having now looked at the latest manual I can see the reference but what I don't 
see is 
the errata sheet detailing all the other changes in the new manual.

Not getting at you Joe, in fact I'm grateful to you for pointing it out.

73 to all
Trevor  G0KTN
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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Tom W8JI 
For the benefit of W8JI ... saturation is a good description 
of
the behavior.  When adjusting the Line Out level above 1V 
peak,

any single tone in the audio spectrum appears to be clipped
at the 1V level. Although this could be due to clipping in 
the
audio amplifier, given the manual warning, transformer 
saturation

appears to be the more likely explanation. 

My point is saturation is probably one of the most 
overused terms to describe problems with transformers or 
things with soft iron cores. When a balun gets hot, people 
call it saturating even though it virtually never is 
actually saturating. Same for inductors, and I've seen the 
same for transformers in everything from old AM gear to 
modern equipment.


I doubt it is a cheap transformer.  More likely the load 
is wrong, the driver is mismatched or at a power limit, or 
someone just has the levels way too high for the equipment 
design.


My K3 has no issues at all at rated levels.

73 Tom


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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Bob Cunnings 
When the LINE OUT transformer issue was first being discussed on this
list I took a look at the data sheet for the device:

http://www.tamuracorp.com/clientuploads/pdfs/engineeringdocs/TTC-108.pdf

It's a 600 ohm transformer, rated for 7dBm max (about 1.7 Vrms across 600 ohms).

Bob NW8L

On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Tom W8JI [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 For the benefit of W8JI ... saturation is a good description of
 the behavior.  When adjusting the Line Out level above 1V peak,
 any single tone in the audio spectrum appears to be clipped
 at the 1V level. Although this could be due to clipping in the
 audio amplifier, given the manual warning, transformer saturation
 appears to be the more likely explanation. 

 My point is saturation is probably one of the most overused terms to
 describe problems with transformers or things with soft iron cores. When a
 balun gets hot, people call it saturating even though it virtually never
 is actually saturating. Same for inductors, and I've seen the same for
 transformers in everything from old AM gear to modern equipment.

 I doubt it is a cheap transformer.  More likely the load is wrong, the
 driver is mismatched or at a power limit, or someone just has the levels way
 too high for the equipment design.

 My K3 has no issues at all at rated levels.

 73 Tom


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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Alexandr Kobranov 
I can confirm cca 20dB lower level of 3rd harmonics on front panel 
phones output against rear panel line out. Main versus 3rd harmonics 
is 50dB resp. 7OdB on line-out resp. phones output here.

Just tried with on-board sound card od my Dell workstation.
(using Spectran SW and output level adjusted for the same peak out 
level on Spectran screen).

Maybe later will try with Firebox sound card which has better parameters.
Lexa, ok1dst

Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):


There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio.  This has 
been there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. 
 The 3rd harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable.  I 
used HRD to show this on the waterfall after a conversation 
with a friend. You can clearly see the harmonic at..


You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer 
in the K3.  


I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3.  Until the level 
becomes excessive ( .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third harmonic is 
more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down (headphones).  

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 


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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Jim Brown 
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:14:51 -0600, Bob Cunnings wrote:

It's a 600 ohm transformer, rated for 7dBm max (about 1.7 Vrms 
across 600 ohms).

This datasheet does not show a graph of distortion vs level vs 
frequency, but it is specified for 300Hz - 3.5 kHz, and its 
frequency response is specified at 0 dBm (0.78 vrms). 

It is well known that saturation in transformers is a function of 
the core, and increases rapidly at lower frequencies below the 
design limits of the core. As audio transformers go, these are 
small transformers. They are specifically designed for telecom, 
where levels are generally well controlled and there's no energy 
below 300 Hz. They're fine at low levels, but if you overdrive 
them or feed them LF, the DO saturate, and both IM and harmonic 
distortion can get nasty. They ARE big enough for the intended use 
-- driving a sound card to decode RTTY and PSK -- but you've got 
to keep the level down in the range where they're designed to 
operate. 

See  http://audiosystemsgroup.com/FilterTestNotes.pdf  for my 
measurements with a high quality professional FFT analysis system. 

BTW -- Jensen Transformers are pretty much the accepted standard 
for professional audio transformers, and their data sheets are 
quite detailed. You can learn a lot about how transformers behave 
by studying them.  http://www.jensen-transformers.com/

73,

Jim Brown K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Alexandr Kobranov 
I just made two basic samples using K3 and TS-850 using Firebox 
external soundcard and Winrad SW.


You can see screenshot from K3 line-out audio on

http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_firebox_winrad.jpg

This is K3 with 400Hz roofing filter on some stable carrier.
LINE OUT setting on level 9.

Then the same signal with the same af level (no change in Firebox 
input mixer settings) with TS-850


http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_af_firebox_winrad.jpg

This is my TS-850 with 400Hz inrad filter and output from phones jack.
There are also some ghosts in af spectrum, generaly more noisy, but 
no image of passband af signal visible.


As I do not believe in overloding of the Firebox soundcard (the same 
conditions for both RIGs so if overloded so in both cases...), there 
is something to explain.


Comments?

