Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Richard Fjeld]

Hi Guy,

(Interesting, and nice writing, BTW)
I share your experience with batteries, only from the Bell side of 
things.  We ran the major switching centers you described.
We had individual cells that held 50 gallons of acid in each cell. A 
graph was kept for each cell.  They lasted many years.


My reply is addressing your comments *_only_* about 'floating' lead acid 
batteries on the 12 volt line.


Yes, you are correct with your statements about using a three step 
charging process for best charge.  I have been using a
lead acid boat battery floating across my 12V DC line to allow me to 
quickly end a qso, and properly shut down my K3
during a power outage. Most of the time the outage is short and I can 
resume my qso as if nothing happened.
I do not otherwise discharge/recharge it.  (My concern is hydrogen gas). 
Yes, a UPS can work.  I trust this arrangement more.


A deep cycle boat battery is intended for charge/dis-charge cycles 
repeatedly. It sometimes stays in a discharged state for hours or days
in high heat or cold before getting recharged again at a single step 
rate.  Despite these conditions, they last pretty well but decline 
gradually.
A deep cycle boat battery may be overkill for me if I don't intend to 
operate with it, but who knows what could happen?


Once again about lead acid batteries, if optimum is the goal, then I 
think the biggest thing we lack in our consumer
batteries today is not being able to monitor or charge individual cells. 
I prefer cells with removable caps for maintenance also.
How else can one tell what the specific gravity is, or the electrolyte 
level?   I can remember when car batteries
had the bus exposed so we could read the individual cell voltages. It 
was common practice to apply a  'boost-charge'
to a weak cell to bring the voltage up. I hate to see all the batteries 
becoming 'maintenance free'.   But DSFDF.


Dick, n0ce


On 7/15/2016 5:38 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

My first encounter with the rather complex issues of battery floating and
discharge were with AT Long Lines in the 60's, where we had such things
as 10,000 ampere 12 VDC supplies for many thousands of tube filaments, with
delta 440 AC driving huge motor generators in parallel, and strings of low
gravity 2' x 2' x 5' single cell batteries floating across the discharge
bus, and end cells to switch into the string to maintain 12 volts as the
batteries went into their normal discharge curves.

Carelessness in the battery room could get you burned, blinded, possibly
killed. Also having a major switching center go down because of batteries
in Washington, DC, could get one in a lot of trouble with various branches
of government. We had Bell Laboratories, Bell System Practices, and lots of
management in our ear all the time about how to do the batteries. Zero
tolerance for battery screw-ups, for any reason.



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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Hi Wes, et al.

I went looking through emails from you to find the reference, because I
wanted to read it. I did not locate or recognize the reference in those
emails. That aside...

For conversation purposes I'll begin this assuming a flooded wet cell
battery. That's because I have a pair of T-105 6 volt 225AH cells in series
in my RV to supply the "house" "12" VDC needs. T-105's have been very
common in golf carts for decades. In larger RV's it's not uncommon to see
four T-105's in series parallel to supply house 12VDC. T-105's are large
deep cycle flooded wet cells. They are an easy choice for an RV's house DC
circuits. It's a very mature application, over 30 years of this scheme in
RV's.

An RV has extensive "12" volt wiring. The actual satisfactory running DC
voltage on the house DC wiring can be 11 to 14.4 volts. To supply the house
DC from RV park AC mains, the RV uses a high amperage three stage battery
charger, with anywhere from 35 to 100 amps bulk charge rate depending on
the specific battery type and configuration. Nomenclature in the RV
business for this charger is "converter/charger" which I will denote
hereafter with "C/C".

The C/C serves two functions: 1) Supplies all the myriad 12 volt RV stuff:
lights, blowers, fans, plus controls for fridge, heat, hot water heater,
just to name a few. It converts the park AC to DC. 2) Charges the batteries
to keep them ready for a common and deliberate operation of the RV without
an AC voltage source, as in a park without electric hookups during
no-generators-running quiet time. It's very common to run an AC generator
from early afternoon until after supper to supply air conditioning, power
the microwave, and recharge batteries. Then the generator is shut down and
all runs off the house batteries until the next afternoon. A lot of us keep
small inverters, 12VDC to 120V, to power cellphone chargers, game boxes,
etc, when on batteries.

The charging stages are:

1) Bulk charge, current limited. Where up to 80% of the battery energy
capacity is replaced by the charger at maximum steady current amp rating of
the charger. This charge current continues until the battery voltage
reaches 14.4 volts.

2) Absorption charge, voltage limited. Voltage is held at a constant 14.4
volts and the current declines until the battery is 98% charged.

