Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Pretty much any current OS out there at the moment supports the FTDI USB-RS232 adapters out of the box... ~Brett (N7MG) (Previously KC7OTG) On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Those making a mod of that nature to a K2 (or any other radio) take on a new responsibility. If anyone makes such a change and subsequently sells their K3, I would hope that the sale would include a CD with the latest drivers for any OS that could possibly be used with the K3. Plain RS-232 does not need drivers - USB does, and those drivers are OS dependent and OS level dependent. When you are working out in the field with your laptop and your USB K3, internet access to download new drivers may not be available. 73, Don W3FPR Allan G Duncan wrote: I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have regularly appeared on the reflector but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by FTDI. http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
On 5/23/2010 2:21 AM, Brett Howard wrote: Pretty much any current OS out there at the moment supports the FTDI USB-RS232 adapters out of the box... Again, not the case. Current releases of Apple OS-X do not ship with FTDI (or any other) USB hardware drivers preinstalled. The user must install the drivers manually or run the manufacturer's installer before the USB device will function. I've confirmed that problem with both Kok Chen and Don Agro in the last couple weeks ... and as a result the OS-X installation data for microHAM interfaces (which use a standard FTDI UART) will be changed relatively soon. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 5/23/2010 2:21 AM, Brett Howard wrote: Pretty much any current OS out there at the moment supports the FTDI USB-RS232 adapters out of the box... ~Brett (N7MG) (Previously KC7OTG) On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Don Wilhelmw3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Those making a mod of that nature to a K2 (or any other radio) take on a new responsibility. If anyone makes such a change and subsequently sells their K3, I would hope that the sale would include a CD with the latest drivers for any OS that could possibly be used with the K3. Plain RS-232 does not need drivers - USB does, and those drivers are OS dependent and OS level dependent. When you are working out in the field with your laptop and your USB K3, internet access to download new drivers may not be available. 73, Don W3FPR Allan G Duncan wrote: I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have regularly appeared on the reflector but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by FTDI. http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Ok well all versions of Linux, Windows after 2000, and even BeOS that I've used support it out of the box... Mac people should be used to having to find drivers for things I guess... ;) I've had nothing but success w/ the FTDI devices and that includes installing them into products that are sold in the 100K a year range. ~Brett (N7MG) (Previously KC7OTG) On Sun, 2010-05-23 at 13:00 -0400, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: On 5/23/2010 2:21 AM, Brett Howard wrote: Pretty much any current OS out there at the moment supports the FTDI USB-RS232 adapters out of the box... Again, not the case. Current releases of Apple OS-X do not ship with FTDI (or any other) USB hardware drivers preinstalled. The user must install the drivers manually or run the manufacturer's installer before the USB device will function. I've confirmed that problem with both Kok Chen and Don Agro in the last couple weeks ... and as a result the OS-X installation data for microHAM interfaces (which use a standard FTDI UART) will be changed relatively soon. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 5/23/2010 2:21 AM, Brett Howard wrote: Pretty much any current OS out there at the moment supports the FTDI USB-RS232 adapters out of the box... ~Brett (N7MG) (Previously KC7OTG) On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Don Wilhelmw3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Those making a mod of that nature to a K2 (or any other radio) take on a new responsibility. If anyone makes such a change and subsequently sells their K3, I would hope that the sale would include a CD with the latest drivers for any OS that could possibly be used with the K3. Plain RS-232 does not need drivers - USB does, and those drivers are OS dependent and OS level dependent. When you are working out in the field with your laptop and your USB K3, internet access to download new drivers may not be available. 73, Don W3FPR Allan G Duncan wrote: I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have regularly appeared on the reflector but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by FTDI. http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
This looks extremely cool. However, it doesn't appear that Mouser or Digi-Key in the US are carrying it yet, so getting one-off quantities might be problematic until the retail distribution chain catches up. Obviously a possibility here for Elecraft to offer the KIO3 in either version (RS-232 or USB connector) as an ordering option, if they've a mind to... Thanks, Allan. Bill W5WVO New Mexico -- From: Allan G Duncan allan.dun...@allanduncan.co.uk Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 4:56 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3 I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have regularly appeared on the reflector but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by FTDI. http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf It is a USB/RS232 converter built into the same form factor as a PCB mounting DB9 connector as used in the Elecraft KIO3 module. This has the advantage that the existing DB9 connector on the KIO3 could be carefully desoldered and replaced with the new FTDI connector. This would provide a neat way of providing a rear panel USB (mini B type) connector on the rear panel of the K3. From looking at the specification sheet the DB9-USB-F would be a drop in replacement for the existing DB9-F on the KIO3 without any track cutting etc. A neat solution. Personally, I am happy with the K3 RS232 connection and external USB/RS232 cable but I can see the attraction for some of a built in USB interface. I have always found the FTDI device drivers to be stable and work well with the K3 Utility under both Windows XP and Windows 7. If anyone does try it, I'd be interested in how they find this USB conversion. Note that this will NOT work with the K2 KIO2 as it is not a standard RS232 DB9 connector. Usual disclaimers apply - I have no connection with FTDI and have not tried the device myself. 73 Allan GM4ZUK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
