Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Bastien]

Hi Nicolas,

Nicolas Goaziou  writes:

> I just sent an email to Emacs devels for inclusion in GNU ELPA.

Great.  Let's advertize it in etc/ORG-NEWS when it's available.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Bastien  writes:

> orgalist.el works great for me, thanks for writing it.

You're welcome.

> Just out of curiosity, did you consider make this a minor more from
> within org-list.el (e.g. `org-list-mode')?

I did. But I think features messing with other modes should go outside
Org core.

> As for orgalist.el: does it live somewhere outside of this list?

No, it only leaves in the mailing list archives.

> If not, I suggest adding it on GNU ELPA or creating a repository
> on code.orgmode.org.

I prefer the former, since it is, AFAIU, easier to install from Emacs.
I just sent an email to Emacs devels for inclusion in GNU ELPA.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Bastien]

Hi Nicolas,

orgalist.el works great for me, thanks for writing it.

Just out of curiosity, did you consider make this a minor more from
within org-list.el (e.g. `org-list-mode')?

Nicolas Goaziou  writes:

> As stated before, IMO, the only viable use for contrib/ is to be
> used as an incubator for inclusion in Org.

For now this is what contrib/ is meant to be, but I would not even
use it like this today.

code.orgmode.org aims at beginning the place to share Org related
code, whether it is a contributed package or something to be later
included in Org's core.

> Packages in contrib/ should be stored somewhere else, it could even
> be in an Org ELPA.

For now we removed some files one by one, leaving to the authors
the choice of where the code should live -- Github or elsewhere.

As for orgalist.el: does it live somewhere outside of this list?

If not, I suggest adding it on GNU ELPA or creating a repository
on code.orgmode.org.

We need to do this before Org 9.2 to be able to show users an
alternative - we cannot just let them now it has been deleted.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[stardiviner]

Yes, seems no obviously advantage. (Why want to do the same thing like 
MELPA, right, maybe someday Org-mode ELPA has CI or etc, can be easily 
integrated???) But if want to outof contrib/, I thinkthis is a thinking too.



On 04/09/2018 10:47 AM, stardiviner wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256


Nicolas Goaziou  writes:


It cloud even be in an Org ELPA

Do You mean can publish package like MELPA separately?

- -- 
[ stardiviner ] don't need to convince with trends.

Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
IRC(freenode): stardiviner
GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3
   
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Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Tuesday, 10 Apr 2018 at 15:51, Tim Cross wrote:
> WRT Emacs 27 - I gave up bleeding edge Emacs a few years back. Prefer the
> stability and there wasn't much in new versions that justified the regular
> updates and rebuilds etc.

I track via emacs-snapshot (Debian package) which means I don't have to
build.  I particularly wanted display-line-number-mode in the latest
version as it works very well with evil, especially relative numbering
for quick movement!

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.6-347-gd73a5e


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Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Tim Cross]

for me, moving to use-package was fairly painless - my init file was only
20+ years worth of accumulated tweaks and configuration!  Was well worth
the effort though as it also fixed some annoying 'quirks' I had sort of got
use to.

WRT Emacs 27 - I gave up bleeding edge Emacs a few years back. Prefer the
stability and there wasn't much in new versions that justified the regular
updates and rebuilds etc.

On 10 April 2018 at 15:20, Eric S Fraga  wrote:

> On Tuesday, 10 Apr 2018 at 07:51, Tim Cross wrote:
> > I have also found the 'use-package' package to be extremely useful in
> > making my setup clearer, further controlling package setup/load and
> > deferring package loading to get faster startup times.
>
> Yes, I've heard good thing about use-package.  My problem is that my
> .emacs etc. is a 35 year old mess.  I need to start over but of course
> there is incredible inertia in doing so.
>
> > I wouldn't worry about emacs 27 too much. We are still waiting on emacs
> > 26, so emacs 27 is probably 5+ years away yet!
>
> Well, you'll see from my signature that I use v27.  I track emacs
> development for the excitement!  The problem is that I have one system
> where I am still using v25.
>
> Anyway, I think this has gone completely off-topic for the org list!
>
> thanks,
> eric
> --
> Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.6-347-gd73a5e
>



-- 
regards,

Tim

--
Tim Cross

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Tuesday, 10 Apr 2018 at 07:51, Tim Cross wrote:
> I have also found the 'use-package' package to be extremely useful in
> making my setup clearer, further controlling package setup/load and
> deferring package loading to get faster startup times.