3) Float charge, voltage and current limited. Not more than 13.4 volts and
usually less than 1 amp of current **into the battery**. This in time will
bring the battery to 100% charged or close to it. This maintenance float
charge will not boil or heat batteries but will maintain the batteries at
100% readiness and prevent cycling during long term inactivity. Some Gel
Cell and AGM batteries may require different settings or chargers specific
to the battery. This is related to differing optimal voltages and heat
sensitivities. But the rough concept is the same.

When the C/C is running from RV park or generator AC, the RV's DC bus is
supplied from the C/C. In float charge the C/C will supply the RV DC at
13.4 VDC. If the AC cuts out at the park or the generator goes off, the
house DC circuits will begin to discharge the battery. The battery voltage
will quickly drop to the normal battery discharge curve in the upper 12.x
range and continue down.

When the AC comes back on, before it kicks in, the C/C detects that the
battery is down on the discharge curve and re-initiates at step 1).

The stink when many hams talk about operating their shack with a battery
float, is that they envision hooking a battery to the output of a plain
single voltage Astron RS35 or some such, the usual 13.8 volts regulated,
fixed supply. One cannot properly care for a battery this way, because it
needs the three charge stages for good health. If what one meant by float
was a "single voltage float", then no, one cannot *properly* float a
battery on one's ham station. After the first discharge event, the battery
will not recharge to full charge. It needs the bulk charge voltage to
recharge.

However, I would not call my RV a "battery float", because "float" is only
*one* charge condition of the three RV C/C charge states. But I do have ham
friends who call that "float" because that's how the wires run. This little
double meaning can make for some confused conversations until the specifics
are brought to light.

If what you meant is battery always in the circuit, no blip switching
interruptions from the "uninterruptible" UPS, then yes, you can use the RV
style setup in a ham station, **with a list of caveats**. You probably do
not want to use T-105's for a number of reasons. But you will need to
obtain a three or four stage charger setup designed for an appropriate
battery.

Caveats:

a) You need an RV style charger-converter, or equivalent specifically
matched to the battery. Some equivalents have been described in this
thread.

b) The bulk charge rate of the C/C must match the battery normal charge
maximum. More C/C bulk charge amps than the battery max 

Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Clay Autery]

Well, please pardon my inquiry.  I must have missed your earlier posting
of it.  Have a nice day.  O:-)

__
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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/12/2016 11:29 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
> I've given the reference already.
>
> I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, I'm just the messenger.  I
> suppose that when I posted my first message I should have added,
> "According to the vendor, you cannot..."
>
> On 7/12/2016 6:39 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> I'd like to see the reference on that one, too.  As I EVENTUALLY will
>> add high Ah batts to run pretty much all my household electronics, et
>> al.
>> Even if this is a true issue, no matter.  Will just have to engineer
>> around it 2x batts with power consumption fed "clock" and
>> auto-switching comes to mind as a 1st brainstorm.  :-)

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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Wes Stewart]

I've given the reference already.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, I'm just the messenger.  I suppose 
that when I posted my first message I should have added, "According to the 
vendor, you cannot..."


On 7/12/2016 6:39 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

I'd like to see the reference on that one, too.  As I EVENTUALLY will
add high Ah batts to run pretty much all my household electronics, et al.
Even if this is a true issue, no matter.  Will just have to engineer
around it 2x batts with power consumption fed "clock" and
auto-switching comes to mind as a 1st brainstorm.  :-)



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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Clay Autery]

That seals it...  HAM "quiet" charging/operation system is definitely on
the list now.

I bought the little 2A charger  to get me by with my little 12 Ah batt
for use with RFI/noise hunting for now.

But I'm going to start reading/researching and putting together a
requirements list for a "proper" charging/operating system for the
LiFePO batts.  I like the idea/concept of the PowerGate, RigRunner,
etc...  And it would be nice to have a system that could run from a
large cap LFP and still charge...  while during non-op periods could
charge to capacity and thence complete the cell balancing...  (I'm
assuming that is how it works generally).

Time to learn something new...  :-)

As an aside...  Jim, I think I read in one of the Bioenno batt docs that
the output voltage is somewhere around 12.8 VDC...  so it is "closer" to
nominal...  A "nice to have feature" in a system WOULD be to be able to
find a way to "boost" the voltage to 13.8+ to realize the lower full
power IMD, WHILE simultaneously keeping the power system "quiet".  Not a
priority right now.