On Fri, 21 May 2010 11:56:44 +0100, you wrote: If anyone does try it, I'd be interested in how they find this USB conversion. Note that this will NOT work with the K2 KIO2 as it is not a standard RS232 DB9 connector. And if you do it on your K3, it will not work with the P3. -- OV1A Jens Drive the way you wish your children would. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Obviously a possibility here for Elecraft to offer the KIO3 in either version (RS-232 or USB connector) as an ordering option, if they've a mind to... There are a few issues here: 1) Does the internal RS232 charge pump have harmonics in any Amateur bands? Are they audible? In the KIO3 we took great pains to not use a charge pump based RS232 level shifter since this circuitry is extremely close to the KXV3(A) which may carry the Rx Antenna path. Instead, we created a clean oscillator at audio and derived the necessary negative bias voltages from it. The RS232 interface is also right next to the KRX3 SubReceiver antenna input. One must be very careful about noise management here -- or go to use of castings and lots of internal shields like some radios use. 2) For an internal USB interface, we'd like to see Rx Audio (stereo) and Tx audio, along with FSK, in a way that requires no special drivers for most computers running most current or recent OSes. This reduces cabling requirements. Conceptually, think of a microHAM device (or Navigator, RigExpert Plus, ...) internal to the radio. 3) For the present configuration, you need a cable between the K3's RS232 port and the computer. Changing to an internal USB-RS232 adapter does not reduce or simplify cabling requirements, and in fact reduces the flexibility of the radio's interface! 4) Some products, like the P3, interpose themselves into the RS232 control path in a daisy-chain fashion. If the RS232 is changed to USB on the K3, the interposing device either needs to become a USB host (perhaps USB-OTG is sufficient) or an intelligent bridge device. This is far more complex and potentially much more costly than the present solution. Again, the RS232 interface appears to be the better choice at present. Enjoy! 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Those making a mod of that nature to a K2 (or any other radio) take on a new responsibility. If anyone makes such a change and subsequently sells their K3, I would hope that the sale would include a CD with the latest drivers for any OS that could possibly be used with the K3. Plain RS-232 does not need drivers - USB does, and those drivers are OS dependent and OS level dependent. When you are working out in the field with your laptop and your USB K3, internet access to download new drivers may not be available. 73, Don W3FPR Allan G Duncan wrote: I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have regularly appeared on the reflector but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by FTDI. http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
I agree with Don. Of the available choices for a computer interface in this instance, RS-232 is probably still the best one. Or to put it more realistically, it's the least miserable. Especially when dealing with truly garbagey OS software like Windows... Oops, was that my outside voice talking? Fortunately, the Prolific chipset seems to work pretty good and I have heard good reports on the FTDI adapters as well. But IMO Elecraft is doing the right thing by staying out of the mess with USB for now 73, LS W5QD -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Built-in-USB-interface-for-K3-tp5083750p5084230.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
But, how is this any different then using an external RS232 to USB converter cable or whatever. My own desire is to get rid of the funky antiquated RS232 protocol that is troubled by line speed issues, signaling lines that aren't needed and so on. USB offers so much more but you lose that when you have to filter it out by converting to an RS232 device no matter where you put it. 73, phil, K7PEH On May 21, 2010, at 3:56 AM, Allan G Duncan wrote: I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have regularly appeared on the reflector but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by FTDI. http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf It is a USB/RS232 converter built into the same form factor as a PCB mounting DB9 connector as used in the Elecraft KIO3 module. This has the advantage that the existing DB9 connector on the KIO3 could be carefully desoldered and replaced with the new FTDI connector. This would provide a neat way of providing a rear panel USB (mini B type) connector on the rear panel of the K3. From looking at the specification sheet the DB9-USB-F would be a drop in replacement for the existing DB9-F on the KIO3 without any track cutting etc. A neat solution. Personally, I am happy with the K3 RS232 connection and external USB/RS232 cable but I can see the attraction for some of a built in USB interface. I have always found the FTDI device drivers to be stable and work well with the K3 Utility under both Windows XP and Windows 7. If anyone does try it, I'd be interested in how they find this USB conversion. Note that this will NOT work with the K2 KIO2 as it is not a standard RS232 DB9 connector. Usual disclaimers apply - I have no connection with FTDI and have not tried the device myself. 73 Allan GM4ZUK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
