Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
The limitation of using RIT/VFO for pitch adjustment is that it will move the signal out of the narrowed passband of the filter or APF. A pitch control will adjust the signal's pitch over a wide range even after it has been centered in a very narrow filter. My understanding is that the K4 will allow you to hear the pitch of the signal as it is adjusted. (The K3 PITCH control masks the signal while being adjusted, so you can only hear the effect on the signal when you disengage it.) 73, Drew AF2Z On 03/15/21 14:26, KENT TRIMBLE wrote: Just a personal observation, but for me, anyway, the optimum pitch varies. What seemed optimum yesterday is different today. What seemed optimum this morning won't be optimum this evening. What seemed optimum on one rig is not optimum on another rig. What seemed optimum on 20 meters is not optimum on 80 meters. What seemed optimum from speakers won't be optimum from headphones. And most importantly, what seemed optimum during one QSO won't necessarily be optimum during the next QSO. That's why RIT is such a valuable receiver accessory. After zeroing the transmitter to the incoming signal, the RIT is adjusted for wherever the peak seems to be at that given moment. And continual re-adjustment may be necessary as QSB, QRN, signal polarity, signal drifting, and other factors come into play. For me, anyway, that's the way it seems to work. 73, Kent K9ZTV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
On 3/15/2021 10:22 AM, Louandzip via Elecraft wrote: I've not presented "arguments," only science. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Just a personal observation, but for me, anyway, the optimum pitch varies. What seemed optimum yesterday is different today. What seemed optimum this morning won't be optimum this evening. What seemed optimum on one rig is not optimum on another rig. What seemed optimum on 20 meters is not optimum on 80 meters. What seemed optimum from speakers won't be optimum from headphones. And most importantly, what seemed optimum during one QSO won't necessarily be optimum during the next QSO. That's why RIT is such a valuable receiver accessory. After zeroing the transmitter to the incoming signal, the RIT is adjusted for wherever the peak seems to be at that given moment. And continual re-adjustment may be necessary as QSB, QRN, signal polarity, signal drifting, and other factors come into play. For me, anyway, that's the way it seems to work. 73, Kent K9ZTV -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Hi all, I too find a lower pitch better as I get older. However, for me, weighting is >the< factor in ease of copy. Some fists I struggle to copy at 15 WPM, but when the weighting is just "right", whole words just pop into my head at most any speed up to ~30 WPM. I have analyzed with a CPO what meets that criteria, and have concluded that significantly longer dahs, and shorter spaces between characters is what is "right". I'm sure my "right" is likely to sound like an abomination to some others..I'd love to know more about what is going on in my head vs others under these conditions. "CW and the brain" would make a great thesis in my view. Bob WB0POQ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
I guess I'll play the contrarian here. Back in '65 when I first got licensed I used 1kHz! For a long time I was using 800Hz, but nowadays I like 700 Hz. I understand the arguments and have unscientifically experimented with lower at times, including down to 300 or so, but it sounds kinda lugubrious and in the situation I've tried I've not noticed any consequential improvement in my ability to copy in QRM/N. I played the flute and piccolo for many years (and contrarianly, the baritone sax) and that might contribute to my predilection for high frequencies and frequency discrimination, or maybe it was the other way around, IDK. Lou W7HV On Monday, March 15, 2021, 8:57:44 AM MDT, Michael K Bottles via Elecraft wrote: Interesting comments. In the late 1960’s the late Harvey Hetland (WA6KZI/N6MM) told me exactly the same thing: a lower tone was better for copying CW. For a long time I was at 450-500, now that I am in my 70’s I am down around 400-420. I guess Harvey was right way back then. Kim - K7IM Sent from my iPad > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Interesting comments. In the late 1960’s the late Harvey Hetland (WA6KZI/N6MM) told me exactly the same thing: a lower tone was better for copying CW. For a long time I was at 450-500, now that I am in my 70’s I am down around 400-420. I guess Harvey was right way back then. Kim - K7IM Sent from my iPad > On Mar 15, 2021, at 07:47, KE8G wrote: > > Yes, I agree! > > I had brought up the same subject in the CWops Group a while back and found > the same thing. When I started out in ham radio 40+ years