RE: 60601-1 leakage current testers
Try Ergonomics, Inc for the leakage current meters. Their number is 215 357 5124 and the WEB site is www.ergonomicsusa.com Dave George -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Brian McAuliffe Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:48 AM To: Emc-Pstc Post Subject: 60601-1 leakage current testers any recommendations for sources of hire (preferrably in UK/Ireland) and/or purchase of test equipment suitable for performing the leakage current tests specified in EN60601-1:1990 ? thanks Brian McAuliffe MCA Compliance Solutions Ltd w: www.mcac.ie e: i...@mcac.ie t: +353 (0)65 6823452 m: +353 (0)87 2352554 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: CE (LVD) for Fruit Juicers
Hi Robert This type of product would be covered by EN 60335-2-14, Particular requirements for kitchen machines. The scope includes citrus fruit squeezers and centrifugal juicers. Technically, the machinery Directive does apply since it meets the definition of a machine, assuming that it is not excluded by article 1(5), that is a risk assessment shows that the risks are not mainly of electrical origin. However in the UK, I do remember a DTI document which was issued soon after the MD was released that said that products which have traditionally fallen within the scope of the LVD in the past may continue to do so. I don't know if this advice has been superceded or forgotten or whether it still applies since domestic electrical appliances within the scope of EN 60335 have traditionally been in the scope of the LVD. In practical terms, the main difference in the application of the LVD and MD is the requirements for the technical file. EN 60335-1 states (Introduction) that the essential requirements of the LVD, MD and CPD are covered by the standard (Noise and vibration???) This and more information can be found in the European Commission DGIII Guidelines on the application of council Directive 73/23/EEC. I hope this helps. Best regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +44 121 634 8000 Fax: +44 121 634 8080 Hi Group, Looking through the OJEC LVD Standards list, I could not find under EN 60335 and its many parts a particular part that covered a juicer. Does anyone know which particular part of this standard this product falls under? Also, not having seen this device, if it has blades like a blender, will the Machinery Directive also be applicable? Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Sincerely, Robert R. Loop Engineering Supervisor - Product Safety ph: (256) 837-4411 x313 fax:(256) 721-0144 email: rl...@hnt.wylelabs.com This email transmission is confidential and intended for the addressee only. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the person or organization to whom it is addressed, you must not copy, distribute, or take any action in reliance upon it. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: EMC and LV Directives online
Links to the European Commission's website have already been posted but FYI the UK Government has produced some documents called Product Standards ... which are supposed to be a rewrite of the UK regulations in plainer English. The technical parts of the National Regulations are identical (or at least they should be) to the Directives, but also include additional information in such areas as enforcement etc. in that Country which are not in the Directive. These documents can be downloaded from: http://www.dti.gov.uk/strd/strdpubs.htm#emc Best regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK TÜV Rheinland/Berlin-Brandenburg Group Ltd 24 Bennetts Hill Birmingham B2 5QP United Kingdom Tel: +44-121-634-8000 Fax: +44-121-634-8080 Web: www.uk.tuv.com Greetings EMC/Product Safety Gurus! Does anyone know if the EMC Directive and Low Voltage Directive texts are available online? Thanks! Randy Flinders Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineer Emulex Corporation - We Network Storage 3535 Harbor Blvd. Costa Mesa, Ca. 92626 Direct: (714) 513-8012 Fax: (714) 513-8265 Email: randall.flind...@emulex.com mailto:randall.flind...@emulex.com Web: http://www.emulex.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Safety of microwave ovens
Ravinder The IEC standard for microwave ovens is IEC 60335-2-25, this allows a maximum leakage of 50W/m2 at 50mm or more from the external surface of the microwave oven. I tested a few of these a few years ago and found levels well below the above limit even at closer than 50mm. I am sure that the models I tested will have been superceded a long time ago, this cannot be applied to any specific samples available now. The manufacturers may be able to give you some idea of measurements. Best regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +44 121 634 8000 Fax: +44 121 634 8080 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: China authority for Radio equipment
Darren Please look at www.int-app.tuv.com. Best regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +44 121 634 8000 Fax: +44 121 634 8080 Hi every one, I am currently trying to get a radio device approved in China, Can any one tell me who the authority is in China, or help with a contact e mail, Fax or Phone No ? Thanks Darren. Darren Pearson --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: stability
