Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
You only self-certify if you intend to place new goods onto the EEC market, ie you are a manufacturer or importer. David G3UNA - Original Message - From: Julian G4ILO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Couldn't we just self-certify it? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
Don't forget that, aside from CE marking, you are deemed to be techniclly competent as an Advanced licence holder and can therefore build your own kit and operate it within the terms of your licence. You are right in saying that you can import your own kit for your own use and if you sell it, it is not as a business for general sale of lots of these. David G3UNA From: Julian G4ILO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/14 Wed PM 04:31:17 GMT To: elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE On Nov 14, 2007 3:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is acceptable for an importer to certify products as long as he does so within the legal requirments. He can then quite legally fix the appropriate CE label and provide a Certificate of Compliance. I could not comment as to whether W S follow the requirments. Anyone has the right to view the Certificate of Compliance for any product within the EC. The importer then becomes the responsible vendor. But if I'm importing it to use, not to sell, does this matter? The body responsible for CE marking here is Trading Standards. They are unlikely to even find out about it since I am not a trader. Toby makes a valid point as concerns resale, but being pragmatic, we don't live in a bureaucratic police state where officials go through the small ads checking on what people are selling, so whether it's legal or not, it's certainly going to be under the radar. I think the only issue that may concern Elecraft is if it is likely that imports are going to be stopped at customs and returned at their expense. If it's OK for goods to be certified at this end then it obviously isn't illegal to import uncertified goods therefore customs isn't going to be bothered. -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
You are not a vendor, merely a kit builder, you are not in business. However, it's an interesting question. David G3UNA From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/14 Wed PM 04:08:41 GMT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Julian G4ILO [EMAIL PROTECTED], elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE Hallo, The importer then becomes the responsible vendor. Which might be interesting if one ever decided to sell her/his K3, which was imported as a Kit and built in Europe? I wonder... vy 73 de toby - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
On Nov 15, 2007 8:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't forget that, aside from CE marking, you are deemed to be techniclly competent as an Advanced licence holder and can therefore build your own kit and operate it within the terms of your licence. You are right in saying that you can import your own kit for your own use and if you sell it, it is not as a business for general sale of lots of these. Coincidentally the December RadCom EMC column, page 43, has a discussion that is relevant to this. It explains that the regulations apply to goods that are placed on the market or taken into service. New goods sold commercially are placed on the market but (the article states) it is clear from examples like very noisy (and CE marked!) Chinese made switch mode wall warts sold on eBay that the local Trading Standards are doing nothing about enforcement (and from personal knowledge they have neither the manpower nor the technical competence to do so.) Second hand goods sold on eBay or at a flea market are not placed on the market. However, the purchaser is taking it into service and therefore becomes responsible for its EMC compliance. Although, as you say, we as radio hams should be competent to decide whether our equipment meets the standards or not, the average person buying a wall wart battery charger or whatever certainly isn't. Therefore this whole CE marking busines seems to me to be a total waste of time, as it is either unenforced or unenforceable. -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
Therefore this whole CE marking busines seems to me to be a total waste of time, as it is either unenforced or unenforceable. Without wanting to pass judgement on the sense of CE Markings or lack thereof, one must not forget, that (at least in DL) if you want to use a new rig in a new car, then it *must* have a CE Marking. This according the DARC (the German version of the RSGB). vy 73 de toby PS: For the German speakers out there... Source: http://www.darc.de/ - Funkgeräteeinbau in Kraftfahrzeuge wesentlich erleichtert Nach einer Mitteilung des Kraftfahrtbundesamtes in Flensburg wurde durch eine Bekanntmachung im Verkehrsblatt die Richtlinie 2004/104/EG im Bundesgebiet in Kraft gesetzt. Diese Richtlinie ersetzt die 95/54/EG. Das bedeutet, dass alle neuen Funkgeräte in Kraftfahrzeuge eingebaut werden dürfen, die ein CE-Zeichen oder ein E-Zeichen tragen! Eine E-Zulassung der Transceiver ist damit nicht mehr erforderlich. Die CE-Kennzeichnung reicht aus, wenn eine Bescheinigung beiliegt, dass das Funkgerät nicht im Zusammenhang mit der Störfestigkeit (sicherheitsrelevante Funktionen) steht. Als neue Funkgeräte sind die zu bezeichnen, die ab dem 11. Januar 2005 in Verkehr gebracht wurden. Insbesondere betroffen sind hiervon PKW und LKW mit Erstzulassungsdatum ab dem 1. Oktober 2002 sowie Krafträder und Trikes mit Erstzulassungsdatum ab dem 17. Juni 2003. So genannte Altgeräte (vor dem 11.1.2005) werden von der Richtlinie 2004/104/EG nicht mehr erfasst und müssen lediglich die Vorschriften zum Zeitpunkt ihres erstmaligen Inverkehrbringens erfüllen. Einer Weiterverwendung durch wieder Einbau, auch in neuen Kraftfahrzeugen, steht nichts im Wege. - ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