As we move forward with OS versions, Don touches on a difference, that RS232 does not need a driver. Let it also be understood, that Microsoft does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT supply USB device drivers, BY DESIGN. A virtual RS232 port that appears in the hardware listing and surfaces in a real RS232 on the other side of some converter is a USER device. This was a flexibility wanted by the industry to sell new gadgets, code stuff when the they (not Microsoft) wanted to, and not have to bother with waiting for Microsoft to integrate it. As a courtesy Microsoft distributes certified drivers via their updates. But MS does not support them. The responsibility for keeping USB device drivers functioning in spite of operating system changes, resides with the programmers of user software and USB devices. Whether one agrees with that division is up for debate, but whether that's the way it is now, for good or bad, is a fact. What is also apparent, is that the makers and programmers of such devices are all for the new sales, but not so interested in maintenance once the big bux have been raked in. Are you surprised? Once a USB port device is implanted in a K3, Elecraft becomes slave to all the OS issues, many still unresolved, especially with W7 64 bit, and will be responsible for keeping up with all the OS changes affecting USB to RS232. The popular ham programs are still expecting RS232, whether real or virtual. My question is why on earth would anyone want to stick their foot into that bear trap, and then spend the next decade dragging that chain around. USB is law of the jungle, with order just barely being maintained. Drivers will get tested for the big bux, high volume stuff, and ignored for everything else, unless there is someone like Microham, who depends on them, who will bite, bitch, annoy, bash and continuously robo-call a chip maker until they come up with a fix for something in a driver that's screwing them to the wall. That's really a swamp. You sure you really want to go with devices embedded in the K3? At least USB/RS232 converter cords have larger separate audiences, whose larger volume will get some testing. AND if they finally refuse to upgrade, you can toss it and go get someone else's version and try again. How do you do that if the device is embedded in the K3? Just gonna trust that there's still a programmer assigned long term in some chip company to deal with keeping up with the OS, trust that they're gonna stay in business. Wanna pay for the keep up with Microsoft cost embedded in anything you buy from Elecraft? Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232. Maybe there's a reason? Careful what you wish for. 73, Guy On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Those making a mod of that nature to a K2 (or any other radio) take on a new responsibility. If anyone makes such a change and subsequently sells their K3, I would hope that the sale would include a CD with the latest drivers for any OS that could possibly be used with the K3. Plain RS-232 does not need drivers - USB does, and those drivers are OS dependent and OS level dependent. When you are working out in the field with your laptop and your USB K3, internet access to download new drivers may not be available. 73, Don W3FPR Allan G Duncan wrote: I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have regularly appeared on the reflector but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by FTDI. http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232. Maybe there's a reason? This is a very surprising statement. The only RS232 interfaces I see lingering around are from the ham radio community. So, do you mean the ham radio industry? And, I know that I have lived in the Apple Mac world for a long time but I am finding it hard to understand why USB requires custom device drivers on Windows. I know that I do not need that on my Mac computer. The only time I have ever needed to install a custom driver for USB is because of the ham radio RS232 interface needs. On May 21, 2010, at 6:57 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: As we move forward with OS versions, Don touches on a difference, that RS232 does not need a driver. Let it also be understood, that Microsoft does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT supply USB device drivers, BY DESIGN. A virtual RS232 port that appears in the hardware listing and surfaces in a real RS232 on the other side of some converter is a USER device. This was a flexibility wanted by the industry to sell new gadgets, code stuff when the they (not Microsoft) wanted to, and not have to bother with waiting for Microsoft to integrate it. As a courtesy Microsoft distributes certified drivers via their updates. But MS does not support them. The responsibility for keeping USB device drivers functioning in spite of operating system changes, resides with the programmers of user software and USB devices. Whether one agrees with that division is up for debate, but whether that's the way it is now, for good or bad, is a fact. What is also apparent, is that the makers and programmers of such devices are all for the new sales, but not so interested in maintenance once the big bux have been raked in. Are you surprised? Once a USB port device is implanted in a K3, Elecraft becomes slave to all the OS issues, many still unresolved, especially with W7 64 bit, and will be responsible for keeping up with all the OS changes affecting USB to RS232. The popular ham programs are still expecting RS232, whether real or virtual. My question is why on earth would anyone want to stick their foot into that bear trap, and then spend the next decade