I no longer have a copy of the 5th edition but from your email, I suggest that the equipment must be both floor standing and have a mass exceeding 20kg. Why do you reference the 5th edition, this has long been superceded by the 6th edition and the 7th edition has also just been released. Best regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +44 121 634 8000 Fax: +44 121 634 8080 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CE-mark compliance
John We often come across large systems or machines where we ask the manufacturer for certification details for the components, they sometimes are unable to get much information from their suppliers, a common example is for transformers where it is unlikely that they have been tested, except as an end of line production test and are only supplied with a DOC. We do not accept these but are always asked. I am sorry to hear that you are leaving this forum. My feeling is that your input was extremely useful and it will be missed (where do you get the time to do the research, or is it all in your head). It is particularly useful to have somebody on standards committees to show us all how it works. Regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +44 121 634 8000 Fax: +44 121 634 8080 I read in !emc-pstc that i...@uk.tuv.com wrote (in OF47447D6C.F0A6BF4C- on80256b05.00425...@jpn.tuv.com) about 'CE-mark compliance', on Thu, 15 Nov 2001: Test houses generally do not accept a Declaration of Conformity for any product unless further proof is available in the form of acceptable test results (from a 3rd party laboratory or approved in-house laboratory). There is normally no reason for a test house to be asked to 'accept' a DOC, unless the manufacturer commissions it to use the DOC to support a claim of conformity to some other requirements, such as Australian. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CE-mark compliance
Look in the archives of this discussion forum and you will see instances of occassions where no testing has been conducted. Test houses generally do not accept a Declaration of Conformity for any product unless further proof is available in the form of acceptable test results (from a 3rd party laboratory or approved in-house laboratory). This is not because they want more testing and more money but because it is well known that the CE marking process is abused by a large number of companies to different degrees. It is not uncommon for products to have a CE label attached but no documentation at all and these products are frequently found to be unsafe or to not comply with the EMC Directive. Some companies do the minimum possible i.e. make a quick assessment (not necessarily by a knowledgable person) and write a Declaration of conformity, other companies will do more in house testing, for example, hi-pot, leakage current and earth bond. Some companies employ safety engineers to perform testing and others use external test houses. For EMC it is more likely that nothing has been done as a large number of companies know that they will only get caught if their equipment is causing serious interference. There is a sliding scale of testing that companies do, at one end nothing is done, costs are low and risks are high, at the other end full third party testing is conducted therefore costs are high but risks are low. It is up to buyers to decide where they want their end product to lie on that scale and to buy from companies that are at a similar position or better. They should request documentation to ensure that the equipment is suitably assessed to that level of risk. Some years ago before most of us knew what EMC meant, I came across a company that did not employ a safety engineer and did not use a test lab at all since it was cheaper to employ a lawyer with the knowledge to get them off any charges if their equipment was found to be unsafe! My advice, decide on your level of risk and choose your suppliers carefully. Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +44 121 634 8000 Fax: +44 121 634 8080 Hi all, Do all manufactures fulfill the EU-directives with testing in their own facilities or by an independent test lab? I guess the answer must be No. From my time working in a test lab, my experience is that big companies like Alcatel, Siemens and so on, do the required testing according to relevant requirements. I also got the feeling that small companies (I do not generalize) where a bit laid-back and often put the CE-mark into the products without any tests or with a very limited test process. Should a system builder trust a Declaration of Conformity from a big manufacturer, without asking for test reports in order to verify compliance with relevant directives ? Would you sleep well at night, if you only trusted the CE-mark 100% and build a large broadband telecom system only based on the CE-mark without any further documentation? What is your opinion? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Power Plugs
Legally the regulations refer to appliances intended for domestic use. See
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1994/Uksi_19941768_en_1.htm Section 11(1)(d).
It is not uncommon for any equipment intended for connection to a domestic
power supply to have a plug fitted even if it is for professional use.
Best regards
Glenn Moffat
TUV International UK
Tel: +44 121 634 8000
Fax: +44 121 634 8080
I read in !emc-pstc that Nick Williams nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk
wrote (in v04220800b7e065df1d3d@[192.168.1.6]) about 'Power Plugs', on
Wed, 3 Oct 2001:
If you mean the end user,
then if you can make a watertight case that the product is only for
professional use you are legally allowed to do this although in
practice it will be frowned upon.
If you have any evidence of this, please tell me, because the DTI have
given assurances that it ('frowning') is not the case: professional
products don't need plugs.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Eat mink and be dreary!
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Re: Applying the appropriate ENs
You do not make it clear as to what Directive you are referring to. I can respond regarding safety and the LVD. The requirements under the LVD are that equipment must be safe and complying with the principle elements of the safety objectives of Annex I and that they should be constructed in accordance with good engineering practise. If the product complies with the safety provisions of harmonized standards (listed in the OJ) then in general it shall be considered to be safe. The Directive does not say that products not complying with standards are unsafe, and it does not directly specify which standard should be used for a particular product (this is only obtained from the scope of the standard in the OJ). Therefore you can apply any requirements you like including those of a 'non-appropriate' standard as long as the product is safe in the situation that it being used. If you use an inappropriate standard and the product is found to be unsafe, you will be liable! - particularly if using the appropriate sandard would have made the product safe. Using the example below the options are: Retest to the appropriate standard for audio/video (Much of the testing will already be covered by the testing to the primary use standard), then list the new standard on the DOC. Make the judgement that there are no additional hazards associated with the secondary use and that compliance with the standard already used is sufficient, do not list the new standard as it has not been used. If your product is certified with an agency and the secondary use will also require certification, I expect there will be no choice but to use the new standard I hope this helps. Best regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +121 634 8000 Fax: +121 634 8080 Assume a product is primarily intended for a particular use (example: CCTV for surveillance use) and the appropriate ENs are applied for that intended use and a Declaration of Conformity is issued listing the applied standard. Now assume that the product is marketed and sold for a secondary intended use (example: professional audio/video) where the same essential requirements apply but other ENs exist for that application. Is it legally required to also apply the other ENs and list them on the Declaration? --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Request for a Compliance Matrix
Our International Approvals website may be of help, look at www.int-app.tuv.com Regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +121 634 8000 Fax: +121 634 8080 Thank you John, that NEMKO link is very helpful. On the Safety side, this link (http://www.cbscheme.org/cbscheme/cbcntris.htm) should help with countries participating in the CB Scheme. Does anyone know of something similar for EMC? Any other Agencies out there with similar Compliance Matrixes? Best regards, Dave -Original Message- From: Allen, John [mailto:john.al...@uk.thalesgroup.com] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 2:21 AM To:'wo...@sensormatic.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: Request for a Compliance Matrix Hi Folks I have just come across a very useful page on the NEMKO UK Ltd site, at: http://www.nemko.ltd.uk/cert/direct.htm The site is essentially advertising for NEMKO services but has tables which give thumbnail sketches of the requirements for electrical and electronic equipment approvals (including the namesof the organisations and illustrations of their approval marks), including EMC but not RTTE, in the following countries: Central East Europe: Poland, Czech Republic,Slovak Republic, Hungary,Slovenia, Croatia Yugoslavia, Macedonia, Albania Romania,Bulgaria , Turkey Russia, CIS and Baltic States: Russia Ukraine Belarus Lithuania Estonia Latvia Kazakhstan South America: Argentina MexicoBrazil ColombiaChile Middle East, Africa, Asia: Saudi Arabia Israel South Africa India Hong KongAustralia Japan Korea China (2 versions?) Singapore Thailand Malaysia Regards John Allen Thales Defence Ltd., Bracknell, UK -Original Message- From: wo...@sensormatic.com [mailto:wo...