In the past the authorities were concerned with amateurs causing interference to domestic radio/television reception and all other government services. Now it is the amateur that has the problem. We now have to contend with radio interference to our hobby from:- TV's (LCD Plasma), Cable TV, PLT, HomePlug, Switch Mode PSU's either freestanding (wall warts) or in-built(Computer), electronic controls in anything from a central heating boiler to a sewing machine . et .al. It's a bit ironic that, as rigs such as the K3 are now being sold with a superb receive performance that many amateurs are unable to use due to increasing radio spectrum pollution. Many items sold into the domestic market would appear to be either non - compliant, or have a test standard applied that is most advantageous to their products. A lot of items are able to cause HF interference because, the only radiated emissions testing required is carried out above 30MHz. Below 30MHz only the conducted interference on the supply lead is tested. In the UK the enforcing agency is the Trading Standards. They are lacking in funding, manpower and technical knowledge to deal with anything other than life threatening issues (i.e. Lead paint on toys). As far as the EMC part of CE goes, it promised a lot, but has delivered very little Stewart G3RXQ Member RSGB EMC Committee On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:51:20 +, Julian G4ILO wrote: On Nov 15, 2007 8:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't forget that, aside from CE marking, you are deemed to be techniclly competent as an Advanced licence holder and can therefore build your own kit and operate it within the terms of your licence. You are right in saying that you can import your own kit for your own use and if you sell it, it is not as a business for general sale of lots of these. Coincidentally the December RadCom EMC column, page 43, has a discussion that is relevant to this. It explains that the regulations apply to goods that are placed on the market or taken into service. New goods sold commercially are placed on the market but (the article states) it is clear from examples like very noisy (and CE marked!) Chinese made switch mode wall warts sold on eBay that the local Trading Standards are doing nothing about enforcement (and from personal knowledge they have neither the manpower nor the technical competence to do so.) Second hand goods sold on eBay or at a flea market are not placed on the market. However, the purchaser is taking it into service and therefore becomes responsible for its EMC compliance. Although, as you say, we as radio hams should be competent to decide whether our equipment meets the standards or not, the average person buying a wall wart battery charger or whatever certainly isn't. Therefore this whole CE marking busines seems to me to be a total waste of time, as it is either unenforced or unenforceable. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
This is, unfortunately, so true. It is getting to the stage when I wonder how much longer it is possible for someone in my situation to operate a stealth station in a crowded urban housing estate. It is not the limited size of my antennas that is the problem but the interference I have to contend with. I can turn off my electrics and it makes little difference to the noise level, which is often S3-S5 on the K3's rather stingy S meter. As for the situation in Germany, well if that's the law and people will actually check up on it then you have to go along with it. But only a politician could bring about a situation where it is an offense to use equipment that doesn't have a worthless sticker on it. And CE certification is worthless unless it guarantees that the equipment meets a worthwhile standard. I think the only solution that would solve the interference problem would involve type approval of equipment by independent tester. Clearly you can't rely on all manufacturers to self-certify with any degree of honesty. And given the lack of enforcement in the UK there is no reason for anyone to do more than pay lip service to the regulations. No doubt you can buy rolls of self adhesive CE stickers from some Chinese vendor on eBay... But despite the benefits to us hams of type approval, I'm not sure I'd like the extra costs and restricted range of products such a measure would result in. I can remember just how expensive modems were in the 80s when they had to be type approved by the monopoly telecoms provider. -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf On Nov 15, 2007 10:16 AM, Stewart Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past the authorities were concerned with amateurs causing interference to domestic radio/television reception and all other government services. Now it is the amateur that has the problem. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
