Wimax

[Steve O'Steen]

Are there any applicable compliance standards for Wimax, specifically focused
on Electromagnetic Compatibility for the EMC and R&TTE Directives?  I don’t
recall seeing anything that was harmonized but, are there publications from
work groups or technical groups that would be available?

 

Steve O'Steen

Advanced Compliance Solutions, Inc.

sost...@acstestlab.com  

770-831-8048 ext. 210

www.acstestlab.com  

 

 

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This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is confidential,
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RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

[Knighten, Jim L]

You will also require a calibration measurement uncertainty estimate to
comply with ISO 17025 and I would recommend a calibration report (test
report).

Jim

__

James L. Knighten, Ph.D.
EMC Engineer
Teradata Corporation
17095 Via Del Campo
San Diego, CA 92127

858-485-2537 - phone
858-485-3788 - fax (unattended)






From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek
Walton
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:45 AM
To: Larry Stillings
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: DIY Equipment and Calibration

HI Larry,

was this really required, in 17025, or is your assessor/accrediting body

asking?

If you are following a standard calibration method, I'm not sure you are

REQUIRED for have a procedure.

That said,I believe strongly in writing detailed work instructions ( 
what we call them), photographs really really help.

Thoughts?

Derek.

Larry Stillings wrote:
> One other thing to add to this thread (as we just went through an
audit) is
> you will need to write a test procedure for the calibration
(preferably with
> pictures of the calibration setup).
>
> Larry Stillings 
>
> -Original Message-
> From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:45 AM
> To: emc-p...@ieee.org
> Subject: RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration
>
> I believe that you will also need your calibrating equipment traceable
to a
> National Standards group such as NIST in the US.
>
> Bob Heller
> 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
> St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
> Tel:  651- 778-6336
> Fax:  651-778-6252
> ==
>
>
>

>  "Spencer, David

>  H"

>rox.com>  

>  Sent by:  

>  emc-p...@ieee.org
cc 
>

>
Subject 
>  12/11/2008 08:04  RE: DIY Equipment and
Calibration   
>  AM

>

>

>

>

>

>
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I've built several CDN's.  Repaired both CDN's and LISN's.   Never
messed
> with building an EM clamp.   Too much hassle IMO.
>
> As far as calibration,  I try to calibrate as much as is practical "in
> house".All the LISN's, ISN's, CDN's, cable loss, amplifier
performance,
> etc etc .  But in reality those "calibrations" are just
"verifications".
> To perform those verifications most people are lacking a network
impedance
> analyzer.  The test jigs or setups are easy to build or cheap to
purchase.
>
> Regarding an accrediting organization accepting the results,  you'll
need a
> process.  You can't go wrong by referencing CISPR 16 et. al.  in that
> respect.   You'll need the verification data. AND, you'll need the
> measurement uncertainty.
> The last item, you can gather from your impedance analyzer accuracy
> specifications (and calibration report) and the test jig VSWR &
losses.
>
> As for where you can send you in-house built test items,  most any
ISO17025
> test lab which calibrates EMC or similar devices can perform the
> calibration.
>
>
> Regards
>
> David Spencer
> EMC Engineer
> Xerox Corp.
>
>   From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
>   cmander...@micron.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:00 PM
>   To: emc-p...@ieee.org
>   Subject: DIY Equipment and Calibration
>
>
>
>   I'm aware of some people making their own CDN's and LISN's among
>   other things and I have few questions about that.
>   1) Has anyone tried to build their own EM Injection clamp?
>   If so, were you able to find a ferrite supplier that
sold
>   half-ring cores?
>   2) Is it acceptable to calibrate your own equipment?
>   If so, how do accrediting bodies view this, and what
>   documentation will they want to see?
>   If not, does anyone have suggestions about where in the
US I
>   can send such homemade equipment for calibration (preferably
Western
>   US to save on shipping)?
>
>
>   Thanks,
>   Chris
>
>
>   -
>   
>   This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
>   emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send
your
>   e-mail to 
>
>   All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at
>   http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
>   Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted
to
>   that URL.
>
>
>   Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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>   List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
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>
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>   David Heald 
>
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> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety E

RE: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

[Kunde, Brian]

Thanks to All for the information. It was most helpful. 




From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:42 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

In message 
<0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a60567d06...@mailserver.lecotc.com>, dated 
Thu, 11 Dec 2008, "Kunde, Brian"  writes:


>
>Thanks for the reply.  What I am looking for is a small lower current 
>outlet connector. I?m very familiar with these standard 10A appliance 
>outlet connector but this is way too big.  I?m thinking someone like 
>the 2.5A shaver connector but in an outlet instead of an inlet. 

Actually, the shaver connector is 0.2 A, and you do really mean the 2.5 
A one. I'm sure there was a message that gave you the correct steer, but 
I can't find it now, so here it is again. Please check carefully that I 
have identified the parts you want.

This is the 2-contact outlet:

http://www.schurter.ch/pdf/english/typ_5088.pdf

This is the 3-contact outlet:

http://www.schurter.ch/pdf/english/typ_5888.pdf


and these are the moulded-on free connectors:

http://www.schurter.ch/pdf/english/typ_2731.pdf

http://www.schurter.ch/pdf/english/typ_2705.pdf
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error.  Thank  you.

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Re: Fax machines in Russia

[John Woodgate]

In message , dated Thu, 11 Dec 
2008, Nick Williams  writes:


>Please can anyone advise me how to identify and obtain copies of the 
>standards which apply for fax machines in Russia?

What was Gossstandart now lives on the web at:

http://www.gost.ru/wps/portal/

There is an English language portal at:

http://www.gost.ru/wps/portal/pages.en.Main

For safety and EMC, Russia normally uses the IEC and CISPR standards, 
but there may be national modifications. The operational standards, 
however, MAY relate to ITU-T standards, but may differ considerably, and 
I don't know whether you can get them from the Agency.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: 'built standard' and inclusion in EC DoC?

[John Woodgate]

In message 
, dated Thu, 11 Dec 2008, david.cole...@selex-comms.com writes:


>What arguments does/has anyone used to convince senior management (who 
>are requiring 'built standard' info to be included on the DoC), that 
>this is not the right course to take, bearing in mind that 'built 
>standard' information is already included in the relevant assessment 
>reports / Technical File, that support the DoC?

It's very difficult to understand why anyone would want to put the 
'built standard' on the DoC. You could be producing a new DoC every few 
days, and putting in place a procedure that ensures that every shipment 
goes out with the correct version. It's not required by the Directive.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Re: DIY Equipment and Calibration

[Derek Walton]

HI Larry,

was this really required, in 17025, or is your assessor/accrediting body 
asking?

If you are following a standard calibration method, I'm not sure you are 
REQUIRED for have a procedure.

That said,I believe strongly in writing detailed work instructions ( 
what we call them), photographs really really help.

Thoughts?

Derek.

Larry Stillings wrote:
> One other thing to add to this thread (as we just went through an audit) is
> you will need to write a test procedure for the calibration (preferably with
> pictures of the calibration setup).
>
> Larry Stillings 
>
> -Original Message-
> From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:45 AM
> To: emc-p...@ieee.org
> Subject: RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration
>
> I believe that you will also need your calibrating equipment traceable to a
> National Standards group such as NIST in the US.
>
> Bob Heller
> 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
> St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
> Tel:  651- 778-6336
> Fax:  651-778-6252
> ==
>
>
>
>  "Spencer, David   
>  H"
>rox.com>   
>  Sent by:   
>  emc-p...@ieee.org  cc 
>
>Subject 
>  12/11/2008 08:04  RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration   
>  AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I've built several CDN's.  Repaired both CDN's and LISN's.   Never messed
> with building an EM clamp.   Too much hassle IMO.
>
> As far as calibration,  I try to calibrate as much as is practical "in
> house".All the LISN's, ISN's, CDN's, cable loss, amplifier performance,
> etc etc .  But in reality those "calibrations" are just "verifications".
> To perform those verifications most people are lacking a network impedance
> analyzer.  The test jigs or setups are easy to build or cheap to purchase.
>
> Regarding an accrediting organization accepting the results,  you'll need a
> process.  You can't go wrong by referencing CISPR 16 et. al.  in that
> respect.   You'll need the verification data. AND, you'll need the
> measurement uncertainty.
> The last item, you can gather from your impedance analyzer accuracy
> specifications (and calibration report) and the test jig VSWR & losses.
>
> As for where you can send you in-house built test items,  most any ISO17025
> test lab which calibrates EMC or similar devices can perform the
> calibration.
>
>
> Regards
>
> David Spencer
> EMC Engineer
> Xerox Corp.
>
>   From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
>   cmander...@micron.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:00 PM
>   To: emc-p...@ieee.org
>   Subject: DIY Equipment and Calibration
>
>
>
>   I'm aware of some people making their own CDN's and LISN's among
>   other things and I have few questions about that.
>   1) Has anyone tried to build their own EM Injection clamp?
>   If so, were you able to find a ferrite supplier that sold
>   half-ring cores?
>   2) Is it acceptable to calibrate your own equipment?
>   If so, how do accrediting bodies view this, and what
>   documentation will they want to see?
>   If not, does anyone have suggestions about where in the US I
>   can send such homemade equipment for calibration (preferably Western
>   US to save on shipping)?
>
>
>   Thanks,
>   Chris
>
>
>   -
>   
>   This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
>   emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
>   e-mail to 
>
>   All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at
>   http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
>   Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to
>   that URL.
>
>
>   Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>   Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
>   List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
>
>   For help, send mail to the lis

RE:'built standard' and inclusion in EC DoC?

[Kunde, Brian]

I’m not familiar with the term ‘built standard’ but I assume you are
referring to listing the EMC test standards and maybe levels tested in the
DOC.  When it comes to the DOC I’m all in favor of including as much
information as possible. It helps out our marketing and sales as well as our
customers for they know exactly what standards we tested to and to what
levels.  It is right there on the DOC and they do not have to request the test
reports to find out.

 

On the other side of the coin, I hate receiving a DOC for a product we might
buy/sell and it only lists the Directives and Family Standard.  In our world
that would be the EN 61326-1 standard for EMC which has several different sets
of requirements depending on the environment, so if a DOC only lists the
standard I know nothing about what the product is designed and tested to for
EMC.  Generally when I see this I’m thinking the manufacturer is trying to
hide something (just the way my mind works).

 

We retest everything we make every year or so to verify it is still compliant
and gives us a change to test our products to the latest requirements (which
seem to be ever changing).  When I get a DOC for a power supply dated 1996 and
the manufacturer tells me they never retest or audit,  that scares me a little
bit.  So after I do a 2KV surge test and blow its guts out, I hand the power
supply back to the engineer with a little grin on my face and tell him/her to
find a new source.

 

I hope I was somewhere in the ballpark with my reply.

 

The Other Brian

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
david.cole...@selex-comms.com
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:01 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

 


Group, 

When producing EC Declarations of Conformity, it is not usual to include a
statement of the 'built standard' of the equipment as type tested. Indeed this
does not appear to be a requirement listed by EN 17050, listing only the model
number as being required. 

Obviously the 'built standard' will change during a production run, and
suitable management processes have to be in place to control any changes to
ensure the continued compliance of the equipment. Any significant change may
require update to the DoC as necessary, but generally such DoC updates are
only required when a major revision of the equipment occurs. 

What arguments does/has anyone used to convince senior management (who are
requiring 'built standard' info to be included on the DoC), that this is not
the right course to take, bearing in mind that 'built standard' information is
already included in the relevant assessment reports / Technical File, that
support the DoC? 

Best Regards,
Dave Coleman AIIRSM
SELEX Communications
Signal House, Grange Road
Christchurch
Dorset BH23 4JE
*  +44 (0)1202 404200
Mobile  +44 (0)787 9652126
Fax  +44 (0)1202 404921
*  david.cole...@selex-comms.com 

This email and any attached files contains company confidential information
which may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the person(s) or
entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein.
If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error
please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any
local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email
including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing,
distributing, amending or using for any other purpose.

In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common
law) for damage or breach arising or related to this email including but not
limited to viruses and libel.
SELEX Communications Limited is a Private Limited Company registered in
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Lambda House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon, SS14 3EL. England.
-

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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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_ 

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 
-

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All emc-pstc postings are ar

Re: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a60567d06...@mailserver.lecotc.com>, dated 
Thu, 11 Dec 2008, "Kunde, Brian"  writes:


>
>Thanks for the reply.  What I am looking for is a small lower current 
>outlet connector. I?m very familiar with these standard 10A appliance 
>outlet connector but this is way too big.  I?m thinking someone like 
>the 2.5A shaver connector but in an outlet instead of an inlet. 

Actually, the shaver connector is 0.2 A, and you do really mean the 2.5 
A one. I'm sure there was a message that gave you the correct steer, but 
I can't find it now, so here it is again. Please check carefully that I 
have identified the parts you want.

This is the 2-contact outlet:

http://www.schurter.ch/pdf/english/typ_5088.pdf

This is the 3-contact outlet:

http://www.schurter.ch/pdf/english/typ_5888.pdf


and these are the moulded-on free connectors:

http://www.schurter.ch/pdf/english/typ_2731.pdf

http://www.schurter.ch/pdf/english/typ_2705.pdf
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL.

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

[Spencer, David H]

Larry,

For EMC calibrations done in house, I don't think you "have" to write a
procedure if the standard calls out the procedure. 
Clearly if you are doing something unique, or a calibrating a unit which
does not have parameters covered in a standard you need a written
procedure.  

With our Quality Manual, we use the KISS frame of mind for everything.  

If a given reference standard calls out the procedure, we simply
reference that procedure as our process for calibration.
Why would you write a procedure for NSA or LISN verification when it's
called out in C63.4, CISPR 16, or CISPR 22?

An assessor would have a hard time writing a deficiency on that account
(provided you actually use the standard as the process).

Any assessors willing to comment?


Dave Spencer

 


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Stillings
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:50 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

One other thing to add to this thread (as we just went through an audit)
is
you will need to write a test procedure for the calibration (preferably
with
pictures of the calibration setup).

Larry Stillings 


From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:45 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

I believe that you will also need your calibrating equipment traceable
to a
National Standards group such as NIST in the US.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
==


 

 "Spencer, David

 H"

   

 Sent by:  

 emc-p...@ieee.org
cc 
 

 
Subject 
 12/11/2008 08:04  RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

 AM

 

 

 

 

 





Chris,

I've built several CDN's.  Repaired both CDN's and LISN's.   Never
messed
with building an EM clamp.   Too much hassle IMO.

As far as calibration,  I try to calibrate as much as is practical "in
house".All the LISN's, ISN's, CDN's, cable loss, amplifier
performance,
etc etc .  But in reality those "calibrations" are just "verifications".
To perform those verifications most people are lacking a network
impedance
analyzer.  The test jigs or setups are easy to build or cheap to
purchase.

Regarding an accrediting organization accepting the results,  you'll
need a
process.  You can't go wrong by referencing CISPR 16 et. al.  in that
respect.   You'll need the verification data. AND, you'll need the
measurement uncertainty.
The last item, you can gather from your impedance analyzer accuracy
specifications (and calibration report) and the test jig VSWR & losses.

As for where you can send you in-house built test items,  most any
ISO17025
test lab which calibrates EMC or similar devices can perform the
calibration.


Regards

David Spencer
EMC Engineer
Xerox Corp.

  From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
  cmander...@micron.com
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:00 PM
  To: emc-p...@ieee.org
  Subject: DIY Equipment and Calibration



  I'm aware of some people making their own CDN's and LISN's among
  other things and I have few questions about that.
  1) Has anyone tried to build their own EM Injection clamp?
  If so, were you able to find a ferrite supplier that sold
  half-ring cores?
  2) Is it acceptable to calibrate your own equipment?
  If so, how do accrediting bodies view this, and what
  documentation will they want to see?
  If not, does anyone have suggestions about where in the US
I
  can send such homemade equipment for calibration (preferably
Western
  US to save on shipping)?


  Thanks,
  Chris


  -
  
  This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
  emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
  e-mail to 

  All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at
  http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
  Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted
to
  that URL.


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  Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
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  For help, send mail to the list administrators:
  Scott Douglas 
  Mike Cantwell 


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  Jim Bacher 
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emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
emc-p...@ieee.org>

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Graphics (in well-used formats), large 

RE: semi-anechoic chambers and smoke alarms

[Kunde, Brian]

Doug,

 

We had the exact same issue with our large chamber.  The insurance company
knows little to nothing about chambers but what they do know is that your
employer wants them to pay for a new chamber if it is damaged in a fire which
would be in the millions of dollars so they will do everything to be on the
safe side.  

 

After they walk through, I’m sure the insurance people did a little research
and found out that 20 years ago an anechoic chamber caught on file and burnt
down an entire facility.  What they don’t know is that they were putting out
10,000 watts of RF power with the antenna pointed at the rf absorber material
and got it hot enough to catch it on fire, so yes, even though your TDK
absorber material is UL recognized it will catch on fire if you get it hot
enough.  

 

Another new area of concerns is below elevated floors (mostly do to recent
fires in server rooms) where cables runs are done.  Over-current in a cable or
power run can start a fire below the floor.  Or a fault in the AC system can
cause electronic equipment to heat up quickly and possibly catch fire. 
Burning plastics/liquids above the floor can run down beneath the floor where
it gets plenty of air to burn even hotter because this area is used as the
Cold Air Return for the AC.  Smoke below the floor would not be detected by
your Air Sampling Smoke detector system in your chamber (Vesda System?).  The
Cold Air returns in our chamber have Smoke Detectors in the ducts just outside
the chamber which seems to make the insurance people happy.  These smoke
detectors are very common (and required by code) which shuts down the heat/AC
if smoke is detected so the blower doesn’t blow/suck air and make a fire
worst.  If you check you may already have them installed. 

 

Our chamber fire protection system, the smoke detectors in the cold air
returns and a separate fire protection system for the entire building all
reports incidences to ADT who depending on the type of alarm notified the fire
department or police (for break-ins). 

 

I’m surprised the insurance company didn’t get you with the fact that if
the power goes out there are no emergency lights inside your chamber.  We
fought and fought over that one. We ended up putting Glow in the Dark tape on
the floor to mark the doorway and on the inside chamber door handle.  

 

Have fun.

The Other Brian

 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Doug Kramer
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:34 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: semi-anechoic chambers and smoke alarms

 

Good morning,

 

I’ve got a question for the chamber experts and experienced folk here. 
Please respond off-line unless it would be to the betterment of the group at
large.

 

We’ve just received the results of a business insurance audit.

The only area of our building with a fire suppression system/monitored smoke
alarm system is the 10m semi-anechoic chamber, essentially an ETS FACT 10 with
TDK Closed cell Styrofoam over ferrite tiles.  As we were walking through the
facility,  we had the turntable open, the auditor inquired as to the reason. 
My response when she asked the questions as to why it was opened was ”I
don’t know, I’ll have to look into it”, and then she did not follow up
and I did not further answer.  The reason to the curious, was to move some
auxiliary equipment placed there during testing and to unplug the 160A service
to the EUT.   

 

We have since received her recommendation letter.  In which she recommends
“In order to promptly notify the fire department in the event of a fire, an
approved fire detection system should be installed in all areas of the
building including below the elevated floor in the Semi-anechoic chamber, in
accordance with the latest edition of NFPA 72 National Fire Alarm Code, and
alarm signals should be automatically transmitted to a UL listed central
station or directly to the fire department or public dispatcher.”

 

The general fire detection portion I’ve always wondered why it was never
installed, but under the raised floor of the chamber?

 

The questions:  

1)  Why is a 10m chamber required to have a fire suppression system when
testing is monitored (or should be as some of the last posts point out), any
personnel in the room have 2 exits, there is normally not any personnel in the
chamber, and besides the EUT, is there any combustible material in the room?

2)  In the crawl space under the floor, besides the turntable motor, ODE
converter, power receptacles and occasionally auxiliary equipment, is there
anything that is combustible? 

 

Thanks,

 

Doug Kramer

Lab Manager

NCEE Labs

Product Compliance Solutions

Phone: 402.472.5880

Toll Free: 1.888.567.6860

Fax: 402.472.5881

Email: dkra...@nceelabs.com  

www.nceelabs.com  

 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:  This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
for the sole use of the in

RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

[Larry Stillings]

One other thing to add to this thread (as we just went through an audit) is
you will need to write a test procedure for the calibration (preferably with
pictures of the calibration setup).

Larry Stillings 


From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:45 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

I believe that you will also need your calibrating equipment traceable to a
National Standards group such as NIST in the US.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
==


   
 "Spencer, David   
 H"

 Sent by:   
 emc-p...@ieee.org  cc 
   
   Subject 
 12/11/2008 08:04  RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration   
 AM
   
   
   
   
   




Chris,

I've built several CDN's.  Repaired both CDN's and LISN's.   Never messed
with building an EM clamp.   Too much hassle IMO.

As far as calibration,  I try to calibrate as much as is practical "in
house".All the LISN's, ISN's, CDN's, cable loss, amplifier performance,
etc etc .  But in reality those "calibrations" are just "verifications".
To perform those verifications most people are lacking a network impedance
analyzer.  The test jigs or setups are easy to build or cheap to purchase.

Regarding an accrediting organization accepting the results,  you'll need a
process.  You can't go wrong by referencing CISPR 16 et. al.  in that
respect.   You'll need the verification data. AND, you'll need the
measurement uncertainty.
The last item, you can gather from your impedance analyzer accuracy
specifications (and calibration report) and the test jig VSWR & losses.

As for where you can send you in-house built test items,  most any ISO17025
test lab which calibrates EMC or similar devices can perform the
calibration.


Regards

David Spencer
EMC Engineer
Xerox Corp.

  From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
  cmander...@micron.com
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:00 PM
  To: emc-p...@ieee.org
  Subject: DIY Equipment and Calibration



  I'm aware of some people making their own CDN's and LISN's among
  other things and I have few questions about that.
  1) Has anyone tried to build their own EM Injection clamp?
  If so, were you able to find a ferrite supplier that sold
  half-ring cores?
  2) Is it acceptable to calibrate your own equipment?
  If so, how do accrediting bodies view this, and what
  documentation will they want to see?
  If not, does anyone have suggestions about where in the US I
  can send such homemade equipment for calibration (preferably Western
  US to save on shipping)?


  Thanks,
  Chris


  -
  
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  emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
  e-mail to 

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  that URL.


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Fax machines in Russia

[Nick Williams]

Please can anyone advise me how to identify and obtain copies of the 
standards which apply for fax machines in Russia?

Thanks and regards

Nick.

-

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Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

[reheller]

I believe that you will also need your calibrating equipment traceable to a
National Standards group such as NIST in the US.

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
==


   
 "Spencer, David   
 H"

 Sent by:   
 emc-p...@ieee.org  cc 
   
   Subject 
 12/11/2008 08:04  RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration   
 AM
   
   
   
   
   




Chris,

I've built several CDN's.  Repaired both CDN's and LISN's.   Never messed
with building an EM clamp.   Too much hassle IMO.

As far as calibration,  I try to calibrate as much as is practical "in
house".All the LISN's, ISN's, CDN's, cable loss, amplifier performance,
etc etc .  But in reality those "calibrations" are just "verifications".
To perform those verifications most people are lacking a network impedance
analyzer.  The test jigs or setups are easy to build or cheap to purchase.

Regarding an accrediting organization accepting the results,  you'll need a
process.  You can't go wrong by referencing CISPR 16 et. al.  in that
respect.   You'll need the verification data. AND, you'll need the
measurement uncertainty.
The last item, you can gather from your impedance analyzer accuracy
specifications (and calibration report) and the test jig VSWR & losses.

As for where you can send you in-house built test items,  most any ISO17025
test lab which calibrates EMC or similar devices can perform the
calibration.


Regards

David Spencer
EMC Engineer
Xerox Corp.

  From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
  cmander...@micron.com
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:00 PM
  To: emc-p...@ieee.org
  Subject: DIY Equipment and Calibration



  I'm aware of some people making their own CDN's and LISN's among
  other things and I have few questions about that.
  1) Has anyone tried to build their own EM Injection clamp?
  If so, were you able to find a ferrite supplier that sold
  half-ring cores?
  2) Is it acceptable to calibrate your own equipment?
  If so, how do accrediting bodies view this, and what
  documentation will they want to see?
  If not, does anyone have suggestions about where in the US I
  can send such homemade equipment for calibration (preferably Western
  US to save on shipping)?


  Thanks,
  Chris


  -
  
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  emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
  e-mail to 

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  Jim Bacher 
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'built standard' and inclusion in EC DoC?

[david.coleman]

Group, 

Sorry, the subject of this question should have been as above ... (Oh, the
wonders of copy & paste !)
Best Regards,
Dave Coleman AIIRSM

__ 



Group, 

When producing EC Declarations of Conformity, it is not usual to include a
statement of the 'built standard' of the equipment as type tested. Indeed this
does not appear to be a requirement listed by EN 17050, listing only the model
number as being required. 

Obviously the 'built standard' will change during a production run, and
suitable management processes have to be in place to control any changes to
ensure the continued compliance of the equipment. Any significant change may
require update to the DoC as necessary, but generally such DoC updates are
only required when a major revision of the equipment occurs. 

What arguments does/has anyone used to convince senior management (who are
requiring 'built standard' info to be included on the DoC), that this is not
the right course to take, bearing in mind that 'built standard' information is
already included in the relevant assessment reports / Technical File, that
support the DoC? 

Best Regards, 
Dave Coleman AIIRSM 
SELEX Communications 
Signal House, Grange Road 
Christchurch 
Dorset BH23 4JE 
(  +44 (0)1202 404200 
Mobile  +44 (0)787 9652126 
Fax  +44 (0)1202 404921 
*  david.cole...@selex-comms.com 
 
This email and any attached files contains company confidential information
which may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the person(s) or
entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein.
 If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error
please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any
local copies.  It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email
including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing,
distributing, amending or using for any other purpose. 

In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common
law) for damage or breach arising or related to this email including but not
limited to viruses and libel. 
SELEX Communications Limited is a Private Limited Company registered in
England and Wales under Company Number 964533 and whose Registered Office is
Lambda House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon, SS14 3EL. England. 
- 
 
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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
 > 

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This email and any attached files contains company confidential information
which may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the person(s) or
entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein.
If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error
please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any
local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email
including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing,
distributing, amending or using for any other purpose.

In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common
law) for damage or bre ach arising or related to this email including but not
limited to viruses and libel.
SELEX Communications Limited is a Private Limited Company registered in
England and Wales under Company Number 964533 and whose Registered Office is
Lambda House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon, SS14 3EL. England.
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RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

[david.coleman]

Group, 

When producing EC Declarations of Conformity, it is not usual to include a
statement of the 'built standard' of the equipment as type tested. Indeed this
does not appear to be a requirement listed by EN 17050, listing only the model
number as being required. 

Obviously the 'built standard' will change during a production run, and
suitable management processes have to be in place to control any changes to
ensure the continued compliance of the equipment. Any significant change may
require update to the DoC as necessary, but generally such DoC updates are
only required when a major revision of the equipment occurs. 

What arguments does/has anyone used to convince senior management (who are
requiring 'built standard' info to be included on the DoC), that this is not
the right course to take, bearing in mind that 'built standard' information is
already included in the relevant assessment reports / Technical File, that
support the DoC? 

Best Regards,
Dave Coleman AIIRSM
SELEX Communications
Signal House, Grange Road
Christchurch
Dorset BH23 4JE
*  +44 (0)1202 404200
Mobile  +44 (0)787 9652126
Fax  +44 (0)1202 404921
*  david.cole...@selex-comms.com 

This email and any attached files contains company confidential information
which may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the person(s) or
entity to which it is addressed and solely for the purposes set forth therein.
If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error
please notify the sender by return, delete it from your system and destroy any
local copies. It is strictly forbidden to use the information in this email
including any attachment or part thereof including copying, disclosing,
distributing, amending or using for any other purpose.

In addition the sender excludes all liabilities (whether tortious or common
law) for damage or bre ach arising or related to this email including but not
limited to viruses and libel.
SELEX Communications Limited is a Private Limited Company registered in
England and Wales under Company Number 964533 and whose Registered Office is
Lambda House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon, SS14 3EL. England.
-

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RE: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

[Kunde, Brian]

James,

Thanks for the reply.  What I am looking for is a small lower current outlet
connector. I’m very familiar with these standard 10A appliance outlet
connector but this is way too big.  I’m thinking someone like the 2.5A
shaver connector but in an outlet instead of an inlet.  

Thanks again,

Brian



From: James, Chris [mailto:c...@dolby.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:28 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

 

BULGIN   PX0675/PC
 

BULGIN   PX0783/15/28
 

SCHURTER   6600.4115
 

SWITCHCRAFT   EAC-305
 



 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian
Sent: 10 December 2008 19:32
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

 

I’m looking for an AC Outlet connector similar to the IEC 60320 C6 or C8,
but an outlet instead of an inlet.  I need to run AC power out of my product
to a small external device which mounts on the side (lab equipment) and will
only draw less than 2 amps at 230 Vrms. I do not want to use the large
Appliance outlet connector. Any suggestions?  I checked Interpower and Power
Dynamics but no luck.  Wouldn’t such an application require the ground pin
to mate first and break last?  If so then I would be able to use just any
connector. 

The Other Brian

 

_ 

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 

_ 

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 
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intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not the intended
recipient, delete this message. If you are not the intended recipient,
disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action based on this message
is strictly prohibited. 

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RE: DIY Equipment and Calibration

[Spencer, David H]

Chris,
 
I've built several CDN's.  Repaired both CDN's and LISN's.   Never messed with
building an EM clamp.   Too much hassle IMO.
 
As far as calibration,  I try to calibrate as much as is practical "in house".
   All the LISN's, ISN's, CDN's, cable loss, amplifier performance, etc etc . 
But in reality those "calibrations" are just "verifications".
To perform those verifications most people are lacking a network impedance
analyzer.  The test jigs or setups are easy to build or cheap to purchase.
 
Regarding an accrediting organization accepting the results,  you'll need a
process.  You can't go wrong by referencing CISPR 16 et. al.  in that respect.
  You'll need the verification data. AND, you'll need the measurement
uncertainty.
The last item, you can gather from your impedance analyzer accuracy
specifications (and calibration report) and the test jig VSWR & losses.   
 
As for where you can send you in-house built test items,  most any ISO17025
test lab which calibrates EMC or similar devices can perform the calibration. 
 
 
Regards
 
David Spencer
EMC Engineer
Xerox Corp.




From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
cmander...@micron.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:00 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: DIY Equipment and Calibration



I'm aware of some people making their own CDN's and LISN's among other 
things
and I have few questions about that.  
1) Has anyone tried to build their own EM Injection clamp? 
If so, were you able to find a ferrite supplier that sold 
half-ring
cores? 
2) Is it acceptable to calibrate your own equipment? 
If so, how do accrediting bodies view this, and what 
documentation
will they want to see? 
If not, does anyone have suggestions about where in the US I 
can send
such homemade equipment for calibration (preferably Western US to save on
shipping)?

Thanks, 
Chris 

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RE: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

[James, Chris]

Anyone receiving my original msg in html rather than text format will see  Mfr 
and MPN text which have embedded hyperlink javascript links.

The intent was just to supply Mfr and MPN text... the hyperlinks won't work 
for you.




From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: 11 December 2008 09:44
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

In message , 
dated Thu, 11 Dec 2008, "James, Chris"  writes:


>
>BULGIN PX0675/PC
>
>BULGIN PX0783/15/28
>
>SCHURTER 6600.4115
>
>SWITCHCRAFT EAC-305
>
> 
Those are not URLs but javascript links. How can one use them to 
retrieve the data?
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential
information intended for a specific individual and purpose.  If you
are not the intended recipient, delete this message.  If you are
not the intended recipient, disclosing, copying, distributing, or
taking any action based on this message is strictly prohibited.

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RE: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

[James, Chris]

No one said they were urls - they are Mfrs and MPNs which I just whipped out 
our parts database.

If the site supported attachments I'd have included pdfs

It does not take much with google to find the website and part concerned

Try googlin' "BULGIN PX0675/PC" - you'll find it 4th hit down.

Same for remainder I expect..







From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: 11 December 2008 09:44
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

In message , 
dated Thu, 11 Dec 2008, "James, Chris"  writes:


>
>BULGIN PX0675/PC
>
>BULGIN PX0783/15/28
>
>SCHURTER 6600.4115
>
>SWITCHCRAFT EAC-305
>
> 
Those are not URLs but javascript links. How can one use them to 
retrieve the data?
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential
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are not the intended recipient, delete this message.  If you are
not the intended recipient, disclosing, copying, distributing, or
taking any action based on this message is strictly prohibited.

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Re: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

[John Woodgate]

In message , 
dated Thu, 11 Dec 2008, "James, Chris"  writes:


>
>BULGIN PX0675/PC
>
>BULGIN PX0783/15/28
>
>SCHURTER 6600.4115
>
>SWITCHCRAFT EAC-305
>
> 
Those are not URLs but javascript links. How can one use them to 
retrieve the data?
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Either we are causing global warming, in which case we may be able to stop it,
or natural variation is causing it, and we probably can't stop it. You choose!
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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RE: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

[James, Chris]

BULGIN   PX0675/PC
 

BULGIN   PX0783/15/28
 

SCHURTER   6600.4115
 

SWITCHCRAFT   EAC-305
 



 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian
Sent: 10 December 2008 19:32
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Outlet Connector 250VAC 2.5 amps

 

I’m looking for an AC Outlet connector similar to the IEC 60320 C6 or C8,
but an outlet instead of an inlet.  I need to run AC power out of my product
to a small external device which mounts on the side (lab equipment) and will
only draw less than 2 amps at 230 Vrms. I do not want to use the large
Appliance outlet connector. Any suggestions?  I checked Interpower and Power
Dynamics but no luck.  Wouldn’t such an application require the ground pin
to mate first and break last?  If so then I would be able to use just any
connector. 

The Other Brian

 

_ 

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 

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This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential information
intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not the intended
recipient, delete this message. If you are not the intended recipient,
disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action based on this message
is strictly prohibited. 

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RE: Common-mode emissions from SMPS

[Gert Gremmen]

SMPS CM emissions

Consider a spherical SMPS ;<))

For the analysis the AC rectifier is not relevant.
Basically a SMPS power supply is
a switch connected between phases with
a coil before it and a  rectifier C
combination behind it. All other
topologies are variations on the theme.

Like this

PLUS  COIL  DIODE--
 |  |
  SWITCH  CAP
 |  |
MINUS -


The current in the coil rises linear with the time
and descends linear with time on the operation
frequency of the switch.
This current must be provided by the source, of which
the high frequency parts should be filtered out by a
cap in the supply (may be part of the SMPS).
This is a differential current in plus and minus wire.
Enough DM filtering gets rid of it.
Regarding the enclosure around the SMPS, there are caps
between (hot) wiring and enclosure ground (I am not saying minus or smps
ground)
If conductor A carries +Vdiff and conductor B -Vdiff then,
as these capacitors are different (almost by design),
both conductors will have an different Vcommonmode  to encl. ground.
Voila a source of CM current.
Another source is the difference in ground potential between
DC and AC side, often combat by a capacitor between primary
and secondary ground and this one creates those horrible leakage
currents Pete Perkins was referring to. Decent ground screens in
the insulation transformers can help.

Basically it is the physical asymmetries in the smps that create
Common mode currents. 



Gert Gremmen




Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Pete Perkins
Verzonden: donderdag 11 december 2008 5:37
Aan: PSNet
Onderwerp: RE: Common-mode emissions from SMPS

Fellow travelers,

I'm pleased to see the explanations put forward on this discussion
thread.  

It all fits with my own issue of measuring Touch Current leaking to
ground which has grown with the advent of SMPS.  

If you want to see a collexion of TC waveforms that I've collected
>from an assortment of equipment go to Art Michael's www.safetylink.com
and
search on my name (Perkins) and you will find the waveform paper.  

My ongoing interest has been in the LF portion of this current (up
to 1 MHz) rather than the HF EMC effects.  

But the data shows that the current to earth has grown away from
sinusoidal waveforms since SMPS were introduced in equipment.  As some
have
noticed, the crappiness factor has increased with time, especially with
the
addition of PFC.  

We electric shock folks understand that the body reacts to peak
currents rather than the RMS currents normally considered in safety
standards.  Getting rid of those old RMS meters and moving to a peak
reading
meter or scope gets to the correct TC value to be considered for
protection
>from electric shock.  A large portion of the world still lives in the
Dark
Ages in this regard.  

I remember dealing with the triplen harmonics in the 80's when they
were not well understood or attributed to SMPS in 3 phase systems.  The
resulting transformer fires from these harmonics which circulated in
delta
primaries clouded the analysis (not my problem seemed to be a first
analysis
result).  Accepting responsibility allowed the problem to be addressed
in a
rational way. 

As with all of life, unintended consequences cloud perfectly clear
decisions that were made in good faith.  

So all our lives keep getting more difficult as the technology is
improved.  

Well, us technical folks see trouble as opportunity.  

Keep the faith.  

Enjoy the waveforms.  :>)

Br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer

p.perk...@ieee.org

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RE: Common-mode emissions from SMPS

[Pete Perkins]

Fellow travelers,

I'm pleased to see the explanations put forward on this discussion
thread.  

It all fits with my own issue of measuring Touch Current leaking to
ground which has grown with the advent of SMPS.  

If you want to see a collexion of TC waveforms that I've collected
>from an assortment of equipment go to Art Michael's www.safetylink.com and
search on my name (Perkins) and you will find the waveform paper.  

My ongoing interest has been in the LF portion of this current (up
to 1 MHz) rather than the HF EMC effects.  

But the data shows that the current to earth has grown away from
sinusoidal waveforms since SMPS were introduced in equipment.  As some have
noticed, the crappiness factor has increased with time, especially with the
addition of PFC.  

We electric shock folks understand that the body reacts to peak
currents rather than the RMS currents normally considered in safety
standards.  Getting rid of those old RMS meters and moving to a peak reading
meter or scope gets to the correct TC value to be considered for protection
>from electric shock.  A large portion of the world still lives in the Dark
Ages in this regard.  

I remember dealing with the triplen harmonics in the 80's when they
were not well understood or attributed to SMPS in 3 phase systems.  The
resulting transformer fires from these harmonics which circulated in delta
primaries clouded the analysis (not my problem seemed to be a first analysis
result).  Accepting responsibility allowed the problem to be addressed in a
rational way. 

As with all of life, unintended consequences cloud perfectly clear
decisions that were made in good faith.  

So all our lives keep getting more difficult as the technology is
improved.  

Well, us technical folks see trouble as opportunity.  

Keep the faith.  

Enjoy the waveforms.  :>)

Br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer

p.perk...@ieee.org

-

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