dragging that chain around. USB is law of the jungle, with order just barely being maintained. Drivers will get tested for the big bux, high volume stuff, and ignored for everything else, unless there is someone like Microham, who depends on them, who will bite, bitch, annoy, bash and continuously robo-call a chip maker until they come up with a fix for something in a driver that's screwing them to the wall. That's really a swamp. You sure you really want to go with devices embedded in the K3? At least USB/RS232 converter cords have larger separate audiences, whose larger volume will get some testing. AND if they finally refuse to upgrade, you can toss it and go get someone else's version and try again. How do you do that if the device is embedded in the K3? Just gonna trust that there's still a programmer assigned long term in some chip company to deal with keeping up with the OS, trust that they're gonna stay in business. Wanna pay for the keep up with Microsoft cost embedded in anything you buy from Elecraft? Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232. Maybe there's a reason? Careful what you wish for. 73, Guy On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Those making a mod of that nature to a K2 (or any other radio) take on a new responsibility. If anyone makes such a change and subsequently sells their K3, I would hope that the sale would include a CD with the latest drivers for any OS that could possibly be used with the K3. Plain RS-232 does not need drivers - USB does, and those drivers are OS dependent and OS level dependent. When you are working out in the field with your laptop and your USB K3, internet access to download new drivers may not be available. 73, Don W3FPR Allan G Duncan wrote: I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have regularly appeared on the reflector but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by FTDI. http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Well, just as a single example, for bench scales which are connected to a data processing device, see http://www.scalesgalore.com/pindustry.htm For those scales which have remoting as standard or an option, *some* of them have optional USB, but ALL remotables have RS232. RS232 very much alive in general industry. 73, Guy. On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hystad phys...@mac.com wrote: Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232. Maybe there's a reason? This is a very surprising statement. The only RS232 interfaces I see lingering around are from the ham radio community. So, do you mean the ham radio industry? And, I know that I have lived in the Apple Mac world for a long time but I am finding it hard to understand why USB requires custom device drivers on Windows. I know that I do not need that on my Mac computer. The only time I have ever needed to install a custom driver for USB is because of the ham radio RS232 interface needs. On May 21, 2010, at 6:57 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: As we move forward with OS versions, Don touches on a difference, that RS232 does not need a driver. Let it also be understood, that Microsoft does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT supply USB device drivers, BY DESIGN. A virtual RS232 port that appears in the hardware listing and surfaces in a real RS232 on the other side of some converter is a USER device. This was a flexibility wanted by the industry to sell new gadgets, code stuff when the they (not Microsoft) wanted to, and not have to bother with waiting for Microsoft to integrate it. As a courtesy Microsoft distributes certified drivers via their updates. But MS does not support them. The responsibility for keeping USB device drivers functioning in spite of operating system changes, resides with the programmers of user software and USB devices. Whether one agrees with that division is up for debate, but whether that's the way it is now, for good or bad, is a fact. What is also apparent, is that the makers and programmers of such devices are all for the new sales, but not so interested in maintenance once the big bux have been raked in. Are you surprised? Once a USB port device is implanted in a K3, Elecraft becomes slave to all the OS issues, many still unresolved, especially with W7 64 bit, and will be responsible for keeping up with all the OS changes affecting USB to RS232. The popular ham programs are still expecting RS232, whether real or virtual. My question is why on earth would anyone want to stick their foot into that bear trap, and then spend the next decade dragging that chain around. USB is law of the jungle, with order just barely being maintained. Drivers will get tested for the big bux, high volume stuff, and ignored for everything else, unless there is someone like Microham, who depends on them, who will bite, bitch, annoy, bash and continuously robo-call a chip maker until they come up with a fix for something in a driver that's screwing them to the wall. That's really a swamp. You sure you really want to go with devices embedded in the K3? At least USB/RS232 converter cords have larger separate audiences, whose larger volume will get some testing. AND if they finally refuse to upgrade, you can toss it and go get someone else's version and try again. How do you do that if the device is embedded in the K3? Just gonna trust that there's still a programmer assigned long term in some chip company to deal with keeping up with the OS, trust that they're gonna stay in business. Wanna pay for the keep up with Microsoft cost embedded in anything you buy from Elecraft? Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232. Maybe there's a reason? Careful what you wish for. 73, Guy On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Those making a mod of that nature to a K2 (or any other radio) take on a new responsibility. If anyone makes such a change and subsequently sells their K3, I would hope that the sale would include a CD with the latest drivers for any OS that could possibly be used with the K3. Plain RS-232 does not need drivers - USB does, and those drivers are OS dependent and OS level dependent. When you are working out in the field with your laptop and your USB K3, internet access to download new drivers may not be available. 73, Don W3FPR Allan G Duncan wrote: I don't wish to re-ignite the RS232 vs USB connectivity debates which have regularly appeared on the reflector but some K3 owners may be interested in this product recently launched by FTDI. http://www.ftdichip.com/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_DB9-USB-RS232.pdf __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