As for the situation in Germany, well if that's the law and people will actually check up on it then you have to go along with it. Actually what I sent to the reflector was about the German implementation of a European Union regulation, i.e. it is also the law in the France, Italy, Spain, Poland, Sweden, Malta, Greece, the U.K. etc. To see more about 2004/104/EG you could take a look at: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004L0104:EN:NOT Commission Directive 2004/104/EC of 14 October 2004 adapting to technical progress Council Directive 72/245/EEC relating to the radio interference (electromagnetic compatibility) of vehicles and amending Directive 70/156/EEC on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to the type-approval of motor vehicles and their trailersText with EEA relevance If the above makes sense or not: This is one reason why it is important that at least the factory built K3s have a CE Marking. vy 73 de toby ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
Julian G4ILO wrote: Don't forget that, aside from CE marking, you are deemed to be techniclly competent as an Advanced licence holder and can therefore build your own kit and operate it within the terms of your licence. You are right in saying that you can import your own kit for your own use and if you sell it, it is not as a business for general sale of lots of these. Coincidentally the December RadCom EMC column, page 43, has a discussion that is relevant to this. It explains that the regulations apply to goods that are placed on the market or taken into service. New goods sold commercially are placed on the market but (the article states) it is clear from examples like very noisy (and CE marked!) Chinese made switch mode wall warts sold on eBay that the local Trading Standards are doing nothing about enforcement (and from personal knowledge they have neither the manpower nor the technical competence to do so.) Second hand goods sold on eBay or at a flea market are not placed on the market. However, the purchaser is taking it into service and therefore becomes responsible for its EMC compliance. Although, as you say, we as radio hams should be competent to decide whether our equipment meets the standards or not, the average person buying a wall wart battery charger or whatever certainly isn't. Therefore this whole CE marking busines seems to me to be a total waste of time, as it is either unenforced or unenforceable. Sorry, I don't agree. Overall, I think the European EMC regulations have been a success - so much so that we take them for granted. It's always the leakage around the system that gets the publicity, and it only takes one small thing like an unfiltered wall wart to cause problems for us. The vast majority of electronic and electrical appliances coming into European homes are 'mainstream' products from European companies, or from international companies with substantial business operations in Europe. Regardless of where they were actually manufactured, these products do comply with all the relevant product standards. European radio amateurs have definitely benefited from this. The RFI mailing list has frequent horror stories from the USA that just don't happen over here any more. As licensed amateurs we are personally responsible for EMC compliance, the only difference being that we don't have to provide formal demonstrations or documentation. For kits and ready-made amateur radio equipment imported from outside Europe, practical experience is that personal importers are never asked to demonstrate compliance. I can certainly confirm that as an exporter of kits and boards to the rest of Europe, the USA and around the world - in over a thousand transactions, never a single challenge. According to Wayne's posting a couple of weeks ago, Elecraft has already done the testing to demonstrate compliance with the relevant European standards - which the K3 passed easily, of course. As soon as all the necessary documentation has been assembled, they will immediately become legally entitled to attach a CE sticker (they don't have to file it with anyone else). But, quite rightly, that isn't Elecraft's main priority just now. For K3s being imported into Europe at present, that leaves only the most trivial technicality: a product that does in fact meet all the relevant European standards, but doesn't have a CE marking to say so. Worrying about such little things is a symptom of severe K3 deprivation! Fortunately, there is also a complete cure for this condition :-) As soon as the documentation does comes into existence, the owners of unmarked K3s will become legally entitled to attach a CE sticker themselves. They don't need any documentation to do this; it is sufficient to know that valid documents exist. They'll be in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, in a cellar on a planet called Aptos. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