Thanks for your attention,
73!
Lexa, OK1DST
K3/10 #727




Alexandr Kobranov napsal(a):
I can confirm cca 20dB lower level of 3rd harmonics on front panel 
phones output against rear panel line out. Main versus 3rd harmonics is 
50dB resp. 7OdB on line-out resp. phones output here.

Just tried with on-board sound card od my Dell workstation.
(using Spectran SW and output level adjusted for the same peak out level 
on Spectran screen).

Maybe later will try with Firebox sound card which has better parameters.
Lexa, ok1dst

Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):


There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio.  This has been 
there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics.  The 3rd 
harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable.  I used HRD to show 
this on the waterfall after a conversation with a friend. You can 
clearly see the harmonic at..


You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer in the 
K3. 
I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3.  Until the level 
becomes excessive ( .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third harmonic is 
more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down (headphones). 
73,
   ... Joe, W4TV  


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RE: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 

Do you have AFX on and are you looking at I/Q (left/right) from 
the K3?  The capture - including the small spike directly between 
the real and ghost signals looks like you are trying to process 
an unbalanced I/Q signal with the resulting improperly nulled image. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
 Alexandr Kobranov
 Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:53 PM
 Cc: 'elecraft Reflector'
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
 
 
 I just made two basic samples using K3 and TS-850 using Firebox 
 external soundcard and Winrad SW.
 
 You can see screenshot from K3 line-out audio on
 
 http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_firebox_winrad.jpg
 
 This is K3 with 400Hz roofing filter on some stable carrier. 
 LINE OUT setting on level 9.
 
 Then the same signal with the same af level (no change in Firebox 
 input mixer settings) with TS-850
 
 http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_af_firebox_winrad.jpg
 
 This is my TS-850 with 400Hz inrad filter and output from 
 phones jack. There are also some ghosts in af spectrum, 
 generaly more noisy, but 
 no image of passband af signal visible.
 
 As I do not believe in overloding of the Firebox soundcard (the same 
 conditions for both RIGs so if overloded so in both cases...), there 
 is something to explain.
 
 Comments?
 
 Thanks for your attention,
 73!
 Lexa, OK1DST
 K3/10 #727
 
 
 
 
 Alexandr Kobranov napsal(a):
  I can confirm cca 20dB lower level of 3rd harmonics on front panel
  phones output against rear panel line out. Main versus 3rd 
 harmonics is 
  50dB resp. 7OdB on line-out resp. phones output here.
  Just tried with on-board sound card od my Dell workstation.
  (using Spectran SW and output level adjusted for the same 
 peak out level 
  on Spectran screen).
  Maybe later will try with Firebox sound card which has 
 better parameters.
  Lexa, ok1dst
  
  Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):
 
  There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio.  This has been
  there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics.  The 3rd 
  harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable.  I used HRD to show 
  this on the waterfall after a conversation with a friend. You can 
  clearly see the harmonic at..
 
  You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer in 
  the
  K3. 
  I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
  at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3.  Until 
 the level 
  becomes excessive ( .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third 
 harmonic is 
  more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down 
 (headphones). 
  73,
 ... Joe, W4TV  
 

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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Tom W8JI 
It's a 600 ohm transformer, rated for 7dBm max (about 1.7 
Vrms across 600 ohms).


Bob NW8L


But that doesn't mean it distorts or saturates. It is 
simply a rating.


My K3 for example on a good Agilent  selective level meter 
starts to distort at -5dB reference to 1 milliwatt into 600 
ohms. That's a front panel setting of about 50 on the line 
output level adjustment.  At -5dB the second harmonic is 
down 58 dB (absolute level of  -63 dB mW ). At lower 
settings it gets better.


While I have not looked inside the radio (and won't bother) 
the distortion has all the characteristics of a mismatched 
output device because it clips at about the same level 
regardless of frequency. If it was that commonly spoke of 
but elusive to find core saturation the point of 
distortion should change with frequency. That's because the 
flux level should change with frequency for a constant 
voltage across the primary as the reactance changes with 
frequency.


When I reduce line output setting to 25 (whatever that 
means) the distortion is too close to noise floor to measure 
accurately.


I would think -10dB below 1 mW, while a bit low from 
commercial standards, is good enough for any properly 
adjusted ham radio sound card or audio system. I'm pretty 
fussy about things that matter, and I think the audio 
distortion shortfall (at least from what  measure) is 
greatly over rated. It isn't out of line with anything else 
I use, and is a lot better than some things I won't use.


This is a sample of one unit, but it looks good to me when 
the level is kept about -10 dB 1 mW into 600 ohms. I can't 
see a problem in a single tone harmonic distortion test.


73 Tom 


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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-06 Thread Bob Cunnings 
I wasn't asserting that this means it distorts or saturates, but
merely reciting the rating given on the data sheet. I agree that it
should be perfectly adequate for interfacing with normal computer
sound card inputs as long as one didn't set the line out level too
high. It's fine here.

Bob NW8L

On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Tom W8JI [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It's a 600 ohm transformer, rated for 7dBm max (about 1.7 Vrms across 600
 ohms).

 Bob NW8L

 But that doesn't mean it distorts or saturates. It is simply a rating.