Yes, I've heard good thing about use-package.  My problem is that my
.emacs etc. is a 35 year old mess.  I need to start over but of course
there is incredible inertia in doing so.

> I wouldn't worry about emacs 27 too much. We are still waiting on emacs
> 26, so emacs 27 is probably 5+ years away yet! 

Well, you'll see from my signature that I use v27.  I track emacs
development for the excitement!  The problem is that I have one system
where I am still using v25.

Anyway, I think this has gone completely off-topic for the org list!

thanks,
eric
-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.6-347-gd73a5e


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Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Tim Cross]

Eric S Fraga  writes:

>> Yes.. there was a tome of discussion on this on emacs-devel. I have saved
>> this link for my reference:
>> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=24acb31c04b4048b85311d794e600ecd7ce60d3b
>
> Ah, so in emacs 27, package initialisation happens whether you want it
> or not...  I guess I have to give in and move with the times!  Thanks
> for the link.  I do read emacs-devel but not all of it sticks.
>

I think there is some confusion regarding package initialisation as many
people have used same/similar terms to mean different things. As I
understand it, the packages are initialised to the 'autoload' point
i.e. all the actual code associated with the package is not 'loaded'
into the system, but various entry points are setup so that should you
call a core function, open up an associated file, run an associated
mode, then the package will be loaded. In many respects, not terribly
different from how most emacs 'built-in' packages used to work (many of
which have now been moved out into ELPA packages.

I have also found the 'use-package' package to be extremely useful in
making my setup clearer, further controlling package setup/load and
deferring package loading to get faster startup times.

I wouldn't worry about emacs 27 too much. We are still waiting on emacs
26, so emacs 27 is probably 5+ years away yet! 

-- 
Tim Cross

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Monday,  9 Apr 2018 at 14:19, Kaushal Modi wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 10:14 AM Eric S Fraga  wrote:
>
>>
>> Does emacs 27 initialise package before I do
>> explicitly?
>>
>
> Yes.. there was a tome of discussion on this on emacs-devel. I have saved
> this link for my reference:
> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=24acb31c04b4048b85311d794e600ecd7ce60d3b

Ah, so in emacs 27, package initialisation happens whether you want it
or not...  I guess I have to give in and move with the times!  Thanks
for the link.  I do read emacs-devel but not all of it sticks.

> PS: Why does your email not remain in to: or cc: when I do Reply All? Is it
> OK if it is left out in the future? I have been adding your email back in
> manually.

Probably because I have told gnus that I am subscribed to the list so it
probably adds a Followup-To header.  I will read your replies whether
you add me or not as I'm subscribed to the list.  So no need to add it
back!

Thanks again,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.6-347-gd73a5e


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Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Kaushal Modi]

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 10:14 AM Eric S Fraga  wrote:

>
> Does emacs 27 initialise package before I do
> explicitly?
>

Yes.. there was a tome of discussion on this on emacs-devel. I have saved
this link for my reference:
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=24acb31c04b4048b85311d794e600ecd7ce60d3b

See this new node in Emacs manual: (emacs) Early Init File

PS: Why does your email not remain in to: or cc: when I do Reply All? Is it
OK if it is left out in the future? I have been adding your email back in
manually.
-- 

Kaushal Modi

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Monday,  9 Apr 2018 at 12:45, Kaushal Modi wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 8:25 AM Eric S Fraga  wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, because of byte code incompatibilities.  Yes, I probably need to
>> set up major version specific directories.  Laziness on my part, I
>> guess.  Which is why I am happy for my comment to be ignored. ;-)
>>
>
> OK, but I'll still leave this here in case anyone wants to do that (major
> version specific elpa dir) :)

Thanks for this.  Helpful but I have one question: why the difference in
placement of the code?  I.e. why cannot I have the directory setting in
my .emacs in both cases?  Does emacs 27 initialise package before I do
explicitly?