On Nov 15, 2007 11:45 AM, Ian White GM3SEK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As soon as the documentation does comes into existence, the owners of unmarked K3s will become legally entitled to attach a CE sticker themselves. They don't need any documentation to do this; it is sufficient to know that valid documents exist. They'll be in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, in a cellar on a planet called Aptos. Couldn't we just self-certify it? On Nov 15, 2007 12:02 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the above makes sense or not: This is one reason why it is important that at least the factory built K3s have a CE Marking. OK, Toby, I think we'll never agree on the importance of abiding by laws that are not enforced. Here, the police can't even be bothered to do anything about drunken and rowdy behaviour or crazy driving by young people in the town centre at weekends. The thought of them bothering to check if a radio has a CE sticker is simply unimaginable. -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
In the case of vehicles it will be e marking (lower case). David G3UNA From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/15 Thu AM 09:24:45 GMT To: elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE Therefore this whole CE marking busines seems to me to be a total waste of time, as it is either unenforced or unenforceable. Without wanting to pass judgement on the sense of CE Markings or lack thereof, one must not forget, that (at least in DL) if you want to use a new rig in a new car, then it *must* have a CE Marking. This according the DARC (the German version of the RSGB). vy 73 de toby PS: For the German speakers out there... Source: http://www.darc.de/ - Funkgeräteeinbau in Kraftfahrzeuge wesentlich erleichtert Nach einer Mitteilung des Kraftfahrtbundesamtes in Flensburg wurde durch eine Bekanntmachung im Verkehrsblatt die Richtlinie 2004/104/EG im Bundesgebiet in Kraft gesetzt. Diese Richtlinie ersetzt die 95/54/EG. Das bedeutet, dass alle neuen Funkgeräte in Kraftfahrzeuge eingebaut werden dürfen, die ein CE-Zeichen oder ein E-Zeichen tragen! Eine E-Zulassung der Transceiver ist damit nicht mehr erforderlich. Die CE-Kennzeichnung reicht aus, wenn eine Bescheinigung beiliegt, dass das Funkgerät nicht im Zusammenhang mit der Störfestigkeit (sicherheitsrelevante Funktionen) steht. Als neue Funkgeräte sind die zu bezeichnen, die ab dem 11. Januar 2005 in Verkehr gebracht wurden. Insbesondere betroffen sind hiervon PKW und LKW mit Erstzulassungsdatum ab dem 1. Oktober 2002 sowie Krafträder und Trikes mit Erstzulassungsdatum ab dem 17. Juni 2003. So genannte Altgeräte (vor dem 11.1.2005) werden von der Richtlinie 2004/104/EG nicht mehr erfasst und müssen lediglich die Vorschriften zum Zeitpunkt ihres erstmaligen Inverkehrbringens erfüllen. Einer Weiterverwendung durch wieder Einbau, auch in neuen Kraftfahrzeugen, steht nichts im Wege. - ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
Julian G4ILO wrote: As soon as the documentation does comes into existence, the owners of unmarked K3s will become legally entitled to attach a CE sticker themselves. They don't need any documentation to do this; it is sufficient to know that valid documents exist. They'll be in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, in a cellar on a planet called Aptos. Couldn't we just self-certify it? Not just out of thin air. Somebody, somewhere has to do the work. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE - needs e marking too for mobile use
On Nov 15, 2007 2:15 PM, Dave G4AON [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the EU anything added to a car, including radio equipment, must also carry an e mark in addition to a CE mark. More work for Eric and Wayne! Wouldn't that apply only if it is fitted to the vehicle, not perched on the seat and operated while the vehicle is parked? -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE - needs e marking too for mobile use
In the EU anything added to a car, including radio equipment, must also carry an e mark in addition to a CE mark. According to 2004/104/EG, not anymore. A CE Marking plus the correct documentation from the car manufacturer is all that is needed now. vy 73 de toby ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE - needs e marking too for mobile use
Yes, only if the equipment is a permanent part of the vehicle, like the radio/stereo/etc does it need the e mark. David G3UNA From: Dave G4AON [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/15 Thu PM 02:59:07 GMT To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 CE - needs e marking too for mobile use Julian, G4ILO, wrote: Wouldn't that apply only if it is fitted to the vehicle, not perched on the seat and operated while the vehicle is parked? Yes, I am fairly certain that is the case. For a flavour of the legislation, see: http://www.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/tradingstandards/auto.html Phew... 73 Dave, G4AON K3/100 kit now shipped via UPS, ordered 30 April 2007 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE - needs e marking too for mobile use
