Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams
Having worked in many US standards development organisations (SDOs) I would tend to describe their attitude as parochial. This is partly because the working groups are mainly made up of US people who have not been exposed to the international scene. On the face of it the 315/315A must be trustworthy as it is also ANSI Y32.2, CSA Z99 and references the IEC! I wonder if the IEEE Standards Coordinating Committee 11, Graphic Symbols, which created 315/315A, is even still functioning - it certainly hasn't filed a mandatory Polices and Procedures document at the IEEE AudCom site. I regard 315/315A as of historical interest to show where we started out from and not where we are today. As to your second question, yes you can get IEC 60617 compliant AutoCAD libraries. I have previously used AutoCAD, but it is expensive software with a steep learning curve. I think you have to use it extensively to justify the investment. It would be nice to find a lower cost drawing package with a correctly drawn symbol set. I can remember being disappointed with the Visio offering. Even at the fundamental level it was wrong with the resistor symbol rectangle having a side 2.5:1 ratio instead of the IEC 60617 ratio of 3.0:1. Regards Mick On 17/01/2015 22:57, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote: Mick, Care to guess why NFPA 79 2015 (not to mention ANSI Y14) still refers to the older IEEE standard while at the same time tries to harmonize with EN 60204-1 (Requirements align with IEC 60204-1)? Perhaps a not invented here syndrome? Although IEEE USA. Sounds like I should not bother with the IEEE standards. Interestingly my next question (not necessarily to PSES) was/is if there are (correct) IEC 60617 symbol libraries for AutoCAD. That would perhaps eliminate the need for the subscription since that's primarily what we need the symbols for anyway. Thanks -Dave -Original Message- From: Mick Maytum [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 5:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Cc: Nyffenegger, Dave Subject: Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams David, I am familiar with IEEE Std 315, IEEE Std 315A (supplement) and the IEC 60617 database. The 315 was created in 1975 and the 315A in 1986. These documents show some symbols with an over and under lined IEC label. At the time of creation the IEC reference was to the symbols in IEC publication 117. At the beginning of the 1980s IEC Publication 117: Recommended graphical symbols was replaced by Publication 617. Another ten years on and Publication 617 was replaced by IEC 60617. Many of the 315 and 315A document symbols no longer match what is in the current IEC 60617 database. For example the IEEE Std shows two IEC options for a resistor; a zig-zag line or a rectangle. Look in IEC 60617 and you find the zig zag resistor symbol (ref. S01355) was made obsolete in 1996-06 being replaced by the rectangle symbol (ref. S00555). There are many other symbol instances where the 315/315A are out of date compared to IEC 60617. The frustration with both the IEEE and IEC documents is that all the symbols are bit maps meaning you have to create your own vector versions or buy vector versions elsewhere. A years subscription to the IEC 60617 is expensive if you just want to check what is available. An alternative is to Google commercial libraries for CAD software as these will often have thumbnails of the symbols available. Just because a well-known vendor offers a set of IEC 60617 symbols doesn't mean they are drawn correctly either. The Autodesk Knowledge network does give you (fuzzy) previews of various symbol sets. You could have a stab in the dark and Google something like IEC60617 Symbols.pdf in the hope of getting a PDF file listing the symbols. Regards Mick On 13/01/2015 19:06, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote: Hi folks, Anyone familiar with in IEC 60617-DB:2001 and IEEE 315/315A? Perhaps the older IEEE standards are just a subset of the newer IEC standard? -Dave -Original Message- From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015 12:05 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams Hi Folks, EN 60204-1 section 17.6 says Any graphical symbol not shown in IEC 60617-DB:2001 shall be separately shown and described on the diagrams or supporting documents. NFPA 79 is harmonizing to EN 60204 and 17.7.1 has similar language but refers to IEEE 315/315A. I don't have either symbol standard yet and IEC 60717 is only available by subscription to online dB. The IEEE standards have been around for quite a while. I'm wondering how similar the symbols are between IEC 60617 and IEEE 315, anybody know? I can buy a copy of IEEE 315 for a reasonable price and I'm wondering if there is any additional need for the IEC 60617. One would hope that a common set
Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams
In message 54bba7c3.3040...@gmail.com, dated Sun, 18 Jan 2015, Mick Maytum mjmay...@gmail.com writes: It would be nice to find a lower cost drawing package with a correctly drawn symbol set. Check out DraftSight? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams
We have been using AutoCAD light as our company standard for schematics and wiring diagrams for many years (hence the reason for the question) so there's no additional investment needed for that. We use other non-AutoCAD packages for mechanical (3-D) design. And we use DraftSight as a viewer for AutoCAD files. I agree Visio is pretty week for real electrical engineering work, I use it for a quick sketch now and then as I haven't used AutoCAD myself. Thanks. -Dave -Original Message- From: Mick Maytum [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 7:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Cc: Nyffenegger, Dave Subject: Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams Having worked in many US standards development organisations (SDOs) I would tend to describe their attitude as parochial. This is partly because the working groups are mainly made up of US people who have not been exposed to the international scene. On the face of it the 315/315A must be trustworthy as it is also ANSI Y32.2, CSA Z99 and references the IEC! I wonder if the IEEE Standards Coordinating Committee 11, Graphic Symbols, which created 315/315A, is even still functioning - it certainly hasn't filed a mandatory Polices and Procedures document at the IEEE AudCom site. I regard 315/315A as of historical interest to show where we started out from and not where we are today. As to your second question, yes you can get IEC 60617 compliant AutoCAD libraries. I have previously used AutoCAD, but it is expensive software with a steep learning curve. I think you have to use it extensively to justify the investment. It would be nice to find a lower cost drawing package with a correctly drawn symbol set. I can remember being disappointed with the Visio offering. Even at the fundamental level it was wrong with the resistor symbol rectangle having a side 2.5:1 ratio instead of the IEC 60617 ratio of 3.0:1. Regards Mick On 17/01/2015 22:57, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote: Mick, Care to guess why NFPA 79 2015 (not to mention ANSI Y14) still refers to the older IEEE standard while at the same time tries to harmonize with EN 60204-1 (Requirements align with IEC 60204-1)?Perhaps a not invented here syndrome? Although IEEE USA. Sounds like I should not bother with the IEEE standards. Interestingly my next question (not necessarily to PSES) was/is if there are (correct) IEC 60617 symbol libraries for AutoCAD. That would perhaps eliminate the need for the subscription since that's primarily what we need the symbols for anyway. Thanks -Dave -Original Message- From: Mick Maytum [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 5:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Cc: Nyffenegger, Dave Subject: Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams David, I am familiar with IEEE Std 315, IEEE Std 315A (supplement) and the IEC 60617 database. The 315 was created in 1975 and the 315A in 1986. These documents show some symbols with an over and under lined IEC label. At the time of creation the IEC reference was to the symbols in IEC publication 117. At the beginning of the 1980s IEC Publication 117: Recommended graphical symbols was replaced by Publication 617. Another ten years on and Publication 617 was replaced by IEC 60617. Many of the 315 and 315A document symbols no longer match what is in the current IEC 60617 database. For example the IEEE Std shows two IEC options for a resistor; a zig-zag line or a rectangle. Look in IEC 60617 and you find the zig zag resistor symbol (ref. S01355) was made obsolete in 1996-06 being replaced by the rectangle symbol (ref. S00555). There are many other symbol instances where the 315/315A are out of date compared to IEC 60617. The frustration with both the IEEE and IEC documents is that all the symbols are bit maps meaning you have to create your own vector versions or buy vector versions elsewhere. A years subscription to the IEC 60617 is expensive if you just want to check what is available. An alternative is to Google commercial libraries for CAD software as these will often have thumbnails of the symbols available. Just because a well-known vendor offers a set of IEC 60617 symbols doesn't mean they are drawn correctly either. The Autodesk Knowledge network does give you (fuzzy) previews of various symbol sets. You could have a stab in the dark and Google something like IEC60617 Symbols.pdf in the hope of getting a PDF file listing the symbols. Regards Mick On 13/01/2015 19:06, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote: Hi folks, Anyone familiar with in IEC 60617-DB:2001 and IEEE 315/315A? Perhaps the older IEEE standards are just a subset of the newer IEC standard? -Dave -Original Message- From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015 12:05 AM To: EMC-PSTC
Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams
David, I am familiar with IEEE Std 315, IEEE Std 315A (supplement) and the IEC 60617 database. The 315 was created in 1975 and the 315A in 1986. These documents show some symbols with an over and under lined IEC label. At the time of creation the IEC reference was to the symbols in IEC publication 117. At the beginning of the 1980s IEC Publication 117: Recommended graphical symbols was replaced by Publication 617. Another ten years on and Publication 617 was replaced by IEC 60617. Many of the 315 and 315A document symbols no longer match what is in the current IEC 60617 database. For example the IEEE Std shows two IEC options for a resistor; a zig-zag line or a rectangle. Look in IEC 60617 and you find the zig zag resistor symbol (ref. S01355) was made obsolete in 1996-06 being replaced by the rectangle symbol (ref. S00555). There are many other symbol instances where the 315/315A are out of date compared to IEC 60617. The frustration with both the IEEE and IEC documents is that all the symbols are bit maps meaning you have to create your own vector versions or buy vector versions elsewhere. A years subscription to the IEC 60617 is expensive if you just want to check what is available. An alternative is to Google commercial libraries for CAD software as these will often have thumbnails of the symbols available. Just because a well-known vendor offers a set of IEC 60617 symbols doesn't mean they are drawn correctly either. The Autodesk Knowledge network does give you (fuzzy) previews of various symbol sets. You could have a stab in the dark and Google something like IEC60617 Symbols.pdf in the hope of getting a PDF file listing the symbols. Regards Mick On 13/01/2015 19:06, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote: Hi folks, Anyone familiar with in IEC 60617-DB:2001 and IEEE 315/315A? Perhaps the older IEEE standards are just a subset of the newer IEC standard? -Dave -Original Message- From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015 12:05 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams Hi Folks, EN 60204-1 section 17.6 says Any graphical symbol not shown in IEC 60617-DB:2001 shall be separately shown and described on the diagrams or supporting documents. NFPA 79 is harmonizing to EN 60204 and 17.7.1 has similar language but refers to IEEE 315/315A. I don't have either symbol standard yet and IEC 60717 is only available by subscription to online dB. The IEEE standards have been around for quite a while. I'm wondering how similar the symbols are between IEC 60617 and IEEE 315, anybody know? I can buy a copy of IEEE 315 for a reasonable price and I'm wondering if there is any additional need for the IEC 60617. One would hope that a common set of symbols would be acceptable in the US and Europe. Also, does anyone know what the restrictions are on the IEEE standard PDF files? i.e. on one end of the spectrum with only a watermark and the other end node locked to a single PC, can't print or can only print 1 copy ever, can't move to another PC when the original goes south without divine intervention, making the PDF pretty much useless etc? Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list
Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams
Mick, Care to guess why NFPA 79 2015 (not to mention ANSI Y14) still refers to the older IEEE standard while at the same time tries to harmonize with EN 60204-1 (Requirements align with IEC 60204-1)?Perhaps a not invented here syndrome? Although IEEE USA. Sounds like I should not bother with the IEEE standards. Interestingly my next question (not necessarily to PSES) was/is if there are (correct) IEC 60617 symbol libraries for AutoCAD. That would perhaps eliminate the need for the subscription since that's primarily what we need the symbols for anyway. Thanks -Dave -Original Message- From: Mick Maytum [mailto:mjmay...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 5:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Cc: Nyffenegger, Dave Subject: Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams David, I am familiar with IEEE Std 315, IEEE Std 315A (supplement) and the IEC 60617 database. The 315 was created in 1975 and the 315A in 1986. These documents show some symbols with an over and under lined IEC label. At the time of creation the IEC reference was to the symbols in IEC publication 117. At the beginning of the 1980s IEC Publication 117: Recommended graphical symbols was replaced by Publication 617. Another ten years on and Publication 617 was replaced by IEC 60617. Many of the 315 and 315A document symbols no longer match what is in the current IEC 60617 database. For example the IEEE Std shows two IEC options for a resistor; a zig-zag line or a rectangle. Look in IEC 60617 and you find the zig zag resistor symbol (ref. S01355) was made obsolete in 1996-06 being