__
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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/11/2016 4:55 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On Mon,7/11/2016 1:49 PM, Marc Veeneman via  Elecraft wrote:
>> But beware the charger RFI.  The 10 amp chargers from BioennoPower
>> are strong generators and I can't use them in the shack to recharge
>> either the battery in use or any other battery while I'm on 80 meter CW.
>
> Thanks for all of your input, Marc. Be sure to tell BioennoPower that
> the charger they sold you is unacceptable, and return it for credit.
> I've already told them it's a problem that they must solve if they are
> to be successful in the ham marketplace, but they should hear it from
> other customers.
>
> When I asked, they told me that the chargers they sell are noisy, so I
> didn't buy one. They told me that one of their dealers out east had
> recommended using the PowerGate jumpered for AGM batteries with a
> linear supply adjusted to provide the charging current, and that they
> would consider that an in-warranty setup. I'm currently doing that
> with a 100Ah battery I just bought, but I'm not thrilled with it.
>
> The difference between 12V and 14.2 volts doesn't matter for ham gear
> except that higher voltage reduces IMD in the K3 output stage at full
> power output.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Clay Autery]

Sounds like an engineering challenge to me...  if it hasn't been
answered "open source" before I get to that step, one that I might take
on...  A flexible design that is "quiet" and treat the LiFePO
battery(ies) as they "need" for maximal lifespan, and allowing them to
be used for operation w/ "float", and/or standard charging... CC/CV
charging PLUS.

__
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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/11/2016 3:49 PM, Marc Veeneman via Elecraft wrote:
> Actually you can charge and operate at the same time.  Basic charge voltage 
> is 13.2 and finishing voltage is 14.6 volts.  I've never had a problem with 
> any Elecraft (or other) ham gear at either voltage.  
>
> Float charge would work just fine but I wouldn't make a habit of it.  The 
> control modules wired between cells need 14.6 volts (for 4S configurations) 
> to trigger their cell balancing ability.  Lead acid cells balance 
> automatically when in series.  LiFePO4 cells do not.
>
> But beware the charger RFI.  The 10 amp chargers from BioennoPower are strong 
> generators and I can't use them in the shack to recharge either the battery 
> in use or any other battery while I'm on 80 meter CW.  
>
> I'm testing some alternative high amp chargers and have found at least one 
> that is RFI quiet.  I'll be testing a second, less expensive, alternative 
> this week.
> -- Marc
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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Clay Autery]

I'd like to see the reference on that one, too.  As I EVENTUALLY will
add high Ah batts to run pretty much all my household electronics, et al.
Even if this is a true issue, no matter.  Will just have to engineer
around it 2x batts with power consumption fed "clock" and
auto-switching comes to mind as a 1st brainstorm.  :-)

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/11/2016 3:46 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On Mon,7/11/2016 12:58 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose
>> anyway, but based on this thread my interest was piqued about using
>> one of these in the shack to cover short power outages.  I've learned
>> that you CANNOT charge and feed a load at the same time, i.e float
>> charge.
>
> Hi Wes,
>
> Where did you learn this?  References I can study? I looked and didn't
> find anything saying that, and that's what I plan to do with the 100Ah
> battery I just bought.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Walter Underwood]

The KXPA100 is rated to produce 100W at 13.8V or more. I’ve heard reports of 
lower power at lower voltages.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Jul 11, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Marc Veeneman via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Actually you can charge and operate at the same time.  Basic charge voltage 
> is 13.2 and finishing voltage is 14.6 volts.  I've never had a problem with 
> any Elecraft (or other) ham gear at either voltage.  
> 
> Float charge would work just fine but I wouldn't make a habit of it.  The 
> control modules wired between cells need 14.6 volts (for 4S configurations) 
> to trigger their cell balancing ability.  Lead acid cells balance 
> automatically when in series.  LiFePO4 cells do not.
> 
> But beware the charger RFI.  The 10 amp chargers from BioennoPower are strong 
> generators and I can't use them in the shack to recharge either the battery 
> in use or any other battery while I'm on 80 meter CW.  
> 
> I'm testing some alternative high amp chargers and have found at least one 
> that is RFI quiet.  I'll be testing a second, less expensive, alternative 
> this week.
> -- 
> Marc
> 
> 
>> On Jul 11, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:
>> 
>> Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose anyway, 
>> but based on this thread my interest was piqued about using one of these in 
>> the shack to cover short power outages.  I've learned that you CANNOT charge 
>> and feed a load at the same time, i.e float charge.
>> 
>>> On 7/11/2016 5:44 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>>> Thanks again, Jim for linking to this vendor.  Just ordered the 12
>>> Amp/Hr battery they had on promotion with charger to 1) try them out,
>>> and 2) to power the K3s/P3 while RFI, et al hunting with all or most of
>>> the shack service shut down.
>>> 
>>> __
>>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>>> MONTAC Enterprises
>>> (318) 518-1389
>>> 
 On 6/30/2016 11:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
 This sale offers good discounts on some fine backpacking products from
 a ham-friendly company.
 
 73, Jim K9YC
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,7/11/2016 1:49 PM, Marc Veeneman via Elecraft wrote:

But beware the charger RFI.  The 10 amp chargers from BioennoPower are strong 
generators and I can't use them in the shack to recharge either the battery in 
use or any other battery while I'm on 80 meter CW.


