subject:"\[PSES\] List of Common Misuses"

Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-10 Thread Brian Kunde

Exactly.  Exactly.  Exactly.

We work hard to make sure our products are safe in a normal and fault
condition and in every possible way.  The only MisUse we can list is if the
User doesn't keep the instrument clean or remember to clean/change the air
filters, but even then, we do tests to make sure these misuses will not
cause a hazardous condition.  So I am lost when we are asked to provide
more possible MisUses.

I guess I was hoping to find a generic list of misuses that could apply to
most any complex electrical device.

How can you list unforeseen misuses when they are unforeseen? As soon as
you realize it is unforeseen, it becomes foreseen, so it is no longer
unforeseen. yuck yuck.

Thanks for all the good responses. Very interesting.  Enjoy your week.

The Other Brian

On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 5:58 PM Richard Nute  wrote:

>
>
> Misuse is using a product for a use which is not a normal use.  An example
> is using a chair (which is for sitting) as a stool.  Or, using a
> screwdriver for prying.  Or using a hammer for breaking concrete.  Each of
> these misuses can lead to injury.
>
>
>
> Identifying misuse for a TV, a laptop, or a printer is much harder, if not
> impractical.
>
>
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Charlie Blackham 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 5, 2022 1:18 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses
>
>
>
> I’m not a lawyer, or from the USA, but in Europe the term “misuse” has
> been discussed in various REDCA (Radio Equipment Directive Compliance
> Association) Meetings with Notified Bodies and The EU Commission, and their
> view is that there’s no such thing as “misuse”, it’s just “use”.
>
>
>
> Drawing up a list of possible “misuses” is ultimately futile, as where do
> you draw the line – user manuals instructions telling you not to use a
> telephone in the bath morph into statements telling you not to use a PBX in
> the bath.
>
>
>
> My suspicion as an Engineer, is that some companies want great long lists
> of “do not do X” in the manual as some form of defence against mitigation
> by Darwin Awards nominees – but then you finish up with a manual so big
> that no one reads it anyway
>
>
>
> Just my 2p / 2c
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
> *Charlie Blackham*
>
> *Sulis Consultants Ltd*
>
> *Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317*
>
> *Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ <https://sulisconsultants.com/> *
>
> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>
>
>
> *From:* MIKE SHERMAN 
> *Sent:* 05 October 2022 19:09
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses
>
>
>
> Brian --
>
>
>
> Good to hear from you!
>
>
>
> Re your question, it is not clear who the "they" is who is requesting a
> list of misuses.
>
>
>
> From my working experience, we (on advice of Legal) usually did not try to
> compile a list of misuses in the operating manual, on the theory that if a
> creative user found another (dangerous) misuse that was not on our list,
> they might conclude that it must be safe because it wasn't on our misuse
> list. We emphasized how to use our equipment correctly, and what the scope
> of its applications were.
>
>
>
> However, we would clearly identify in some warnings what not to do where
> we perceived that to be a foreseeable misuse.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Mike Sherman
>
> Sherman PSC LLC
>
> On 10/05/2022 1:01 PM Brian Kunde  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> My company manufactures Laboratory Equipment such as analyzers and
> determinators. They are highly specialized equipment, yet have an infinite
> range of uses.
>
>
>
> Even though all known residual risks are documented in the Safety Warning
> section of the manual, they will commonly request a list of Misuses.  There
> are no buttons, or settings that can be changed by the User that can cause
> a hazard.  The operational environment is clearly defined. So in most all
> cases, I am not aware of any "Misuse" that can cause a hazard. For some
> reason, this answer is not acceptable.  We are expected to come up with
> something.
>
>
>
> Is there a standard or common list of MisUses that seem to satisfy this
> requirement?
>
>
>
> How crazy are we to get with this?, e.g., don't use the 400lb analyzer
> while taking a bath?  Don't use it to mow your lawn?  Common
>
>
>
> I used to work for a computer company and I couldn't believe the stupid
> warnings we had to put in the manual.
>
>
>
> Thanks to all.
>
>
>
> The Other Brian
>
> -
>

Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-06 Thread Michael Viau

Personally, I’d accept an answer to this request in the form of how the equipment is designed to prevent an operator from misusing it. Like how plugs (US) are designed with a long lead and a short lead to prevent you from hooking them up “backwards”. Most connectors are built that way too now.  If software flags a warning when you press the wrong button is another example. And if you have an equipment qualification program, i’d want to know that, without all the details exactly. The list of all the ways one can misuse equipment is 1000 times longer than the list of the ways they should be using it for a given application. But there are definitely steps you can skip in a detailed procedure where you can blow a fuse or hurt someone, so I’d want it to know where those steps are so that additional warning labels can be slapped on them. As someone who asks these types of questions a lot… all I’m ever looking for is to verify that the right people actually took the time to think it through. No one could possibly expect an exhaustive list. Sent from my iPhoneOn Oct 6, 2022, at 3:35 AM, John Woodgate  wrote:
  

  
  
Hi, Gert. I think the third term should be
'unavoidability', because if avoidability were perfect, i.e.  =
1 or 100 %, the risk would be zero. 

==
  Best wishes
  John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
  www.woodjohn.uk
  Rayleigh, Essex UK
  It all depends
  
  
  

On 2022-10-06 06:58, Gert Gremmen
  wrote:

 A risk
  analysis (risk = chance*severeness*avoid-ability) 
  

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Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-06 Thread John Woodgate

Hi, Gert. I think the third term should be 'unavoidability', because if 
avoidability were perfect, i.e.  = 1 or 100 %, the risk would be zero.


==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
It all depends



On 2022-10-06 06:58, Gert Gremmen wrote:
A risk analysis (risk = chance*severeness*avoid-ability) 


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Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-05 Thread Gert Gremmen


'Misuse' is the negative of 'use', or as Mike correctly made a suggestion:

"We emphasized how to use our equipment correctly, and what the scope of 
its applications were."


The better you describe the positive, the easier it is to define the 
negative.


I have seen  many operating manuals (such  as garden equipment) even 
lacking the 'positive' ie the "intentional use" of equipment. How to 
define any misuse in such a case ?



In the standardization world 3 descriptions are used

 * Intended use - a decent description of this will automatically
   define all misuses, as not addressed in the intended use description
 * Foreseeable (mis)use
 * Unforeseeable (mis)use

The foreseeable category is the one the manufacturer shall be concerned 
with. Some equipment that is able to cut grass, can be foreseeably be 
misused in many cutting applications it was not meant for. The cutting 
can be applied to not suitable materials, the lawn mower may be misused 
to attack a meadow, or your dogs long hair. (not even suggesting your 
wife's hair). A risk analysis (risk = chance*severeness*avoid-ability) 
may help in ranking misuses and the manufacture shall define the 3 risk 
thresholds were 'physical measures' (annihilating the danger) are needed 
or "warning on the equipment" or just  "warnings in the manual"  may do 
in mitigating the hazard. Some standards have specific requirements on 
these. Risk analysis shall include as many parties as the manufacturer 
can contact, such as engineers, production workers, customers, laymen 
and others that can get in contact with your product. Do not only 
consider the operating state, but also transport, repair work, storage, 
loss of coordination between manual, product and software version 
(button changed color), or even batch or serial numbering.  No risk 
shall be considered to be too small not to be included in the analysis. 
The difference is in how the risks are addressed. This will avoid having 
a too extensive safety warning section, and at the same time the 
requirements of any auditor.


Just my 2 cents.

Gert Gremmen

On 5-10-2022 20:01, Brian Kunde wrote:
My company manufactures Laboratory Equipment such as analyzers and 
determinators. They are highly specialized equipment, yet have an 
infinite range of uses.


Even though all known residual risks are documented in the Safety 
Warning section of the manual, they will commonly request a list of 
Misuses.  There are no buttons, or settings that can be changed by the 
User that can cause a hazard.  The operational environment is clearly 
defined. So in most all cases, I am not aware of any "Misuse" that can 
cause a hazard. For some reason, this answer is not acceptable.  We 
are expected to come up with something.


Is there a standard or common list of MisUses that seem to satisfy 
this requirement?


