RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz
So what is the bottom line? Are there or are there not limits for Europe (EN 55022) above a gig? I have copies of both BS EN 55022:2006 and BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007 Incorporating corrigendum no. 1. Both standards have a section 6.2 and both standards have limits from 1 to 6 GHz. BS EN 55022:2006 is listed in the OJ so I assume that it is valid. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 Pettit, Ghery ghery.pettit@int el.comTo Sent by: Jim Hulbert jim.hulb...@pb.com emc-p...@ieee.org Flavin, John john.fla...@teradata.com emc-p...@ieee.org 10/29/2008 08:45 emc-p...@ieee.org PM cc Subject RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz You must have an early copy put out by BSI. They made a mistake and included Amendment 1 to CISPR 22, Edition 5.0 and withdrew it promptly when I pointed out their error. Limits above 1 GHz should not be included in EN 55022:2006. Ghery S. Pettit, NCE Convener, CISPR SC I WG3 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:09 AM To: Flavin, John; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz EN 55022:2006 does indeed include the limits for radiated emissions in the range 1 GHz to 6 GHz. Look at section 6.2. This standard is published in the OJ and becomes compulsory under the EMC Directive as of 1 Oct 2009. Jim Hulbert, Group Leader TSO Competitive Compliance Engineering Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT 06484 Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621) Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Flavin, John Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:20 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz We have copies of AS/NZS CISPR 22:2006 and CNS 13438:2006, both of which show radiated emission limits in the range 1-6GHz. Both reference CISPR 16-1-4 for the description of the test site. (Our copy of EN55022:2006 does not show any such limits.) A few questions: Has the CISPR test site for 1GHz been decided? Has the validation method for the site been decided? If the test site or site validation method is still not settled, how does one test to the limits shown in these two standards? John D. Flavin Teradata TCP Engineering 17095 Via del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 john.fla...@teradata.com V: (858) 485-3874 F: (213) 337-5432 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are
RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz
Ghery, are you saying that the BS version has the error and was withdrawn? If so we were not notified of this action by British Standards. We get their standards through their subscription service. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 === Robert E. Heller/US-Corpora te/3M/US To Pettit, Ghery 10/30/2008 03:45 ghery.pet...@intel.com AM cc emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org Subject RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz(Document link: Robert E. Heller) So what is the bottom line? Are there or are there not limits for Europe (EN 55022) above a gig? I have copies of both BS EN 55022:2006 and BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007 Incorporating corrigendum no. 1. Both standards have a section 6.2 and both standards have limits from 1 to 6 GHz. BS EN 55022:2006 is listed in the OJ so I assume that it is valid. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 Pettit, Ghery ghery.pettit@int el.comTo Sent by: Jim Hulbert jim.hulb...@pb.com emc-p...@ieee.org Flavin, John john.fla...@teradata.com emc-p...@ieee.org 10/29/2008 08:45 emc-p...@ieee.org PM cc Subject RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz You must have an early copy put out by BSI. They made a mistake and included Amendment 1 to CISPR 22, Edition 5.0 and withdrew it promptly when I pointed out their error. Limits above 1 GHz should not be included in EN 55022:2006. Ghery S. Pettit, NCE Convener, CISPR SC I WG3 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:09 AM To: Flavin, John; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz EN 55022:2006 does indeed include the limits for radiated emissions in the range 1 GHz to 6 GHz. Look at section 6.2. This standard is published in the OJ and becomes compulsory under the EMC Directive as of 1 Oct 2009. Jim Hulbert, Group Leader TSO Competitive Compliance Engineering Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT 06484 Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621) Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Flavin, John Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:20 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz We have copies of AS/NZS CISPR 22:2006 and CNS 13438:2006,
Re: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz
BSMI (Taiwan), the publisher for the CNS 13438, is more likely to follow the VCCI's time frame for the site requirement above 1 GHz. Grace On 10/29/08, Larry Stillings la...@complianceworldwide.com wrote: Currently Australia / New Zealand and VCCI have put a tempory stay on measuring above 1 GHz until at least the 1 Oct 2009 date. See http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_100964 http://www.vcci.or.jp/vcci_e/topics/new0910.html however, we are setup to perform these measurements Larry Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:09 PM To: Flavin, John; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz EN 55022:2006 does indeed include the limits for radiated emissions in the range 1 GHz to 6 GHz. Look at section 6.2. This standard is published in the OJ and becomes compulsory under the EMC Directive as of 1 Oct 2009. Jim Hulbert, Group Leader TSO Competitive Compliance Engineering Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT 06484 Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621) Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Flavin, John Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:20 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz We have copies of AS/NZS CISPR 22:2006 and CNS 13438:2006, both of which show radiated emission limits in the range 1-6GHz. Both reference CISPR 16-1-4 for the description of the test site. (Our copy of EN55022:2006 does not show any such limits.) A few questions: Has the CISPR test site for 1GHz been decided? Has the validation method for the site been decided? If the test site or site validation method is still not settled, how does one test to the limits shown in these two standards? John D. Flavin Teradata TCP Engineering 17095 Via del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 john.fla...@teradata.com V: (858) 485-3874 F: (213) 337-5432 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product
RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz
We likewise were never notified that the BS version was withdrawn, if that is the case. It's rather disturbing to think that we may be paying money for and following standards that are wrong. Jim Hulbert, Group Leader TSO Competitive Compliance Engineering Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT 06484 Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621) Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of rehel...@mmm.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:54 AM To: Pettit, Ghery Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz Ghery, are you saying that the BS version has the error and was withdrawn? If so we were not notified of this action by British Standards. We get their standards through their subscription service. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 === Robert E. Heller/US-Corpora te/3M/US To Pettit, Ghery 10/30/2008 03:45 ghery.pet...@intel.com AM cc emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org Subject RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz(Document link: Robert E. Heller) So what is the bottom line? Are there or are there not limits for Europe (EN 55022) above a gig? I have copies of both BS EN 55022:2006 and BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007 Incorporating corrigendum no. 1. Both standards have a section 6.2 and both standards have limits from 1 to 6 GHz. BS EN 55022:2006 is listed in the OJ so I assume that it is valid. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 Pettit, Ghery ghery.pettit@int el.comTo Sent by: Jim Hulbert jim.hulb...@pb.com emc-p...@ieee.org Flavin, John john.fla...@teradata.com emc-p...@ieee.org 10/29/2008 08:45 emc-p...@ieee.org PM cc Subject RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz You must have an early copy put out by BSI. They made a mistake and included Amendment 1 to CISPR 22, Edition 5.0 and withdrew it promptly when I pointed out their error. Limits above 1 GHz should not be included in EN 55022:2006. Ghery S. Pettit, NCE Convener, CISPR SC I WG3 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:09 AM To: Flavin, John; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz EN 55022:2006 does indeed include the limits for radiated emissions in the range 1 GHz to 6 GHz. Look at section 6.2. This standard is published in the OJ and becomes compulsory under the EMC Directive as of 1 Oct 2009. Jim Hulbert, Group Leader TSO Competitive Compliance Engineering Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT 06484 Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621) Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Flavin, John Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:20 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz We have copies of AS/NZS CISPR 22:2006 and CNS 13438:2006, both of which show radiated emission limits in the range 1-6GHz. Both reference CISPR 16-1-4 for the description of the test site. (Our copy of EN55022:2006 does not show any such limits.) A few questions: Has the CISPR test site for 1GHz been decided? Has the validation method for the site been decided? If the test site or site validation method is still not settled, how does one test to the limits shown in these two standards? John D. Flavin Teradata TCP Engineering 17095 Via del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 john.fla...@teradata.com V: (858) 485-3874 F: (213) 337-5432 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For
Re: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz
In message 72b8947772cf0948adaa9853631663fb20c833e...@pbi-namsg-02.mgdpbi.global.pv t, dated Thu, 30 Oct 2008, Jim Hulbert jim.hulb...@pb.com writes: We likewise were never notified that the BS version was withdrawn, if that is the case. It's rather disturbing to think that we may be paying money for and following standards that are wrong. Normally, you would have automatically received the new version, even if you did not receive any notification about the error. The error would normally also, if your company is a BSI Subscribing Member, have been notified in the BSI on-line publication 'Update Standards'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it, or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose! John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz
just one more comment. The AS/NZS CISPR 22:2006 edition does have the limits published in their version, as I have a copy Larry Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. From: Flavin, John [mailto:john.fla...@teradata.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:20 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz We have copies of AS/NZS CISPR 22:2006 and CNS 13438:2006, both of which show radiated emission limits in the range 1-6GHz. Both reference CISPR 16-1-4 for the description of the test site. (Our copy of EN55022:2006 does not show any such limits.) A few questions: Has the CISPR test site for 1GHz been decided? Has the validation method for the site been decided? If the test site or site validation method is still not settled, how does one test to the limits shown in these two standards? John D. Flavin Teradata TCP Engineering 17095 Via del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 john.fla...@teradata.com V: (858) 485-3874 F: (213) 337-5432 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: NFPA 79 Section 9.1.4.1
Thanks Lauren. Our product is a laboratory equipment product so it is evaluated to UL/IEC/EN 61010-1 for safety. Turned out our customer is using our product to do some process on their factory floor (not what it was intended to be used for). The customer hired a third party inspector who evaluated our product to the NFPA 79 because of how the customer was using our product. The inspector didn’t like the SSR on the neutral side of a heating element and quoted 9.1.4.1. I totally agree with you that the point maybe moot. I am so glad I don’t normally deal with industrial machines because the NFPA standard is such a hard read compared to the IEC/EN standards if you are not used to it. Thanks to all, The Other Brian From: lauren_cr...@amat.com [mailto:lauren_cr...@amat.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:32 PM To: Kunde, Brian Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: NFPA 79 Section 9.1.4.1 Brian, Well, I agree with you in that I don't see 9.1.4.1 prohibiting what the inspector claims it prohibits, but this may be a moot point. If we are speaking of a true jurisdiction electrical inspector and not a third party hired to assess the conformance of your design to NFPA 79, then it could be you just gotta do what he says. Depending on the wording of the jurisdiction's electrical legislation, the inspector may have full discretionary authority for what designs are acceptable or not. It could be, that if you had your design evaluated by a third party field evaluator to NFPA 79 and they put their sticker on your device, then the reluctant inspector might yield (it's no longer his *** on the line, its that of the field evaluator). If this inspector doesn't get that 9.1.4.1 is not intended for application to power circuits, other arguments are likely to be non-value added. Regards, Lauren The content of this message is Applied Materials Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. Save paper and trees! Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org 10/28/2008 08:45 AM To Lauren Crane/APPLIED MATERIALS@AMAT cc emc-p...@ieee.org Subject RE: NFPA 79 Section 9.1.4.1 Lauren, When I read 9.1.4.1, I also think it is referring to the circuit driving the coil of the relay and not the heater circuit. However, the inspector is telling me this code is mandating that I cannot have a solid state relay in the Neutral side of the heater element and I don’t see his interpretation. So I was hoping that someone more familiar then I with NFPA 79 could help me out. BTW, the two thermal switches are the same kind used in cloth dryers to control temperature. They are not intended to be redundant but have different values and are located in different locations for better temp control. I’m not good at drawing schematics from ascii characters so I’ll try to better describe it. It is fairly simple. 115VAC Plug, power cord enters unit, then a double pole circuit breaker/switch. On the Line side, there is one side of an indicator light and two thermal switched in series, then the heating element. The Neutral side of the heating element connects to the other side of the indicator light, then through the contact side of a solid state relay, then back to the Mains circuit breaker/switch. The coil side of the solid state relay is controlled by a small circuit board running at 24 volts dc. The low side of the coil goes directly to logic ground. Seems simple enough. But the inspector is saying I cannot have components on both the line side and the neutral side of the heating element. When I ask why not, he says because 9.1.4.1 says so. I’m just trying to understand the code and reason for it for the future. Thanks for your time and help. The Other Brian From: lauren_cr...@amat.com [mailto:lauren_cr...@amat.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 6:12 PM To: Kunde, Brian Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: NFPA 79 Section 9.1.4.1 It's a little hard to comment w/o a schematic. But note that under NFPA 79 there are two classes of circuits. It seems like your heater circuit may be considered a power circuit. Therefore, the inspector could be commenting on the circuit which controls the coil of the 24V solid state relay. Note also that even though you have two thermal switches on the line side of the heater coil it's not clear whether they are fail-safe. Redundancy doesn't add much value if the failure of the switch is not revealed somehow. Regards, Lauren Crane Product Regulatory Analyst Corporate Product EHS Lead Applied Materials Inc. - External Use -
Re: Reliability: MTBFs and Probability of Failure
Colleagues - I have been encouraged to record in a final email what I have discovered with your help in my search for reliability data, so that future searches of the EMC-PSTC archive will turn up the references. The reliability/probability-of-failure figures are needed to allow calculations to confirm the SIL level of a safety critical system comprising both mechanical and electrical parts. Here are the Standards, with a couple of website links too: Mechanical Reliability NSWC 98 Handbook of Reliability Prediction Procedures for Mechanical Equipment, latest issue and supporting MechRel software package are both available at no charge from the following web site: http://www.dt.navy.mil/tot-shi-sys/pro/rd-pro/mec/index.html NPRD-95 The Non-electronic Parts Reliability Data databook is published by the Reliability Analysis Center and provides historical field failure rate data on a wide variety of mechanical assemblies. This document has to be purchased. Electronic Reliability Mil-Hdbk-338 Electronic Reliability Design Handbook Mil-Hdbk-217 Reliability Prediction Of Electronic Equipment Mil-Hdbk-344A Environmental Stress Screening (ESS) of Electronic Equipment Down-loadable with no charge from: http://www.assistdocs.com/search/search_basic.cfm Telcordia SR-332 Handful of Websites http://www.enre.umd.edu/tools/mpp.htm http://www.isamex.org/C_Seguridad/articulosTec/maquinaria/accurate_FMEDA_mechanicalinstrument_techniques_TUV.pdf http://www.gmigasandflame.com/sil_info_levels.html http://www.iec.ch/zone/fsafety/concepts.htm http://www.relex.com/resources/prmodels.asp http://www.sae.org/ http://quanterion.com/ReliabilityQues/V1N1.htm I haven't asked everyone individually if I can credit them with the help they've provided so I'll not list names in full, but I do think their contributions should be recognised, so here's a big thank you to: Bill, Charlie, Chris, Dave, Macy, Neil, Paul, Robert and Ted Regards, Mark -- Mark Hone, HESS Manager Wellman Defence Limited Williams Road Portsmouth, Hampshire PO3 5FP, ENGLAND Tel: +44 (0)23 9266 4911 Tel: +44 (0)23 9262 9239 (Direct) Fax: +44 (0)23 9269 7864 Mobile: +44 (0)7919 047775 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
unloaded motors - EMC testing
Greetings IEEE EMC-PSTC forum members and experts. I am looking to answer some questions concerning the EMC testing of portable commercial and industrial equipment; specifically the testing of motors at “no load”. I have my own “opinions” and experience concerning these questions but I would like to get some factual data (standard reference) and documented EMC standard design philosophy if at all possible. I was hoping the IEC guide 107 would have noted this design philosophy but unless I missed it I did not see it. 1. Can someone explain how and why “no load” frequently occurs in EMC test standards? See CISPR 14-1 section 7.3 for example. 2. Why is “no load” used and why isn’t a loaded or partially loaded motor used? (other than “testing for all possible working conditions is not practical for technical and economic reasons”). Is this representative of “real world” conditions? If not how is it correlated to the “real world?” 3. Typically do the limits included in EMC standards correspond (or are reduced) to the actual application? How is this correlated to “real world” applications? Or is this covered in statements such as: “the limits given in this standard take into account uncertainties” (from CISPR 12)? As always, I look forward to your comments. Regards, Curt __ Curtis Bender | T: 616.994.4221| F: 616.994.4127 Global Technical Approvals/Lead Project Engineer Tennant Company | Creating a cleaner, safer world for 135 years. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
NARDA Probe pin-outs
Does any one have the pin configurations on the NARDA 8633 probes or the 8716 monitors? Any details to help get this set working would be appreciated. Thanks, Doug - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: unloaded motors - EMC testing
Curtis: For the testing of Military systems, I always look for the worst possible, yet normal mode of operation. Sometimes a power supply will be noisier at little load than at high load, so we usually test it at 10%, 50% and 100% loading. Electromechanical devices are operated as close to normal as possible, so that means that actuators driving flight control surfaces are loaded (with weights and/or elastomeric springs) to simulate flight loads. If I had a motor which drove a pump or blower or whatever, I would operate it at its normal speed and torque loading. If the loading was unpredictable, I would do a quick analysis of emissions to determine the worst-case operating point, and then do the rest of my emission testing in that condition. Predicting the worst-case operating condition for susceptibility (immunity) testing is a lot more difficult. If I didn't have a good engineering analysis of the EUT to help me, I would probably use the same operating condition that I used for the emission tests. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com blocked::mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Technician Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (FAX) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bender, Curtis Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 8:56 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: unloaded motors - EMC testing Greetings IEEE EMC-PSTC forum members and experts. I am looking to answer some questions concerning the EMC testing of portable commercial and industrial equipment; specifically the testing of motors at “no load”. I have my own “opinions” and experience concerning these questions but I would like to get some factual data (standard reference) and documented EMC standard design philosophy if at all possible. I was hoping the IEC guide 107 would have noted this design philosophy but unless I missed it I did not see it. 1. Can someone explain how and why “no load” frequently occurs in EMC test standards? See CISPR 14-1 section 7.3 for example. 2. Why is “no load” used and why isn’t a loaded or partially loaded motor used? (other than “testing for all possible working conditions is not practical for technical and economic reasons”). Is this representative of “real world” conditions? If not how is it correlated to the “real world?” 3. Typically do the limits included in EMC standards correspond (or are reduced) to the actual application? How is this correlated to “real world” applications? Or is this covered in statements such as: “the limits given in this standard take into account uncertainties” (from CISPR 12)? As always, I look forward to your comments. Regards, Curt __ Curtis Bender | T: 616.994.4221| F: 616.994.4127 Global Technical Approvals/Lead Project Engineer Tennant Company | Creating a cleaner, safer world for 135 years. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
ANSI C63.4 2008
Does anyone know the current status of the release of the latest revision of ANSI C63.4? It was still in comment phase during the Symposium in Detroit but was expected to publish this year I believe. Best regards, Mac Elliott [] Motorola Confidential Restricted (MCR), [ X ] Motorola Internal Use Only [] General Public - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz
That is correct. It was quickly withdrawn and reissued without the limits above 1 GHz. I'm still waiting for my updated copy from Global, too. :-) From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:54 AM To: Pettit, Ghery Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz Ghery, are you saying that the BS version has the error and was withdrawn? If so we were not notified of this action by British Standards. We get their standards through their subscription service. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 === Robert E. Heller/US-Corpora te/3M/US To Pettit, Ghery 10/30/2008 03:45 ghery.pet...@intel.com AM cc emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org Subject RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz(Document link: Robert E. Heller) So what is the bottom line? Are there or are there not limits for Europe (EN 55022) above a gig? I have copies of both BS EN 55022:2006 and BS EN 55022:2006 +A1:2007 Incorporating corrigendum no. 1. Both standards have a section 6.2 and both standards have limits from 1 to 6 GHz. BS EN 55022:2006 is listed in the OJ so I assume that it is valid. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 Pettit, Ghery ghery.pettit@int el.comTo Sent by: Jim Hulbert jim.hulb...@pb.com emc-p...@ieee.org Flavin, John john.fla...@teradata.com emc-p...@ieee.org 10/29/2008 08:45 emc-p...@ieee.org PM cc Subject RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz You must have an early copy put out by BSI. They made a mistake and included Amendment 1 to CISPR 22, Edition 5.0 and withdrew it promptly when I pointed out their error. Limits above 1 GHz should not be included in EN 55022:2006. Ghery S. Pettit, NCE Convener, CISPR SC I WG3 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:09 AM To: Flavin, John; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz EN 55022:2006 does indeed include the limits for radiated emissions in the range 1 GHz to 6 GHz. Look at section 6.2. This standard is published in the OJ and becomes compulsory under the EMC Directive as of 1 Oct 2009. Jim Hulbert, Group Leader TSO Competitive Compliance Engineering Pitney Bowes, 35 Waterview Drive, Shelton, CT 06484 Tel: 203-924-3621 (Internal 442-3621) Fax: 203-924-3352 (Internal 442-3352) From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Flavin, John Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:20 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Radiated Emission Measurements above 1GHz We have copies of AS/NZS CISPR 22:2006 and CNS 13438:2006, both of which show radiated emission limits in the range 1-6GHz. Both reference CISPR 16-1-4 for the description of the test site. (Our copy of EN55022:2006 does not show any such limits.) A few questions: Has the CISPR test site for 1GHz been decided? Has the validation method for the site been decided? If the test site or site validation method is still not settled, how does one test to the limits shown in these two standards? John D. Flavin Teradata TCP Engineering 17095 Via del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 john.fla...@teradata.com V: (858) 485-3874 F: (213) 337-5432 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web
HP Hardware Update
This isn't an ad, just info about a test hardware resource. All the usual disclaimers. I'm sending this as an FYI to owners of old HP spectrum or network analyzers. I have an HP-8562A spectrum analyzer that is a very valued resource, but the display CRT is nearing the end of its life (it's dim and the focus is pretty bad). Unfortunately, HP doesn't stock the tubes for these old analyzers (or for other 85xx, 86xx, 4195, etc analyzers too). Now there's a great opportunity to prolong the service of those old analyzers (and maybe bring some back from the dead). A company called National Test Equipment (in Oceanside): http://www.ntecusa.com/sales/dsp_model.cfm?modelID=21481 http://www.nationaltestequipment.com/ offers a drop-in LCD replacement display that replaces your old analyzer's CRT, HV and driver circuits. Your analyzer will run cooler, last longer on battery and weigh a bit less. The cost is $1,795, installed, with a 6 to 12 month warranty. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com blocked::mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Technician Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (FAX) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