With the exception of ham radio, I seriously doubt that I could find and buy a device that needs RS232. I understand that there might be a device that supports RS232 for some old equipment needs. Or, even devices, as the cited example that for some reason continues to use RS232. And, I can understand some of those reasons from technical perspective but I don't think this is relevant to the issue with ham radio or to all the other devices that we (in this ham radio community) belong to. In my opinion, the only argument for ham radio having RS232 is because there are still old computers out there that do not support USB and the ham radio community is playing to that crowd. Personally, I think this is a mistake because you don't see other kinds of devices making that sacrifice. And, by devices that I might buy, let me categorize them a bit. They fall into classes such as: audio devices such as speakers or microphones, card interfaces such as smart cards, memory sticks, biometric readers, and even my Fluke DVM, or various communication devices such as a modem or a speakerphone, or how about keyboards, joysticks, drawing tablets, other mass storage such as hard drives, CD drives, digital camera interfaces, and media players, or then there are printers of all various kinds, and digital camcorders, webcams, so on and so forth. This is all quite the industry and they are all USB and I doubt that I could buy a device of the kinds I mention here and have it not be implicitly USB (new that is, since I agree old stuff exists that uses RS232). The cited example (below) is nice but I have no need to buy a scale and plug it into my computer. However, if I did, I bet that I would find one that is USB. About device drivers -- by the way, on my Mac computer, I don't think I would need a device driver for any of the devices that I mention above. I have not tried them all but I do know that the exposed USB I/O interface supports them so that you can write ordinary non-kernel applications that interface to them without the need of a custom driver (which I call a program that runs in kernel mode and must be installed separately from the application). 73, phil, K7PEH On May 21, 2010, at 7:16 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Well, just as a single example, for bench scales which are connected to a data processing device, see http://www.scalesgalore.com/pindustry.htm For those scales which have remoting as standard or an option, *some* of them have optional USB, but ALL remotables have RS232. RS232 very much alive in general industry. 73, Guy. On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hystad phys...@mac.com wrote: Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232. Maybe there's a reason? This is a very surprising statement. The only RS232 interfaces I see lingering around are from the ham radio community. So, do you mean the ham radio industry? And, I know that I have lived in the Apple Mac world for a long time but I am finding it hard to understand why USB requires custom device drivers on Windows. I know that I do not need that on my Mac computer. The only time I have ever needed to install a custom driver for USB is because of the ham radio RS232 interface needs. On May 21, 2010, at 6:57 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: As we move forward with OS versions, Don touches on a difference, that RS232 does not need a driver. Let it also be understood, that Microsoft does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT supply USB device drivers, BY DESIGN. A virtual RS232 port that appears in the hardware listing and surfaces in a real RS232 on the other side of some converter is a USER device. This was a flexibility wanted by the industry to sell new gadgets, code stuff when the they (not Microsoft) wanted to, and not have to bother with waiting for Microsoft to integrate it. As a courtesy Microsoft distributes certified drivers via their updates. But MS does not support them. The responsibility for keeping USB device drivers functioning in spite of operating system changes, resides with the programmers of user software and USB devices. Whether one agrees with that division is up for debate, but whether that's the way it is now, for good or bad, is a fact. What is also apparent, is that the makers and programmers of such devices are all for the new sales, but not so interested in maintenance once the big bux have been raked in. Are you surprised? Once a USB port device is implanted in a K3, Elecraft becomes slave to all the OS issues, many still unresolved, especially with W7 64 bit, and will be responsible for keeping up with all the OS changes affecting USB to RS232. The popular ham programs are still expecting RS232, whether real or virtual. My question is why on earth would anyone want to stick their foot into that bear trap, and then spend the next decade dragging that chain around. USB is law of the jungle, with order just barely being maintained. Drivers
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Allan Duncan-3 wrote: Perhaps they are considering a P3 version that could interface to non-Elecraft transceivers with IF outputs and RS232 ports? Maybe the KPA500 is similar? I know the P3 can be used with non-Elecraft rigs and would be surprised if the KPA500 were not designed with the same goal. It only makes sense that Elecraft would greatly expand their potential market by designing for use with other rigs. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Built-in-USB-interface-for-K3-tp5084342p5084668.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
