Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Thu, 5 Mar 2020, Gene Heskett wrote:


Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 10:42:19 -0500
From: Gene Heskett 
Reply-To: EMC developers 
To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

On Thursday 05 March 2020 09:25:01 Peter C. Wallace wrote:


On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, Gene Heskett wrote:

Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 22:12:47 -0500
From: Gene Heskett 
Reply-To: EMC developers 
To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

On Wednesday 04 March 2020 12:52:09 andy pugh wrote:

On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 at 17:26, Peter C. Wallace 

wrote:

It was first added to 2.8 and them merged into 2.7 before the
2.7.15 release AFAIK


I think that they were added in 2010:
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/commit/44586b831e1ef5e82600319
0ab 317cda76b6e8e3#diff-912d11dfa52738be509f63e4ff1922a4 (And that
commit also includes documentation of the pins)


Sort of. But it does provide some hints as to how to utilize it to
improve control, If you have encoder feedback on axis axis then you
could feed the feedback.deriv pin with the velocity of that axis's
encoder. But from reading that, I fail to deduct a source for
cmd.deriv. I am envisioning a differential, for instance between
current command and previous command or maybe a sum2 with one input
set for a gain of -1 and an rc lag from the command input to the
other input giving a differential output according to the charge
across the cap. Since we don't have a cap in hal components, we'ed
have to use a low pass.  But I quickly run out of imagination as to
the rc time constant to synthesize.

just discussing the howto's would I think be educational for those
of us who never got the transcendental stuff in school 70+ years
ago.

Help?

Thanks


Normally you would just connect the joint velocity pin to the PID
command derivative


Ok, but thats the signal I disconnected around 2 years back to get rid of
an instant following error for a movement of 1/10 the MIN_ERROR. So
hooking it back back up now does what to my FF# settings?



It requres somewhat different tuning because of differening delays
in the TPs idea of velocity and velocity calculated in PID via DP/DT
Changing anything now is likely a waste of time





Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers



Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 05 March 2020 09:25:01 Peter C. Wallace wrote:

> On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 22:12:47 -0500
> > From: Gene Heskett 
> > Reply-To: EMC developers 
> > To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix
> >
> > On Wednesday 04 March 2020 12:52:09 andy pugh wrote:
> >> On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 at 17:26, Peter C. Wallace  
wrote:
> >>> It was first added to 2.8 and them merged into 2.7 before the
> >>> 2.7.15 release AFAIK
> >>
> >> I think that they were added in 2010:
> >> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/commit/44586b831e1ef5e82600319
> >>0ab 317cda76b6e8e3#diff-912d11dfa52738be509f63e4ff1922a4 (And that
> >> commit also includes documentation of the pins)
> >
> > Sort of. But it does provide some hints as to how to utilize it to
> > improve control, If you have encoder feedback on axis axis then you
> > could feed the feedback.deriv pin with the velocity of that axis's
> > encoder. But from reading that, I fail to deduct a source for
> > cmd.deriv. I am envisioning a differential, for instance between
> > current command and previous command or maybe a sum2 with one input
> > set for a gain of -1 and an rc lag from the command input to the
> > other input giving a differential output according to the charge
> > across the cap. Since we don't have a cap in hal components, we'ed
> > have to use a low pass.  But I quickly run out of imagination as to
> > the rc time constant to synthesize.
> >
> > just discussing the howto's would I think be educational for those
> > of us who never got the transcendental stuff in school 70+ years
> > ago.
> >
> > Help?
> >
> > Thanks
>
> Normally you would just connect the joint velocity pin to the PID
> command derivative
>
Ok, but thats the signal I disconnected around 2 years back to get rid of 
an instant following error for a movement of 1/10 the MIN_ERROR. So  
hooking it back back up now does what to my FF# settings?

> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-developers mailing list
> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 05 March 2020 07:16:20 andy pugh wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Mar 2020 at 03:14, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > encoder. But from reading that, I fail to deduct a source for
> > cmd.deriv.
>
> It's a feed-forward input, and the source would be the velocity output
> from the motion controller for that joint.
> (ie, the motion system outputs both a current position _and_ current
> velocity for each joint actuator)

Thanks Andy. Since I might have to dig into that, I may as well "do it 
right".  But this is the signal I was instructed to disconnect a couple 
years ago to get rid of my instant following errors, so it sounds as if 
my default setting for FF1=1 is wrong. Whats the proper starter value 
for all the FF#'s then?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Wed, 4 Mar 2020, Gene Heskett wrote:


Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 22:12:47 -0500
From: Gene Heskett 
Reply-To: EMC developers 
To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

On Wednesday 04 March 2020 12:52:09 andy pugh wrote:


On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 at 17:26, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

It was first added to 2.8 and them merged into 2.7 before the
2.7.15 release AFAIK


I think that they were added in 2010:
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/commit/44586b831e1ef5e826003190ab
317cda76b6e8e3#diff-912d11dfa52738be509f63e4ff1922a4 (And that commit
also includes documentation of the pins)


Sort of. But it does provide some hints as to how to utilize it to
improve control, If you have encoder feedback on axis axis then you
could feed the feedback.deriv pin with the velocity of that axis's
encoder. But from reading that, I fail to deduct a source for cmd.deriv.
I am envisioning a differential, for instance between current command
and previous command or maybe a sum2 with one input set for a gain of -1
and an rc lag from the command input to the other input giving a
differential output according to the charge across the cap. Since we
don't have a cap in hal components, we'ed have to use a low pass.  But I
quickly run out of imagination as to the rc time constant to synthesize.

just discussing the howto's would I think be educational for those of us
who never got the transcendental stuff in school 70+ years ago.

Help?

Thanks



Normally you would just connect the joint velocity pin to the PID command 
derivative





Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

Re: [Emc-developers] 2.7.15 PID Fix

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 5 Mar 2020 at 03:14, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> encoder. But from reading that, I fail to deduct a source for cmd.deriv.

It's a feed-forward input, and the source would be the velocity output
from the motion controller for that joint.
(ie, the motion system outputs both a current position _and_ current
velocity for each joint actuator)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

Re: [Emc-developers] A halmeter enhancement

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 05 March 2020 05:57:33 Phill Carter wrote:

>  Original message From: Gene Heskett
>  Date: 5/3/20  9:43 pm  (GMT+10:00) To:
> emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] A
> halmeter enhancement On Thursday 05 March 2020 04:30:18 Phill Carter
> wrote:Phill, I appreciate the help when I did find it, and I'll try it
> later today, but your email agent needs help. Its violating at least
> half the rfc's governing formatting, and losing much readability.Sorry
> Gene, I did that on my phone. I should know better...

I figured it was something like that, and just one of the reasons I've 
not joined the race to have a phone with the complete list of cracked 
bells and broken whistles. When I go out and need a phone I borrow the 
wifes tracfone. It makes phone calls. And thinks it has a camera.

Sorry I barked so loud. I haven't had my morning coffee and St. Johns 
Wort yet.  The first opens the 2nd eye, the latter keeps me from 
shooting the neighbors cat.  Or being the chrochety old fart I really am 
at 85 yo with the usual list of aches & pains and a parts list thats 
getting too long for my card case. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

Re: [Emc-developers] A halmeter enhancement

[Phill Carter]

 Original message From: Gene Heskett  
Date: 5/3/20  9:43 pm  (GMT+10:00) To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] A halmeter enhancement On Thursday 05 March 2020 
04:30:18 Phill Carter wrote:Phill, I appreciate the help when I did find it, 
and I'll try it later today, but your email agent needs help. Its violating at 
least half the rfc's governing formatting, and losing much readability.Sorry 
Gene, I did that on my phone. I should know better...
___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

Re: [Emc-developers] A halmeter enhancement

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 05 March 2020 04:30:18 Phill Carter wrote:

Phill, I appreciate the help when I did find it, and I'll try it later 
today, but your email agent needs help. Its violating at least half the 
rfc's governing formatting, and losing much readability.