 My K3 for example on a good Agilent  selective level meter starts to distort
 at -5dB reference to 1 milliwatt into 600 ohms. That's a front panel setting
 of about 50 on the line output level adjustment.  At -5dB the second
 harmonic is down 58 dB (absolute level of  -63 dB mW ). At lower settings it
 gets better.

 While I have not looked inside the radio (and won't bother) the distortion
 has all the characteristics of a mismatched output device because it clips
 at about the same level regardless of frequency. If it was that commonly
 spoke of but elusive to find core saturation the point of distortion
 should change with frequency. That's because the flux level should change
 with frequency for a constant voltage across the primary as the reactance
 changes with frequency.

 When I reduce line output setting to 25 (whatever that means) the distortion
 is too close to noise floor to measure accurately.

 I would think -10dB below 1 mW, while a bit low from commercial standards,
 is good enough for any properly adjusted ham radio sound card or audio
 system. I'm pretty fussy about things that matter, and I think the audio
 distortion shortfall (at least from what  measure) is greatly over rated. It
 isn't out of line with anything else I use, and is a lot better than some
 things I won't use.

 This is a sample of one unit, but it looks good to me when the level is kept
 about -10 dB 1 mW into 600 ohms. I can't see a problem in a single tone
 harmonic distortion test.

 73 Tom

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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-05 Thread Mike Harris 
Hi Dave,

In the presentation the TX element was not necessarily TX audio quality, 
rather the less than stellar intermod figure, however, I believe this has 
been accepted as typical of a low voltage 100W output PA.

The RX audio issue, which is probably more important, comes up in the last 
eight minutes and relates to high levels of distortion in the audio amp, 
up to and beyond an 11th harmonic at 7kHz. on a CW signal and a 9th order 
product on two tones only -40dB down.

Maybe this explains why, to my ear, even after cropping the high end of 
passband in DSP at 2400Hz on SSB it still sounds harsh.  The junk is 
apparently being generated post DSP by the af amp.  One can only speculate 
on the consequences of a CW pile-up.

The good news is, according to Rob Sherwood, that it is fixable once the 
cause has been identified.  The good news is that the good folks at 
elecraft are aware of the problem and are presumably on the case.  The bad 
news is it's probably hardware not code.

Didn't someone also mention that line output above a certain figure was 
also distorted.  I think the speculation there pointed to the af 
transformers.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO


- Original Message - 
From: Dave G4AON [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:55 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio


|I use TX equalisation with my K3 to improve on my deep gravelly voice.
| It sounds far better than my TS-480 with a similar microphone on both
| transceivers (Kenwood MC-43S on the K3, stock mic on the '480), the
| TS-480 has limited equalisation on TX but even with that it's well below
| the quality of the K3 audio which sounds to my ears close to as good as
| it's going to get from my voice. Unsolicited reports on the quality of
| my K3 TX audio are commonplace and I've never received reports such as
| those at any time in my 37 years of operating... I don't think there is
| anything wrong with the K3 TX audio.
|
| On receive the only quality receiver I have for comparison is a Drake
| R4A and the K3 sounds better than that, and the R4A isn't at all
| unpleasant to listen to... The Drake meets specification and has new
| smoothing capacitors... The K3 receiver has an open sound which can
| sound harsh when combined with a lot of background hash in the form of
| white noise from a typical domestic situation where you are surrounded
| by houses with computers, switched mode PSUs, etc. Under clean band
| conditions that openness sounds great when listening to SSB with the
| same DSP bandwidth as the roofing filter (2.8 KHz in my case). I use no
| equalisation on receive.
|
| Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on
| commission from Elecraft!
|
| 73 Dave, G4AON
| K3/100 #80
|
| Wouldn't something like this be affected by equalization?

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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-05 Thread Geoffrey Downs 
Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood said, but I 
agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds cleaner, brighter 
and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even before 
applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple of small 
external computer speakers.


73 to all

Geoff
G3UCK

- Original Message - 
From: Dave G4AON [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio



Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on commission 
from Elecraft!


73 Dave, G4AON
K3/100 #80


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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-05 Thread Bob Cunnings 
If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state that
the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a low
impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say, powered
speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.

So that might explain your observations.

Bob NW8L

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood said, but I
 agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds cleaner, brighter
 and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even before
 applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple of small
 external computer speakers.

 73 to all

 Geoff
 G3UCK

 - Original Message - From: Dave G4AON [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
 Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio



 Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on commission
 from Elecraft!

 73 Dave, G4AON
 K3/100 #80

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Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

2008-08-05 Thread Jerry Flanders 

Sherwood's talk is at http://www.sherweng.com/
click on the one at top left (

Roofing Filters, Transmitted BW  Receiver Performnce,


Dayton Drake Forum 2008, Slide Show with Audio). It is a wmv movie of 
his talk.


Jerry W4UK

At 06:29 PM 8/5/2008, Geoffrey Downs wrote:
Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood said, 
but I agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds 
cleaner, brighter and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP 
Field even before applying any equalisation. I use either a headset 
or a couple of small external computer speakers.


73 to all

Geoff
G3UCK


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