You list items where the processing is PC-based, and the devices blend with consumer applicaitons. Beyond that are industrial devices with embedded robotics in applications where software absolutely cannot be changed based on anything other than that company's own internal needs, the world of IBM and Unix mainframes, of devices that are expected to have decades-long investment lives, and such things as exposing one's company to externally imposed OS device protocol changes requiring matching internal coding and debugging to stay working, is a career-ending mistake. This is an environment where the OS is required to support 20 year old code without imposed changes, and the equivalent of CTL-ALT-DELETE to fix an unrepaired problem in the OS can take a factory off-line for an hour or more resulting in hundreds of thousands of dollars, or even millions, in loss per hour. This is not the world of the mass consumer/Microsoft paradigm where is old always bad because they want to sell you something new. This is the world where you will find x86 processors running on specialty motherboards, and STILL running OS/2. You're entitled to your preferences, for sure, but I hope that I don't have your preferences imposed on me :). 73, Guy. On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Phil Hystad phys...@mac.com wrote: With the exception of ham radio, I seriously doubt that I could find and buy a device that needs RS232. I understand that there might be a device that supports RS232 for some old equipment needs. Or, even devices, as the cited example that for some reason continues to use RS232. And, I can understand some of those reasons from technical perspective but I don't think this is relevant to the issue with ham radio or to all the other devices that we (in this ham radio community) belong to. In my opinion, the only argument for ham radio having RS232 is because there are still old computers out there that do not support USB and the ham radio community is playing to that crowd. Personally, I think this is a mistake because you don't see other kinds of devices making that sacrifice. And, by devices that I might buy, let me categorize them a bit. They fall into classes such as: audio devices such as speakers or microphones, card interfaces such as smart cards, memory sticks, biometric readers, and even my Fluke DVM, or various communication devices such as a modem or a speakerphone, or how about keyboards, joysticks, drawing tablets, other mass storage such as hard drives, CD drives, digital camera interfaces, and media players, or then there are printers of all various kinds, and digital camcorders, webcams, so on and so forth. This is all quite the industry and they are all USB and I doubt that I could buy a device of the kinds I mention here and have it not be implicitly USB (new that is, since I agree old stuff exists that uses RS232). The cited example (below) is nice but I have no need to buy a scale and plug it into my computer. However, if I did, I bet that I would find one that is USB. About device drivers -- by the way, on my Mac computer, I don't think I would need a device driver for any of the devices that I mention above. I have not tried them all but I do know that the exposed USB I/O interface supports them so that you can write ordinary non-kernel applications that interface to them without the need of a custom driver (which I call a program that runs in kernel mode and must be installed separately from the application). 73, phil, K7PEH On May 21, 2010, at 7:16 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Well, just as a single example, for bench scales which are connected to a data processing device, see http://www.scalesgalore.com/pindustry.htm For those scales which have remoting as standard or an option, *some* of them have optional USB, but ALL remotables have RS232. RS232 very much alive in general industry. 73, Guy. On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Phil Hystad phys...@mac.com wrote: Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232. Maybe there's a reason? This is a very surprising statement. The only RS232 interfaces I see lingering around are from the ham radio community. So, do you mean the ham radio industry? And, I know that I have lived in the Apple Mac world for a long time but I am finding it hard to understand why USB requires custom device drivers on Windows. I know that I do not need that on my Mac computer. The only time I have ever needed to install a custom driver for USB is because of the ham radio RS232 interface needs. On May 21, 2010, at 6:57 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: As we move forward with OS versions, Don touches on a difference, that RS232 does not need a driver. Let it also be understood, that Microsoft does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT supply USB device drivers, BY DESIGN. A virtual RS232 port that appears in the hardware listing and surfaces in a real RS232 on the other side of some converter
