Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

[John Woodgate]

RE: finding the temperature at which the 2.0 mm dimple forms.
 
I suspect that was abandoned because it's almost impossible to do in practice. 
In any case, it's not what you want to know for safety purposes. You want to 
know what the current test tells you; is the material overly soft at 125 C.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 10:07 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts
 
Kristiaan –
 
Most of the responses agree with my understanding.
 
I will add that my recollection of the origins of the test in 60950 was related 
to electrical connections under compressive loading where the compression is 
needed to establish and ensure an electrical connection. Some custom made 
terminal blocks were made using inexpensive materials, including polyamide 
without inorganic fillers (like glass). As time moved on, the application of 
the testing expanded to cover other design features.
 
http://www.ulttc.com/en/solutions/test-methods/physical/ball-pressure-test.html
 
It appears the testing was simplified to a single temperature with the 
pass/fail criterion simply being the 2.0 mm diameter dimple, rather than 
finding the temperature at which the 2.0 mm dimple forms.
 
Maybe Pete Perkins or Rich Knute recall further back than I do.
 
 
Peter Tarver
 
From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:kristiaan.carpent...@technicolor.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 05:58
 
Hi group,
 
Does any-one know the reason/background of the ball pressure test of 
thermoplastic parts (IEC60950-1, clause 4.5.5) and the chosen temperature of 
125C.
This test is performed - for example – on the plastic parts of a direct plug-in 
power supply as these parts “carry” the mains power supply pins. I can’t 
imagine a situation there that requires such a test and certainly not at 125C.  
Thanks for your feedback!
 
Best regards
Kris Carpentier
-
 
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Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

[Peter Tarver]

Kristiaan –

Most of the responses agree with my understanding.

I will add that my recollection of the origins of the test in 60950 was related 
to electrical connections under compressive loading where the compression is 
needed to establish and ensure an electrical connection. Some custom made 
terminal blocks were made using inexpensive materials, including polyamide 
without inorganic fillers (like glass). As time moved on, the application of 
the testing expanded to cover other design features.

http://www.ulttc.com/en/solutions/test-methods/physical/ball-pressure-test.html

It appears the testing was simplified to a single temperature with the 
pass/fail criterion simply being the 2.0 mm diameter dimple, rather than 
finding the temperature at which the 2.0 mm dimple forms.

Maybe Pete Perkins or Rich Knute recall further back than I do.


Peter Tarver

From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:kristiaan.carpent...@technicolor.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 05:58

Hi group,

Does any-one know the reason/background of the ball pressure test of 
thermoplastic parts (IEC60950-1, clause 4.5.5) and the chosen temperature of 
125C.
This test is performed - for example – on the plastic parts of a direct plug-in 
power supply as these parts “carry” the mains power supply pins. I can’t 
imagine a situation there that requires such a test and certainly not at 125C.
Thanks for your feedback!

Best regards
Kris Carpentier
-

The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. 
It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is 
addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the 
intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in 
any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, 
please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this 
message!

-

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Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

[Carpentier Kristiaan]

Thanks all for the better insight given!

Best regards
Kris Carpentier,

From: John Allen [mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com]
Sent: woensdag 24 augustus 2016 22:25
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts


My interpretation of the rationale is from my 60335 experience.  The idea is 
the same as Mold Stress testing.  When molded, Polymeric materials have stress 
lines/points in them.  The temperature exposure relieves these stresses which 
can move the material.  The temperature is higher for polymeric parts 
supporting live parts vs an enclosure.  We're looking for reduction of 
spacings, openings that allow the finger probe, etc.  Following is from 
IEC60335-1, 4th Edition





30.1 External parts of non-metallic material, parts of insulating material 
supporting LIVE PARTS including
connections, and parts of thermoplastic material providing SUPPLEMENTARY 
INSULATION or REINFORCED INSULATION,
shall be sufficiently resistant to heat if their deterioration could cause the 
appliance to fail to comply with
this standard.
This requirement does not apply to the insulation or sheath of flexible cords 
or internal wiring.
Compliance is checked by subjecting the relevant part to the ball-pressure test 
of IEC 60695-10-2.
The test is carried out at a temperature of 40°C ± 2°C plus the maximum 
temperature rise determined
during the test of clause 11, but it shall be at least:
- 75 °C ± 2°C, for external parts
- 125 °C ± 2°C, for parts supporting LIVE PARTS.
However, for parts of thermoplastic material providing SUPPLEMENTARY INSULATION 
or REINFORCED INSULATION, the
test is carried out at a temperature of 25°C ± 2°C plus the maximum temperature 
rise determined during
the tests of clause 19, if this is higher. The temperature rises of 19.4 are 
not taken into account provided
that the test is terminated by the operation of a NON-SELF-RESETTING PROTECTIVE 
DEVICE and it is necessary to
remove a cover or use a TOOL to reset it.