How crazy are we to get with this?, e.g., don't use the 400lb analyzer 
while taking a bath?  Don't use it to mow your lawn?  Common


I used to work for a computer company and I couldn't believe the 
stupid warnings we had to put in the manual.


Thanks to all.

The Other Brian
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--
Independent Expert on CE marking
EMC Consultant
Electrical Safety Consultant

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Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-05 Thread David Nyffenegger

Brian,

Sounds like a NRTL engineer is asking for possible misuses whether or not
they may result in a hazard.  And perhaps this is just to ensure that
misuses have been considered and can be included in the listing report, to
satisfy the internal report reviewers, or their certifying auditors, not
necessarily to be listed in the operating manual.  For example, it could be
a misuse to sit the 400lb analyzer precariously on top of a sawhorse where
it may fall over, or on a 25lb rated plastic table, or plugged into an
underrated extension cord run across the floor.

-Dave


On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 2:01 PM Brian Kunde  wrote:

> My company manufactures Laboratory Equipment such as analyzers and
> determinators. They are highly specialized equipment, yet have an infinite
> range of uses.
>
> Even though all known residual risks are documented in the Safety Warning
> section of the manual, they will commonly request a list of Misuses.  There
> are no buttons, or settings that can be changed by the User that can cause
> a hazard.  The operational environment is clearly defined. So in most all
> cases, I am not aware of any "Misuse" that can cause a hazard. For some
> reason, this answer is not acceptable.  We are expected to come up with
> something.
>
> Is there a standard or common list of MisUses that seem to satisfy this
> requirement?
>
> How crazy are we to get with this?, e.g., don't use the 400lb analyzer
> while taking a bath?  Don't use it to mow your lawn?  Common
>
> I used to work for a computer company and I couldn't believe the stupid
> warnings we had to put in the manual.
>
> Thanks to all.
>
> The Other Brian
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
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>
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> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
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>
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Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-05 Thread Richard Nute

Misuse is using a product for a use which is not a normal use.  An example is 
using a chair (which is for sitting) as a stool.  Or, using a screwdriver for 
prying.  Or using a hammer for breaking concrete.  Each of these misuses can 
lead to injury.

Identifying misuse for a TV, a laptop, or a printer is much harder, if not 
impractical.  

Rich

From: Charlie Blackham  
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2022 1:18 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

I’m not a lawyer, or from the USA, but in Europe the term “misuse” has been 
discussed in various REDCA (Radio Equipment Directive Compliance Association) 
Meetings with Notified Bodies and The EU Commission, and their view is that 
there’s no such thing as “misuse”, it’s just “use”.

Drawing up a list of possible “misuses” is ultimately futile, as where do you 
draw the line – user manuals instructions telling you not to use a telephone in 
the bath morph into statements telling you not to use a PBX in the bath.

My suspicion as an Engineer, is that some companies want great long lists of 
“do not do X” in the manual as some form of defence against mitigation by 
Darwin Awards nominees – but then you finish up with a manual so big that no 
one reads it anyway

Just my 2p / 2c

Best regards

Charlie

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ 

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: MIKE SHERMAN mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> > 
Sent: 05 October 2022 19:09
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

Brian -- 

Good to hear from you! 

Re your question, it is not clear who the "they" is who is requesting a list of 
misuses. 

>From my working experience, we (on advice of Legal) usually did not try to 
>compile a list of misuses in the operating manual, on the theory that if a 
>creative user found another (dangerous) misuse that was not on our list, they 
>might conclude that it must be safe because it wasn't on our misuse list. We 
>emphasized how to use our equipment correctly, and what the scope of its 
>applications were. 

However, we would clearly identify in some warnings what not to do where we 
perceived that to be a foreseeable misuse. 

Hope this helps!

Mike Sherman 

Sherman PSC LLC 

On 10/05/2022 1:01 PM Brian Kunde mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com> > wrote: 

My company manufactures Laboratory Equipment such as analyzers and 
determinators. They are highly specialized equipment, yet have an infinite 
range of uses.   

Even though all known residual risks are documented in the Safety Warning 
section of the manual, they will commonly request a list of Misuses.  There are 
no buttons, or settings that can be changed by the User that can cause a 
hazard.  The operational environment is clearly defined. So in most all cases, 
I am not aware of any "Misuse" that can cause a hazard. For some reason, this 
answer is not acceptable.  We are expected to come up with something.   