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Phil, I would place all the devices you mentioned into the category of consumer devices, and that is not the same as industry devices. How many point of sale terminals do you see in stores that are using a USB connection? Most (if not all) use RS-232. The connectors may be either 9 pin or 25 pin - they may or may not be consumer PC compatible - the 25 pin RS-232 implements a secondary port as well as the primary, and is used by many industrial devices. Yes, those are not consumer devices, they are things that are used in the retail sales arena. If you are in a manufacturing area, look at the communications interface between devices that are being used there - they are mostly all RS-232 or some other interface that is termed archaic and outdated by some of the posts on this reflector. RS-232 and others standard interfaces are definitely not dead, and are being used in these environments because it is reliable and it works, and is not dependent on the whims and desires of the OS updates. These environments also must run long distances with these communication signals, and neither USB nor Firewire are capable of those distances - RS-232 is. Do not be fooled by the makers of laptop computers who are trying to squeeze as much function as possible into a small space, and desktop computers in the consumer market seem to be ignoring the need for RS-232 as well. Such is life in the consumer market, but I do not want to consider my K3 as a typical consumer device that I throw away and purchase a new one when it does not work. 73, Don W3FPR Phil Hystad wrote: With the exception of ham radio, I seriously doubt that I could find and buy a device that needs RS232. I understand that there might be a device that supports RS232 for some old equipment needs. Or, even devices, as the cited example that for some reason continues to use RS232. And, I can understand some of those reasons from technical perspective but I don't think this is relevant to the issue with ham radio or to all the other devices that we (in this ham radio community) belong to. In my opinion, the only argument for ham radio having RS232 is because there are still old computers out there that do not support USB and the ham radio community is playing to that crowd. Personally, I think this is a mistake because you don't see other kinds of devices making that sacrifice. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 07:43 -0700, Phil Hystad wrote: With the exception of ham radio, I seriously doubt that I could find and buy a device that needs RS232. I understand that there might be a device that supports RS232 for some old equipment needs. Or, even devices, as the cited example that for some reason continues to use RS232. Cisco, 3Com and Juniper Routers and switches still all use an RS232 based console port and very handy it is at times too. It's used as the NMEA bus for pretty much all marine electronics where here the big advantage is that you can easily have multiple devices listening to GPS data on the same common bus In the ham shack the same trick is used to control steppir antennas, drive band controllers etc I have yet to meet an X86 based server that does not have at least one on board RS232 port and you can buy USB to rs232 converters for a couple of Euro on Ebay RS-232 is still be best choice for low speed serial communications for many applications -- 73 Brendan EI6IZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
And, I know that I have lived in the Apple Mac world for a long time but I am finding it hard to understand why USB requires custom device drivers on Windows. I know that I do not need that on my Mac computer. The only time I have ever needed to install a custom driver for USB is because of the ham radio RS232 interface needs. That is absolutely untrue as I have learned recently ... Like Microsoft, although Apple will recognize a USB device in System Profiler, it does not supply the drivers necessary for the operating system to talk to those devices (e.g USBSerial). It is the responsibility of the device manufacturer to supply the appropriate operating system driver and install it (or provide instructions for the user to install it manually). In an overwhelming number of devices, USB is nothing other than an alternative to the 8250 equivalent UART. USB simply embeds the UART in the accessory device and extends the CPU peripheral bus to the device. It is a way for the computer manufacturer to move COSTS to the peripheral maker. Except for very few devices, the communication between the UART and device is a simple serial data stream - no different than if the UART had remained in the computer and the data transported as RS-232 signal levels. The ONLY advantage to USB is the ability to support higher data rates - up to 3 megabits per second - for mass storage and data intensive devices like digital cameras and other A/V devices. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 5/21/2010 10:05 AM, Phil Hystad wrote: Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232. Maybe there's a reason? This is a very surprising statement. The only RS232 interfaces I see lingering around are from the ham radio community. So, do you mean the ham radio industry? And, I know that I have lived in the Apple Mac world for a long time but I am finding it hard to understand why USB requires custom device drivers on Windows. I know that I do not need that on my Mac computer. The only time I have ever needed to install a custom driver for USB is because of the ham radio RS232 interface needs. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
This issue has been bounced around a lot and perhaps it is now overdone. I do want to say that in my consumer experience the serial port has always been a beast to work with. You constantly have to watch port settings and the OS seems to change things all the time, causing the device to fail to work properly. By contrast, every USB device I have used has worked correctly right out of the box, and the OS seems able to find the device and correctly allocate it. Plus the bandwidth on USB is considerably wider, allowing for much faster data transfer as well as the opportunity to power the device directly from the USB connection. The only problem I have seen is when a new OS comes out and updated drivers are not available. The other problem with staying with serial ports is that most computers sold today do not have them. This has been a significant problem for me in a number of practical field uses. I have tried many USB to serial adapters and have had wildly inconsistent results, and even where they work they have been inconsistent and sometimes mess up the port settings. All that being said, I