John Allen | President | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

Your Outsourced Compliance Department®

http://www.productsafetyinc.com

630-238-0188



Visit us at the D2P Show in Marlborough, MA.

Booth 537 Sept 28th & 29th





From: Covell, Richard <rick.cov...@vde.com<mailto:rick.cov...@vde.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 3:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts


Kris-

The answers that others have provided are generally on point.

The methodology for performing this test emanates from 60695-10-2. The IECEE, 
CTL has issued a decision sheet (DSH 391C) after feedback on proficiency 
testing some years back.

You might find it an interesting read.

 http://decisions.iecee.org/iecee/SearchCMC.nsf/de_h.xsp?v=ctl

Due to the layout of the site you'll have to enter in the decision sheet # in 
the Ref. Number area.



Best Regards

Rick Covell











From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:kristiaan.carpent...@technicolor.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 8:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts



Hi group,



Does any-one know the reason/background of the ball pressure test of 
thermoplastic parts (IEC60950-1, clause 4.5.5) and the chosen temperature of 
125C.

This test is performed - for example - on the plastic parts of a direct plug-in 
power supply as these parts "carry" the mains power supply pins. I can't 
imagine a situation there that requires such a test and certainly not at 125C.

Thanks for your feedback!



Best regards

Kris Carpentier

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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-


This message is from the IEEE 

Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

[John Allen]

My interpretation of the rationale is from my 60335 experience.  The idea is 
the same as Mold Stress testing.  When molded, Polymeric materials have stress 
lines/points in them.  The temperature exposure relieves these stresses which 
can move the material.  The temperature is higher for polymeric parts 
supporting live parts vs an enclosure.  We're looking for reduction of 
spacings, openings that allow the finger probe, etc.  Following is from 
IEC60335-1, 4th Edition



30.1 External parts of non-metallic material, parts of insulating material 
supporting LIVE PARTS including

connections, and parts of thermoplastic material providing SUPPLEMENTARY 
INSULATION or REINFORCED INSULATION,
shall be sufficiently resistant to heat if their deterioration could cause the 
appliance to fail to comply with
this standard.
This requirement does not apply to the insulation or sheath of flexible cords 
or internal wiring.
Compliance is checked by subjecting the relevant part to the ball-pressure test 
of IEC 60695-10-2.
The test is carried out at a temperature of 40°C ± 2°C plus the maximum 
temperature rise determined
during the test of clause 11, but it shall be at least:
– 75 °C ± 2°C, for external parts
– 125 °C ± 2°C, for parts supporting LIVE PARTS.
However, for parts of thermoplastic material providing SUPPLEMENTARY INSULATION 
or REINFORCED INSULATION, the
test is carried out at a temperature of 25°C ± 2°C plus the maximum temperature 
rise determined during
the tests of clause 19, if this is higher. The temperature rises of 19.4 are 
not taken into account provided
that the test is terminated by the operation of a NON-SELF-RESETTING PROTECTIVE 
DEVICE and it is necessary to
remove a cover or use a TOOL to reset it.





John Allen | President | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

Your Outsourced Compliance Department®

http://www.productsafetyinc.com

630-238-0188


Visit us at the D2P Show in Marlborough, MA.

Booth 537 Sept 28th & 29th




From: Covell, Richard <rick.cov...@vde.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 3:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts


Kris-

The answers that others have provided are generally on point.

The methodology for performing this test emanates from 60695-10-2. The IECEE, 
CTL has issued a decision sheet (DSH 391C) after feedback on proficiency 
testing some years back.

You might find it an interesting read.

 http://decisions.iecee.org/iecee/SearchCMC.nsf/de_h.xsp?v=ctl

Due to the layout of the site you’ll have to enter in the decision sheet # in 
the Ref. Number area.



Best Regards

Rick Covell











From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:kristiaan.carpent...@technicolor.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 8:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts



Hi group,



Does any-one know the reason/background of the ball pressure test of 
thermoplastic parts (IEC60950-1, clause 4.5.5) and the chosen temperature of 
125C.

This test is performed - for example – on the plastic parts of a direct plug-in 
power supply as these parts “carry” the mains power supply pins. I can’t 
imagine a situation there that requires such a test and certainly not at 125C.

Thanks for your feedback!



Best regards

Kris Carpentier

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee

Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

[Covell, Richard]

Kris-
The answers that others have provided are generally on point.
The methodology for performing this test emanates from 60695-10-2. The IECEE, 
CTL has issued a decision sheet (DSH 391C) after feedback on proficiency 
testing some years back.
You might find it an interesting read.
 http://decisions.iecee.org/iecee/SearchCMC.nsf/de_h.xsp?v=ctl
Due to the layout of the site you’ll have to enter in the decision sheet # in 
the Ref. Number area.