Thanks again,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.6-347-gd73a5e


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Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Kaushal Modi]

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 8:25 AM Eric S Fraga  wrote:

>
> Yes, because of byte code incompatibilities.  Yes, I probably need to
> set up major version specific directories.  Laziness on my part, I
> guess.  Which is why I am happy for my comment to be ignored. ;-)
>

OK, but I'll still leave this here in case anyone wants to do that (major
version specific elpa dir) :)

For emacs 26.x and older:
- Put the below in your emacs config *before* (require 'package)

For emacs 27.x (and probably newer) i.e. current master:
- Put the below in your ~/.emacs.d/early-init.el

(setq package-user-dir (let ((elpa-dir-name (format "elpa_%s"
emacs-major-version))) ;default = "elpa"
   (file-name-as-directory (expand-file-name
elpa-dir-name user-emacs-directory
-- 

Kaushal Modi

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Monday,  9 Apr 2018 at 12:18, Kaushal Modi wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 8:11 AM Eric S Fraga  wrote:
>
>>
>> I would much prefer contrib.  ELPA does not work well, in my experience,
>> if you have different systems running different versions of Emacs.
>>
>
> Out of curiosity, why is that? Because of few backward-incompatibilities in
> byte compiled files in newer Emacs versions? If so, it's useful to have
> major-version specific package-user-dir 's.

Yes, because of byte code incompatibilities.  Yes, I probably need to
set up major version specific directories.  Laziness on my part, I
guess.  Which is why I am happy for my comment to be ignored. ;-)

thanks,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.6-347-gd73a5e


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Description: PGP signature

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Kaushal Modi]

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 8:11 AM Eric S Fraga  wrote:

>
> I would much prefer contrib.  ELPA does not work well, in my experience,
> if you have different systems running different versions of Emacs.
>

Out of curiosity, why is that? Because of few backward-incompatibilities in
byte compiled files in newer Emacs versions? If so, it's useful to have
major-version specific package-user-dir 's.
-- 

Kaushal Modi

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Sunday,  8 Apr 2018 at 22:18, Nicolas Goaziou wrote:

[...]

> As stated before, IMO, the only viable use for contrib/ is to be used as
> an incubator for inclusion in Org.
>
> Packages in contrib/ should be stored somewhere else, it could even be
> in an Org ELPA.

I would much prefer contrib.  ELPA does not work well, in my experience,
if you have different systems running different versions of Emacs.

Just my 2¢ worth.  Feel free to ignore ;-)

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.6-347-gd73a5e


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Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[stardiviner]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256


Nicolas Goaziou  writes:

> It cloud even be in an Org ELPA

Do You mean can publish package like MELPA separately?

- -- 
[ stardiviner ] don't need to convince with trends.
   Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
   IRC(freenode): stardiviner
   GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3
  
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Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Samuel Wales  writes:

> ooc, why is org contrib deprecated?  i find it useful to just get git
> and i do not use emacs packages.

contrib/ is an all-or-nothing thing. You cannot properly package
individually libraries, either in an ELPA or in a distribution.

As stated before, IMO, the only viable use for contrib/ is to be used as
an incubator for inclusion in Org.

Packages in contrib/ should be stored somewhere else, it could even be
in an Org ELPA.

Regards,

--
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Samuel Wales]

ooc, why is org contrib deprecated?  i find it useful to just get git
and i do not use emacs packages.