Is there a standard or common list of MisUses that seem to satisfy this 
requirement? 

How crazy are we to get with this?, e.g., don't use the 400lb analyzer while 
taking a bath?  Don't use it to mow your lawn?  Common 

I used to work for a computer company and I couldn't believe the stupid 
warnings we had to put in the manual.   

Thanks to all. 

The Other Brian 

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Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-05 Thread John Woodgate

It's not being replaced, it has been replaced for more than 40 years, in 
the field of safety of electrical goods. Manufacturers have an 
'unassignable responsibility' to offer only safe products. But, as with 
many other things these days, the matter has been enlarged by relentless 
logic to embrace an infinity of philosophical issues, mostly 
unresolvable. The result is that it is no longer acceptable to say that 
nothing is foolproof because Nature keeps breeding more and more 
ingenious fools, even though it's true.



==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
It all depends



On 2022-10-05 21:52, Douglas E Powell wrote:
It may seem cynical but in my view "Caveat emptor" is becoming 
obsolete and it is being replaced by "Caveat-venditor".


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Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-05 Thread Douglas E Powell

You might put in a few obvious answers, like do not connect to power of the
incorrect voltage, not for household use, or some such thing.  I tend to
agree with you, I've had clients get a little crazy dreaming up "what if"
scenarios, like what if a forklift crashes into?  or a terrorist fires a 50
cal. at it?  Yes, those were real questions, I've been asked.

When I first started in safety engineering years ago, I was told that
equipment should be safe to use for anyone who comes in contact with it,
trained or untrained, normal operation or single fault, up to but not
incldueding people with suicidal intentions.

I have on occasion used the phrase "*no reasonably foreseeable hazards
identified"*, just to fill in the blank on the form.  And of course,
"reasonably foreseeable" is only defined in some standards I've worked
with, and even then the definition is rather vague, referring to other than
the supplier's intended use. It may seem cynical but in my view "Caveat
emptor" is becoming obsolete and it is being replaced by "Caveat-venditor".

-Doug

Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
LinkedIn 

(UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT)

On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 12:01 PM Brian Kunde  wrote:

> My company manufactures Laboratory Equipment such as analyzers and
> determinators. They are highly specialized equipment, yet have an infinite
> range of uses.
>
> Even though all known residual risks are documented in the Safety Warning
> section of the manual, they will commonly request a list of Misuses.  There
> are no buttons, or settings that can be changed by the User that can cause
> a hazard.  The operational environment is clearly defined. So in most all
> cases, I am not aware of any "Misuse" that can cause a hazard. For some
> reason, this answer is not acceptable.  We are expected to come up with
> something.
>
> Is there a standard or common list of MisUses that seem to satisfy this
> requirement?
>
> How crazy are we to get with this?, e.g., don't use the 400lb analyzer
> while taking a bath?  Don't use it to mow your lawn?  Common
>
> I used to work for a computer company and I couldn't believe the stupid
> warnings we had to put in the manual.
>
> Thanks to all.
>
> The Other Brian
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-05 Thread Charlie Blackham

I’m not a lawyer, or from the USA, but in Europe the term “misuse” has been 
discussed in various REDCA (Radio Equipment Directive Compliance Association) 
Meetings with Notified Bodies and The EU Commission, and their view is that 
there’s no such thing as “misuse”, it’s just “use”.

Drawing up a list of possible “misuses” is ultimately futile, as where do you 
draw the line – user manuals instructions telling you not to use a telephone in 
the bath morph into statements telling you not to use a PBX in the bath.

My suspicion as an Engineer, is that some companies want great long lists of 
“do not do X” in the manual as some form of defence against mitigation by 
Darwin Awards nominees – but then you finish up with a manual so big that no 
one reads it anyway

Just my 2p / 2c

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: MIKE SHERMAN 
Sent: 05 October 2022 19:09
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

Brian --

Good to hear from you!

Re your question, it is not clear who the "they" is who is requesting a list of 
misuses.