@sensormatic.com] Sent: 19 September 2001 20:43 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Request for a Compliance Matrix I generated and posted this document in 1999 and some parts are now out of date. I will update and re-post it with any corrections, updates and additions that anyone cares to send to me. Richard Woods -- From: Dave Lorusso [SMTP:dave.loru...@genband.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 2:59 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: FW: Request for a Compliance Matrix Thank you for the responses. Dwight sent me a copy (attached). Anyone one have a more up to date list? Best regards, Dave -Original Message- From: Dwight Hunnicutt [mailto:dwight.hunnic...@vina-tech.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:36 PM To: 'Dave Lorusso' Subject: RE: Request for a Compliance Matrix worldwide compliance chart.pdf Dave- Was this it? Not too up to date, but this I what I have... Dwight -Original Message- From: Dave Lorusso [mailto:dave.loru...@genband.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 9:51 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Request for a Compliance Matrix Awhile back I remember seeing a post that included a Compliance Matrix listing countries vs. EMC/Safety/Telecom requirements. If someone has this matrix, would you please send me a copy - I'd really appreciate it. Normally, I would use the search feature on www.cfont.com http://www.cfont.com , for this information, but it's no longer there. Thank you and best regards, Dave --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. File: worldwide compliance chart.pdf --- This message is from the IEEE EMC
Re: Low voltage exclusions for railways
Dear Nick I once asked the LVD section of the Department of Trade and Industry (Current contact - Chris Parish) this question, and the reply was that the Shipping, aircraft and rail industries have their own (international?) requirements and compliance should be against these requirements, they could not tell me what the requirements were. You can read this statement in two ways - one is that the above requirements must apply. The other: The wording states '...which complies with...', therefore my question is, if the equipment does not comply with those safety provisions can the LVD be used? My assumption is NO. I suggest talk to someone in the Rail industry. Best regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK TUV Rheinland/Berlin-Brandenburg Group Ltd. Tel: +44 121 634 8000 Fax: +44 121 634 8080 www.uk.tuv.com The LVD contains the following exclusion: Specialised electrical equipment for use on ships, aircraft or railways, which complies with the safety provisions drawn up by international bodies in which the member States participate. Specifically with reference to railways, does anyone know what what this actually means in practice? Regards Nick. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Manufacturing Hipot Testing
Just a viewpoint from one of those commercial test houses. In Europe the requirements of the Low Voltage Directive are that a product must be safe, be constructed in accordance with good engineering practice and comply with the principal elements of the safety objectives detailed. It does not say that a product must conform to any standard, it does however say that a product complying with a harmonised standard will be deemed to comply with the safety provisions of the Directive. Therefore the law in Europe has no requirements for any production line hipot or other testing provided you can show evidence that you have done all that is necessary to show the product is safe. Under the legal requirements it is possible to deviate from any production line testing detailed in the standards whether it is in an informative or normative or any other type of Annex. In practise it is difficult to imagine any way of ensuring an electrical product is safe without some form of end of line testing. Many test houses operate certification schemes which give additional confidence to buyers that a product is safe (or whatever other thing the marks are perceived to show by the buyer). Most test marks are private marks belonging to a company, there is one exception and that is the German GS mark. This is a Government mark and forms part of the German Safety Law, it is not (and never has been) Mandatory, the mark is issued by the TUVs and their appropriate logo will appear alongside the GS mark. This mark is well established in Germany and other parts of Europe. Regarding other issues brought up on this subject, by choosing a test house carefully, it should be possible to obtain virtually all international certification necessary through one body, possibly by using the CB scheme (which is not a true certification scheme). This has cost and time benefits and should simplify the process. I expect I have just told you all what you already know, but I hope it helps. Best regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK TUV Rheinland/Berlin-Brandenburg Group Ltd www.uk.tuv.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