On Nov 15, 2007 2:59 PM, Dave G4AON [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I am fairly certain that is the case. For a flavour of the legislation, see: http://www.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/tradingstandards/auto.html This is interesting: Which items do not need to be e-marked? [snip] * Equipment installed in their own vehicle by persons who are able to demonstrate competence (for example radio amateurs). However, equipment designed by a commercial producer for use by radio amateurs is not exempt. So I could install my home built radio in my car, and presumably my built-from-a-kit K2 or 3, but if you buy it ready made it needs to be marked. Heck, would our lives really be worse if we didn't have people whose jobs it is to come up with this stuff? -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
Hope the K3's coming into the EU have now got CE certification. I still haven't open mine yet (it arrived at work a couple of hours ago), so I don't know for sure, but Eric wrote that they would not deliver any factory built K3s until he was finished with the CE certification process. And that the kit did not need a CE Marking and could not be certified anyway. Mine is a kit. vy 73 de toby PS: You can find Elecraft's statements about CE Markings in the archives of the reflector. Hope the K3's coming into the EU have now got CE certification. Stewart G3RXQ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
On Nov 14, 2007 12:05 PM, Stewart Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hope the K3's coming into the EU have now got CE certification. It matters not a jot to me. As Toby has said, it doesn't affect kits anyway. But if WS can import any MFJ product (which definitely are not CE certified - I think someone on this reflector confirmed it) and then certify it themselves, I don't see why lack of certification should be an obstacle to anyone in the UK receiving the K3 they ordered, even a built one. -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
It is acceptable for an importer to certify products as long as he does so within the legal requirments. He can then quite legally fix the appropriate CE label and provide a Certificate of Compliance. I could not comment as to whether W S follow the requirments. Anyone has the right to view the Certificate of Compliance for any product within the EC. The importer then becomes the responsible vendor. David G3UNA From: Julian G4ILO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/14 Wed PM 01:32:02 GMT To: elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE On Nov 14, 2007 12:05 PM, Stewart Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hope the K3's coming into the EU have now got CE certification. It matters not a jot to me. As Toby has said, it doesn't affect kits anyway. But if WS can import any MFJ product (which definitely are not CE certified - I think someone on this reflector confirmed it) and then certify it themselves, I don't see why lack of certification should be an obstacle to anyone in the UK receiving the K3 they ordered, even a built one. -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
Hallo, The importer then becomes the responsible vendor. Which might be interesting if one ever decided to sell her/his K3, which was imported as a Kit and built in Europe? I wonder... vy 73 de toby ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CE
On Nov 14, 2007 3:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is acceptable for an importer to certify products as long as he does so within the legal requirments. He can then quite legally fix the appropriate CE label and provide a Certificate of Compliance. I could not comment as to whether W S follow the requirments. Anyone has the right to view the Certificate of Compliance for any product within the EC. The importer then becomes the responsible vendor. But if I'm importing it to use, not to sell, does this matter? The body responsible for CE marking here is Trading Standards. They are unlikely to even find out about it since I am not a trader. Toby makes a valid point as concerns resale, but being pragmatic, we don't live in a bureaucratic police state where officials go through the small ads checking on what people are selling, so whether it's legal or not, it's certainly going to be under the radar. I think the only issue that may concern Elecraft is if it is likely that imports are going to be stopped at customs and returned at their expense. If it's OK for goods to be certified at this end then it obviously isn't illegal to import uncertified goods therefore customs isn't going to be bothered. -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Mark
Toby Deinhardt wrote: No CE mark seen but I dont think it needs one in Kit form. For the kit version likely not, but, afaik, anyone who ordered an Although it might be technically legal (speculation), I very much doubt that the kit exemption envisaged a pre-aligned sub-assembly kit, like the K3. As far as I remember, the equivalent position for PCs is that board level components have to have individual EMC certification. In that case, they can be certified based on using extremely good cases, etc., but the K3 components are only intended to be used in a K3, so that loophole won't work. -- David Woolley Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam, that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Mark
Although it might be technically legal (speculation), I very much doubt that the kit exemption envisaged a pre-aligned sub-assembly kit, As much as I hate to bother Eric right now, maybe he could give us a short update on the CE Marking certification status of the K3. Eric was looking into the legal situation and preparing to have the K3 certified back in April/May (shortly after the announcement). It would be a real pity if this creates problems for anyone on our side of the the Atlantic. vy 73 de toby ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Mark