Thanks for all of your input, Marc. Be sure to tell BioennoPower that 
the charger they sold you is unacceptable, and return it for credit. 
I've already told them it's a problem that they must solve if they are 
to be successful in the ham marketplace, but they should hear it from 
other customers.


When I asked, they told me that the chargers they sell are noisy, so I 
didn't buy one. They told me that one of their dealers out east had 
recommended using the PowerGate jumpered for AGM batteries with a linear 
supply adjusted to provide the charging current, and that they would 
consider that an in-warranty setup. I'm currently doing that with a 
100Ah battery I just bought, but I'm not thrilled with it.


The difference between 12V and 14.2 volts doesn't matter for ham gear 
except that higher voltage reduces IMD in the K3 output stage at full 
power output.


73, Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Marc Veeneman via Elecraft]

Actually you can charge and operate at the same time.  Basic charge voltage is 
13.2 and finishing voltage is 14.6 volts.  I've never had a problem with any 
Elecraft (or other) ham gear at either voltage.  

Float charge would work just fine but I wouldn't make a habit of it.  The 
control modules wired between cells need 14.6 volts (for 4S configurations) to 
trigger their cell balancing ability.  Lead acid cells balance automatically 
when in series.  LiFePO4 cells do not.

But beware the charger RFI.  The 10 amp chargers from BioennoPower are strong 
generators and I can't use them in the shack to recharge either the battery in 
use or any other battery while I'm on 80 meter CW.  

I'm testing some alternative high amp chargers and have found at least one that 
is RFI quiet.  I'll be testing a second, less expensive, alternative this week.
-- 
Marc


> On Jul 11, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose anyway, 
> but based on this thread my interest was piqued about using one of these in 
> the shack to cover short power outages.  I've learned that you CANNOT charge 
> and feed a load at the same time, i.e float charge.
> 
>> On 7/11/2016 5:44 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> Thanks again, Jim for linking to this vendor.  Just ordered the 12
>> Amp/Hr battery they had on promotion with charger to 1) try them out,
>> and 2) to power the K3s/P3 while RFI, et al hunting with all or most of
>> the shack service shut down.
>> 
>> __
>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>> MONTAC Enterprises
>> (318) 518-1389
>> 
>>> On 6/30/2016 11:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>> This sale offers good discounts on some fine backpacking products from
>>> a ham-friendly company.
>>> 
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Matt Zilmer]

I'd like to know the source of this as well.  My shack power is 100W of 
Siemens PV on the roof, a 10A charge controller diode-ORed with a Samlex 
1235 set to 13.62V.  The output charges a 75AH Optima battery, which 
powers the equipment 24/7.  I've never had any trouble with it in the 
four years I've used it.


73,

matt W6NIA


On 7/11/2016 1:46 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Mon,7/11/2016 12:58 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose 
anyway, but based on this thread my interest was piqued about using 
one of these in the shack to cover short power outages.  I've learned 
that you CANNOT charge and feed a load at the same time, i.e float 
charge.


Hi Wes,

Where did you learn this?  References I can study? I looked and didn't 
find anything saying that, and that's what I plan to do with the 100Ah 
battery I just bought.


73, Jim K9YC

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--
Always store beer in a dark place.  - R. Heinlein

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,7/11/2016 12:58 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose 
anyway, but based on this thread my interest was piqued about using 
one of these in the shack to cover short power outages.  I've learned 
that you CANNOT charge and feed a load at the same time, i.e float charge.


Hi Wes,

Where did you learn this?  References I can study? I looked and didn't 
find anything saying that, and that's what I plan to do with the 100Ah 
battery I just bought.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Wes Stewart]

Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose anyway, but 
based on this thread my interest was piqued about using one of these in the 
shack to cover short power outages.  I've learned that you CANNOT charge and 
feed a load at the same time, i.e float charge.


On 7/11/2016 5:44 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

Thanks again, Jim for linking to this vendor.  Just ordered the 12
Amp/Hr battery they had on promotion with charger to 1) try them out,
and 2) to power the K3s/P3 while RFI, et al hunting with all or most of
the shack service shut down.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/30/2016 11:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

This sale offers good discounts on some fine backpacking products from
a ham-friendly company.

73, Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion

[Clay Autery]

Thanks again, Jim for linking to this vendor.  Just ordered the 12
Amp/Hr battery they had on promotion with charger to 1) try them out,
and 2) to power the K3s/P3 while RFI, et al hunting with all or most of
the shack service shut down.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/30/2016 11:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> This sale offers good discounts on some fine backpacking products from
> a ham-friendly company.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>

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