>  Original message From: Gene Heskett
>  Date: 5/3/20  8:19 pm  (GMT+10:00) To:
> emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Emc-developers] A
> halmeter enhancement Greetings all;I never made it to the garage today
> as I had a bad time with leg cramps in the night so didn't get a lot
> of good sleep last night. They ached all day.How hard would it be to
> cause the text background of the halmeter to switch colors when its in
> the true/false mode for a logic signal?You could use halshow which has
> LEDs for booleans. Although apparently it is not as fast as halmeter
> org/docs/html/hal/tools.html=2ahUKEwiAzbfwgYPoAhWnwTgGHQ5HDwAQFjAAe
>gQIBRAC=AOvVaw2xX6Z6u39uLobHIpmsIQjL=1583400454676> When
> piddling with this G-704's spindle encoder, changing its index  from
> an opto-interrupter to an ATS-667, the halmeter on the monitor screen
> is too far away to read the true/false text. But I could see a color
> change from several feet farther away. I know which of the wires is
> ground and which is the 5 volt supply, but there was originally the
> A/B/Z wires and I need to find the Z wire.I threw that opto stuff
> together on two pieces of perfboard, one holding the slot gizmo's and
> one holding a quad cmos buffer to give me rail to rail outputs quite a
> few years ago without documenting it, a bad habit of mine.?? a
> possible halmeter enhancement patch ??Thanks all.Cheers, Gene
> Heskett-- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."-Ed
> Howdershelt (Author)If we desire respect for the law, we must first
> make the law respectable. - Louis D. BrandeisGenes Web page
> __
>_Emc-developers mailing
> listEmc-developers@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/
>lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> ___
> Emc-developers mailing list
> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

Re: [Emc-developers] A halmeter enhancement

[Phill Carter]

 Original message From: Gene Heskett  
Date: 5/3/20  8:19 pm  (GMT+10:00) To: emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net 
Subject: [Emc-developers] A halmeter enhancement Greetings all;I never made it 
to the garage today as I had a bad time with leg cramps in the night so didn't 
get a lot of good sleep last night. They ached all day.How hard would it be to 
cause the text background of the halmeter to switch colors when its in the 
true/false mode for a logic signal?You could use halshow which has LEDs for 
booleans. Although apparently it is not as fast as halmeter 

 When piddling with this G-704's spindle encoder, changing its index  from an 
opto-interrupter to an ATS-667, the halmeter on the monitor screen is too far 
away to read the true/false text. But I could see a color change from several 
feet farther away. I know which of the wires is ground and which is the 5 volt 
supply, but there was originally the A/B/Z wires and I need to find the Z 
wire.I threw that opto stuff together on two pieces of perfboard, one holding 
the slot gizmo's and one holding a quad cmos buffer to give me rail to rail 
outputs quite a few years ago without documenting it, a bad habit of mine.?? a 
possible halmeter enhancement patch ??Thanks all.Cheers, Gene Heskett-- "There 
are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. 
Please use in that order."-Ed Howdershelt (Author)If we desire respect for the 
law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. BrandeisGenes Web page 
___Emc-developers
 mailing 
listEmc-developers@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

[Emc-developers] A halmeter enhancement

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

I never made it to the garage today as I had a bad time with leg cramps 
in the night so didn't get a lot of good sleep last night. They ached 
all day.

How hard would it be to cause the text background of the halmeter to 
switch colors when its in the true/false mode for a logic signal? When 
piddling with this G-704's spindle encoder, changing its index  from an 
opto-interrupter to an ATS-667, the halmeter on the monitor screen is 
too far away to read the true/false text. But I could see a color change 
from several feet farther away. I know which of the wires is ground and 
which is the 5 volt supply, but there was originally the A/B/Z wires and 
I need to find the Z wire.

I threw that opto stuff together on two pieces of perfboard, one holding 
the slot gizmo's and one holding a quad cmos buffer to give me rail to 
rail outputs quite a few years ago without documenting it, a bad habit 
of mine.

?? a possible halmeter enhancement patch ??

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-developers mailing list
Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers