Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[Ralph McDiarmid]

The IEC store has IEC TR 62368-2:2019 RLV for 553 Swiss Francs.   Ouch.

 

From: John Woodgate  
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 1:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

 

You can get 62368-2 from: https://www.evs.ee/en/iec-tr-62368-2-2019, but it is 
rather costly.

On 2024-05-08 21:00, Piotr Galka wrote:

After reading your post my decision was to buy 62368-2 but I've just checked 
that in PKN (Polish Standards Committee) I can buy 62368-1 what I have done 
long ago but they don't have 62368-2 :( .

-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only
Best wishes
John Woodgate, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Keep trying

 


 

 

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Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[John Woodgate]

You can get 62368-2 from: https://www.evs.ee/en/iec-tr-62368-2-2019, but 
it is rather costly.


On 2024-05-08 21:00, Piotr Galka wrote:
After reading your post my decision was to buy 62368-2 but I've just 
checked that in PKN (Polish Standards Committee) I can buy 62368-1 
what I have done long ago but they don't have 62368-2 :( .

--
Signature OOO - Own Opinions Only
Best wishes
John Woodgate, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Keep trying

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[Piotr Galka]

Hi Bostjan,

I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered 
being without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says 
about circuits being external and indicated in table 14 and according to 
my understanding 3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in 
table 14 for me didn't make for me USB being not indicated in table.
In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up 
to 50V temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 
steps protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning 
struck directly into the building, many systems stopped working, but 
ours did.

I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit.
Thanks a lot.

I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering 
to Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard 
Committee offer.


Best regards
Piotr Galka


W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze:

Hi Piotr

If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit 
with transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 
62151 and IEC 62102 which clasify external circuits.


From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered 
as external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between 
external circuit and PE are specified.


Did you also check 62368-2?

Best regards
Bostjan





Poslano iz Outlook za Android 


*Od:* Piotr Galka 
*Poslano:* sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM
*Za:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
*Zadeva:* Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

Hi Bostjan,

Thanks for your feedback, but...

I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time.
It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is
external to the equipment and is not mains".
I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an
equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1
but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is
equipment.
May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be
assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard)
can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other
equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains
connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment?
Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They
can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think.
In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna
located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having
all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is
equipment internal circuit.

Now.
If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and
printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control
controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one
equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building)
making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit?
I don't think so.

And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller
permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to
mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply
has isolation in it.
If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 12V
supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood
equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if
controller is manufactured by someone other then 12V supply.

Best regards
Piotr Galka

W dniu 2024-05-07 o 19:49, Boštjan Glavič pisze:
> Hi Piotr
>
> USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on 
USB. Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output.

>
> Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old 
times (analogue network, ISDN,...).

>
> I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me.
>
> Best regards,
> Boštjan
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Piotr Galka 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do 
not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender 
and know the content is safe.

>
>
> Trying to understand 62368-1...
>
> I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not 
excluded from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1.

> For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and
> 2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 
'Any other conductors').
> The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for 
external circuits installed wholly within the same building is only 
about transients so I 

Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[Piotr Galka]

Hi John,

I hoped you will answer my question and I got important information from 
you. Thanks.


After reading your post my decision was to buy 62368-2 but I've just 
checked that in PKN (Polish Standards Committee) I can buy 62368-1 what 
I have done long ago but they don't have 62368-2 :( .


Even not seeing explanations the requirements should be so written that 
there should be no doubts when reading them. I really don't know how to 
read 3.3.1.1 to understand USB as internal, but I accept to understand 
it as internal.


This laptop and USB is an example that should help me to understand the 
standard and I think I got pointing in the right direction (I am using 
USB (desktop RFID card readers/writers, pen-drive like devices 
implementing crypto functions)).


Our access control devices accept 12 or 24V supply (I think 99% 
installations use 12V because such supplies/batteries are more popular). 
We use RS485 that we require the whole bus being in one building. We use 
Ethernet but when connecting many controllers to it the routers/switches 
also are close to them so we also specify that this connection have to 
be in one building.


Since 2020 we had very hard time because ATXmega microcontrollers (and 
also other ICs) we used disappeared from marked and we had to redesign 
all our products to the other IC that happened to be able to buy. The 
side effect is that all our CE declarations are outdated. I want to 
issue new ones. And because of this I want to understand 62368-1.


Best regards
Piotr Galka
P.S.
Note out of EMC-PSTC subject but connected with standards...
Recently my heart has been hurting because while the whole world is 
trying to save energy, we have been forced to issue readers that have 40 
to 400 times more energy consumption for RS485 transmission than our 
previous ones. And to not be eliminated from market we seriously think 
about doing the same change in all our devices. Standards are not 
mandatory, but if they are issued than market forces to use them. When I 
imagine how many RS485 busses work all the time all over the world...




W dniu 2024-05-08 o 17:52, John Woodgate pisze:


To fully understand IEC 62368-1, you also need to read IEC 62368-2. It 
includes a long explanatory text about 5.4.11. The committee realised 
that it was not practicable to put all the explanations into the same 
document as the requirements. The circuits feeding the USB connectors 
of a device are internal circuits. But are you actually using USB or 
are you mentioning it as an example? For your access controller 
connected to a 12V supply that is permanently connected to mains, the 
isolated low-voltage circuits in the 12 V supply equipment are 
internal circuits and are not subject to transients. Anything 
connected to the 12 V DC supply is ES1.


On 2024-05-08 16:21, Piotr Galka wrote:

Hi Bostjan,

Thanks for your feedback, but...

I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time.
It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that 
is external to the equipment and is not mains".
I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an 
equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 
62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know 
what is equipment.
May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be 
assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, 
keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to 
connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered 
separately from mains connected to laptop is understood as being 
internal part of equipment? Laptop is probably manufactured by 
someone else than laser printer. They can't assume they manufacture 
single equipment, I think.
In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi 
antenna located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection 
length). Having all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 
62368-1 USB is equipment internal circuit.


Now.
If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and 
printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access 
control controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also 
one equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one 
building) making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit?

I don't think so.

And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access 
controller permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently 
connected to mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. 
Even 12V supply has isolation in it.
If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 
12V supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood 
equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if 
controller is manufactured by someone other then 12V supply.


Best regards
Piotr Galka

W dniu 2024-05-07 o 19:49, Boštjan Glavič pisze:

Hi Piotr

USB 

Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[Boštjan Glavič]

Hi Piotr

If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with 
transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 
62102 which clasify external circuits.

>From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as 
>external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external 
>circuit and PE are specified.

Did you also check 62368-2?

Best regards
Bostjan





Poslano iz Outlook za Android


Od: Piotr Galka 
Poslano: sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM
Za: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Zadeva: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

Hi Bostjan,

Thanks for your feedback, but...

I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time.
It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is
external to the equipment and is not mains".
I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an
equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1
but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is
equipment.
May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be
assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard)
can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other
equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains
connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment?
Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They
can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think.
In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna
located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having
all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is
equipment internal circuit.

Now.
If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and
printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control
controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one
equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building)
making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit?
I don't think so.

And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller
permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to
mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply
has isolation in it.
If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 12V
supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood
equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if
controller is manufactured by someone other then 12V supply.

Best regards
Piotr Galka

W dniu 2024-05-07 o 19:49, Boštjan Glavič pisze:
> Hi Piotr
>
> USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on USB. 
> Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output.
>
> Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old times 
> (analogue network, ISDN,...).
>
> I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me.
>
> Best regards,
> Boštjan
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Piotr Galka 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do not click 
> links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> Trying to understand 62368-1...
>
> I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not excluded 
> from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1.
> For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and
> 2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 'Any other 
> conductors').
> The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for external 
> circuits installed wholly within the same building is only about transients 
> so I think it doesn't make USB being not indicated in table.
> USB cable can be used to connect laptop to printer and in printer USB can be 
> earthed, I think.
> Dos this means that according to first sentence of 5.4.11.2 each USB port in 
> this laptop should be separated from its other USB ports?
> I don't believe there is such requirement.
>
> My real problem to understand is as follows:
> Typical access controller have several not separated from each other inputs 
> (several RFID reader inputs, door state control input, tamper inputs and 
> others).
> I need to understand if the access controller powered from (external to
> it) 12V DC buffered (= having accu in it) supply is permanently connected 
> equipment or not?
> To disconnect it from 12V supply you need tools, to disconnect 12V supply 
> from mains you need tools, but 12V supply has isolation in it so access 
> controller is not electrically connected to mains and 3.3.3.4 says about 
> needing tools to disconnect from mains (if 

Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[John Woodgate]

To fully understand IEC 62368-1, you also need to read IEC 62368-2. It 
includes a long explanatory text about 5.4.11. The committee realised 
that it was not practicable to put all the explanations into the same 
document as the requirements. The circuits feeding the USB connectors of 
a device are internal circuits. But are you actually using USB or are 
you mentioning it as an example? For your access controller connected to 
a 12V supply that is permanently connected to mains, the isolated 
low-voltage circuits in the 12 V supply equipment are internal circuits 
and are not subject to transients. Anything connected to the 12 V DC 
supply is ES1.


On 2024-05-08 16:21, Piotr Galka wrote:

Hi Bostjan,

Thanks for your feedback, but...

I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time.
It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that 
is external to the equipment and is not mains".
I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an 
equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 
62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know 
what is equipment.
May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be 
assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, 
keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to 
connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered 
separately from mains connected to laptop is understood as being 
internal part of equipment? Laptop is probably manufactured by someone 
else than laser printer. They can't assume they manufacture single 
equipment, I think.
In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi 
antenna located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection 
length). Having all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 
62368-1 USB is equipment internal circuit.


Now.
If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and 
printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control 
controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one 
equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one 
building) making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit?

I don't think so.

And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access 
controller permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently 
connected to mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. 
Even 12V supply has isolation in it.
If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 
12V supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood 
equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if 
controller is manufactured by someone other then 12V supply.


Best regards
Piotr Galka

W dniu 2024-05-07 o 19:49, Boštjan Glavič pisze:

Hi Piotr

USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on 
USB. Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output.


Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old 
times (analogue network, ISDN,...).


I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me.

Best regards,
Boštjan



-Original Message-
From: Piotr Galka 
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do 
not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender 
and know the content is safe.



Trying to understand 62368-1...

I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not 
excluded from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1.

For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and
2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 
'Any other conductors').
The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for 
external circuits installed wholly within the same building is only 
about transients so I think it doesn't make USB being not indicated 
in table.
USB cable can be used to connect laptop to printer and in printer USB 
can be earthed, I think.
Dos this means that according to first sentence of 5.4.11.2 each USB 
port in this laptop should be separated from its other USB ports?

I don't believe there is such requirement.

My real problem to understand is as follows:
Typical access controller have several not separated from each other 
inputs (several RFID reader inputs, door state control input, tamper 
inputs and others).

I need to understand if the access controller powered from (external to
it) 12V DC buffered (= having accu in it) supply is permanently 
connected equipment or not?
To disconnect it from 12V supply you need tools, to disconnect 12V 
supply from mains you need tools, but 12V supply has isolation in it 
so access controller is not electrically connected to mains and 
3.3.3.4 says about needing tools to disconnect from mains (if 
something is not connected than tools are 

Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[Piotr Galka]

Hi Bostjan,

Thanks for your feedback, but...

I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time.
It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is 
external to the equipment and is not mains".
I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an 
equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 
but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is 
equipment.
May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be 
assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) 
can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other 
equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains 
connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? 
Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They 
can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think.
In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna 
located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having 
all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is 
equipment internal circuit.


Now.
If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and 
printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control 
controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one 
equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building) 
making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit?

I don't think so.

And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller 
permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to 
mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply 
has isolation in it.
If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 12V 
supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood 
equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if 
controller is manufactured by someone other then 12V supply.


Best regards
Piotr Galka

W dniu 2024-05-07 o 19:49, Boštjan Glavič pisze:

Hi Piotr

USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on USB. 
Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output.

Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old times 
(analogue network, ISDN,...).

I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me.

Best regards,
Boštjan



-Original Message-
From: Piotr Galka 
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content 
is safe.


Trying to understand 62368-1...

I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not excluded from 
5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1.
For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and
2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 'Any other 
conductors').
The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for external 
circuits installed wholly within the same building is only about transients so 
I think it doesn't make USB being not indicated in table.
USB cable can be used to connect laptop to printer and in printer USB can be 
earthed, I think.
Dos this means that according to first sentence of 5.4.11.2 each USB port in 
this laptop should be separated from its other USB ports?
I don't believe there is such requirement.

My real problem to understand is as follows:
Typical access controller have several not separated from each other inputs 
(several RFID reader inputs, door state control input, tamper inputs and 
others).
I need to understand if the access controller powered from (external to
it) 12V DC buffered (= having accu in it) supply is permanently connected 
equipment or not?
To disconnect it from 12V supply you need tools, to disconnect 12V supply from 
mains you need tools, but 12V supply has isolation in it so access controller 
is not electrically connected to mains and 3.3.3.4 says about needing tools to 
disconnect from mains (if something is not connected than tools are not needed 
to make it being disconnected, I think).
Being permanently connected equipment is the easiest way for controller to be 
excluded from 5.4.11.
But if it is not permanently connected than its inputs are in the same 
situation as laptop USB ports I described first as more common to everyone.

What I miss or wrongly understand?

Regards
Piotr Galka

P.S.
Last month free time I spend browsing about 2800 EMC-PSTC posts collected by my 
mail program for few years.

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Re: [PSES] UK The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024

[Lauren Crane]

Thanks for sharing this, Charlie.

Best Regards,
-Lauren

From: Charlie Blackham 
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2024 3:09 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] UK The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) 
Regulations 2024



External Email: Do NOT reply, click on links, or open attachments unless you 
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UK has published draft legislation to allow continued acceptance of CE Marking 
past the end of 2024 in the "The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) 
Regulations 2024" along with an explanatory memorandum.
The law is due to come into force on 1st October ahead of the current 31 
December deadline.

The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024 
(legislation.gov.uk)

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Mead House
Longwater Road
Eversley
RG27 0NW
UK
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Email: char...@sulisconsultants.com
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247



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