ago, my CW > sidetone was around 700-750 Hz, a very nice sweet spot. As I grew older, > the sidetone frequency has been decreasing. Now at 70 years old, I am at > 420 Hz and that's the new sweet spot. > > I did an unscientific study by operating the Wednesday CWTs at different > sidetone frequencies, just to see if there was a difference. Believe me, > there was! As I increased the frequency, my effectiveness of hearing the > CW signals and separating them decreased. I finally stopped at 700 Hz, as > I was convinced that my hearing had changed and the lower frequency was > definitely better for my ears. > > 73 de Jim - KE8G > >> On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 7:13 PM Chris R. NW6V wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 5:45 PM Jim Brown >> wrote: >>> On 3/13/2021 10:48 AM, Sverre Holm (LA3ZA) wrote: A CW sidetone pitch of 400 Hz is consistent with what little research >>> there is on this. A paper from 1992 says that "/All subjects improved their recognition as the frequency was lowered to 500 Hz, some even at 250 >> Hz. >>> As a retired designer of large sound systems, I had to learn a lot about >>> acoustics and psychoacoustics (the science of how humans' ear/brain >>> interprets what we hear). That science tells us that, like most of our >>> senses, hearing is logarithmic both with respect to frequency and >>> loudness. This means that our discrimination of one frequency as >>> compared to another increases with decreasing frequency. That is, we are >>> better able to separate signals from each other with RX pitch set to >>> lower frequencies. >>> 73, Jim K9YC >> Exactly right. >> I have screaming-loud tinnitus at 1700hz - which is louder than >> conversation, and rises and falls in pitch and volume with every >> heartbeat... Fun, fun. >> Changing sidetone from 800 to 400 made a HUGE difference in my ability to >> copy through the chaos. I did so after reading an article 2 or 3 years ago >> - perhaps those referenced, but I thought it was done by the USAF for >> intercept operators in the late 60's - I may be mistaken. >> ut for those who might not get the implications of what Jim said: our >> perceptions depend less on absolute values than on the difference between >> two values. That's why when you get "hot" with a fever, you "feel cold" >> (and want heat, blankets, etc.): the outside air is now "colder" with >> respect to your skin temp. >> In terms of Morse, if the signal you're listening to is at 800 Hz, and the >> interfering signal (or even the tone of the white noise) is at 700 Hz, the >> 100hz difference amounts to just 12%. However, if the desired signal is at >> 400 Hz, and the interfering signal at 300, that 100hz difference is now >> 25%. At 300/200, it's 50%. Bigger differences are easier to copy. >> I did have to reprogram myself to listen at the lower frequency - >> familiarity had bred contentment. >> 73 Chris NW6V >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to ke8g@gmail.com > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to k...@icloud.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
__ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Yes, I agree! I had brought up the same subject in the CWops Group a while back and found the same thing. When I started out in ham radio 40+ years ago, my CW sidetone was around 700-750 Hz, a very nice sweet spot. As I grew older, the sidetone frequency has been decreasing. Now at 70 years old, I am at 420 Hz and that's the new sweet spot. I did an unscientific study by operating the Wednesday CWTs at different sidetone frequencies, just to see if there was a difference. Believe me, there was! As I increased the frequency, my effectiveness of hearing the CW signals and separating them decreased. I finally stopped at 700 Hz, as I was convinced that my hearing had changed and the lower frequency was definitely better for my ears. 73 de Jim - KE8G On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 7:13 PM Chris R. NW6V wrote: > On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 5:45 PM Jim Brown > wrote: > > > On 3/13/2021 10:48 AM, Sverre Holm (LA3ZA) wrote: > > > A CW sidetone pitch of 400 Hz is consistent with what little research > > there > > > is on this. A paper from 1992 says that "/All subjects improved their > > > recognition as the frequency was lowered to 500 Hz, some even at 250 > Hz. > > > > As a retired designer of large sound systems, I had to learn a lot about > > acoustics and psychoacoustics (the science of how humans' ear/brain > > interprets what we hear). That science tells us that, like most of our > > senses, hearing is logarithmic both with respect to frequency and > > loudness. This means that our discrimination of one frequency as > > compared to another increases with decreasing frequency. That is, we are > > better able to separate signals from each other with RX pitch set to > > lower frequencies. > > > > 73, Jim K9YC > > Exactly right. > > I have screaming-loud tinnitus at 1700hz - which is louder than > conversation, and rises and falls in pitch and volume with every > heartbeat... Fun, fun. > > Changing sidetone from 800 to 400 made a HUGE difference in my ability to > copy through the chaos. I did so after reading an article 2 or 3 years ago > - perhaps those referenced, but I thought it was done by the USAF for > intercept operators in the late 60's - I may be mistaken. > > ut for those who might not get the implications of what Jim said: our > perceptions depend less on absolute values than on the difference between > two values. That's why when you get "hot" with a fever, you "feel cold" > (and want heat, blankets, etc.): the outside air is now "colder" with > respect to your skin temp. > > In terms of Morse, if the signal you're listening to is at 800 Hz, and the > interfering signal (or even the tone of the white noise) is at 700 Hz, the > 100hz difference amounts to just 12%. However, if the desired signal is at > 400 Hz, and the interfering signal at 300, that 100hz difference is now > 25%. At 300/200, it's 50%. Bigger differences are easier to copy. > > I did have to reprogram myself to listen at the lower frequency - > familiarity had bred contentment. > > 73 Chris NW6V > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to ke8g@gmail.com > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 5:45 PM Jim Brown wrote: > like most of our > senses, hearing is logarithmic both with respect to frequency and > loudness. This means that our discrimination of one frequency as > compared to another increases with decreasing frequency this is the Weber-Fechner law. It is claimed to hold true for physical perceptions, e.g a blindfolded person’s perception of an increase in a weight he is holding is proportional to the percentage increases, not to the absolute amount of weight added. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weber%E2%80%93Fechner_law 73, Tony KT0NY __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 5:45 PM Jim Brown wrote: > On 3/13/2021 10:48 AM, Sverre Holm (LA3ZA) wrote: > > A CW sidetone pitch of 400 Hz is consistent with what little research > there > > is on this. A paper from 1992 says that "/All subjects improved their > > recognition as the frequency was lowered to 500 Hz, some even at 250 Hz. > > As a retired designer of large sound systems, I had to learn a lot about > acoustics and psychoacoustics (the science of how humans' ear/brain > interprets what we hear). That science tells us that, like most of our > senses, hearing is logarithmic both with respect to frequency and > loudness. This means that our discrimination of one frequency as > compared to another increases with decreasing frequency. That is, we are > better able to separate signals from each other with RX pitch set to > lower frequencies. > > 73, Jim K9YC Exactly right. I have screaming-loud tinnitus at 1700hz - which is louder than conversation, and rises and falls in pitch and volume with every heartbeat... Fun, fun. Changing sidetone from 800 to 400 made a HUGE difference in my ability to copy through the chaos. I did so after reading an article 2 or 3 years ago - perhaps those referenced, but I thought it was done by the USAF for intercept operators in the late 60's - I may be mistaken. ut for those who might not get the implications of what Jim said: our perceptions depend less on absolute values than on the difference between two values. That's why when you get "hot" with a fever, you "feel cold" (and want heat, blankets, etc.): the outside air is now "colder" with respect to your skin temp. In terms of Morse, if the signal you're listening to is at 800 Hz, and the interfering signal (or even the tone of the white noise) is at 700 Hz, the 100hz difference amounts to just 12%. However, if the desired signal is at 400 Hz, and the interfering signal at 300, that 100hz difference is now 25%. At 300/200, it's 50%. Bigger differences are easier to copy. I did have to reprogram myself to listen at the lower frequency - familiarity had bred contentment. 73 Chris NW6V __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Yup, I have a notch at the old sweep frequency as well... :) 73, and thanks, Dave (NK7Z) https://www.nk7z.net ARRL Volunteer Examiner ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources On 3/14/21 4:13 PM, Brian D wrote: Iworked for years on 405 line TV transmitters. I had a notch of at least 40dB at 10.125khz. I was surprised how quickly it disappeared when 405 line TV closed down, to be replaced by a rolloff at 16kHz. I now roll off much lower, and keep moving my default cw sidetone as it seems to produce a notch after a few contests, I'm currently at 650Hz but will try 700 again soon. Dave Cole wrote: One of the most common forms of hearing loss starts at the high frequencies and works its way down with age, but that's far from universal. When one or more notches develop at certain frequencies, it's often the result of noise exposure at work. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Iworked for years on 405 line TV transmitters. I had a notch of at least 40dB at 10.125khz. I was surprised how quickly it disappeared when 405 line TV closed down, to be replaced by a rolloff at 16kHz. I now roll off much lower, and keep moving my default cw sidetone as it seems to produce a notch after a few contests, I'm currently at 650Hz but will try 700 again soon. Dave Cole wrote: > > One of the most common forms of hearing loss starts at the high > > frequencies and works its way down with age, but that's far from > > universal. When one or more notches develop at certain frequencies, it's > > often the result of noise exposure at work. > > -- Brian D G3VGZ YarmEngland __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Yup, I sat close to a Linkurt Microwave transmitter for about 15 years, (the power supply was an early switcher, and hence very loud), then next to three Ampex VR1200's VTRs... All are horrific noisemakers. 73, and thanks, Dave (NK7Z) https://www.nk7z.net ARRL Volunteer Examiner ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources On 3/13/21 11:15 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On 3/13/2021 9:37 PM, Dave Cole wrote: I had a hearing test many years ago, and asked to see the results. Turns out I had a null at some frequency I don't remember right now, but it was exactly where I had selected my sidetone to be... My guess is because I heard less noise there... Anyway-- I re-selected a new sidetone, lower in frequency, and on a small peak... My CW speed for copy increased probably 10-15%. One of the most common forms of hearing loss starts at the high frequencies and works its way down with age, but that's far from universal. When one or more notches develop at certain frequencies, it's often the result of noise exposure at work. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
As a result of "adventures" in my 20's, the entire audio spectrum is a "notch" with a peak around 590-600 Hz [see K9YC's last sentence]. That's where I put my sidetone/pitch. Around 1990 or so, I built a little plywood cube with a Mother Bell insert from a standard black telephone in it. I filled the box with cotton balls and put it on the side of the rig, pointing up. Over-the-ear headphones had become ubiquitous and the old "cans" were no longer available so the "headphones on the desk" trick didn't work well. It was surprising what I could copy with the little speaker that was mush with the phones on. 73, Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW Sparks NV DM09dn Washoe County On 3/13/2021 11:15 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On 3/13/2021 9:37 PM, Dave Cole wrote: I had a hearing test many years ago, and asked to see the results. Turns out I had a null at some frequency I don't remember right now, but it was exactly where I had selected my sidetone to be... My guess is because I heard less noise there... Anyway-- I re-selected a new sidetone, lower in frequency, and on a small peak... My CW speed for copy increased probably 10-15%. One of the most common forms of hearing loss starts at the high frequencies and works its way down with age, but that's far from universal. When one or more notches develop at certain frequencies, it's often the result of noise exposure at work. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k6...@foothill.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
So, you can hear the CTCSS tones? 😁 73, Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW Sparks NV DM09dn Washoe County On 3/13/2021 4:47 PM, Mike Cizek W0VTT wrote: As a bass clef guy my entire life, I have my sidetone set at 300 Hz. Sometimes wish it would go lower. 73, Mike Cizek W0VTT Retired Bass Trombonist __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Anymore I find that my hearing (except for that pesky tinnitus) rolls off around 1800 hz. I can't hear my auduo in the monitor if I use a tone that high anyway. On Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 04:39 E.H. Russell wrote: > FWIW At my age hearing of both ears starts to roll off in the 4khz range. > I can remember when the upper limit was 20+khz. I'm a bass player so my > hearing is quite acute at low frequencies. However for CW I prefer to copy > at about 625hz. This is with filters set in the 50-500hz range. If I try to > copy at a lower frequency the signal tends to get shrouded by noise. I have > not specifically tested the ability to discriminate close signals though. > > ED / W2RF > > > > > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > On Behalf Of Jim Brown > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2021 3:16 AM > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch > > On 3/13/2021 9:37 PM, Dave Cole wrote: > > I had a hearing test many years ago, and asked to see the results. > > Turns out I had a null at some frequency I don't remember right now, > > but it was exactly where I had selected my sidetone to be... My guess > > is because I heard less noise there... Anyway-- > > > > I re-selected a new sidetone, lower in frequency, and on a small peak... > > My CW speed for copy increased probably 10-15%. > > One of the most common forms of hearing loss starts at the high > frequencies and works its way down with age, but that's far from universal. > When one or more notches develop at certain frequencies, it's often the > result of noise exposure at work. > > 73, Jim K9YC > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to e...@qrv.com > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to jimk...@gmail.com > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
FWIW At my age hearing of both ears starts to roll off in the 4khz range. I can remember when the upper limit was 20+khz. I'm a bass player so my hearing is quite acute at low frequencies. However for CW I prefer to copy at about 625hz. This is with filters set in the 50-500hz range. If I try to copy at a lower frequency the signal tends to get shrouded by noise. I have not specifically tested the ability to discriminate close signals though. ED / W2RF -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2021 3:16 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch On 3/13/2021 9:37 PM, Dave Cole wrote: > I had a hearing test many years ago, and asked to see the results. > Turns out I had a null at some frequency I don't remember right now, > but it was exactly where I had selected my sidetone to be... My guess > is because I heard less noise there... Anyway-- > > I re-selected a new sidetone, lower in frequency, and on a small peak... > My CW speed for copy increased probably 10-15%. One of the most common forms of hearing loss starts at the high frequencies and works its way down with age, but that's far from universal. When one or more notches develop at certain frequencies, it's often the result of noise exposure at work. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to e...@qrv.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
On 3/13/2021 9:37 PM, Dave Cole wrote: I had a hearing test many years ago, and asked to see the results. Turns out I had a null at some frequency I don't remember right now, but it was exactly where I had selected my sidetone to be... My guess is because I heard less noise there... Anyway-- I re-selected a new sidetone, lower in frequency, and on a small peak... My CW speed for copy increased probably 10-15%. One of the most common forms of hearing loss starts at the high frequencies and works its way down with age, but that's far from universal. When one or more notches develop at certain frequencies, it's often the result of noise exposure at work. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Jim, Here is an interesting story: I had a hearing test many years ago, and asked to see the results. Turns out I had a null at some frequency I don't remember right now, but it was exactly where I had selected my sidetone to be... My guess is because I heard less noise there... Anyway-- I re-selected a new sidetone, lower in frequency, and on a small peak... My CW speed for copy increased probably 10-15%. Now whenever I get a hearing test, I ask for a copy, and put the sidetone where my highest peak is, within the range Elecraft allows for sidetone. 73, and thanks, Dave (NK7Z) https://www.nk7z.net ARRL Volunteer Examiner ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources On 3/13/21 3:44 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On 3/13/2021 10:48 AM, Sverre Holm (LA3ZA) wrote: A CW sidetone pitch of 400 Hz is consistent with what little research there is on this. A paper from 1992 says that "/All subjects improved their recognition as the frequency was lowered to 500 Hz, some even at 250 Hz. As a retired designer of large sound systems, I had to learn a lot about acoustics and psychoacoustics (the science of how humans' ear/brain interprets what we hear). That science tells us that, like most of our senses, hearing is logarithmic both with respect to frequency and loudness. This means that our discrimination of one frequency as compared to another increases with decreasing frequency. That is, we are better able to separate signals from each other with RX pitch set to lower frequencies. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