An interesting parallel with home-build PCs, but the difference is that PC boards are sold separately on the open market and in theory can be connected with many other manufacturers' boards to make up a system; as such I would interpret them as products within their own right. The K3 boards are not on the open market as products, they are only viable when coupled together, ie unique to the final unit which is the K3. This is a kit of unique parts for one use, not a collection of various manufacturers' products. IMHO. David G3UNA - Original Message - From: David Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Elecraft List elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:17 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Mark Toby Deinhardt wrote: No CE mark seen but I dont think it needs one in Kit form. For the kit version likely not, but, afaik, anyone who ordered an Although it might be technically legal (speculation), I very much doubt that the kit exemption envisaged a pre-aligned sub-assembly kit, like the K3. As far as I remember, the equivalent position for PCs is that board level components have to have individual EMC certification. In that case, they can be certified based on using extremely good cases, etc., but the K3 components are only intended to be used in a K3, so that loophole won't work. -- David Woolley Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam, that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Mark
Hi David, Since the K3 kit requires 7 to 8 hours of customer assembly of our components following the detailed steps in our 60 page assembly manual, and because it does involve customer alignment and set up of the PLL, filters etc (via the front panel interface) it clearly does fall under the amateur radio kit CE exemption. We do some of the alignment for you, but you certainly get to do some too. Any your quality of assembly/test/alignment directly impacts the final performance of the radio. This is not your father's four board plug together home built PC :-) Also, the regular CE statement of conformity for built products requires us to maintain manufacturing quality information and processes on the final built product. Something that is impossible for us to do on a customer built kit, since we have no control over the customer. While we certainly have designed the K3 to exceed any requirements in this area, it is clear that if the final assembly is done by the customer that we have no way of absolutely guaranteeing or controlling this. That's another reason for the creation of the exemption for amateur radio kits. The regulators obviously felt that since the builder's were licensed amateur radio operators in most cases, they were trained in the art and would maintain a reasonable level of quality on their own. Thus its impossible for a manufacturer= to issue a CE statement on any amateur radio kit. And as far as Toby's question on CE for the built K3 - Yes, we will not ship built K3s for sale to the EC until we have finished the test suite for CE on them. We had to wait until we were shipping to run the tests on actual production units. We're completing this testing now. Fortunately the CE statement of conformity is a self certification by the manufacturer (us) and does not require any regulatory filing or approval through bureaucratic channels etc. As a side note: Some of tests required for CE are pretty bizarre when applied to a ham radio transceiver - As an example the radio must be tested for spurious emissions from the radio in receive mode even though the acceptable levels for spurious and on channel signals in transmit far exceed these RX test values. It looks like most of the regulations were written for commercial radio equipment that was intended for use by non-technical users from the general public. Fortunately, we easily exceed these requirements. Just a lot of formal testing and paperwork to do! 73, Eric WA6HHQ - David Woolley wrote: Toby Deinhardt wrote: No CE mark seen but I dont think it needs one in Kit form. For the kit version likely not, but, afaik, anyone who ordered an Although it might be technically legal (speculation), I very much doubt that the kit exemption envisaged a pre-aligned sub-assembly kit, like the K3. As far as I remember, the equivalent position for PCs is that board level components have to have individual EMC certification. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Mark
Hi David, I agree with this point too. All of the components of the K3 are designed only for use inside that radio and not as general general options for other manufacturer's products. The boards are not stand alone products. 73, Eric WA6HHQ David Cutter wrote: An interesting parallel with home-build PCs, but the difference is that PC boards are sold separately on the open market and in theory can be connected with many other manufacturers' boards to make up a system; as such I would interpret them as products within their own right. The K3 boards are not on the open market as products, they are only viable when coupled together, ie unique to the final unit which is the K3. This is a kit of unique parts for one use, not a collection of various manufacturers' products. IMHO. David G3UNA ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Mark