Best Regards
Rick Covell





From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:kristiaan.carpent...@technicolor.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 8:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

Hi group,

Does any-one know the reason/background of the ball pressure test of 
thermoplastic parts (IEC60950-1, clause 4.5.5) and the chosen temperature of 
125C.
This test is performed - for example – on the plastic parts of a direct plug-in 
power supply as these parts “carry” the mains power supply pins. I can’t 
imagine a situation there that requires such a test and certainly not at 125C.
Thanks for your feedback!

Best regards
Kris Carpentier
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

[Doug Powell]

  I am not entirely certain but one of the concerns is the ability of plastics to "cold flow". The temperature threshold is to determine at what point the magnitude of the migration is too much. This is the reason for measuring the 2mm diameter of the indentation at the ridge that is formed around the ball. A classic case is Teflon wire insulation. ‎I don't know how many times a design engineer has told me they found this 1000V type EE wire (MIL-STD), only to learn that the UL rating is just 300V, if any at all.  MIL-STD does not take into consideration cold flow as UL does.  This is why UL style 1180 (equiv. Type EE) has a minimum wall thickness of 12 mils for 300V. UL style 1213 (Type E, 600V) has no voltage rating at all.  Best, DougDouglas E Powelldoug...@gmail.com‎https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 ‎ From: John WoodgateSent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 9:49 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: John WoodgateSubject: Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic partsI agree: I believe that is the reason for the test. I'm not sure that switch-mode wall warts can't get very hot under fault conditions. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Onlywww.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 4:16 PMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts I assumed it had something to do with the old Wall Warts that was basically a transformer. In an overload condition, these transformers can reach temperatures exceeding 100ºC. You don’t want the plastic case to soften, warp, or open up and expose hazardous voltages, or worst. The Other Brian From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:kristiaan.carpent...@technicolor.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 8:58 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts Hi group, Does any-one know the reason/background of the ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts (IEC60950-1, clause 4.5.5) and the chosen temperature of 125C.This test is performed - for example – on the plastic parts of a direct plug-in power supply as these parts “carry” the mains power supply pins. I can’t imagine a situation there that requires such a test and certainly not at 125C.  Thanks for your feedback! Best regardsKris Carpentier-This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.htmlAttachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. -This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.htmlAttachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, s

Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

[John Woodgate]

I agree: I believe that is the reason for the test. I'm not sure that 
switch-mode wall warts can't get very hot under fault conditions.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 4:16 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts
 
I assumed it had something to do with the old Wall Warts that was basically a 
transformer. In an overload condition, these transformers can reach 
temperatures exceeding 100ºC. You don’t want the plastic case to soften, warp, 
or open up and expose hazardous voltages, or worst. 
The Other Brian
 
From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:kristiaan.carpent...@technicolor.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 8:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts
 
Hi group,
 
Does any-one know the reason/background of the ball pressure test of 
thermoplastic parts (IEC60950-1, clause 4.5.5) and the chosen temperature of 
125C.
This test is performed - for example – on the plastic parts of a direct plug-in 
power supply as these parts “carry” the mains power supply pins. I can’t 
imagine a situation there that requires such a test and certainly not at 125C.  
Thanks for your feedback!
 
Best regards
Kris Carpentier
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Re: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

[Kunde, Brian]

I assumed it had something to do with the old Wall Warts that was basically a 
transformer. In an overload condition, these transformers can reach 
temperatures exceeding 100ºC. You don’t want the plastic case to soften, warp, 
or open up and expose hazardous voltages, or worst.
The Other Brian

From: Carpentier Kristiaan [mailto:kristiaan.carpent...@technicolor.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 8:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

Hi group,

Does any-one know the reason/background of the ball pressure test of 
thermoplastic parts (IEC60950-1, clause 4.5.5) and the chosen temperature of 
125C.
This test is performed - for example – on the plastic parts of a direct plug-in 
power supply as these parts “carry” the mains power supply pins. I can’t 
imagine a situation there that requires such a test and certainly not at 125C.
Thanks for your feedback!

Best regards
Kris Carpentier
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[PSES] Ball pressure test of thermoplastic parts

[Carpentier Kristiaan]

Hi group,

Does any-one know the reason/background of the ball pressure test of 
thermoplastic parts (IEC60950-1, clause 4.5.5) and the chosen temperature of 
125C.
This test is performed - for example – on the plastic parts of a direct plug-in 
power supply as these parts “carry” the mains power supply pins. I can’t 
imagine a situation there that requires such a test and certainly not at 125C.
Thanks for your feedback!

Best regards
Kris Carpentier

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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