On 4/8/18, Nicolas Goaziou  wrote:
> Rasmus  writes:
>
>> Are there any plans to add this to either Org, Org contrib or ELPA?
>
> No there are no plan for it. I don't think it belongs to Org proper, and
> Org contrib is somewhat a dead-end nowadays. It could go to GNU ELPA,
> I guess.
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: 

The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. And ANYBODY
can get it at any time.

"You’ve really gotta quit this and get moving, because this is murder
by neglect." ---
.

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Rasmus  writes:

> Are there any plans to add this to either Org, Org contrib or ELPA?

No there are no plan for it. I don't think it belongs to Org proper, and
Org contrib is somewhat a dead-end nowadays. It could go to GNU ELPA,
I guess.

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Rasmus]

Nicolas Goaziou  writes:

> Hello,
>
> Eric S Fraga  writes:
>
>> Not sure what kind of ECM you would like?  I simply type in a line like
>> this:
>>
>> 2.  this is an item that has a lot of text, text that will eventually
>> auto fill onto next line.
>
> I see. Here comes the 2018 release.

Are there any plans to add this to either Org, Org contrib or ELPA?

Thanks,
Rasmus

-- 
One thing that is clear: it's all down hill from here 

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Nicolas Goaziou  writes:

> Hello,
>
> Eric S Fraga  writes:
>
>> Not sure what kind of ECM you would like?  I simply type in a line like
>> this:
>>
>> 2.  this is an item that has a lot of text, text that will eventually
>> auto fill onto next line.
>
> I see. Here comes the 2018 release.

Works great for me -- glad to have this back!

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Monday,  1 Jan 2018 at 11:15, Nicolas Goaziou wrote:
> I see. Here comes the 2018 release.

Happy new year!

2018 is obviously going to be a good year: this version of orgalist
works very well now.

Thanks,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.5-269-g144451


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eric S Fraga  writes:

> Not sure what kind of ECM you would like?  I simply type in a line like
> this:
>
> 2.  this is an item that has a lot of text, text that will eventually
> auto fill onto next line.

I see. Here comes the 2018 release.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou


orgalist.el
Description: Orgalist minor mode v2

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Sunday, 31 Dec 2017 at 17:57, Nicolas Goaziou wrote:
> Possibly. Could you replace each occurrence of normal-auto-fill-function
> with (local 'normal-auto-fill-function) in minor mode definition and try
> again?


Did this but no change in behaviour.  Auto-fill goes to beginning of
line;  fill paragraph works fine still.

> If it still fails, could you provide an ECM?


Not sure what kind of ECM you would like?  I simply type in a line like
this:

2.  this is an item that has a lot of text, text that will eventually
auto fill onto next line.

(join the lines obviously...)

thanks,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.5-269-g144451


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Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Eric S Fraga  writes:

> auto-fill-function is a variable defined in ‘C source code’.
> Its value is ‘message-do-auto-fill’
>
> normal-auto-fill-function is a variable defined in ‘simple.el’.
> Its value is ‘message-do-auto-fill’

[...]

> So the problem is due to auto-fill not working properly.

Possibly. Could you replace each occurrence of normal-auto-fill-function
with (local 'normal-auto-fill-function) in minor mode definition and try
again?

If it still fails, could you provide an ECM?

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Sunday, 31 Dec 2017 at 16:40, Nicolas Goaziou wrote:
> What's the value for `auto-fill-function' and
> `normal-auto-fill-function'?

auto-fill-function is a variable defined in ‘C source code’.
Its value is ‘message-do-auto-fill’

normal-auto-fill-function is a variable defined in ‘simple.el’.
Its value is ‘message-do-auto-fill’

> M-q should be bound to `orgalist-fill-item' when point is within a list.
> Outside, it should be bound to `fill-paragraph'. Be sure to check you
> don't do anything suspicious with M-q in your configuration.