now have a USB-Serial adapter that appears to work properly and I am prepared to move on. If HAM radio can find a way, as most other equipment manufacturers have done, to use USB interfaces reliably, then I will be happy. IF they don't choose to go that way I can use the adapter. This is after all HAM radio and we are supposed to have to tinker with the equipment. -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 9:01 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3 And, I know that I have lived in the Apple Mac world for a long time but I am finding it hard to understand why USB requires custom device drivers on Windows. I know that I do not need that on my Mac computer. The only time I have ever needed to install a custom driver for USB is because of the ham radio RS232 interface needs. That is absolutely untrue as I have learned recently ... Like Microsoft, although Apple will recognize a USB device in System Profiler, it does not supply the drivers necessary for the operating system to talk to those devices (e.g USBSerial). It is the responsibility of the device manufacturer to supply the appropriate operating system driver and install it (or provide instructions for the user to install it manually). In an overwhelming number of devices, USB is nothing other than an alternative to the 8250 equivalent UART. USB simply embeds the UART in the accessory device and extends the CPU peripheral bus to the device. It is a way for the computer manufacturer to move COSTS to the peripheral maker. Except for very few devices, the communication between the UART and device is a simple serial data stream - no different than if the UART had remained in the computer and the data transported as RS-232 signal levels. The ONLY advantage to USB is the ability to support higher data rates - up to 3 megabits per second - for mass storage and data intensive devices like digital cameras and other A/V devices. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 5/21/2010 10:05 AM, Phil Hystad wrote: Industrial devices are still, and remain, invested in RS232. Maybe there's a reason? This is a very surprising statement. The only RS232 interfaces I see lingering around are from the ham radio community. So, do you mean the ham radio industry? And, I know that I have lived in the Apple Mac world for a long time but I am finding it hard to understand why USB requires custom device drivers on Windows. I know that I do not need that on my Mac computer. The only time I have ever needed to install a custom driver for USB is because of the ham radio RS232 interface needs. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Yes, and Yes. :-) 73, Eric WA6HHQ Elecraft --- On 5/21/2010 8:01 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote: Allan Duncan-3 wrote: Perhaps they are considering a P3 version that could interface to non-Elecraft transceivers with IF outputs and RS232 ports? Maybe the KPA500 is similar? I know the P3 can be used with non-Elecraft rigs and would be surprised if the KPA500 were not designed with the same goal. It only makes sense that Elecraft would greatly expand their potential market by designing for use with other rigs. 73, Bill __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3 [END of Thread]
Guys - Let's END this thread now. :-) 73, Eric List Moderator On 5/21/2010 9:44 AM, eric manning wrote: PHIL HYSTAD SAID: This is a very surprising statement. The only RS232 interfaces I see lingering around are from the ham radio community. So, do you mean the ham radio industry? Uh - oh. Here we go again ... Phil, if you look in the archive of a few weeks back you will find the whole issue hashed out at great length. I had the same reaction as yours at the outset of the last go-round, but have been educated,enlightened. Bottom line: RS -232 GOOD: one mustn't be biased against it just because it's 40 years old, unix[tm] is also 40 years old and yet is still the standard of excellence. Both are Golden Oldies. USB: BAD [in the context of data communication with complex devices, e.g. radios]. See Guy's post. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
All: The same device has been available from Saelig for almost 9 months now: http://www.saelig.com/USBO/USSP002.htm Lu Romero W4LT K3 #3192 Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 05:29:01 -0600 From: Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO w5...@cybermesa.net To: Allan G Duncan allan.dun...@allanduncan.co.uk, elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: 5e94a2ca6d8b450c811878fa815d2...@billhp9250 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original This looks extremely cool. However, it doesn't appear that Mouser or Digi-Key in the US are carrying it yet, so getting one-off quantities might be problematic until the retail distribution chain catches up. Obviously a possibility here for Elecraft to offer the KIO3 in either version (RS-232 or USB connector) as an ordering option, if they've a mind to... Thanks, Allan. Bill W5WVO New Mexico __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Built in USB interface for K3
Phil Hystad-3 wrote: USB offers so much more but you lose that when you have to filter it out by converting to an RS232 device no matter where you put it. Yes, but someone needs to write special drivers to take advantage of that extra functionality. Not a trivial task, and it is multiplied by the number of operating systems you need to support. I'll wager that K3s will hold their value better than IC7600s in 10 - 15 years time because the chances are the Icom drivers won't work in whatever OS people use then, while K3s will still be able to use plain old serial. Come to that, how many IC7600 owners who use Linux or MacOS are able to access that extra USB functionality today? - Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222. * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Built-in-USB-interface-for-K3-tp5084342p5086522.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