In what way do you envision? Its reached at least one 'G' now - I don't care about CE at all - it isn't worth the paper its printed (or often not) on. I've come across quite a lot of imported gear with a CE - no way does it meet even the most basic standard. Sorry, this came out confrontational - its not meant to be. But frankly - I just want my K3 and I don't care about 'useless' certification. On 6/11/07 21:50, Toby Deinhardt [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: It would be a real pity if this creates problems for anyone on our side of the the Atlantic. -- A bit of fragrance always clings to the hand that gives the rose. -Chinese proverb ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Mark
Hallo David, AFAIK, you as the importer of electronic devices are responsible for conformity with EU regulations, whether they make sense or not. It is easy to imagine an official, with nothing better to do, causing serious problems for the importer of said equipment. A lot of what is in the CE marking requirements, imvho, make good sense, but there is no real mechanism to enforce them, especially because the CE Marking uses a self certification system. It is far too easy for producers and/or European importers/distributors to fudge on their certification and conformity. Which, as you correctly noted, often makes the CE Marking almost worthless. Sorry, this came out confrontational - its not meant to be. But frankly - I just want my K3 and I don't care about 'useless' certification. I also want my K3 (kit) but would hate to see Elecraft and/or Elecraft's customers run into any problems, just because a CE Marking was missing. vy 73 de toby PS: I am not a lawyer, so any and all of the above could be wildly false. PPS: I did not take your mail as confrontational. No worries here. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Marking, Update Software
Julian G4ILO wrote: bands permitted in the destination country. There is nothing to stop anyone constructing a transmitter that can transmit on any frequency, therefore it is illogical to restrict a kit simply because the design has the capability to do so. But, on my reading of admittedly confusing wording [A], that is what the UK amateur radio licence does do so for use by Foundation licensees. It doesn't, in itself, restrict possession [B], or construction. Whilst constructing a transceiver probably isn't illegal for an unlicensed user, there are many things that require relatively limited technology (firearms, drugs) that are illegal even to produce without a licence, that may have very limited issue. Such restrictions interfere with the ability of operators who wish to take their radios abroad to operate in countries where different Only full licence holders can do this without getting an independent licence from the foreign country. limits apply. They also restrict the ability to use radios to generate low levels of RF on other frequencies for test purposes, e.g. as a stable signal generator. Of course, where countries impose import restrictions on built equipment that require such restrictions there is nothing that can be done about it. But why enforce limitations where they are not Whilst one would need to consult a lawyer to be sure of the actual legal position, which may well have a loop hole, I don't think the amateur radio kit exemption to the CE marking rule was ever intended to cover the K3 case. It was intended to cover the case where actual compliance is, to a significant extent, dependent on the builder. One of the K3 kit's selling points is that this is not the case. I think it also exists because the self training element of amateur radio is considered desirable, and learning the ability to create something compliant from parts which are not intrinsically compliant is part of that self training. Being able to assemble an Ikea book case doesn't really make you a trainee cabinet maker. If there is a loop hole, it is better that Elecraft not exploit it because exploited loopholes generally get closed in the next round of legislation after the legislators become aware of them. required? Back when I was first licensed, analogue VFOs were not able to be strictly confined within the licensed band, and operators were expected to use a crystal calibrator to ensure that they stayed within Back when you were first licensed, there was no Foundation licence. [A] The current licence restricts kits constructed by Foundation users to those which satisfy the interface definition for amateur radio equipment for CE marking purposes. As that definition is just a schedule of frequencies, etc., like that in the back of the licence, not a statement of requirements, one has to try and work out what the, presumably junior, drafter actually intended. Especially if one considers earlier versions of the licence, which don't rely on references to external documents, I believe that the intent is that the only allowed kits for that class of licence are those which are designed to be incapable of operating outside the parameters in the interface definition. The 2003 version of the Foundation Licence http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/publication/ra_info/br68f/br68f.htmuses the following wording, which clearly indicates the kit must be designed for amateur bands only use: 4(1) The Licensee shall only use transmitting equipment conforming to EC standards *or commercially available kits transmitting inside amateur bands only*. (I believe there is a legal principle that every word counts, so the inside amateur bands only must refer to the kits, not the operation, as that restriction is imposed on operation elsewhere in the licence (2(1)a).) I believe the satisfy IR 2028 part of the current licence is an attempt by someone at a more formal definition of the amateur bands only requirement. [B] I think the Wireless Telegraphy Act may restrict possession with intent to use, but I doubt that many cases are brought - if they are it is probably more likely for radar detectors, or when some other equipment was proven to be used illegally. (See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/acts/en2003/03en21-h.htm for an indirect reference.) One presumes that the intent being to do so only after upgrading the licence would be a valid defence. I am not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice. -- David Woolley Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam, that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Marking, Update Software
Well, you may be strictly right David, but I'm a free marketeer, I believe in less state control and regulation. I believe that the EU is a bureaucratic nightmare that adds to business costs and benefits no-one except the fat cat bureaucrats on the EU payroll. If a loophole exists I say exploit it while it's there. I say exactly the same to my accountant. :) We in the UK would be better off out of the EU anyway. We are far closer, culturally and commercially, to the USA than to Europe. But let's not argue about that on this reflector. (The Lounge over at Zerobeat Forums would be an acceptable place, if you really want to.) -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf On 10/13/07, David Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If there is a loop hole, it is better that Elecraft not exploit it because exploited loopholes generally get closed in the next round of legislation after the legislators become aware of them. and a lot more. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Marking, Update Software
Supplementary question: If the answer to 1 is No, what will be the impact of this on those of us from EU who have ordered kits, for which I understand CE marking is not required (not that anyone in the UK seems to bother about CE marking even for built stuff - see earlier thread.) Will products be shipped to EU in the same order that orders were placed, or will there be an extra delay in shipping? -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com On 10/12/07, Toby Deinhardt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) Does the K3 have a CE marking (yet)? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Marking, Update Software
In a recent message, Julian G4ILO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote ... Will products be shipped to EU in the same order that orders were placed, or will there be an extra delay in shipping? One of my concerns, Julian, is the possible delays caused by Elecraft customising each K3 for its destination country. For example, in the UK our 40 metre band is 7000-7200kHz and NoV permit holders for 60 metres have seven minibands of which only three are common with the USA. We can also use narrow modes on 60 metres. I should like to know whether these differences will have any impact on the despatch of the K3s to countries outside the USA. 73 -- David G4DMP Leeds, England, UK -- ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Marking, Update Software
I agree. I made the point, several months ago, that kit versions at least should not have the transmit capabilities restricted to the bands permitted in the destination country. There is nothing to stop anyone constructing a transmitter that can transmit on any frequency, therefore it is illogical to restrict a kit simply because the design has the capability to do so. Such restrictions interfere with the ability of operators who wish to take their radios abroad to operate in countries where different limits apply. They also restrict the ability to use radios to generate low levels of RF on other frequencies for test purposes, e.g. as a stable signal generator. Of course, where countries impose import restrictions on built equipment that require such restrictions there is nothing that can be done about it. But why enforce limitations where they are not required? Back when I was first licensed, analogue VFOs were not able to be strictly confined within the licensed band, and operators were expected to use a crystal calibrator to ensure that they stayed within the band limits. It seems like another area where the nanny state has gone too far. -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com On 10/12/07, David Pratt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my concerns, Julian, is the possible delays caused by Elecraft customising each K3 for its destination country. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