Well, I've tried to make sure I don't do anything suspicious with
respect to M-q.  In normal text (within message mode), M-q is bound to
fill-paragraph.  In a list, M-q is now bound to orgalist-fill-item but
obviously if the item has been auto-filled badly, some of the lines in
the list are no longer recognised as a list.

So the problem is due to auto-fill not working properly.

There does seem to be another problem due to some interaction with evil
(which I use for all of my writing) but I haven't figured out exactly
what is going wrong yet (repeating a 'dw' invocation using '.'  deletes
to end of buffer).  I'll get back to you on this after more
experimenting.

thanks,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.5-269-g144451


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Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eric S Fraga  writes:

> The mostly is because filling does not work for me, neither auto fill
> (subsequent lines start at column 1, i.e. not indented)

Auto fill can be tricky to handle because some other minor modes do
fancy stuff with `auto-fill-function' (e.g., Yasnippet).

In particular, you should make sure that `normal-auto-fill-function'
doesn't change once Orgalist is active.

What's the value for `auto-fill-function' and
`normal-auto-fill-function'?

> nor M-q being bound to anything orgalist related... The latter may be
> due to my configuration (*), mind you, but I haven't tracked it down
> yet: M-q is bound to fill-paragraph when in message mode. I have
> removed all of my own M-q bindings I have, as far as I can tell.

M-q should be bound to `orgalist-fill-item' when point is within a list.
Outside, it should be bound to `fill-paragraph'. Be sure to check you
don't do anything suspicious with M-q in your configuration.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou0x80A93738

Re: [O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Eric S Fraga]

Hi Nicolas,

this looks very nice.  And it seems to work mostly.  I've only tested it
in message mode.

The mostly is because filling does not work for me, neither auto fill
(subsequent lines start at column 1, i.e. not indented) nor M-q being
bound to anything orgalist related...  The latter may be due to my
configuration (*), mind you, but I haven't tracked it down yet: M-q is
bound to fill-paragraph when in message mode.  I have removed all of my
own M-q bindings I have, as far as I can tell.

(*) the problem with configuration files that can trace their history
back more than 30 years... sigh.

Thanks,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.1.5-269-g144451


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[O] [ANN] OrgStruct is dead. Long live Orgalist.

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

As discussed on this ML a few months ago, I eventually removed OrgStruct
minor mode from Org code base. 

I also removed Radio lists, i.e., sending and receiving Org lists in
non-Org buffers, since the two features were pretty much tied. I _did
not_ remove `org-list-to-html', `org-list-to-latex' functions, just the
sending and receiving mechanism.

OrgStruct minor mode has a few replacements already, the most basic one
being Outline minor mode. See the ML archives about OrgStruct removal
for more information. However, there is, AFAIK, no satisfactory solution
for plain lists management in non-Org buffers. Therefore, I implemented
Orgalist mode, which really is a mini Org list library for non-Org
buffers.

Here is an excerpt for the commentary section:


This library provides Org mode's plain lists in non-Org buffers.

More specifically, it supports syntax for numbered, unnumbered,
description items, checkboxes, and counter cookies.

Besides, the following features are supported:

- Navigation (M-, M-)
- Indentation (M-, M-, M-S-, M-S-, TAB)
- Re-ordering (M-S-, M-S-)
- Item insertion (M-RET)
- Toggling checkboxes (C-c C-c)
- Cycling bullets (C-c -)
- Sorting items (C-c ^)
- Filling items (M-q)
- Auto filling (when Auto Fill mode is enabled)


It also re-introduces radio lists.

I didn't test it thoroughly, it doesn't even ship with tests, but
I could use it in a Message mode buffer satisfactorily. This was my main
use case.

Even if considered useful, I don't think it should go into Org core. It
could be, however, added to GNU ELPA, or to some repository Bastien just
set up. Until we find a proper place for it, I attach the full library
to this message.

Feedback welcome.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou0x80A93738


orgalist.el
Description: Orgalist minor mode