replaced by the rectangle symbol (ref. S00555). There are many other symbol instances where the 315/315A are out of date compared to IEC 60617. The frustration with both the IEEE and IEC documents is that all the symbols are bit maps meaning you have to create your own vector versions or buy vector versions elsewhere. A years subscription to the IEC 60617 is expensive if you just want to check what is available. An alternative is to Google commercial libraries for CAD software as these will often have thumbnails of the symbols available. Just because a well-known vendor offers a set of IEC 60617 symbols doesn't mean they are drawn correctly either. The Autodesk Knowledge network does give you (fuzzy) previews of various symbol sets. You could have a stab in the dark and Google something like IEC60617 Symbols.pdf in the hope of getting a PDF file listing the symbols. Regards Mick On 13/01/2015 19:06, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote: Hi folks, Anyone familiar with in IEC 60617-DB:2001 and IEEE 315/315A? Perhaps the older IEEE standards are just a subset of the newer IEC standard? -Dave -Original Message- From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015 12:05 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams Hi Folks, EN 60204-1 section 17.6 says Any graphical symbol not shown in IEC 60617-DB:2001 shall be separately shown and described on the diagrams or supporting documents. NFPA 79 is harmonizing to EN 60204 and 17.7.1 has similar language but refers to IEEE 315/315A. I don't have either symbol standard yet and IEC 60717 is only available by subscription to online dB. The IEEE standards have been around for quite a while. I'm wondering how similar the symbols are between IEC 60617 and IEEE 315, anybody know? I can buy a copy of IEEE 315 for a reasonable price and I'm wondering if there is any additional need for the IEC 60617. One would hope that a common set of symbols would be acceptable in the US and Europe. Also, does anyone know what the restrictions are on the IEEE standard PDF files? i.e. on one end of the spectrum with only a watermark and the other end node locked to a single PC, can't print or can only print 1 copy ever, can't move to another PC when the original goes south without divine intervention, making the PDF pretty much useless etc? Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas
Re: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams
Hi folks, Anyone familiar with in IEC 60617-DB:2001 and IEEE 315/315A? Perhaps the older IEEE standards are just a subset of the newer IEC standard? -Dave -Original Message- From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015 12:05 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams Hi Folks, EN 60204-1 section 17.6 says Any graphical symbol not shown in IEC 60617-DB:2001 shall be separately shown and described on the diagrams or supporting documents. NFPA 79 is harmonizing to EN 60204 and 17.7.1 has similar language but refers to IEEE 315/315A. I don't have either symbol standard yet and IEC 60717 is only available by subscription to online dB. The IEEE standards have been around for quite a while. I'm wondering how similar the symbols are between IEC 60617 and IEEE 315, anybody know? I can buy a copy of IEEE 315 for a reasonable price and I'm wondering if there is any additional need for the IEC 60617. One would hope that a common set of symbols would be acceptable in the US and Europe. Also, does anyone know what the restrictions are on the IEEE standard PDF files? i.e. on one end of the spectrum with only a watermark and the other end node locked to a single PC, can't print or can only print 1 copy ever, can't move to another PC when the original goes south without divine intervention, making the PDF pretty much useless etc? Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams
Hi Folks, EN 60204-1 section 17.6 says Any graphical symbol not shown in IEC 60617-DB:2001 shall be separately shown and described on the diagrams or supporting documents. NFPA 79 is harmonizing to EN 60204 and 17.7.1 has similar language but refers to IEEE 315/315A. I don't have either symbol standard yet and IEC 60717 is only available by subscription to online dB. The IEEE standards have been around for quite a while. I'm wondering how similar the symbols are between IEC 60617 and IEEE 315, anybody know? I can buy a copy of IEEE 315 for a reasonable price and I'm wondering if there is any additional need for the IEC 60617. One would hope that a common set of symbols would be acceptable in the US and Europe. Also, does anyone know what the restrictions are on the IEEE standard PDF files? i.e. on one end of the spectrum with only a watermark and the other end node locked to a single PC, can't print or can only print 1 copy ever, can't move to another PC when the original goes south without divine intervention, making the PDF pretty much useless etc? Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