On 3/13/2021 4:06 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote: Jim, that’s an interesting bit of information. Is that the case even for people who have excellent hearing at higher frequencies? In other words, would people with excellent hearing at higher frequencies also benefit from using a lower frequency side tone? Yes. 73, Jim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
My default sidetone pitch is 440 Hz, which is plenty sufficient (for me) to discriminate between two very close signals signals, if they are not too unequal in strength. I am more interested in choosing the optimum pitch for particular filter bandwidths and QRN conditions rather than for discriminating between multiple stations. I suppose the wpm speed of the CW signal might also come into play in optimum pitch selection. This is probably more complicated than just "lower is better". I'm looking forward to "live" adjustment of signal pitch on the K4. Seems to me that adjusting the pitch of the signal would be the natural final tweak needed to enhance it. 73, Drew AF2Z On 03/13/21 18:44, Jim Brown wrote: On 3/13/2021 10:48 AM, Sverre Holm (LA3ZA) wrote: A CW sidetone pitch of 400 Hz is consistent with what little research there is on this. A paper from 1992 says that "/All subjects improved their recognition as the frequency was lowered to 500 Hz, some even at 250 Hz. As a retired designer of large sound systems, I had to learn a lot about acoustics and psychoacoustics (the science of how humans' ear/brain interprets what we hear). That science tells us that, like most of our senses, hearing is logarithmic both with respect to frequency and loudness. This means that our discrimination of one frequency as compared to another increases with decreasing frequency. That is, we are better able to separate signals from each other with RX pitch set to lower frequencies. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to pu...@af2z.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
As a bass clef guy my entire life, I have my sidetone set at 300 Hz. Sometimes wish it would go lower. 73, Mike Cizek W0VTT Retired Bass Trombonist -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Dave Fugleberg Sent: Saturday, 13 March, 2021 18:07 To: Elecraft List Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch Jim, that’s an interesting bit of information. Is that the case even for people who have excellent hearing at higher frequencies? In other words, would people with excellent hearing at higher frequencies also benefit from using a lower frequency side tone? On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 5:45 PM Jim Brown wrote: > On 3/13/2021 10:48 AM, Sverre Holm (LA3ZA) wrote: > > A CW sidetone pitch of 400 Hz is consistent with what little > > research > there > > is on this. A paper from 1992 says that "/All subjects improved > > their recognition as the frequency was lowered to 500 Hz, some even at 250 > > Hz. > > As a retired designer of large sound systems, I had to learn a lot > about acoustics and psychoacoustics (the science of how humans' > ear/brain interprets what we hear). That science tells us that, like > most of our senses, hearing is logarithmic both with respect to > frequency and loudness. This means that our discrimination of one > frequency as compared to another increases with decreasing frequency. > That is, we are better able to separate signals from each other with > RX pitch set to lower frequencies. > > 73, Jim K9YC > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to > dave.w...@gmail.com > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to mgci...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Copying CW and Pitch
Jim, that’s an interesting bit of information. Is that the case even for people who have excellent hearing at higher frequencies? In other words, would people with excellent hearing at higher frequencies also benefit from using a lower frequency side tone? On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 5:45 PM Jim Brown wrote: > On 3/13/2021 10:48 AM, Sverre Holm (LA3ZA) wrote: > > A CW sidetone pitch of 400 Hz is consistent with what little research > there > > is on this. A paper from 1992 says that "/All subjects improved their > > recognition as the frequency was lowered to 500 Hz, some even at 250 Hz. > > As a retired designer of large sound systems, I had to learn a lot about > acoustics and psychoacoustics (the science of how humans' ear/brain > interprets what we hear). That science tells us that, like most of our > senses, hearing is logarithmic both with respect to frequency and > loudness. This means that our discrimination of one frequency as > compared to another increases with decreasing frequency. That is, we are > better able to separate signals from each other with RX pitch set to > lower frequencies. > > 73, Jim K9YC > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to dave.w...@gmail.com > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