From my working experience, we (on advice of Legal) usually did not try to 
compile a list of misuses in the operating manual, on the theory that if a 
creative user found another (dangerous) misuse that was not on our list, they 
might conclude that it must be safe because it wasn't on our misuse list. We 
emphasized how to use our equipment correctly, and what the scope of its 
applications were.

However, we would clearly identify in some warnings what not to do where we 
perceived that to be a foreseeable misuse.

Hope this helps!

Mike Sherman
Sherman PSC LLC
On 10/05/2022 1:01 PM Brian Kunde 
mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com>> wrote:


My company manufactures Laboratory Equipment such as analyzers and 
determinators. They are highly specialized equipment, yet have an infinite 
range of uses.

Even though all known residual risks are documented in the Safety Warning 
section of the manual, they will commonly request a list of Misuses.  There are 
no buttons, or settings that can be changed by the User that can cause a 
hazard.  The operational environment is clearly defined. So in most all cases, 
I am not aware of any "Misuse" that can cause a hazard. For some reason, this 
answer is not acceptable.  We are expected to come up with something.

Is there a standard or common list of MisUses that seem to satisfy this 
requirement?

How crazy are we to get with this?, e.g., don't use the 400lb analyzer while 
taking a bath?  Don't use it to mow your lawn?  Common

I used to work for a computer company and I couldn't believe the stupid 
warnings we had to put in the manual.

Thanks to all.

The Other Brian
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Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-05 Thread MIKE SHERMAN

Brian --

Good to hear from you!

Re your question, it is not clear who the "they" is who is requesting a list of 
misuses.

>From my working experience, we (on advice of Legal) usually did not try to 
>compile a list of misuses in the operating manual, on the theory that if a 
>creative user found another (dangerous) misuse that was not on our list, they 
>might conclude that it must be safe because it wasn't on our misuse list. We 
>emphasized how to use our equipment correctly, and what the scope of its 
>applications were.

However, we would clearly identify in some warnings what not to do where we 
perceived that to be a foreseeable misuse.

Hope this helps!

Mike Sherman
Sherman PSC LLC

> On 10/05/2022 1:01 PM Brian Kunde  wrote:
> 
> 
> My company manufactures Laboratory Equipment such as analyzers and 
> determinators. They are highly specialized equipment, yet have an infinite 
> range of uses.  
> 
> Even though all known residual risks are documented in the Safety Warning 
> section of the manual, they will commonly request a list of Misuses.  There 
> are no buttons, or settings that can be changed by the User that can cause a 
> hazard.  The operational environment is clearly defined. So in most all 
> cases, I am not aware of any "Misuse" that can cause a hazard. For some 
> reason, this answer is not acceptable.  We are expected to come up with 
> something.  
> 
> Is there a standard or common list of MisUses that seem to satisfy this 
> requirement?
> 
> How crazy are we to get with this?, e.g., don't use the 400lb analyzer 
> while taking a bath?  Don't use it to mow your lawn?  Common
> 
> I used to work for a computer company and I couldn't believe the stupid 
> warnings we had to put in the manual.  
> 
> Thanks to all.
> 
> The Other Brian
> -
> 
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org >
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> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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[PSES] List of Common Misuses

2022-10-05 Thread Brian Kunde

My company manufactures Laboratory Equipment such as analyzers and
determinators. They are highly specialized equipment, yet have an infinite
range of uses.

Even though all known residual risks are documented in the Safety Warning
section of the manual, they will commonly request a list of Misuses.  There
are no buttons, or settings that can be changed by the User that can cause
a hazard.  The operational environment is clearly defined. So in most all
cases, I am not aware of any "Misuse" that can cause a hazard. For some
reason, this answer is not acceptable.  We are expected to come up with
something.

Is there a standard or common list of MisUses that seem to satisfy this
requirement?

How crazy are we to get with this?, e.g., don't use the 400lb analyzer
while taking a bath?  Don't use it to mow your lawn?  Common

I used to work for a computer company and I couldn't believe the stupid
warnings we had to put in the manual.

Thanks to all.

The Other Brian

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Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

Re: [PSES] List of Common Misuses

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[PSES] List of Common Misuses

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